Taqlid in the time of Sahaba.

[MuhammadHamza1]

[4] Shaikh Salih al-Sunusi writes in Fath al-‘Alee al-Malik fil-Fatwa ‘ala madh-hab al-Imam Malik:

“As for the scholar who has not reached the level of ijtihād and the non-scholar, they must do taqlīd of the Mujtahid… And the most correct view is that it is obligatory (wajib) to adhere to a particular school from the four schools…” (p.40-41, in Usul al-Fiqh)

This is what I have been saying.When one reaches the level that he can do ijtihad,there is no need for him to do Taqleed.

- - - Updated - - -

Our position is clear.
https://islamqa.info/en/21420

- - - Updated - - -

And this.
http://www.spubs.com/sps/sp.cfm?subsecID=MNJ06&articleID=MNJ060006&articlePages=1

 

[azc]

This is what I have been saying.When one reaches the level that he can do ijtihad,there is no need for him to do Taqleed.

- - - Updated - - -

Our position is clear.
https://islamqa.info/en/21420

- - - Updated - - -

And this.
http://www.spubs.com/sps/sp.cfm?subsecID=MNJ06&articleID=MNJ060006&articlePages=1

are you a mujtahid......?

Even all the scholars aren't mujtahid.....

Do you know that level of ijtihad are also different based on level of qualifications...?

we have the rule that in case of a hadith, the view of the Jamhoor or majority of the Muhadiseen is accepted. Not one Muhadith. In which case you would have called it Taqlid but not when the veiw of MAjority is taken.

Now tell me what the majority of imams of different Islamic sciences say about taqlid of 4 imams...?

In the entire Islamic history we have no famous personality who ever objected on taqlid or stopped the people from following 4 imams.

If you haven't read history then read, you will see only shia, mutazila and other deviant sects prior to ahle zawahir like ibn hazm, qazi shawkani besides ibn qayyim etc questioned on this matter. And even then, they were in minority.

So here, do you accept the decision of majority or not...?

 

[azc]

Levels of Hanafi Fuqaha and Scholars:

1. Mujtahidin fil Shar’a– These are those who don’t follow any other mujtahids and are the source of methods and principles to be followed by others.
These include the likes of Imam Abu Hanifah, Imam Malik ibn Ans, Imam Muhammad bin Idris Shaf’i, Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal [may Allah have mercy on them], etc.

2. Mujtahidin fil madhab– These are those who have the capability of deriving ruling (ijtihad) from the sources of Shari’a and even though they disagree with mujtahideen fil shara on certain matters but in principle (usool) they are in conformity with them.
These include the likes of Imam Abu Yusuf and Imam Muhammad bin Hassan al-Shaybani [may Allah have mercy on them].

3. Mujtahidin fil Masail– These are those who derive ruling (ijtihad) in those issues (masail) regarding which there is no report from mujtahideen of the school.
These are the likes of Imam Kashaf, Imam Tawahi, Shams al-Ai’ma Abul Hassan Karkhi, Shams al-Ai’ma Halawai, Shams al-Ai’ma Sarakhsi, Imam Bazdawi, Imam Qadi Khan [may Allah have mercy on them], etc.

4. Ashab Takhrij– This group does not have authority for ijtihad. They just clarify what are not clear in their school books based on other texts of their imams .They very rarely draw some rulings from the nas, when there is none.
Example of this level would be Imam Bazzazi, Imam Abu Bakr al- Jassas and Abu Abd Allah al-Jurjani [may Allah have mercy on them].

5. Ashab Tarjih– This group distinguishes between different narrations within the madhab and decide on those opinions which are better and more accurate than the others among the opinions and reports made in their school.
Example of these would be Imam Marghinani [author of Hidaya], Imam Abul Hassan Ahmad Qudoori, Muhaqqiq mutlaq Imam bin Humam [may Allah have mercy on them], etc.

6. Ashab Tamyiz– This level of muqallid scholars are able to distinguish between strong and weak opinions within the school as well as Zahir al-Riwayah and Nawadir.

They include the likes of Imam Abul Fadl Abdullah bin Mahmud [author of Mukhtar], Taaj al-Sharia Mahmud Mahbubi al-Bukhari [author of Wiqaya], Imam Muzaffaruddin Ahmad bin Ali [author of Majma al-Bahrain], Imam Abul Barakaat al-Nasafi [author of Kanz], as well as Imam ibn Nujaym al-Hanafi [may Allah have mercy on them all].

7. SimplyMuqallids– These are those who simply memorized the majority of the hukms and problems and their solutions in their schools of thought.
Many faqihs after 800 A.H. are in this group such as Allamah Ibn `Abidin [may Allah have mercy on him].

Taken from Majuma al-Fatawa of ‘Allamah Abd al-Hayy Lakhnawi and Usul al-Fiqh of Dr. Yusuf Ziya Kavakci.
.......

Shafi’i Classification:

Imam al-Nawawi, Imam Jalal al-Din al-Suyuti, Ibn Hajar al-Makki [may Allah have mercy on them] and other Shafi`i scholars classified the faqihs in the following manner:

1. Mujtahid al-Mutlaq:
a. Mustaqil: He is a mujtahid in Shari`a.The leaders of the four madhabs belong to this classisfication and are experts in their fields.

b. Muntasib: He is free in the madhab. He follows the methodology of his School, but is free in al-furu’ ( detailed issues of fiqh).
They include the likes of Imam al-Qaffalal-Saghir, Imam al- Haramain, Imam Ghazzali, Imam Abu Ishaq al-Shirazi, Imam Abu Ali al-Marwazi [may Allah have mercy on them].

2. Mujtahid al-Muqayyad:

a. Mujtahidin madhhab: They make ijtihad only in their madhabs.

b. Mujtahid fi ‘l-Fatwa: This group of mujtahids are those who give fatwa by preferring one of the opinions expressed in their madhab. Shafites do not come down to accept the other levels of scholars as faqihs.......
https://sunnahmuakada.wordpress.com...atawa-are-made/?_e_pi_=7,PAGE_ID10,9099212860

 

[Abz2000]

I believe that people are obligated to follow what they believe is true and who they believe is being honest with them until there is trusted authority that is able to enforce a just and current standard. Or else their arguments have no more force with the people than that of the various debaters at hyde park corner.

Anyways, it's usually the imams such as ibn taymiyyah who went through different schools of thought until content that they were nearest to what they believed to be the most correct and truthful way.
Salman al Phaarisee is a good example of a person who kept an inquisitive mind and was ready to listen.

 

[azc]

I believe that people are obligated to follow what they believe is true and who they believe is being honest with them until there is trusted authority that is able to enforce a just and current standard. Or else their arguments have no more force with the people than that of the various debaters at hyde park corner.

Anyways, it's usually the imams such as ibn taymiyyah who went through different schools of thought until content that they were nearest to what they believed to be the most correct and truthful way.
Salman al Phaarisee is a good example who kept an inquisitive mind and was ready to listen.

Whether or not you follow 4 madhab or any particular group of scholars or do self study to follow this deen is entirely your personal matter but the ages long tradition of ummah can't be challenged by us, the random people who aren't even scholars.

Ibn taimiyya himself was a mujtahid.

 

[Abz2000]

Whether or not you follow 4 madhab or any particular group of scholars or do self study to follow this deen is entirely your personal matter but the ages long tradition of ummah can't be challenged by us, the random people who aren't even scholars.

Ibn taimiyya himself was a mujtahid.

How then did this "ages long tradition" give way to secular wavesurfing? Can we accept the fact that there was stagnation and lack of will to keep hiring new judges, jurists, and lawyers who were respected as the four imams were in their time when caliphs, monarchs, and governers took their counsel and usually rubber-stamped their opinions into law books.

Are all the youth of today to be expected to uniformly accept a ruling (or choose an avatar to fuse with) because it was made by a wise person who interpreted Islam over a thousand years ago according to the knowledge he had access to - or because all knowledge we can sift is regularly being sifted and interpreted by trustworthy and knowledgeable scholars who live and rule under Allah's shade - even if they come to the conclusion in any given situation that the opinion of one of those four scholars was the best?
Also how can you convince anyone of the truth of your way if you tell them to rely only on the opinions of one person who interpreted what he could by Allah's leave centuries ago (would you not wonder loudly if someone from another way of life gave you that type of logic?)

The only seals set on their opinions were implemented by those in rulership authority when Adam's flesh and Adam's bone ruled by Allah's word from the throne :shade:

Allah never set any seal on their opinions and their opinions currently stand only as examples to be measured with the rule of truth.


We can see from the amounts invested in islamic schools (which is often minuscule in comparson to secular schools) that there is definitely a huge contrast between abu haneefa and ahmad ibn hanbal et al :ra: 's atmosphere and that experienced by students and scholars today. The caliph would consult them, request their presence at court debates and discussions, and rule according to the best opinion available, some were even lashed for their staunch loyalty to certain opinions and refusal to make public proclamations as puppets.

Depends heavily on what you mean by laymen or random people.

I believe ibn taymiyyah :ra: was - and a skilled one at that - although some passionately referred to him as "the heretic from Harraan"


Still - it's easier to follow one of the four when there's no just rulership to look up to and obey when we need to say "sami'naa wa atua'naa" - but it's also a testament to the sad situation we are in in that we follow them in the form of opinion alone and not ruling, since the ruling is usually administered by atheist rome and her "partners in "the" region".

It's a bit shocking isn't it that people of knowledge are dragged away by people of ignorance, but it's a logical outcome of a scenario where the knowledgeable person is restricted to providing legislation based on interpretation of truth by 2nd century jurists, whilst the ignorant one has fox news and other highly stimulating (in many ways) material blaring in the living rooms and minds of the jury who see the "U.S partner's" law as a living law and the concept of "king" and "blasphemy" has become a little blurred or is made to appear inverted to the perverted.

“Say: The angel of death, who is set over you, will take your souls. Then you shall be brought to your Lord.” [32:11]

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/...PCqdFNa8VedD5DTKxdH3nEB_sZr8dNjs_SWuwVNz-XB9S

Or was ya lookin' at da woman in da red dress???


13. Behold, Luqman said to his son by way of instruction: "O my son! join not in worship (others) with Allah. for false worship is indeed the highest wrong-doing."
14. And We have enjoined on man (to be good) to his parents: in travail upon travail did his mother bear him, and in years twain was his weaning: (hear the command), "Show gratitude to Me and to thy parents: to Me is (thy final) Goal.
15. "But if they strive to make thee join in worship with Me things of which thou hast no knowledge, obey them not; yet bear them company in this life with justice (and consideration), and follow the way of those who turn to me (in love): in the end the return of you all is to Me, and I will tell you the truth (and meaning) of all that ye did."
16. "O my son!" (said Luqman), "If there be (but) the weight of a mustard-seed and it were (hidden) in a rock, or (anywhere) in the heavens or on earth, Allah will bring it forth: for Allah understands the finest mysteries, (and) is well-acquainted (with them).

Think, will the four imams defeat the dajjal or will solid truth and adherence to it do so?
A flag for each imam? Who will join which imam's group? will there be a law for apostasy from one to the other to prevent opportunist bandwagon jumping?

Or maybe a flag for each of the rightly guided caliphs? Or each prophet, or nation? Muslims really don't have 80 different banners do they? They have one God and they unite, live, and die upon one word whenever they can and all the rest of the sects can melt away, dissolve completely, or go to hell.

Ans:
Shotto Tottobodayok

 

[MuhammadHamza1]

are you a mujtahid......?

Even all the scholars aren't mujtahid.....

Do you know that level of ijtihad are also different based on level of qualifications...?

I follow Mujtahids.The Salafi Scholors.And that too when I have seen clear proofs from them,as the Quran says:
"With Proofs and Evidences..."

In the entire Islamic history we have no famous personality who ever objected on taqlid or stopped the people from following 4 imams.

It seems you are again not reading what I wrote.I have no problem with people doing taqlid of a Fiqh.In Saudi Arabia there are a few Hanbali Scholors.What I have a problem with is why do the Muqallids not follow the opinion of the other madhab when proven that the view of that other madhab is stronger.I implore you.Why do you not do it?

 

[azc]

[MENTION=30946]Abz2000[/MENTION]:

Doors of ijtihad aren't closed though but after the recognition of 4 madhab none has ever been considered as great as 4 imams were.

There are different levels of ijtihad, last 4 are still occupied but no scholar of this age is considered to reach the level 1,2,3.
https://sunnahmuakada.wordpress.com...atawa-are-made/?_e_pi_=7,PAGE_ID10,4413708917


If you think any scholar has reached the level 3 (let alone 1st one), plz tell me his name and other scholars who endorsed it.

Note: Plz don't edit your post so frequently.

 

[Abz2000]

[MENTION=30946]Abz2000[/MENTION]:

Doors of ijtihad aren't closed though but after the recognition of 4 madhab none has ever been considered as great as 4 imams were.

There are different levels of ijtihad, last 4 are still occupied but no scholar of this age is considered to reach the level 1,2,3.
https://sunnahmuakada.wordpress.com...atawa-are-made/?_e_pi_=7,PAGE_ID10,4413708917


If you think any scholar has reached the level 3 (let alone 1st one), plz tell me his name and other scholars who endorsed it.

Note: Plz don't edit your post so frequently.

I presume from the natural circumstances that more than a few hundred people who have the same or higher level of intellect have existed in the centuries following them up until now. I would however have given that theory less weight had there been any prophecies distinguishing them.
I believe that they had good opportunities in their circumstances because the people of their age paid attention to their learned and trustworthy people and assisted them in flourishing.
The landscape today appears inverted - take for instance sheikh usama and sheikh anwar, you can see from their jawame al kalim, logical predictions, warnings, and zeal that they were distinguished amongst already distinguished families known for thinking on higher government and people management levels, but they were accused without right, hounded from city to city, murdered by criminals for their upright, honest speech and exhortations with invalid excuses such as "lest they deceive the masses", criminals such as the man with the one eyed seal and his mother who "freed" him. So yup, you can, by probing your own mind, deduce the fact that although there are none to show, there are many who've passed us by. The passing of minds such as that of einstein, darwin (yup lol), and newton amongst many others prove that far reaching and solid logical deduction is not limited to 2AH, but that circumstances and opportunities also play a vital role in budding.

I type on a phone and usually need to edit, then add bits when one part doesn't make sense with another, and that goes on. The 1/4 oz of daily mind numbing greenery phases also contributes i assume....sad i know...but relax.....all's good.... or.....at least it appears so for now.

 

[azc]

[MENTION=41139]MuhammadHamza1[/MENTION]:

I follow Mujtahids. The Salafi Scholors.

Strange taqlid...!
You left the taqlid of great imams and began to involve in taqlid of modern age scholars.

Any ways:

Q: are all the salafi scholars mujtahid...?
Q: Who regard them as mujtahid...?

And that too when I have seen clear proofs from them,as the Quran says:
"With Proofs and Evidences..."

If non salafi scholars (They should be regarded as mujtahid as well) gives the fatwa with evidences of Quran and hadith, then, will you prefer them to follow or not...?

What I have a problem with is why do the Muqallids not follow the opinion of the other madhab when proven that the view of that other madhab is stronger. I implore you.Why do you not do it?

The same question is asked to you...
Imam al-Nawawi (Allah – Exalted is He – have mercy on him) said: “Its reason is that if it were permissible to adhere to any madhhab one wished, it would lead to collecting the concessions of the madhhabs, in accordance with one’s desires, and opting between legalisation and illegalisation, obligation and permission, and this will lead to relinquishing the noose of moral responsibility (taklif); as distinguished from the early period, because [at that time] there were no refined madhhabs that encompassed the rulings of [all] outcomes. Based on this, it is necessary for him to make effort in opting for one madhhab he will adhere to specifically.” (al-Majmu‘ Sharh al-Muhadhdhab, 1:55)

we have the rule that in case of a hadith, the view of the Jamhoor or majority of the Muhadiseen is accepted.

Why all muhaddisin belong to tabqat hanabla or tabqat shaifya or tabqat malkiya or tabqat hanafiya...?

E.g.

Imam Ibne Taymmiyah rh writes in his Fatawa Vol 25 Pp 232

“Aima of hadith like, Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmizi, Nasai and a part from them some other Muhaditheen, were also opt to follow the verdict of Imam Ahmed and Imam Ishaq, Ibn al Rawhoya’s followers are also considered among those people who take the knowledge of Fiqh from them“.

Imam Subki (rh) mentioned imam bukhari from al-Shafie School in his famous Tabaqat al Shafi’eeya pp 214

and

Ibn al Qayyim rh declared him Hanbali (A’laam Ul Muqaeen, 3/ 543)

Why...?

I regard all these imams as mujtahidin though

 

[azc]

I presume from the natural circumstances that more than a few hundred people who have the same or higher level of intellect have existed in the centuries following them up until now. I would however have given that theory less weight had there been any prophecies distinguishing them.
I believe that they had good opportunities in their circumstances because the people of their age paid attention to their learned and trustworthy people and assisted them in flourishing.
The landscape today appears inverted - take for instance sheikh usama and sheikh anwar, you can see from their jawame al kalim, logical predictions, warnings, and zeal that they were distinguished amongst already distinguished families known for thinking on higher government and people management levels, but they were accused without right, hounded from city to city, murdered by criminals for their upright, honest speech and exhortations with invalid excuses such as "lest they deceive the masses", criminals such as the man with the one eyed seal and his mother who "freed" him. So yup, you can, by probing your own mind, deduce the fact that although there are none to show, there are many who've passed us by. The passing of minds such as that of einstein, darwin (yup lol), and newton amongst many others prove that far reaching and solid logical deduction is not limited to 2AH, but that circumstances and opportunities also play a vital role in budding.

I type on a phone and usually need to edit, then add bits when one part doesn't make sense with another, and that goes on. The 1/4 oz of daily mind numbing greenery phases also contributes i assume....sad i know...but relax.....all's good.... or.....at least it appears so for now.

No, bro, no scholar or imam has ever reached that level of ijtihad.

Allamah Shihab Ar-Ramli (Rahmatullahi Alayh) (957 A.H.) states: “The person who has a true understanding of what ijtihaad actually means would feel ashamed before Allah from attributing it to anyone of this day and age. In fact, Ibnus-Salah (643 A.H.) and his followers stated that it had become extinct three hundred years ago. Ibnus-Salah himself passed away three hundred years ago, hence, it had become extinct about six hundred years ago.”

Allamah Munawi (Rahmatullahi Alayh) (1031 A.H.) says: The Alim of the Syrian region, Imam Ibn Abid-Dam (642 A.H.) writes after mentioning all the conditions of ijtihad: “It is hardly possible to find these conditions in any scholar of our age. Instead, there is noMujtahid-e-mutlaqon the surface of the earth today.”

During the tenth century of Islam, Imam Suyuti (Rahmatullahi Alayh), (911 A.H.) claimed to have reached the level of ijtihad. Allamah Shihab Ibn Hajar Haitami (Rahmatullahi Alayh) (974 A.H.) says: “When Imam Jalaluddin Suyuti claimed ijtihad, all his contemporaries confronted him. They presented a questionnaire to him about some issues. Therein, they stated two possible answers to each question, and said: “If you have even reached the lowest degree of ijtihad, which is ijtihad in fatwa, then you should stipulate the preferred view, substantiated with proof, in conformance with the maxims laid down by the mujtahideen.
However, he returned their questionnaire without any answer, excusing himself that he was too busy, and was therefore unable to look into those questions.” [1]

Moulana Ashraf Ali Thanwi (Rahmatullahi Alayh) writes in this regard: “The rejecters of taqleed object by saying: “Did the Hanafis (or muqallids) receive wahy (revelation) that ijtihad has come to an end?” However, they do not understand that it is a divine principle that the means of fulfilling every need comes into existence at the time when that necessity occurs. Rainy seasons generally occur during the months of need for rain, which vary according to the different regions. Winds also blow at times of need. Where temperatures become intensely low, animals have thicker wool; and there are countless such examples. Likewise, when there was a need for the recording of Hadith, Allah created people with phenomenal memories. Such memories are nowhere to be found today. The rejecters of the four mazaahib also, who sing slogans of following Hadith, are not able to bring forth one individual who has memorized even Sahih Al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim with their chains of narrations, as was done by the illustrious authors of these blessed books.

“In the same way, when the need arose to document the shari’ah, Allah granted many people grand talents and capabilities in fiqh and ijtihad. Now that Deen has been recorded, and its laws and fundamentals outlined, this need no longer exists. Yes, to the extent of need, some ability of ijtihad is still to be found, whereby rulings for contemporary issues are deduced, through the medium of the principles laid down by the Mujtahidin. [2]

[1]مقدمة فيض القدير ص16
[2]Who are the blind followers Pg. 50 (An excerpt fromAshraful Jawaab)

 

[Abz2000]

[MENTION=38240]azc[/MENTION] so are you thereby claiming or implying that a ceiling on intellectual capacity has been set and that the four imam's authority to legislate until the day of ressurection has been sealed by Allah beyond the graves, and that the capacity of the human brains born after that date cannot and shall not reach or rise above that threshold?

And you were not a witness to this but you accept the witness of the people who didn't make this claim? Based upon which logic?

Qul haatoo burhaanakum in kuntum suaadiqeen.


25. But it is to Allah that the End and the Beginning (of all things) belong.
26. How many-so-ever be the angels in the heavens, their intercession will avail nothing except after Allah has given leave for whom He pleases and that he is acceptable to Him.
27. Those who believe not in the Hereafter, name the angels with female names.
28. But they have no knowledge therein.
They follow nothing but conjecture.
And conjecture avails nothing against Truth.
From Quran 53.



And they consider the angels, who are worshippers of Allah, to be females.
Did they witness their creation ?
Their testimony shall be recorded, and they will be asked."
(Qur’an 43:16,17,19)

 

[azc]

[MENTION=30946]Abz2000[/MENTION]

See this is what I've said in post #28:

Doors of ijtihad aren't closed though but after the recognition of 4 madhab none has ever been considered as great as 4 imams were.

There are different levels of ijtihad, last 4 are still occupied but no scholar of this age is considered to reach the level 1,2,3.

If you think any scholar has reached the level 3, plz tell me his name and other scholars who have endorsed it.

Imams of past as well as almost all scholars of this age except salafis, progressive or liberal Muslims etc have this following opinion.

Ibn Khaldun (Allah – Exalted is He – have mercy on him) said:

“Taqlid in all towns came to rest on these four, and muqallids of other than them have disappeared. The people blocked the door of disagreement and its paths when the diversification of the technical terms of the sciences became extensive; and when it became difficult to reach the level of ijtihad; and when it was feared that [somebody] unqualified for it whose opinion and religion are not trusted would be ascribed to it; so they [i.e. scholars] made [their] incapacity and deficiency clear, and they directed people to taqlid of these [four], to all who are specialised therein from the muqallids, and they forbade modification of their taqlid because it would imply frivolity. All that remained after authentication of the basic texts and connecting their chains by narration is transmission of their madhhabs, and each muqallid acting on the madhhab of the one he does taqlid of from them. There is no meaning to jurisprudence today besides this. And the claim of ijtihad in this age is rejected and turned on its heel, and his taqlid is abandoned. The people of Islam have evolved into taqlid of these four Imams.”

(Muqaddimah Ibn Khaldun, p. 430)

if you like some details on this issue, plz see this link
https://www.deoband.org/2012/07/gen...ting-a-madhhab/?_e_pi_=7,PAGE_ID10,3114061366

 

[Abz2000]

I believe that there are many people who had and have the capacity and beyond - just never the same chances, and the stagnation is due to every individual on this planet who doesn't care about how government decisions are made and is happier with caesar and khosrau and trump than Muhammad :saws: khulafaa ar-raashidoon, and other current top level scholars.

The reasoning you provided next sounds very wise, but again, a plug and not a lasting solution. These issues will have to be resolved sooner or later.

Jzk.