Mawlid. Where is your intellect?

['Abdullah]

When the deobandi scholars say its 'bida' they either don't understand fully in what way they consider it bida or they mean there is bidah done in some mawlid (like free mixing) celebrations so that's why they prohibit it

They're either using the 'laymen terminologies' (I. E. They don't bother using all the more detailed reasons why they prohibit it as it may confuse laymen, or either some of the deobandi scholars havnt learnt the nitty gritty reasons why themselves.

See my above link to bint Aisha. That explains that deobandis prohibit it due to bidah done in mawlid and they don't regard the mawlid itself to be bidah

Deobandis infact consider the mawlid to be mubah (allowed) so they think a mubah action should be prohibited if it is accompanied by bidah.

The vast majority of the ahlus Sunnah scholars allow mawlid and the imperative reason that we need this in this day and age to rekindle light of iman in us when iman and 'amal are at an all time low makes sense to me

See:

https://www.deoband.org/2010/02/fiqh/miscellaneous/mawlid-deoband-and-hanafi-fiqh/

And anyway, let's say for example there is a valid view that the mawlid itself is bidah, even in this case, we do not condemn those who hold it valid as differences of opinion in fiqh is not condemned

I think we need to first understand what Bidah really mean and why every bidah is called misguidance which will lead to hell fire.
When we invent new things in the religion at the name of Bid-al-hasana, what exactly it means? It means that human beings (naouzubillha) have more knowledge from God. This means God (naouzubillah) forgot to tell us something and our scholars discovered through their infinite wisdom that such and such thing shall be part of the religion. This is exactly what Quran warned us about and that's exactly the reason why Quran told us stories of previous nations and told us how they changed the words of God for their worldly gains.

When Quran says that today your religion has been completed for you, it means that everything which can lead to Jannah has been told and everything which keep one away from hell fire has also been told. Our Prophet PBUH conveyed the entire message of Islam with sincereity and he PBUH did not hide anything related to religion from us. If he PBUH can tell us trivial things such as how to use the rest room, do you really think he PBUH forget to tell us the importance of celebrating his birthday? Did any of his companions or even tabieen celebrated his birthday? No, the first time his birthday was ever celebrated was more than 600 years after his death. In our time and age, people have invented invented mother's day, father's day, and Muslims have invented Prophet's day. Muslims don't have any specific day to respect their parents or to show respect to prophet PBUH, we make this part of our daily routine. We live by the Sunnah every minutes and every second. The best way to show love to Allah's messenger is to follow his Sunnah and when it comes to following his Sunnah, we follow our imams and reject his Sunnah. Are we then the followers of our imams or followers of Prophet Muhammad PBUH? Is not this the way of those who had the guidance but are still misguided (al-daaleen)?

If this is too hard to understand then let me give you a very simple example. Suppose you are offered your favorite dessert and you are told that it may be piousness. Would you eat it? No person in right mind will eat it because there is chance that you may loose your life. Same in the case with these newly inventions in the religion. We are warning you to stay away from these because these are innovations and can lead you to misguidance. The best approach is to play safe and only follow what Quran and hadiths tell us to do. If you choose the other path then surely that's the path of those who are misguided, those who think God forgot to mention some aspects of the religion or those who think Prophet Muhammad PBUH forgot to tell us the importance of celebrating his birthday. Anyways choice is yours.
[MENTION=36993]eesa the kiwi[/MENTION], is it possible that we discuss issues like this in a group which is for Muslims only? I hate to discuss our differences in an open forum as it only show how divided we are.

 

[Ahmed.]

I think we need to first understand what Bidah really mean and why every bidah is called misguidance which will lead to hell fire.
When we invent new things in the religion at the name of Bid-al-hasana, what exactly it means? It means that human beings (naouzubillha) have more knowledge from God. This means God (naouzubillah) forgot to tell us something and our scholars discovered through their infinite wisdom that such and such thing shall be part of the religion. This is exactly what Quran warned us about and that's exactly the reason why Quran told us stories of previous nations and told us how they changed the words of God for their worldly gains.

When Quran says that today your religion has been completed for you, it means that everything which can lead to Jannah has been told and everything which keep one away from hell fire has also been told. Our Prophet PBUH conveyed the entire message of Islam with sincereity and he PBUH did not hide anything related to religion from us. If he PBUH can tell us trivial things such as how to use the rest room, do you really think he PBUH forget to tell us the importance of celebrating his birthday? Did any of his companions or even tabieen celebrated his birthday? No, the first time his birthday was ever celebrated was more than 600 years after his death. In our time and age, people have invented invented mother's day, father's day, and Muslims have invented Prophet's day. Muslims don't have any specific day to respect their parents or to show respect to prophet PBUH, we make this part of our daily routine. We live by the Sunnah every minutes and every second. The best way to show love to Allah's messenger is to follow his Sunnah and when it comes to following his Sunnah, we follow our imams and reject his Sunnah. Are we then the followers of our imams or followers of Prophet Muhammad PBUH? Is not this the way of those who had the guidance but are still misguided (al-daaleen)?

If this is too hard to understand then let me give you a very simple example. Suppose you are offered your favorite dessert and you are told that it may be piousness. Would you eat it? No person in right mind will eat it because there is chance that you may loose your life. Same in the case with these newly inventions in the religion. We are warning you to stay away from these because these are innovations and can lead you to misguidance. The best approach is to play safe and only follow what Quran and hadiths tell us to do. If you choose the other path then surely that's the path of those who are misguided, those who think God forgot to mention some aspects of the religion or those who think Prophet Muhammad PBUH forgot to tell us the importance of celebrating his birthday. Anyways choice is yours.
[MENTION=36993]eesa the kiwi[/MENTION], is it possible that we discuss issues like this in a group which is for Muslims only? I hate to discuss our differences in an open forum as it only show how divided we are.

There's more to the meaning of the word bidah rather than just 'new things', the scholars have divided up 'new things' into that which conforms to the Quran and sunnah and that which doesn't, the former they have classed as bidah hasanah (good bidah) and the latter as the one that is forbidden

 

[Ahmed.]

Imam al-Lakhnawi explains this by quoting from al-Tariqa al-Muhammadiyya of Imam al-Barkawi:

“If it is said that how can we reconcile between the Messenger of Allah’s statement “Every innovation is misguidance” and the Fuqaha’s classification of Bid’a into the lawful, recommended and the obligatory?

We will say: Bid’a has a linguistic meaning that is general, which is to introduce, regardless of whether it is considered worship or is related to personal habits. It (Bid’a) also has a Shariah definition that is more specific, which is to add or remove in religion in a way that it was not done in the time of the Prophet (Allah bless him & give him peace) and his Companions, verbally, practically, explicitly or implicitly. Therefore, (the Shar’i Bid’a) does not include habits (worldly matters), rather it is restricted to certain beliefs and practices” (Iqamat al-Hujjah, P. 21-22).

Therefore, the classification of Bid’a in various categories is from a linguistic point of view that does not include the Shar’i definition of Bid’a. It is from this, Sayyiduna Umar al-Khattab (Allah be pleased with him) said regarding the performance of Tarawih prayer in congregation “This is a good innovation.”

https://islamqa.org/hanafi/daruliftaa/8514

 

['Abdullah]

There's more to the meaning of the word bidah rather than just 'new things', the scholars have divided up 'new things' into that which conforms to the Quran and sunnah and that which doesn't, the former they have classed as bidah hasanah (good bidah) and the latter as the one that is forbidden

كل بدعة ضلالة وكل ضلالة في النار

The world Kullu encompasses all bidah's.​

If we really need to have categories of bidah then there are two main categories.

1. Bidah haqeeqiyyah, meaning proper innovation, in every sense of the word. It has absolutely no association to, or basis in the Shariah. It is when a person seeks nearness to Allah through something that the Messenger of Allah PBUH never sought nearness to Allah with at all, in its very foundation. From the examples of this type of innovation is seeking nearness to Allah through celebrating birthdays, or through dancing and music, or through acting. Give me one narration from hadith or from Quran for celebrating birthday of Prophet PBUH.

2. Bidah idaafiyyah (relative), this is when a person seeks nearness to Allah on account of something by which nearness is in fact sought with Allah in its foundation (asl), but to which he adds something which takes it away from the form that it came with in the Shariah and this is done in respect to six matters:​

[SUB][SUP]
[/SUP][/SUB]​

• al-kam (number)
• al-kayf (form)
• al-jins (type, species)
• al-sabab (cause, reason)
• al-makan (place)
• al-zaman (time)

And an illustration of each is as follows:

al-kam (number): This is when a person worships Allah through altering the number as it relates to acts of worship, such as praying four rakahs for maghrib, or stoning the jamarat in Hajj ten times instead of seven, or making dhikr of Allah through adkhaar a certain number of times that is not established in the Sunnah, such as repeating it five times, when the Sunnah says three and so on.
al-kayf (form): This is when a person changes the form and nature of the act of worship, such as performing an act of worship in unison (such as dhikr) when in the Sunnah it is not done like that, or making saee before the tawaaf in Umrah, or performing wudhu by washing his feet first. All of this is a departure from the form of the act of worship as it has come in the Shariah.
al-jins (type, species): This is when a type or species is mentioned in relation to an act of worship is changed. For example, instead of sacrificing a sheep, a person sacrifices a gazelle or some other animal, which is not from the species specified in the Shari'ah.
al-sabab (cause, reason): This is when a person performs an act of worship due to a reason or cause to which it has not been attached in the Shariah. For example, a funeral prayer is not performed when an eclipse occurs and the eclipse prayer is not performed in relation to other events. Likewise specifying the performance of tahajjud prayer on the night it is claimed that the Messenger ascended to the heavens is another example, and likewise making expiation (by fasting) because of breaking one's promise. Associating acts of worship with reasons or causes not established in the Shariah is a common form of innovation.
al-makan (place): This is when a person stops at a place other than Arafat during Hajj (on the day of Arafat), or makes tawaf and saee at other than the respective places, or when a man makes itikaf in other than a mosque.
al-zaman (time): This is when a person performs acts of worship outside of their legislated times such as sacrificing the animal at the very beginning of the days of Hajj, or specifying the sacrifice of an animal within Ramadan when the Shariah has not specified that, or fasting the Ramadan fasts in another month. It can also be when a person specifies an act of worship for a time that the Shariah has not specified such as making a particular remembrance or recitation of a surah of the Qur'an at a particular time of the day or day of the week, such as when a person specifies the recitation of Surah Mulk on a Wednesday, believing it to be righteousness and nearness to Allah to do so.

The majority of innovations are idaafiyyah (relative) and it is why innovation is deceptive and appealing because it does not appear to be inherently evil, rather it appears as goodness, resembling the Shariah in its essence or foundation, but opposing the Shariah in the abovementioned matters. And this is what indicates the great evil of innovation in that it is alluring and hardly appears to be misguidance. It is for this reason that the Messenger of Allah PBUH would make a recurring warning against innovations, their misguidance and evil.

There are Muslims in India and Pakistan ( majority of those are Hanafi) who worship graves and call it bidah al hasana. They even have verses from Quran to support their claims. There are sub groups within Hanafi Muslims who think Prophet Muhammad PBUH is still alive and he was not a human beings, again they claim to have evidence from Quran and hadith. If you want to be one of those, then that's your choice.

 

[Ahmed.]

كل بدعة ضلالة وكل ضلالة في النار

The world Kullu encompasses all bidah's.​

If we really need to have categories of bidah then there are two main categories.

1. Bidah haqeeqiyyah, meaning proper innovation, in every sense of the word. It has absolutely no association to, or basis in the Shariah. It is when a person seeks nearness to Allah through something that the Messenger of Allah PBUH never sought nearness to Allah with at all, in its very foundation. From the examples of this type of innovation is seeking nearness to Allah through celebrating birthdays, or through dancing and music, or through acting. Give me one narration from hadith or from Quran for celebrating birthday of Prophet PBUH.

2. Bidah idaafiyyah (relative), this is when a person seeks nearness to Allah on account of something by which nearness is in fact sought with Allah in its foundation (asl), but to which he adds something which takes it away from the form that it came with in the Shariah and this is done in respect to six matters:​

[SUB][SUP]
[/SUP][/SUB]​

• al-kam (number)
• al-kayf (form)
• al-jins (type, species)
• al-sabab (cause, reason)
• al-makan (place)
• al-zaman (time)

And an illustration of each is as follows:

al-kam (number): This is when a person worships Allah through altering the number as it relates to acts of worship, such as praying four rakahs for maghrib, or stoning the jamarat in Hajj ten times instead of seven, or making dhikr of Allah through adkhaar a certain number of times that is not established in the Sunnah, such as repeating it five times, when the Sunnah says three and so on.
al-kayf (form): This is when a person changes the form and nature of the act of worship, such as performing an act of worship in unison (such as dhikr) when in the Sunnah it is not done like that, or making saee before the tawaaf in Umrah, or performing wudhu by washing his feet first. All of this is a departure from the form of the act of worship as it has come in the Shariah.
al-jins (type, species): This is when a type or species is mentioned in relation to an act of worship is changed. For example, instead of sacrificing a sheep, a person sacrifices a gazelle or some other animal, which is not from the species specified in the Shari'ah.
al-sabab (cause, reason): This is when a person performs an act of worship due to a reason or cause to which it has not been attached in the Shariah. For example, a funeral prayer is not performed when an eclipse occurs and the eclipse prayer is not performed in relation to other events. Likewise specifying the performance of tahajjud prayer on the night it is claimed that the Messenger ascended to the heavens is another example, and likewise making expiation (by fasting) because of breaking one's promise. Associating acts of worship with reasons or causes not established in the Shariah is a common form of innovation.
al-makan (place): This is when a person stops at a place other than Arafat during Hajj (on the day of Arafat), or makes tawaf and saee at other than the respective places, or when a man makes itikaf in other than a mosque.
al-zaman (time): This is when a person performs acts of worship outside of their legislated times such as sacrificing the animal at the very beginning of the days of Hajj, or specifying the sacrifice of an animal within Ramadan when the Shariah has not specified that, or fasting the Ramadan fasts in another month. It can also be when a person specifies an act of worship for a time that the Shariah has not specified such as making a particular remembrance or recitation of a surah of the Qur'an at a particular time of the day or day of the week, such as when a person specifies the recitation of Surah Mulk on a Wednesday, believing it to be righteousness and nearness to Allah to do so.

The majority of innovations are idaafiyyah (relative) and it is why innovation is deceptive and appealing because it does not appear to be inherently evil, rather it appears as goodness, resembling the Shariah in its essence or foundation, but opposing the Shariah in the abovementioned matters. And this is what indicates the great evil of innovation in that it is alluring and hardly appears to be misguidance. It is for this reason that the Messenger of Allah PBUH would make a recurring warning against innovations, their misguidance and evil.

There are Muslims in India and Pakistan ( majority of those are Hanafi) who worship graves and call it bidah al hasana. They even have verses from Quran to support their claims. There are sub groups within Hanafi Muslims who think Prophet Muhammad PBUH is still alive and he was not a human beings, again they claim to have evidence from Quran and hadith. If you want to be one of those, then that's your choice.

I think the Scholars of Islam will know better than you brother, and Islam isn't as so simply black and white as our Shaykh saab in video made out to be. There are many shady areas and nuances to words that only our qualified mujtahidoun understand

 

['Abdullah]

I think the Scholars of Islam will know better than you brother, and Islam isn't as so simply black and white as our Shaykh saab in video made out to be. There are many shady areas and nuances to words that only our qualified mujtahidoun understand

I understand brother, one of the qualification you impose is that this scholar has to be hanafi otherwise no matter what you will reject their opinion. Anyways, I have no desire to debate with my own Muslim brother. The best I can do is to disagree with your opinion respectfully and not to reply to posts on such controversial topics. All the best!

 

[SintoDinto]

[MENTION=36993]eesa the kiwi[/MENTION] if you can;t even consult such great scholars imam abu hanifa (rh) and imam shafi that there is such a thing as a good bidah, and instead choose to follow your scholars blindly, why not consult the hadeeth of umar (ra) where he himself notices a good bidah (congregational tarawih)

 

[Ahmed.]

I understand brother, one of the qualification you impose is that this scholar has to be hanafi otherwise no matter what you will reject their opinion. Anyways, I have no desire to debate with my own Muslim brother. The best I can do is to disagree with your opinion respectfully and not to reply to posts on such controversial topics. All the best!

No not Hanafi brother.

Let me explain

Hanafi, Shafi etc etc is only about fiqh so I would learn the practical Islam from my own respective madhab. But all other knowledge (except that which is obvious and doesn't need a Scholar for) has to come from qualified fuqaha/mujtahidoun and such scholars are rare... These fatwa sites that I post from only follow the original and classical mujtahidoun that are the four Imams and their students. So we really rely on the past classical mujtahidoun. Here is an explanation

Ibn ‘Uyyana, may Allah be pleased with him, has said,
“The hadiths are a source of error except for the jurists.”

What he means is that people, other than the scholars, might interpret a tradition based on an apparent meaning, and yet [the hadith may] have another interpretation based on some other hadith that clarifies the meaning or some proof that remains hidden [to the common people]. After a long discussion, he remarks,

“That as for their saying, ‘How can you leave clear Qur’anic verses and sound hadiths and follow the Imams in their ijtihads, which have a clear probability of error,’”

His answer to them is as follows:

“Surely the following of our [rightly guided] Imams is not abandoning the Qur’anic verses or the sound hadiths; it is the very essence of adhering to them and taking our judgements from them. This is because the Qur’an has not come down to us except by means of these very Imams [who are more worthy of following] by virtue of being more knowledgeable than us in [the sciences of] the abrogating and abrogated, the absolute and the conditional, the equivocal and the clarifying, the probabilistic and the plain, the circumstances surrounding revelation and their various meanings, as well as their possible interpretations and various linguistic and philological considerations, [not to mention] the various other ancillary sciences [involved in understanding the Qur’an] needed.

“Also, they took all of that from the students of the companions (tabi’in) who received their instruction from the companions themselves, who received their instructions from the Lawgiver himself, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, divinely protected from every mistake, who bore witness that the first three generations of Muslims would be ones of virtue and righteousness. Furthermore, the prophetic traditions have also reached us through their means given that they were also more knowledgeable than us through their means given that they were also more knowledgeable than those who came after them concerning the rigorously authenticated (sahih), the well authenticated (hasan), and the weak (da’if) channels of transmission, as well as the marfu’u4, mursal5, mutawatir6, ahad7, mu’dal8 and gharib9 transmissions.

“Thus, as far as this little band of men is concerned, there is only one of two possibilities: either they are attributing ignorance to Imams whose knowledge is considered by consensus to have reached human perfection as witnessed in several traditions of the truthful Lawgiver, upon him be prayers and peace, or they are actually attributing misguidance and lack of din to Imams who are all from the best of generations by the testimony of the magnificent Messenger himself, may Allah bless him and grant him peace. Surely, it is not the eyes that are blind, but blind are the hearts in our breasts.

As for their saying to the one who imitates Malik, for example, “We say to you ‘Allah says’ or ‘the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, says’ and you reply, ‘Malik says’, or ‘Ibn al-Qasim says’, or ‘Khalil says’, for example,” our response is that the follower who says, “Malik says . . . etc.,” means that, “Malik says based on his deep understanding of the Word of Allah, or of the words of the Messenger, or of those firmly adhering to the actions of the companions, or of the tabi’in who understood clearly the Word of Allah and the word of the Messenger of Allah or took their example from the actions of His Messenger.” And the meaning of [a follower] saying “Ibn al-Qasim said . . .” is that he has [faithfully] transmitted what Malik said based on his understanding of the Word of Allah or of what Ibn al-Qasim himself understood from the word of Allah the Most Exalted. And the meaning of him saying, “Khalil said . . . .”, for example, is that he is transmitting only from those [Imams] aforementioned. As for Malik and Ibn al-Qasim, they are both Imams whose spiritual and judicial authority is agreed upon by unanimous consensus of this Umma; and they are both from the best of generations.

Read on:

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/mhfatwa.htm

Now you have presented a break down definition of the meaning of the word bidah, but as we have seen the mainstream Sunni scholars put 3 catogory of meanings to it, the obligatory (the bidah that HAS to be done (such as the science of fiqh was established to preserve and find out the proper meanings and rulings of hadiths etc) and the mustahab (that which is recommended) and the forbidden.

Imam as shafiee, Imam an nawawi and many other classical fuqaha divided bidah up into good and bad so don't you think they knew the definition of bidah?, so basically it boils down to, who do we follow, the modern day Salafi scholars or the mainstream scholars who base their understandings on that of the classical Ulema.

 

[eesa the kiwi]

@eesa the kiwi if you can;t even consult such great scholars imam abu hanifa (rh) and imam shafi that there is such a thing as a good bidah, and instead choose to follow your scholars blindly, why not consult the hadeeth of umar (ra) where he himself notices a good bidah (congregational tarawih)

Firstly I doubt abu hanifa said such a thing and I've yet to see evidence for imam shafi stating it either

Umar radiallaho anhu made that statement about something established in the sunnah using the linguistic meaning of the word.
To use his statement to justify innovations in the deen is foolishness

Finally dont accuse me of blind following

 

['Abdullah]

Now you have presented a break down definition of the meaning of the words bidah, but as we have seen the mainstream Sunni scholars put 3 catogory of meanings to it, the obligatory (the bidah that HAS to be done (such as the science of fiqh was established to preserve and find out the proper meanings and rulings of hadiths etc) and the mustahab (that which is recommended) and the forbidden.

Imam as shafiee, Imam an nawawi and many other classical fuqaha divided bidah up into good and bad so don't you think they knew the definition of bidah?, so basically it boils down to, who do we follow, the modern day Salafi scholars or the mainstream scholars who base their understandings on that of the classical Ulema.

Sunni scholars have several categories of Bidah and it all depends who you are talking about and how that have understood the definition of Bidah. In general Hanafi Muslims categorized innovations into five types: the obligatory (wajib), the recommended (mandub), the permissible (mubah), the offensive (makruh), and the forbidden (haram). The way I have been defining Bidah, it only falls in one of the categories and that is "the forbidden category (haram)." Rest of the categories are created only to create confusion and legitimize Bidah by calling it something good.

Since you mentioned that compiling of Quran and hadith is bidah Wajib, I think I need make it clear that this is not bidah. You are only using these examples to support your opinion that bidah can be good and to support the celebration of Prophet Muhammad PBUH birthday while you know that you are not comparing two similar things. You also know that these things were not Bidah because they have basis in Quran or Sunnah and compiling Quran or hadith did not change Shariah.

• Writing of Quran and hadith have its basis both in Quran and hadith, so they are not newly invented matters which change Shariah(Definition of Bidah). Compiling the Quran into one book has a basis in Islam, because the Prophet PBUH had commanded that the Quran be written down, but it was scattered, so the Sahabah compiled it in one volume so as so protect and preserve it.
• Writing down the hadith also has a basis in Islam. The Prophet PBUH ordered that some ahadith should be written down for some of his companions when they asked him for that. In general terms writing it down during his lifetime was not allowed, for fear that the Quran might be mixed with things that were not part of it. When the Prophet PBUH died, this fear was no longer a factor, because the Quran had been completed and arranged in order before he died. The Muslims compiled the Sunnah after that in order to preserve it and keep it from being lost.
• The Prophet PBUH led his companions in praying Tarawih for a while, then he stopped doing that, lest that become obligatory on them. The Sahabah (may Allah be pleased with them) continued to pray it separately during the life of the Prophet PBUH and after his death, until Umar (RA) gathered them behind one imam as they used to pray behind the Prophet PBUH. This was not an innovation introduced into the religion. I gave this example because I have seen some Hanafi friends often quote that "tarawih is also bidah al hasana" while I have shown that its not a bidah. ​

Can you find any basis for celebrating Prophet Muhammad PBUH's birthday in quran and Sunnah or in the life of Prophet PBUH's companions? If you can't then rest assure, it is Bidah.

 

[Ahmed.]

Sunni scholars have several categories of Bidah and it all depends who you are talking about and how that have understood the definition of Bidah. In general Hanafi Muslims categorized innovations into five types: the obligatory (wajib), the recommended (mandub), the permissible (mubah), the offensive (makruh), and the forbidden (haram). The way I have been defining Bidah, it only falls in one of the categories and that is "the forbidden category (haram)." Rest of the categories are created only to create confusion and legitimize Bidah by calling it something good.

Since you mentioned that compiling of Quran and hadith is bidah Wajib, I think I need make it clear that this is not bidah. You are only using these examples to support your opinion that bidah can be good and to support the celebration of Prophet Muhammad PBUH birthday while you know that you are not comparing two similar things. You also know that these things were not Bidah because they have basis in Quran or Sunnah and compiling Quran or hadith did not change Shariah.

• Writing of Quran and hadith have its basis both in Quran and hadith, so they are not newly invented matters which change Shariah(Definition of Bidah). Compiling the Quran into one book has a basis in Islam, because the Prophet PBUH had commanded that the Quran be written down, but it was scattered, so the Sahabah compiled it in one volume so as so protect and preserve it.
• Writing down the hadith also has a basis in Islam. The Prophet PBUH ordered that some ahadith should be written down for some of his companions when they asked him for that. In general terms writing it down during his lifetime was not allowed, for fear that the Quran might be mixed with things that were not part of it. When the Prophet PBUH died, this fear was no longer a factor, because the Quran had been completed and arranged in order before he died. The Muslims compiled the Sunnah after that in order to preserve it and keep it from being lost.
• The Prophet PBUH led his companions in praying Tarawih for a while, then he stopped doing that, lest that become obligatory on them. The Sahabah (may Allah be pleased with them) continued to pray it separately during the life of the Prophet PBUH and after his death, until Umar (RA) gathered them behind one imam as they used to pray behind the Prophet PBUH. This was not an innovation introduced into the religion. I gave this example because I have seen some Hanafi friends often quote that "tarawih is also bidah al hasana" while I have shown that its not a bidah. ​

Can you find any basis for celebrating Prophet Muhammad PBUH's birthday in quran and Sunnah or in the life of Prophet PBUH's companions? If you can't then rest assure, it is Bidah.

No no brother they don't create confusion. Islam can not be turned into a simplified black And white religion when really it is far more nuanced and rich than that.

Anyway, we can argue till the cows come home and there's no point brother as there is already enough info and links posted up on this thread for our readers to choose for themselves as to which view to adopt

There are things which weren't necessary in the days of Prophet (saw) and sahaba (ra) and milad was one of those things... But the further we are from the time of those early days and more in the darker and fitna era, the more the need arises to create and kindle a love for Prophet (saw) in our hearts and milad serves that purpose

In the article I posted above titled 'proof of Bid'a e hasanah' there is evidence provided that sunnah acts can be things which weren't necessary in Prophet's (time) but a need arises for them at a later time and does not contradict Quran and sunnah.

Now you confining sunnah to whatever was in practice at Prophet (saw) time only, again comes down to, who's definition and understanding of bidah is correct and I'd rather believe the majority of Scholars' opinion.

 

['Abdullah]

No no brother they don't create confusion. Islam can not be turned into a simplified black And white religion when really it is far more nuanced and rich than that.

Anyway, we can argue till the cows come home and there's no point brother as there is already enough info and links posted up on this thread for our readers to choose for themselves as to which view to adopt

There are things which weren't necessary in the days of Prophet (saw) and sahaba (ra) and milad was one of those things... But the further we are from the time of those early days and more in the darker and fitna era, the more the need arises to create and kindle a love for Prophet (saw) in our hearts and milad serves that purpose

In the article I posted above titled 'proof of Bid'a e hasanah' there is evidence provided that sunnah acts can be things which weren't necessary in Prophet's (time) but a need arises for them at a later time and does not contradict Quran and sunnah.

Now you confining sunnah to whatever was in practice at Prophet (saw) time only, again comes down to, who's definition and understanding of bidah is correct and I'd rather believe the majority of Scholars' opinion.

There is not a single Sahih Hadith which proves that prophet Muhammad PHUB was born on 12th Rabi Alawal and still you insist it is okay to celebrate Prophets birthday on this date? Give me a single Sahih Hadith showing Prophet’s birthdate on 12th rabi alawal.

In Sahih Muslim we have a Hadith which says Prophet Muhammad PBUH was born on Monday and that is one of the reason why we fast on Monday. Can eid and fasting go together? If they can’t, then how can we celebrate prophet Muhammad’s birthday while prophet Muhammad PBUH is advising us to fast?

You and I don’t have to worry about glorifying prophet Muhammad PBUH. Allah has already raised status of His Habib by including his blessed name in each Adhan and by making it obligatory on us to send darood on him during salah. Eid Milad alnabi is for wasting money which could be used for good causes.

Finally your opinion in not majority. If you think majority means Pakistan and Indian Muslims then you are dead wrong. Even in hanafi Muslims, majority don’t celebrate prophet PBUH’s birthday simply because there is no evidence that He was born on 12th Rabi alawal and there is no evidence in Quran and sunnah to do so.

After all this discussion, in deed there is no point to argue. W/Salam

 

[Ahmed.]

Sunni scholars have several categories of Bidah and it all depends who you are talking about and how that have understood the definition of Bidah. In general Hanafi Muslims categorized innovations into five types: the obligatory (wajib), the recommended (mandub), the permissible (mubah), the offensive (makruh), and the forbidden (haram). The way I have been defining Bidah, it only falls in one of the categories and that is "the forbidden category (haram)." Rest of the categories are created only to create confusion and legitimize Bidah by calling it something good.

Since you mentioned that compiling of Quran and hadith is bidah Wajib, I think I need make it clear that this is not bidah. You are only using these examples to support your opinion that bidah can be good and to support the celebration of Prophet Muhammad PBUH birthday while you know that you are not comparing two similar things. You also know that these things were not Bidah because they have basis in Quran or Sunnah and compiling Quran or hadith did not change Shariah.

• Writing of Quran and hadith have its basis both in Quran and hadith, so they are not newly invented matters which change Shariah(Definition of Bidah). Compiling the Quran into one book has a basis in Islam, because the Prophet PBUH had commanded that the Quran be written down, but it was scattered, so the Sahabah compiled it in one volume so as so protect and preserve it.
• Writing down the hadith also has a basis in Islam. The Prophet PBUH ordered that some ahadith should be written down for some of his companions when they asked him for that. In general terms writing it down during his lifetime was not allowed, for fear that the Quran might be mixed with things that were not part of it. When the Prophet PBUH died, this fear was no longer a factor, because the Quran had been completed and arranged in order before he died. The Muslims compiled the Sunnah after that in order to preserve it and keep it from being lost.
• The Prophet PBUH led his companions in praying Tarawih for a while, then he stopped doing that, lest that become obligatory on them. The Sahabah (may Allah be pleased with them) continued to pray it separately during the life of the Prophet PBUH and after his death, until Umar (RA) gathered them behind one imam as they used to pray behind the Prophet PBUH. This was not an innovation introduced into the religion. I gave this example because I have seen some Hanafi friends often quote that "tarawih is also bidah al hasana" while I have shown that its not a bidah. ​

Can you find any basis for celebrating Prophet Muhammad PBUH's birthday in quran and Sunnah or in the life of Prophet PBUH's companions? If you can't then rest assure, it is Bidah.

In one sense you are right that taraweeh cannot be called a bidah... But from another angle it is a bidah e hasana if we think about it logically

Allah revealed 'today I have perfected/completed your religion...' while Prophet (saw) was alive so the Deen was fully completed then and this included the Prophet (saw) saying 'follow my and the four Caliphs' sunnah'.

However no instruction was left to Umar (ra) to establish the taraweeh, so the taraweeh was established by Umar (ra) deeming it necessary or a very beneficial ibadah AND THAT WHICH CONFORMS TO QURAN AND SUNNAH TOO using Umar's (ra) personal reasoning (ijtihad), so in essense, this was a bidah hasanah that was established and since Prophet (saw) said 'follow sunnah of the four caliphs', this means we can follow Umar's (ra) precedent of establishing bidah e hasana and that new worship acts (bidah) CAN conform to Quran and sunnah too even after Prophet's (saw) death.

 

[Ahmed.]

Here's a good explanation with hadith reference:

D The Messenger of Allaah صلى الله عليه وسلم said:

"Whoever innovates something reprehensible in this matter of ours that does not belong to it is rejected." (Bukhari, Muslim)

"In this matter" i.e. religion - Islam. Defining "innovation," Qadi Iyad رحمه الله writes, "Whoever innovates an opinion in Islam that does not have any manifest (zahir) or obscure (khafi) or clear derived substantiation from the Qur'an and Sunna, then it is rejected."

... It also can be understood from the above explanation of bid'a that many things were not needed in the time of Allah's Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم, but were established later to achieve a religious objective, cannot be included in the realm of bid'a (in the legal sense) either, [even though they may be considered bid'a in the literal sense, i.e., "an innovation" or "something new." Many times the later is intended when referencing a certain matter to be a good or bad bid'a, since every action legally considered a bid'a can only be reprehensible].

Some innovations that do not violate the Qur'an or the Sunna include the establishment of of madrasas with their organized curricula and classrooms and centers and institutions for spreading Islam (da'wa). Also included among these commendable innovations is the codification of sciences like Arabic grammar, syntax, etymology, rhetoric, and literature to better understand and interpret the Qur'an and hadith; the study of philosophy [or other relevant subjects] to repudiate heretical groups; and the use of certain modern weapons for the defense of Muslims.

Examples of [legally] reprehensible innovation include [unnecessary] decoration of masjids or the custom of shaking hands after the prayers. Mulla 'Ali al-Qari رحمه الله writes, "Some of our scholars [i.e. the Hanafi scholars] have explicitly mentioned that it [shaking hands after prayer] is disliked, and for this reason it is from among the reprehensible innovations (Mirqat al-mafatih 1:368, see also Radd al-muthar 5:244). [A] Conversely, one must also be cautious of ignorantly labeling something, which may be recommended or permissible, as a bid'a, since that is also detrimental to the faith.

[Excerpt from, Provisions for the Seekers with commentary by Mufti Abdur-Rahman Ibn Yusuf]

http://www.muftisays.com/forums/76-the-true-salaf-as-saliheen/5681-innovation-bidah.html?p=41785

 

['Abdullah]

In one sense you are right that taraweeh cannot be called a bidah... But from another angle it is a bidah e hasana if we think about it logically

Allah revealed 'today I have perfected/completed your religion...' while Prophet (saw) was alive so the Deen was fully completed then and this included the Prophet (saw) saying 'follow my and the four Caliphs' sunnah'.

However no instruction was left to Umar (ra) to establish the taraweeh, so the taraweeh was established by Umar (ra) deeming it necessary or a very beneficial ibadah AND THAT WHICH CONFORMS TO QURAN AND SUNNAH TOO using Umar's (ra) personal reasoning (ijtihad), so in essense, this was a bidah hasanah that was established and since Prophet (saw) said 'follow sunnah of the four caliphs', this means we can follow Umar's (ra) precedent of establishing bidah e hasana and that new worship acts (bidah) CAN conform to Quran and sunnah too even after Prophet's (saw) death.

How is this a bidah when Prophet PBUH did that in his own time? On the other hand, did Prophet PBUH or his companions celebrated the birthday? No, there is not a single evidence.

 

[taha_]

Assalam o alaikum rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu


Mawlid is similar to christmas which is kafir custom. Imitation of kafir is forbidden


Over praising prophet peace be upon him is forbidden. Christian's did same to Prophet Isa peace be upon him and his mother may Allah be pleased with her

So we should not celebrate mawlid. It is not difficult for us to show our love toward Holy Prophet peace be upon him. What we can is just recite more durood, spread salaam to him (peace be upon him) and follow his Sunnah. That's it.

JazakAllah khair

 

['Abdullah]

https://youtu.be/KILEnBOKqfI

Here's a good explanation with hadith reference:

D The Messenger of Allaah صلى الله عليه وسلم said:

"Whoever innovates something reprehensible in this matter of ours that does not belong to it is rejected." (Bukhari, Muslim)

"In this matter" i.e. religion - Islam. Defining "innovation," Qadi Iyad رحمه الله writes, "Whoever innovates an opinion in Islam that does not have any manifest (zahir) or obscure (khafi) or clear derived substantiation from the Qur'an and Sunna, then it is rejected."

Ok that what I have been saying all along. Now tell me where is basis of celebrating the birthday? Please give me a single reference from Quran or hadith.



​

... It also can be understood from the above explanation of bid'a that many things were not needed in the time of Allah's Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم, but were established later to achieve a religious objective, cannot be included in the realm of bid'a (in the legal sense) either, [even though they may be considered bid'a in the literal sense, i.e., "an innovation" or "something new." Many times the later is intended when referencing a certain matter to be a good or bad bid'a, since every action legally considered a bid'a can only be reprehensible].

Some innovations that do not violate the Qur'an or the Sunna include the establishment of of madrasas with their organized curricula and classrooms and centers and institutions for spreading Islam (da'wa). Also included among these commendable innovations is the codification of sciences like Arabic grammar, syntax, etymology, rhetoric, and literature to better understand and interpret the Qur'an and hadith; the study of philosophy [or other relevant subjects] to repudiate heretical groups; and the use of certain modern weapons for the defense of Muslims.

Have you read about ashab e suffa? Prophet PBUH established madrassa at his own time to teach, so again this is something we can find in the Sunnah of Prophet PBUH.
Your other examples are related to worldly matters and that have no impact on Shariah. Anything which does not have an impact on shariah is not bidah and we both agree on that definition.
Now how does celebrating Prophet PBUH's birthday affect Shariah, let's look at this from fiq point of view.


In my previous post we discussed 5 possible categories of bidah per Sunnit scholars. Now Mawlid is either wajib (obligatory), or mandub (recommended) or permissible (mubah), or makruh (disliked) or muharram (unlawful). It is not wajib by consensus and nor is it mandub (recommended), because the reality of the mandub is "that (whose performance) the Shariah has requested but without any censure for the one who leaves it." But we see that the Shariah has not granted permission for this, and the Companions never did it and nor the Tabi'un and nor the religious (devoted) scholars - as far as I know. And it is not permissible that it should be mubah (permitted), because innovating in the religion is not permissible by consensus of the Muslims. Hence, there is nothing left except for it to be either makruh (disliked) or haram (unlawful).

Let's now look how people celebrate it.

Some people simply make it an occasion to gather and read the story of the Mawlid, then they present speeches and Qaseedahs (songs) on this occasion. Others prepare food and refreshments to serve to the people present. Yet others hold these celebrations in the mosques, and some of them hold them in their houses.
Some people however transcend the boundaries by engaging in Haram (unlawful) and reprehensible things, such as free mixing of men and women, dancing and singing, or committing actions of Shirk such as seeking the help of the Prophet PBUH, calling upon him, seeking his support against their enemies and so on.

If this is not enough to be call it haram then let's look at few other reasons:

Imitation of the Kuffar
Celebrating the birthday of the Prophet PBUH is an imitation of the Christians, because they celebrate a day they chose as the birth of the Prophet Essa (Jesus) PBUH. Imitating them is extremely Haram. The Hadith tells us that it is forbidden to imitate the non-believers and we are commanded to differ from them.
Prophet Muhammad PBUH said:

Whoever imitates a people is one of them (reported by Ahmad, 2/50; Abu Dawood, 4/314).

And he said:

Be different from the Mushrikeen(Reported by Muslim, 1/222, no. 259)

This is especially with regard to things that are the symbols or rituals of their religion.

Causes Exaggeration that May Lead to Worship
Besides being Bidah and an imitation of the Christians, both of which are Haram, celebrating the birthday of the Prophet PBUH is also a means that leads to exaggeration and excess in venerating him, which even goes as far as calling upon him (making Du’a’ i.e., supplicating to him) and seeking his help, instead of calling upon Allah. This is commonly seen among many of those who observe the Bidah of the Mawlid, when they call upon the Messenger PBUH instead of Allah, and ask him for support, and sing Qaseedahs (odes) of Shirk praising him. This is again close to Christians who made their Prophet God.

We can only get close to Allah by following Sunnah:
None can get close to Allah by acts of worship which were not performed by the Prophet PBUH, his companions and the four righteous Caliph that succeeded him. If that was the case then Christian also love God and they do many things at the name of God, will those be accepted? Legislating acts of worship that the Prophet PBUH and his people never did upon the Ummah is accusing the Prophet of hiding knowledge. If there was any virtue in celebrating the Prophet’s birthday, he would not have hidden that from his companions.

It is because of celebrating such innovations that we find Muslims in a state of mess in Pakistan and India. Below are links to few videos, first two show clear shirk done by so called Hanafi Muslims in Pakistan, last video is response by Abdul Raheem Green when someone said Pakistan is a Muslim country.

https://youtu.be/_YG2oFNc6JU
https://youtu.be/Tqhe7vyKVzw
https://youtu.be/aruJaYHu6nM

Finally I should probably ask you if you are Brelvi or Deubandi? Deubandi Hanafi Muslims don't support celebration of Prophet Muhammad PBUH's birthday, however, Brelvies do and most of the shirk in the videos is done by brelvi Muslims.

Below are some links to the videos specific to Mawlid, watch and tell me if this is only Bidah or is it shirk? Anyone in right mind can see why bidah like this leads to hell fire....

https://youtu.be/gwBDB_iRRSw
https://youtu.be/ZPh88eu9HDc
https://youtu.be/Q-J8L2ynVfw
https://youtu.be/R0M-eoZt9I4
https://youtu.be/XVxrUZJTUXE
https://youtu.be/tmoDEXtRpE4
https://youtu.be/COvuH-2-xlE

Seriously this is not the Islam which I know. May Allah save us from Bidah and keep us on the right path. Ameen!
​

 

[Ahmed.]

How is this a bidah when Prophet PBUH did that in his own time? On the other hand, did Prophet PBUH or his companions celebrated the birthday? No, there is not a single evidence.

Prophet (saw) never did it regularly with jamaat and especially a large jamaat so Umar (ra) deciding to establish it as a stressed sunnah (whereby its a sin if you miss it) and with large jamaat too is an innovation, a good innovation

 

[Ahmed.]

https://youtu.be/KILEnBOKqfI

Ok that what I have been saying all along. Now tell me where is basis of celebrating the birthday? Please give me a single reference from Quran or hadith.






Have you read about ashab e suffa? Prophet PBUH established madrassa at his own time to teach, so again this is something we can find in the Sunnah of Prophet PBUH.
Your other examples are related to worldly matters and that have no impact on Shariah. Anything which does not have an impact on shariah is not bidah and we both agree on that definition.
Now how does celebrating Prophet PBUH's birthday affect Shariah, let's look at this from fiq point of view.


In my previous post we discussed 5 possible categories of bidah per Sunnit scholars. Now Mawlid is either wajib (obligatory), or mandub (recommended) or permissible (mubah), or makruh (disliked) or muharram (unlawful). It is not wajib by consensus and nor is it mandub (recommended), because the reality of the mandub is "that (whose performance) the Shariah has requested but without any censure for the one who leaves it." But we see that the Shariah has not granted permission for this, and the Companions never did it and nor the Tabi'un and nor the religious (devoted) scholars - as far as I know. And it is not permissible that it should be mubah (permitted), because innovating in the religion is not permissible by consensus of the Muslims. Hence, there is nothing left except for it to be either makruh (disliked) or haram (unlawful).

Let's now look how people celebrate it.

Some people simply make it an occasion to gather and read the story of the Mawlid, then they present speeches and Qaseedahs (songs) on this occasion. Others prepare food and refreshments to serve to the people present. Yet others hold these celebrations in the mosques, and some of them hold them in their houses.
Some people however transcend the boundaries by engaging in Haram (unlawful) and reprehensible things, such as free mixing of men and women, dancing and singing, or committing actions of Shirk such as seeking the help of the Prophet PBUH, calling upon him, seeking his support against their enemies and so on.

If this is not enough to be call it haram then let's look at few other reasons:

Imitation of the Kuffar
Celebrating the birthday of the Prophet PBUH is an imitation of the Christians, because they celebrate a day they chose as the birth of the Prophet Essa (Jesus) PBUH. Imitating them is extremely Haram. The Hadith tells us that it is forbidden to imitate the non-believers and we are commanded to differ from them.
Prophet Muhammad PBUH said:

And he said:

This is especially with regard to things that are the symbols or rituals of their religion.

Causes Exaggeration that May Lead to Worship
Besides being Bidah and an imitation of the Christians, both of which are Haram, celebrating the birthday of the Prophet PBUH is also a means that leads to exaggeration and excess in venerating him, which even goes as far as calling upon him (making Du’a’ i.e., supplicating to him) and seeking his help, instead of calling upon Allah. This is commonly seen among many of those who observe the Bidah of the Mawlid, when they call upon the Messenger PBUH instead of Allah, and ask him for support, and sing Qaseedahs (odes) of Shirk praising him. This is again close to Christians who made their Prophet God.

We can only get close to Allah by following Sunnah:
None can get close to Allah by acts of worship which were not performed by the Prophet PBUH, his companions and the four righteous Caliph that succeeded him. If that was the case then Christian also love God and they do many things at the name of God, will those be accepted? Legislating acts of worship that the Prophet PBUH and his people never did upon the Ummah is accusing the Prophet of hiding knowledge. If there was any virtue in celebrating the Prophet’s birthday, he would not have hidden that from his companions.

It is because of celebrating such innovations that we find Muslims in a state of mess in Pakistan and India. Below are links to few videos, first two show clear shirk done by so called Hanafi Muslims in Pakistan, last video is response by Abdul Raheem Green when someone said Pakistan is a Muslim country.

https://youtu.be/_YG2oFNc6JU
https://youtu.be/Tqhe7vyKVzw
https://youtu.be/aruJaYHu6nM

Finally I should probably ask you if you are Brelvi or Deubandi? Deubandi Hanafi Muslims don't support celebration of Prophet Muhammad PBUH's birthday, however, Brelvies do and most of the shirk in the videos is done by brelvi Muslims.

Below are some links to the videos specific to Mawlid, watch and tell me if this is only Bidah or is it shirk? Anyone in right mind can see why bidah like this leads to hell fire....

https://youtu.be/gwBDB_iRRSw
https://youtu.be/ZPh88eu9HDc
https://youtu.be/Q-J8L2ynVfw
https://youtu.be/R0M-eoZt9I4
https://youtu.be/XVxrUZJTUXE
https://youtu.be/tmoDEXtRpE4
https://youtu.be/COvuH-2-xlE

Seriously this is not the Islam which I know. May Allah save us from Bidah and keep us on the right path. Ameen!
​

Umar (ra) establishing the regular congregational taraweeh shows how something not done in Prophets (saw) time can accord to Quran and sunnah too if there is a need for it in later times and it is not something reprehensible, as the hadith prohibiting bidah says 'someone who innovates something reprehensible in this deen' (other hadiths omitting the word 'reprehensible' needs to be put into context with the one that doesn't omit it)...

Therefore if a mujtahid Scholar opines there is a need for an act of worship to be established thats a good innovation then that's allowed in Islam and if such an act gets the support of the majority of the fuqaha then that further becomes a proof that it is accepted by Allah too as the Quran and hadith says the consensus can never be wrong

See one of my links and posted articles above, it explains how good innovations does not contradict the hadith 'every bidah is in jahannum' (or words to that effect), it explains it using the different definitions of the word 'bidah'.

 

[M.I.A.]

If this is too hard to understand then let me give you a very simple example. Suppose you are offered your favorite dessert and you are told that it may be piousness. Would you eat it? No person in right mind will eat it because there is chance that you may loose your life. Same in the case with these newly inventions in the religion. We are warning you to stay away from these because these are innovations and can lead you to misguidance. The best approach is to play safe and only follow what Quran and hadiths tell us to do. If you choose the other path then surely that's the path of those who are misguided, those who think God forgot to mention some aspects of the religion or those who think Prophet Muhammad PBUH forgot to tell us the importance of celebrating his birthday. Anyways choice is yours.

...see, i know you didnt mean to say that.

but, there it is..


how did the prophet pbuh die?

i think there is a typo in there also, but you didnt mean that either.

no offense to you in any case, although i know you have an appropriate rebuttal.. the world works on them.


it is often said, THEY CANT TAKE AWAY YOUR EDUCATION FROM YOU.

..i can tell you, they stripped it out of my very heart.

all i am is typos and regret.


our knowledge is so fragile that it is always ever going to be just one shout, before we are done.

i would have settled for a fast car but i dont know what it means.




besides, i like mawlid lights near christmas.. i suppose many people might find a familiarity in something different.

rather than be turned away from it.

because your all perfect anyway.. it might be a bit harder for you.



to be fair its not always a case of what you have, but sometimes rather more about what you do with it..


Say, "Would you teach Allah about your religion, and Allah knows whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth? And Allah is Ever-Knowing of everything."


..its out of context but lately i feel that i am the only one thats been screwing myself over. so id like to share.



so what if you feel like stimulating the economy a few times a year, maybe even a whole month.

what are to trying to do? create more work for people!! the audacity of it!

maybe even trying to hold on to bonds of kinship or strengthen them? that requires even more effort! ..i have no idea if that would make people like you.. i suppose it depends on the audience you are trying for.


Have you not considered that Allah knows what is in the heavens and what is on the earth? There is in no private conversation three but that He is the fourth of them, nor are there five but that He is the sixth of them - and no less than that and no more except that He is with them [in knowledge] wherever they are. Then He will inform them of what they did, on the Day of Resurrection. Indeed Allah is, of all things, Knowing.


its the only answer, because there are so many problems.

..having said all that, i tend to keep away from people so feel free to ignore my hypocrisy.

and work manual labour because they took away my knowledge from me..


your all so damn clever i learned to keep my mouth shut, i dont know how you do it!!!