David Berlinski—Atheism and its Scientific Pretensions

[M.I.A.]

I agree that religion is a system to control people , and the thought of a cosmic over watcher may encourage some people to behave ,
But
If you look at the world around us , religious people of all hues are just as likely to act immorally as those who do not believe in cosmic justice , so it’s not a successful system by any stretch of the imagination.

Couple this with the fact that there are so many religions claiming to be the one true religion it just confuses the matter more.

A better way to improve society would be to encourage people to think about their actions and how they impact others, that they have rights , but the right to swing their arm ends at the tip of my nose.
There are cases which the very belief in a god causes people to behave in ways I would call immoral ... Jews circumcision of children for example.


I think if your acting in a certain way because your afraid of what will happen if you don’t ... isn’t really acting morally , at least not as moral as doing the right thing because it’s the right thing to do

..the problem is that you enforce looking at the sky while following religion.

And yet yourself would point towards the world.

Religion is control but it is control for your own benefit.. for when people start finding your nose.

And if you dont know what reach is, then how can you know what nose is?

Maybe you just want to live your life without anyone trying to spoil it for you.

..and it would be even worse if you came to the conclusion you were sharing a room.

And yet you enforce thinking about others.. which basically means to move out of your way before the veneer of civility rubs off you.

Which is a part of morality you are probably unaware of.

 

[chalks75]

..the problem is that you enforce looking at the sky while following religion.

And yet yourself would point towards the world.

Religion is control but it is control for your own benefit.. for when people start finding your nose.

And if you dont know what reach is, then how can you know what nose is?

Maybe you just want to live your life without anyone trying to spoil it for you.

..and it would be even worse if you came to the conclusion you were sharing a room.

And yet you enforce thinking about others.. which basically means to move out of your way before the veneer of civility rubs off you.

Which is a part of morality you are probably unaware of.

I don’t enforce anything , if you choose to follow a religion I don’t have a problem with that , the only time I have a problem with religions is when they try to force their religious rules on other people.

We have other methods of control for “ when people start finding my nose”
They are laws, a part of those laws is that I have the right to defend myself , which I’m more than capable of doing if needed.

Of course I want to live a longer happy life , without it being spoiled , unfortunately for the vast majority if not everybody , that is not the case.
I think we can come up with a better moral system , rather than adopting a Bronze Age moral system en masse

I’m not sure what you meant when you said I “enforce when following religion “
I don’t follow any religious ideology .

I’m not sure where this conversation is going , it seems to have gone off on a tangent.

 

[chalks75]

Wow, really? It kind of makes sense but for atheism to specifically come about as a reaction against Christianity is kind of staggering, no?


eace:

Atheism has existed longer before Christianity existed.
There were Greek philosophers who were atheist

As ling as there have been people claiming there is some god , there have been people not convinced that it’s true.

Which is all atheism is
I am not convinced gods , your god , the Christian god , Hindi gods are real.
That’s it .

Theists tend to conflate atheism with all kinds of things , evolution , morality, cosmology , leftists,
It’s true , you can be all those things and be an atheist
But
You don’t have to be any of those things to be an atheist.

I know more than one atheist that believes in an afterlife and does not accept evolution.
( lots of woo)

If your not 100% convinced that a god is real
Your agnostic
If you don’t know wether gods are real , you don’t believe they are
You are agnostic atheist.

 

[M.I.A.]

I don’t enforce anything , if you choose to follow a religion I don’t have a problem with that , the only time I have a problem with religions is when they try to force their religious rules on other people.

We have other methods of control for “ when people start finding my nose”
They are laws, a part of those laws is that I have the right to defend myself , which I’m more than capable of doing if needed.

Of course I want to live a longer happy life , without it being spoiled , unfortunately for the vast majority if not everybody , that is not the case.
I think we can come up with a better moral system , rather than adopting a Bronze Age moral system en masse

I’m not sure what you meant when you said I “enforce when following religion “
I don’t follow any religious ideology .

I’m not sure where this conversation is going , it seems to have gone off on a tangent.

I agree, it seems like it's going nowhere.

I suppose that's the difference between writing on the internet and actually having a conversation with someone lol.

I dont talk much , so it's very hard to put across.

 

[Zafran]

If you care about Islam , you should not hope for it to become really popular , it will attract converts that are not true believers.
It will dilute the number of true believers , you will end up with Islam lite.

God decides who enters the faith so I wouldnt worry about it to much.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you chalks75;

I think we can come up with a better moral system , rather than adopting a Bronze Age moral system en masse

Morality is profoundly simple, we should treat everyone fairly, and do unto others as we would have them do unto us. The bronze age moral code as you call it still applies today. Not only should we be fair to others, but we should set aside money to give to the poor, we should learn to forgive and leave judgement to God.

In the spirit of searching for God,
Eric

 

[chalks75]

God decides who enters the faith so I wouldnt worry about it to much.

I guess the people that claim to be Muslims but act in an un-Islamic way are not in the faith.
No true Scotsman eh.

 

[chalks75]

I agree, it seems like it's going nowhere.

I suppose that's the difference between writing on the internet and actually having a conversation with someone lol.

I dont talk much , so it's very hard to put across.

These issues we are discussing are complex , and I understand how deeply people care about their religions.
Sometimes the conversations are difficult ,
And they lose direction

 

[chalks75]

Greetings and peace be with you chalks75;



Morality is profoundly simple, we should treat everyone fairly, and do unto others as we would have them do unto us. The bronze age moral code as you call it still applies today. Not only should we be fair to others, but we should set aside money to give to the poor, we should learn to forgive and leave judgement to God.

In the spirit of searching for God,
Eric

I agree with you 100%
We should treat others as we would like to be treated.
The golden rule , there are versions of this that date back 8000 years to the time of the Egyptians , and like wise Confucius wrote a version in his writings.
Jesus preached it
I don’t know for certain , but there is probably a verse in the Quran about it.

I don’t think you need a god to realise or practice this.

Have you ever heard of the “veil of ignorance “

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil_of_ignorance

This is an excellent thought experiment.

 

[M.I.A.]

These issues we are discussing are complex , and I understand how deeply people care about their religions.
Sometimes the conversations are difficult ,
And they lose direction

Lol I wouldn't think so, I'd quite like to live in a town where nothing happens lol.

I hope you understand.

 

[chalks75]

Lol I wouldn't think so, I'd quite like to live in a town where nothing happens lol.

I hope you understand.

Not sure I do understand.

 

[Zafran]

I guess the people that claim to be Muslims but act in an un-Islamic way are not in the faith.
No true Scotsman eh.

There are over billions of Muslims doing all sorts of things - How many atheists are there again - and which ones are the True ones. Only God Knows.

 

[chalks75]

There are over billions of Muslims doing all sorts of things - How many atheists are there again - and which ones are the True ones. Only God Knows.

How many people believe something has no bearing on its truth.

 

[Zafran]

How many people believe something has no bearing on its truth.

atheism has nothing to do with truth remember its just a lack of belief not a truth claim. Its the reason why there has always been few atheist.

 

[chalks75]

atheism has nothing to do with truth remember its just a lack of belief not a truth claim. Its the reason why there has always been few atheist.

That’s true , atheism is not a claim to knowledge.
But
I wasn’t talking about atheism , I was talking about religions.

I does not matter how many people believe something ... it does not make it true.

If one person or a billion people believe something that is untrue .... the fact that they believe it’s true , does not make it true.

If you claim to know something , you should be able to demonstrate how you know it .
Beliefs should be justified , I believe this because of x y z.
Hopefully the reasons you believe something are good , sound, solid reasons.

After all , we all want to believe as many true things as possible.

 

[DanEdge]

Greetings All,

I didn't spend too much time looking this up, but I didn't find a lot of good data about atheism/agnosticism vs. theism. Well, I did find some good data, but it is very limited in time and place.

There is good data for the US. Reputable polling organizations like Pew Research have done their own studies, and in my opinion these are to be trusted. Pew found that: 1) atheism and agnosticism are on the rise in the US in the past 20 years, 2) those with more education or more likely to be atheist or agnostic, and 3) the younger someone is, the more likely they are to be atheist or agnostic.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/06/01/10-facts-about-atheists/

All of the research studies I looked at agree with the preceding three statements. There also seems to be an agreement among data sources that atheism and agnosticism are much more prevalent today than they were a hundred years ago in the US.

I tried to look up data for the Middle East, but I didn't like the data sources I found (eg., I don't trust polls by Secular Life or Conservatives.com). My guess is that either the topic is too politicized there or academic institutions just don't care about it that much to do serious studies.

In any case, I respectfully disagree with chalks75 on one point. The atheist position is indeed a claim to knowledge -- that a deity does not exist. So called "hard" atheism goes further -- that a deity cannot exist. What chalks75 calls atheism is usually referred to as agnosticism -- that there is no evidence of a deity.

As for me, I would describe myself as a fairly "hard" agnostic. I have no positive belief in a deity, but I think it is irrational to deny the possibility that a deity exists. If there is a higher power out there, it is much more mighty than this tiny brain inside my skull.

--Dan Edge

 

[chalks75]

Greetings All,

I didn't spend too much time looking this up, but I didn't find a lot of good data about atheism/agnosticism vs. theism. Well, I did find some good data, but it is very limited in time and place.

There is good data for the US. Reputable polling organizations like Pew Research have done their own studies, and in my opinion these are to be trusted. Pew found that: 1) atheism and agnosticism are on the rise in the US in the past 20 years, 2) those with more education or more likely to be atheist or agnostic, and 3) the younger someone is, the more likely they are to be atheist or agnostic.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/06/01/10-facts-about-atheists/

All of the research studies I looked at agree with the preceding three statements. There also seems to be an agreement among data sources that atheism and agnosticism are much more prevalent today than they were a hundred years ago in the US.

I tried to look up data for the Middle East, but I didn't like the data sources I found (eg., I don't trust polls by Secular Life or Conservatives.com). My guess is that either the topic is too politicized there or academic institutions just don't care about it that much to do serious studies.

In any case, I respectfully disagree with chalks75 on one point. The atheist position is indeed a claim to knowledge -- that a deity does not exist. So called "hard" atheism goes further -- that a deity cannot exist. What chalks75 calls atheism is usually referred to as agnosticism -- that there is no evidence of a deity.

As for me, I would describe myself as a fairly "hard" agnostic. I have no positive belief in a deity, but I think it is irrational to deny the possibility that a deity exists. If there is a higher power out there, it is much more mighty than this tiny brain inside my skull.

--Dan Edge

I agree with you that atheism is on the rise, in USA and Western Europe.
But just like religion , the number of people that believe something ( or disbelieve) has no bearing on its truth.

You are right there are 2 branches of atheism
Hard atheism , which would claim “ no god exists”
Then there is classical atheism which claims “ I do not believe a god exists”

Agnosticism relates to knowledge.

I am an agnostic atheist

I do not know wether a god or gods exist
I do not believe they do .
I am a classical atheist.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you chalky,

I am a classical atheist.

Does atheism inspire you to do anything?

For example when we go to a place of worship, there are often common themes, prayer, fasting, helping others, giving to charity, marriage for life, building communities and more. I do believe that theism brings people together in positive ways.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'
Eric

 

[chalks75]

Greetings and peace be with you chalky,



Does atheism inspire you to do anything?

For example when we go to a place of worship, there are often common themes, prayer, fasting, helping others, giving to charity, marriage for life, building communities and more. I do believe that theism brings people together in positive ways.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'
Eric

The very first post I made on this forum . I acknowledged the social aspects of religion.
It’s does foster a sense of community , but so does football.
I more concerned with wether or not it’s true.

Being an atheist , just means that I’m not convinced god claims are true.
So in a way , not being convinced that is true , led me to ask the question
If that’s not true , then what is , and what’s the best way to find out what’s true.

This has led me to learn about , science, history , religions , secular humanism, and a whole raft of other things I’d probably never of heard of , if I had just accepted the theism being offered.

In general , people act on what they believe , not on what they don’t believe
Which is why , what we believe and why is so very important.

Being a secular humanist, I’m also concerned with my fellow man.

 

[Ümit]

That’s true , atheism is not a claim to knowledge.
But
I wasn’t talking about atheism , I was talking about religions.

I does not matter how many people believe something ... it does not make it true.

If one person or a billion people believe something that is untrue .... the fact that they believe it’s true , does not make it true.

If you claim to know something , you should be able to demonstrate how you know it .
Beliefs should be justified , I believe this because of x y z.
Hopefully the reasons you believe something are good , sound, solid reasons.

After all , we all want to believe as many true things as possible.

Islaam is justified. We believe in the Quraan because it is a miracle on its own. how it is revealed by an illiterate person, the style how it is written, how flawless it is...that modern science cannot point a flaw in it...
There is no logical explanation how such a book can be produced in such circumstances, so it is divine....and if it is divine, then it is true...and therefore we believe in it.
Besides, Islaam is in total harmony with science. they are each others extensions...no other religion has this.

Science is just an approximation of the truth...one observes some strange phenomonon, believes that it may be causes by this or that, developes a theory, developes tests to examine this theory, depending on the outcome, the theory gets corrected and stands untill a more accurate test is performed to prove, disprove or correct the original theory.

So, it is possible that science can be a little off from the truth on some subjects.

Quraan however, is Gods word, and is therefore always the truth...If God created everything...even the laws of nature...why would He then teach us something different in the Quraan?
That would not make sense, would it?

So muslims support science as well, because it is a human method to understand the habitat we all live in.

Finally, according to science it is impossible that the whole universe came into existence on its own. The development of Earth took 14 billion years. seeing what circumstances was needed to form a single DNA molecule...there is no way that it can form just by coincidence in 14 billion years.
Besides, from Chaos does not come order. Glass is actually just molten SiO2 which is basically molten sand, deserts are full of it...yet you will never find an empty perfectly formed marmelade jar in the desert totally formed on its own...you will not find any piece of glass with the inscription "made on its own"...you will never find perfect, anatomically correct full stone statues of anything, totally made on its own....but the material is already there, for billions of years...so the world, moon, and other celestial bodies should be full with some sort of statues, yet nothing.

From chaos does not come order. That just does not make sense...it is not logical. So there must be some other explanation for it...which is the Quraan.
It is given information to us...So it is wise to at least investigate it.

But despite of that small chance of happening...even if a complete full functioning cell has been formed by chance...it still is dead material.
There is no possible explanation how dead material can come to life...evolusionist theorists speak about early enzymes that were hardly alive found each other and formed the first DNA molecule, but still the step between dead and hardly alive is infinitely huge.

So there must be some other explanation for it...which is God.

So to say "we do not know" is false, because we still have this given information, the Quraan. This is extra information for us to guide us, to give us directions.
It is up to you if you walk in that pointed direction or you just dwell in the dark and try to find your own way.

That is why we believe...and it is solid, explainable and totally logical.