Why I love jesus (Muslim version)

[Ümit]

I would like to add my perspective here, as someone who lived both an "open life"and a practising life. And when trying to understand Islam, I find simply reasoning that something is forbidden, as the sole explanation isn't sufficient when you are searching for depth in the heart of a religion. To me personally Islam is the most logical religion and almost everything forbidden comes from a place of logic or to not harm our minds or bodies. Now as someone who loved and appreciated music ( all genres ), let's speak about the generalised effect of the instrumentals .... there is that feeling of wanting to "dance" ," be wild" , "let loose" "let your hair down", let your body language "completely take over" right ? It stirrs emotions in your soul and deep within your head, which allows you to wonder and almost your alter ego comes out, it has the power to instantly change your state/mood and influence you to feel whatever ( more sexualised, act out of character ? ) trying my best to explain it. Now you may argue, that what about classical music which is softer, slower, and more relaxed, what's wrong with that .... well different strokes of the instruments again, speed of the instruments, still have that power to make you feel a type of way ? To summarise, these type of strong feelings are highly likely to distant you and further you away from God, and extremely likely to make you feel unIslamic things, definately increasing your chances in sinning and as a whole, just take you away from really focusing your mind on worship of God and the messafe of God. And I can hands on say this to be true. When I completely gave up listening to music, I became more inclined to listen to recitations of the Quran which were the most beautiful thing I ever heard, and gave me a REAL feeling of peace. I was more focused on learning about Islam and becoming a better person as a whole, more productive and doing things of meaning. I hope that helps in give a little insight.

Anyone who wants to add input is welcome.

One addition to this:
Music can contain contraversial lyrics or hidden messages without knowing.
İm pretty sure this happens to most of the people...multiple times to me:
A song İ loved listening to or even sang along for years...without realizing anything.
And then one day by coimcidence İ read the lyrics or the story behind it...and it turns out to be something İ do not want to be associated with at all. Or it is of course about sex or violence or whatever.

Music can be that powerful.

 

[whitedove]

That's actually an excellent point. It's a bit heavy to go into, but no longer a secret, even amongst non-Muslims that both music and Hollywood are pushing a Satanic agenda (this is nothing new, it has always been the way but now it's "hidden" or should I say "shown" in plain sight and in our faces. And like Umit says, it's ALL subliminal messages, designed to slyly corrupt and degrade the morality of the masses, lead us away from faith in our Creator, and ultimately destroy people and society. This is Satan's agenda. What better way for the Devil to influence millions and milions than through music and film, yes you are right a very powerful medium. Some of the main cleverly promoted areas, discreetly glamorised are sex, drugs, promiscuity and homosexuality. It's a very in depth topic which swerves off the original thread.

 

[Spiritlead]

I listened to a bit of the video. Like many Muslims you seem to be misunderstanding much about what Christians actually believe. Misunderstood or perhaps twisting Christian beliefs to suit your Muslim view ?

Could you please articulate more clearly what your points are without the “gangsta”.

Also can you clarify. Are you making this video in front of a church or Mosque? If indeed it is in front of a Church then you need to be showing more respect for people of other faiths.

 

[Spiritlead]

Thank you for your welcome.

What Bible verses can you identify that prove the message of Islam is the same as all the prophets ? Im sure for everyone you provide I can provide one to contradict.

I’ve read the Quran and I don’t find it to be a miraculous writing at all. I find it to be rambling, clumsy, repetitive and abrasive. And it has been proven by Orientalists that it is not accurately preserved. You are wrong about the Bible. In fact it is the most reliable and validated of all ancient writings. More ancient copies exist than any other ancient writing.

And in regard to music. As I said to Whitedove how sad and boring that life is just about following rules, “Thou Shalt Not”.

 

[Spiritlead]

Welcome to the forum.

In a nutshell because Allah and his messenger forbade it.

You might say well as an outsider looking in that doesn't sound like a compelling reason but to understand that response we need to take a step backwards and understand a little bit about Islam.

The message of Islam is the same as all the prophets, Worship Allah alone without partners. This is what Abraham taught, this is what Jesus taught, this is what Moses and Prophet Muhammad taught may peace be upon them all.

Each Prophet was given miracles to back the veracity of their claim. Moses performed many miracles by Allah's permission. Jesus performed many miracles by Allah's permission but because the message of the last and final Prophet Muhammad sallaho alayhi wa Salam would outlive him his miracle would too. The miracle he was given was the Quran

The Quran is such that if you were to gather everyone on earth and ask them to produce even a single chapter like it they would not be able to do so. The qurans language and eloquence, knowledge of history, scientific knowledge unknown in the 6th century, future prophecies that came true all of this points to the fact it came from the one who created us.

Not only is it miraculous but it has been preserved letter for letter as it was revealed 1400 years ago even the orientalists don't deny this. It's not like the bible where they chop and change versions with retranslation and addition/ deletion of verses.

So coming from this perspective if something is forbidden we believe with confidence that it was prohibited by the one who created the heavens and the earth.

That isn't to say we can't see wisdoms in what is prohibited. Abstaining from alcohol is a good example. The misery that drug has caused to humanity is clearly evident.

Music I can tell you that it distracts you from the remembrance of Allah, I could say it makes one heedless of the purpose of our Creation. How it manipulates the emotions and leads to adultery and I could keep going...

I could tell you all these things but end of the day we are Muslims. We believe Allah forbade it as it has been authentically transmitted from the Prophet sallaho alayhi wa Salam so we say We hear and we obey.

Thank you for your welcome.

What Bible verses can you identify that prove the message of Islam is the same as all the prophets ? Im sure for everyone you provide I can provide one to contradict.

I’ve read the Quran and I don’t find it to be a miraculous writing at all. I find it to be rambling, clumsy, repetitive and abrasive. And it has been proven by Orientalists that it is not accurately preserved. You are wrong about the Bible. In fact it is the most reliable and validated of all ancient writings. More ancient copies exist than any other ancient writing.

And in regard to music. As I said to Whitedove how sad and boring that life is just about following rules, “Thou Shalt Not”.

- - - Updated - - -

I would like to add my perspective here, as someone who lived both an "open life"and a practising life. And when trying to understand Islam, I find simply reasoning that something is forbidden, as the sole explanation isn't sufficient when you are searching for depth in the heart of a religion. To me personally Islam is the most logical religion and almost everything forbidden comes from a place of logic or to not harm our minds or bodies. Now as someone who loved and appreciated music ( all genres ), let's speak about the generalised effect of the instrumentals .... there is that feeling of wanting to "dance" ," be wild" , "let loose" "let your hair down", let your body language "completely take over" right ? It stirrs emotions in your soul and deep within your head, which allows you to wonder and almost your alter ego comes out, it has the power to instantly change your state/mood and influence you to feel whatever ( more sexualised, act out of character ? ) trying my best to explain it. Now you may argue, that what about classical music which is softer, slower, and more relaxed, what's wrong with that .... well different strokes of the instruments again, speed of the instruments, still have that power to make you feel a type of way ? To summarise, these type of strong feelings are highly likely to distant you and further you away from God, and extremely likely to make you feel unIslamic things, definately increasing your chances in sinning and as a whole, just take you away from really focusing your mind on worship of God and the messafe of God. And I can hands on say this to be true. When I completely gave up listening to music, I became more inclined to listen to recitations of the Quran which were the most beautiful thing I ever heard, and gave me a REAL feeling of peace. I was more focused on learning about Islam and becoming a better person as a whole, more productive and doing things of meaning. I hope that helps in give a little insight.

Anyone who wants to add input is welcome.

Seems a bit sad and boring to me. As I said to Essa Kiwi how sad and boring that life is just about following rules, “Thou Shalt Not”.

 

[Ümit]

I listened to a bit of the video. Like many Muslims you seem to be misunderstanding much about what Christians actually believe. Misunderstood or perhaps twisting Christian beliefs to suit your Muslim view ?

Could you please articulate more clearly what your points are without the “gangsta”.

Also can you clarify. Are you making this video in front of a church or Mosque? If indeed it is in front of a Church then you need to be showing more respect for people of other faiths.

Welcome to the forum Spiritlead,
What exactly do you think we misunderstand what Christians actually believe? Could you please elaborate that?
And which Christian belief are we twisting?

Please be a little more specific if you want an open and honoust discussion.
I think this person made this video neither in front of a church or mosque.

 

[Ümit]

[/QUOTE]

Thank you for your welcome.

What Bible verses can you identify that prove the message of Islam is the same as all the prophets ? Im sure for everyone you provide I can provide one to contradict.

I actually do not want to offend you or your religion but to give you a reaction on your post:

It is not the Bible that we use as a source to prove the message of Islam is the same as all the prophets. Allah already revealed that all prophets including Isa as (Jesus).

I’ve read the Quran and I don’t find it to be a miraculous writing at all. I find it to be rambling, clumsy, repetitive and abrasive. And it has been proven by Orientalists that it is not accurately preserved.

Please share your source with us.

You are wrong about the Bible. In fact it is the most reliable and validated of all ancient writings. More ancient copies exist than any other ancient writing.

without backing up, this claim is worthless. even the Thorah is more reliable than the Bible. You cannot honostly believe that when a piece of text is translated into another language, the new text is still "unchanged" or "original". and how many different official versions and translations of the Bible were in existance? here is the wiki page with the list of ONLY English versions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_Bible_translations...which one of them is the original one exactly and why?

And in regard to music. As I said to Whitedove how sad and boring that life is just about following rules, “Thou Shalt Not”.

In Islam, rules are basically there not just because Allah wants it that way...but it has a certain logic behind it.
Everything that is forbidden, is usually forbidden because it is harmfull in a certain way...either for the indiviual self physically or mentally...or for others, surroundings, nature or whatever.

Therefore, If God forbids us something...we immediately obey and believe, even though we do not know the background of it, but we do know that it is bad for us in a certain way.
You can still smoke if you want even though everyone strongly advices you not to...it is your life...but does that make your life more interesting?

 

[whitedove]

First of all I'm going to defend the brother in the video, it is not "gangsta" style, he is trying too hard to imitate an American accent and admittedly it comes off across as slightly off, that I will say, but his emphasis and tone is simply passion along with trying to accentuate on certain points. Had he not been exagerrating on the accent, we can safely say that it is a form of spoken word. Evidently the style as someone correctly hits on, is that it is meant to appeal to a younger audience.

Now to you spiritlead, I'm going to be blunt here, as you have been so charming and cute enough to be about your opinions of our Quran. And no offence ; but even a retarded person could establish that the video has been edited with the church behind, he is NOT physically standing inside the church ! There is nothingggggggggggg wrong WHATSOEVER with him having an image of the church behind him whilst his analysis of christianity IS the subject matter.

The outline of what he says in a more diplomatic and polite way is that there are parts of Christianity which are utterly ridiculous and make no sense and encourages to use logic and common sense on things. I shall include the lyrics of his piece so that you can read in black and white font and will make it easier. I have to say I did chuckle at the part about wearing the cross, absolutely absurd concept. I am not mocking, I want to make this clear. Even the entire Trinity is just such an odd thing to many Christians themselves. Anyhow will attach lyrics seperate.

What on earth are you on about, sad and boring life, didn't realise Christianity promoted raving it up as "living". No Islam isn't about just "not doing", it is about living the best life for yourself, can you clarify, which "don't" it is that bothers you so much exactly ? Darling if "your version" of doing is drinking, partying, sleeping with whoever, whenever" this always leads to depression of the soul. Why do you think there are so many with all the wealth they can get and "doing" all the "doing" they can do, and they are STILLLLLL NOT happy. They suffer psychological and internal confusion more than anybody else. Again I'm not entirely sure why you have linked the 2 together in terms of Islam being boring. It's you who is boring and small minded if you see it from that perspective. As there is sooooo much to enjoy in life in a CLEAN PURE way ; travel/nature/landscapes/scenery/beauty of the world across the atlas, so many hidden gems and untouched parts of the world along with endless activities/skills/hobbies to suit all on the spectrum (scuba diving, mountain climbing, hiking, skiing, painting, art, museums, history, boats, I mean really the list is endless, the joys and blessing of raising a family with one partner and being present in all steps of your kids life, sharing things in common with your community. I mean seriously the world is BEAUTIFUL and can be enjoyed in a clean (halal way ). If the few things which are forbidden ruin your vision to make the most of life, then I suggest broadening your horizons a little. Otherwise please go live your best life in booze, drugs, multiple partners and come back to us in a few years time and tell us how that has worked out for you, both health wise and mentally

Now your reference to Quran, I found that interesting you found it "clumsy, repetitive and the rest" , I'm not someone who followed Islam "just because I was born into it", in fact I had every reason not to love it. Sadly I didn't get on with my parents, and they didn't really teach us Islam at all, they were strict in a cultural way, could have very easily confused that with religion which we got zero education on. My search and love for Islam came in my very late teens/very early twenties, so trust me when I say I always looked into it, with a critical eye, not ready to be fed whatever "but to understand the root" of anything I learnt, and ask questions, truly understand it. So I assure you I'm not some sheltered little girl who hadn't been out, only been under her parents roof and ONLY ever knew Islam so you can rest assured I have no reason to be biased. Going back to the point, I GENUINELY find it strange you don't find the writing stunning. I studied English literature, and therefore passionate and can appreciate the beauty in delivery of writing. Now HONESTLY ... when I started reading the quran my instant perception was that it was perfection, beautifully written, captivating and that feeling in your soul when you read it is undeniable and like no other. It is poetic, stunning, and far from dull in any sense.

"I only watched a bit of the video" .... if you are going to criticise or delve into a topic, should you not be watching the entire thing ? Can we too assume then, that you also only read "a bit of the quran" and not the whole thing. Because people have a funny way of saying they read things, when if you read a couple/few pages that hardly counts.

Please do clarify how far into the Quran you have read? Now I respect you are entitled to your opinion. And if you do not see beauty and miracle in it's writing, then you are entitled to that. But sadly not everyone has the ability to appreciate beauty or good taste. I will give you an example ; have you heard the saying, money cannot buy class ... you get certain people who newly acquire millions and millions, but notice despite this if they are still dressed in a trashy cheap unattractive style because taste cannot be bought. This is how you get certain celebrities still dressing like they did in the hood, because it's a mindset.
In the same way here, I believe if you cannot recognise the beauty of the writing of the Quran Spiritlead, you never will sadly.


Surah Baqarah :
2.6 Indeed, those who disbelieve – it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them – they will not believe.

2.7 Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing, and over their vision is a veil. And for them is a great punishment.

2.17 Their example is that of one who kindled a fire, but when it illuminated what was around him, Allah took away their light and left them in darkness [so] they could not see.

2.18 Deaf, dumb and blind – so they will not return [to the right path].

So there you have it, you are closed up into actually taking in the truth.

My opinion.

Sent from Outlook

 

[eesa the kiwi]

Thank you for your welcome.

What Bible verses can you identify that prove the message of Islam is the same as all the prophets ? Im sure for everyone you provide I can provide one to contradict.

I’ve read the Quran and I don’t find it to be a miraculous writing at all. I find it to be rambling, clumsy, repetitive and abrasive. And it has been proven by Orientalists that it is not accurately preserved. You are wrong about the Bible. In fact it is the most reliable and validated of all ancient writings. More ancient copies exist than any other ancient writing.

And in regard to music. As I said to Whitedove how sad and boring that life is just about following rules, “Thou Shalt Not”.

- - - Updated - - -


Seems a bit sad and boring to me. As I said to Essa Kiwi how sad and boring that life is just about following rules, “Thou Shalt Not”.

What bible verse? Hmm let me think oh that's right how about the hundreds if not thousands of verses that state God is One. You going to bring verses to contradict that?

And please bring the orientalists and their evidence? I can claim the moon is made of cheese, its evidence that verifies truth.

And if I'm wrong about the bible you must have the original manuscript surely to prove your claim and those "more ancient copies" wouldn't contradict one another would they?

So when in the bible when the ten commandments are discussed your response is how sad and boring life is? Where is your respect to the one who created you,

The only clumsy ramblings I see here are your own posts

Peace be upon those who follow guidance.

 

[Spiritlead]

Welcome to the forum Spiritlead,
What exactly do you think we misunderstand what Christians actually believe? Could you please elaborate that?
And which Christian belief are we twisting?

Please be a little more specific if you want an open and honoust discussion.
I think this person made this video neither in front of a church or mosque.

Thankyou for your welcome Umit

What Christian beliefs do Muslims misunderstand or twist ? God The Son, Oneness of God, Trinity, reliability of the Bible, execution on the cross to name a few.

It certainly looks like a church to me Umit which I take to be disrespectful.

 

[Spiritlead]

I actually do not want to offend you or your religion but to give you a reaction on your post:

It is not the Bible that we use as a source to prove the message of Islam is the same as all the prophets. Allah already revealed that all prophets including Isa as (Jesus).

Please share your source with us.

without backing up, this claim is worthless. even the Thorah is more reliable than the Bible. You cannot honostly believe that when a piece of text is translated into another language, the new text is still "unchanged" or "original". and how many different official versions and translations of the Bible were in existance? here is the wiki page with the list of ONLY English versions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_Bible_translations...which one of them is the original one exactly and why?

In Islam, rules are basically there not just because Allah wants it that way...but it has a certain logic behind it.
Everything that is forbidden, is usually forbidden because it is harmfull in a certain way...either for the indiviual self physically or mentally...or for others, surroundings, nature or whatever.

Therefore, If God forbids us something...we immediately obey and believe, even though we do not know the background of it, but we do know that it is bad for us in a certain way.
You can still smoke if you want even though everyone strongly advices you not to...it is your life...but does that make your life more interesting?[/QUOTE]
Are you saying it is the Quran that is the source to prove the message of Islam? That is called circular reasoning or circular logic ! It is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with. It is reasoning that goes nowhere.

You wanted proof that its proven the Quran is not accurately preserved. In 1972 a large number of ancient Quranic manuscripts, dating from first century of Hijra were discovered in the Great Mosque of Sana’a (Yemen), which significantly differs from the present standard Quran. This is one, or is, the oldest Quran in existence. This shatters the orthodox Muslim belief that the Quran, as it has reached us today, is “the perfect, timeless, and unchanging Word of God”.

You seem confused. The Torah IS actually the Bible (Old Testament).

Being able to read the Bible in ones own / or multiple languages actually increases ones understanding of scriptures. In regards to multiple translations, this actually increases the reliability of correct understanding of scripture due to different perspectives on the same scripture. However we are all free to read the Bible in the original languages of Greek and Hebrew.

What about you? Do you read the Quran in Classical Arabic? Because most Muslims do not speak classical Arabic. So why the clumsy requirement to read something in a language you don’t even understand ?

Your link about Bible translations did not take me to a web site ?

And in regards to the oldest Bible manuscripts, more ancient copies exist than any other ancient writing, for example the Roman history of Julius Caesar, and others. Plus these copies cover a huge and wide geographic area that prevents them from being gathered together and falsified.

Let me remind you. Muslims do not have the original Quran. Why ? Because Uthman burnt all original copies ! Why did he do that ? What was he afraid of ? He was obviously afraid that different versions of “the miraculous Quran” were not being preserved accurately.

In regards to music, rules etc you say … “If God forbids something...you immediately obey and believe, even though we do not know the background of it,” Really ? do you not have the ability to think critically and exercise your own wisdom ?

 

[Spiritlead]

First of all I'm going to defend the brother in the video, it is not "gangsta" style, he is trying too hard to imitate an American accent and admittedly it comes off across as slightly off, that I will say, but his emphasis and tone is simply passion along with trying to accentuate on certain points. Had he not been exagerrating on the accent, we can safely say that it is a form of spoken word. Evidently the style as someone correctly hits on, is that it is meant to appeal to a younger audience.

Now to you spiritlead, I'm going to be blunt here, as you have been so charming and cute enough to be about your opinions of our Quran. And no offence ; but even a retarded person could establish that the video has been edited with the church behind, he is NOT physically standing inside the church ! There is nothingggggggggggg wrong WHATSOEVER with him having an image of the church behind him whilst his analysis of christianity IS the subject matter.

The outline of what he says in a more diplomatic and polite way is that there are parts of Christianity which are utterly ridiculous and make no sense and encourages to use logic and common sense on things. I shall include the lyrics of his piece so that you can read in black and white font and will make it easier. I have to say I did chuckle at the part about wearing the cross, absolutely absurd concept. I am not mocking, I want to make this clear. Even the entire Trinity is just such an odd thing to many Christians themselves. Anyhow will attach lyrics seperate.

What on earth are you on about, sad and boring life, didn't realise Christianity promoted raving it up as "living". No Islam isn't about just "not doing", it is about living the best life for yourself, can you clarify, which "don't" it is that bothers you so much exactly ? Darling if "your version" of doing is drinking, partying, sleeping with whoever, whenever" this always leads to depression of the soul. Why do you think there are so many with all the wealth they can get and "doing" all the "doing" they can do, and they are STILLLLLL NOT happy. They suffer psychological and internal confusion more than anybody else. Again I'm not entirely sure why you have linked the 2 together in terms of Islam being boring. It's you who is boring and small minded if you see it from that perspective. As there is sooooo much to enjoy in life in a CLEAN PURE way ; travel/nature/landscapes/scenery/beauty of the world across the atlas, so many hidden gems and untouched parts of the world along with endless activities/skills/hobbies to suit all on the spectrum (scuba diving, mountain climbing, hiking, skiing, painting, art, museums, history, boats, I mean really the list is endless, the joys and blessing of raising a family with one partner and being present in all steps of your kids life, sharing things in common with your community. I mean seriously the world is BEAUTIFUL and can be enjoyed in a clean (halal way ). If the few things which are forbidden ruin your vision to make the most of life, then I suggest broadening your horizons a little. Otherwise please go live your best life in booze, drugs, multiple partners and come back to us in a few years time and tell us how that has worked out for you, both health wise and mentally

Now your reference to Quran, I found that interesting you found it "clumsy, repetitive and the rest" , I'm not someone who followed Islam "just because I was born into it", in fact I had every reason not to love it. Sadly I didn't get on with my parents, and they didn't really teach us Islam at all, they were strict in a cultural way, could have very easily confused that with religion which we got zero education on. My search and love for Islam came in my very late teens/very early twenties, so trust me when I say I always looked into it, with a critical eye, not ready to be fed whatever "but to understand the root" of anything I learnt, and ask questions, truly understand it. So I assure you I'm not some sheltered little girl who hadn't been out, only been under her parents roof and ONLY ever knew Islam so you can rest assured I have no reason to be biased. Going back to the point, I GENUINELY find it strange you don't find the writing stunning. I studied English literature, and therefore passionate and can appreciate the beauty in delivery of writing. Now HONESTLY ... when I started reading the quran my instant perception was that it was perfection, beautifully written, captivating and that feeling in your soul when you read it is undeniable and like no other. It is poetic, stunning, and far from dull in any sense.

"I only watched a bit of the video" .... if you are going to criticise or delve into a topic, should you not be watching the entire thing ? Can we too assume then, that you also only read "a bit of the quran" and not the whole thing. Because people have a funny way of saying they read things, when if you read a couple/few pages that hardly counts.

Please do clarify how far into the Quran you have read? Now I respect you are entitled to your opinion. And if you do not see beauty and miracle in it's writing, then you are entitled to that. But sadly not everyone has the ability to appreciate beauty or good taste. I will give you an example ; have you heard the saying, money cannot buy class ... you get certain people who newly acquire millions and millions, but notice despite this if they are still dressed in a trashy cheap unattractive style because taste cannot be bought. This is how you get certain celebrities still dressing like they did in the hood, because it's a mindset.
In the same way here, I believe if you cannot recognise the beauty of the writing of the Quran Spiritlead, you never will sadly.


Surah Baqarah :
2.6 Indeed, those who disbelieve – it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them – they will not believe.

2.7 Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing, and over their vision is a veil. And for them is a great punishment.

2.17 Their example is that of one who kindled a fire, but when it illuminated what was around him, Allah took away their light and left them in darkness [so] they could not see.

2.18 Deaf, dumb and blind – so they will not return [to the right path].

So there you have it, you are closed up into actually taking in the truth.

My opinion.

Sent from Outlook

Hello Whitedove.
I disagree. I found the “gansta” delivery to be sarcastic and disrespectful in tone, particularly to Christians. I expect better than that in a comparative religion forum.
Like wise Whitedove. Your reply comes across as rude, insecure and defensive. If we are to have further correspondence, can you please try harder to moderate this.

What is wrong in him in him having an image of the church behind him during his ‘analysis’ of Christianity ? I suspect you would be one of the first to take offence Whitedove, if it was a Christian criticising Islam in front of a Mosque. Unfortunately the internet is full of people (Christians, Muslims, etc) all doing the same thing in a spirit of disrespect. Lets all call it out for what it is.

There are parts of Islam which are utterly ridiculous and make no sense and contrary to logic and common sense. I have to shake my head at the stupidity of walking around a funny square pagan temple 7 times! Throwing stones at a concrete pillar !, not to mention the scientific absurdities in the Quran .eg. ants talking to each other about Solomon. Ridiculous ! The Trinity “odd.” Not really. Plurality in Oneness is not that difficult to grasp. And wearing a cross as a reminder of the historical event ( fact) of what happened to Jesus. Nothing weird about these at all if you try to open your mind.
Who was talking about “drinking, partying and sleeping around … “? Not me. What about singing? Is that allowed ? Whistling ? Humming ? , tapping your fingers ?!

The Quran “stunning and beautiful” Nope. Not at all. I find Shakespeare far more lyrical and profound.

Coming back to the video I saw about three quarters of it. I got turned off the rest from his sarcastic and disrespectful tone.

I’ve read most of the Quran. What about you ? Considering you have such well defined opinions on the trinity and the cross, I presume you’ve read the New Testament ?? Have you ? Do you know the term “Trinity” is not even found in the Bible ?

I actually don’t think you respect my entitlement to my opinion at all considering how defensive and rude your tone is. Any way as I said earlier, if we are to continue communicating please try to moderate this.

“All of them have stubborn minds! They refuse to listen; they cover their eyes. They cannot see or hear or understand. If they could, they would turn to me, and I would heal them."
Mathew 13.15

 

[Spiritlead]

What bible verse? Hmm let me think oh that's right how about the hundreds if not thousands of verses that state God is One. You going to bring verses to contradict that?

And please bring the orientalists and their evidence? I can claim the moon is made of cheese, its evidence that verifies truth.

And if I'm wrong about the bible you must have the original manuscript surely to prove your claim and those "more ancient copies" wouldn't contradict one another would they?

So when in the bible when the ten commandments are discussed your response is how sad and boring life is? Where is your respect to the one who created you,

The only clumsy ramblings I see here are your own posts

Peace be upon those who follow guidance.

You seem confused. Christians have always believed God is One. Did you not know that?
“The scribe said to Him, Right, Teacher; You have truly stated that He is One, and there is no one else besides Him “ Mark 12:32

You wanted proof that its proven the Quran is not accurately preserved. In 1972 a large number of ancient Quranic manuscripts, dating from first century of Hijra were discovered in the Great Mosque of Sana’a (Yemen), which significantly differs from the present standard Quran. This is one, or is one of the oldest Quran in existence. This shatters the orthodox Muslim belief that the Quran, as it has reached us today, is “the perfect, timeless, and unchanging Word of God”.

As a said to Umit all are free to read the Bible in the original languages of Greek and Hebrew and there are more ancient Biblical manuscript copies than any other ancient writing, for example the Roman history of Julius Caesar, and others. Plus these copies cover a huge and wide geographic area that prevents them from being gathered together and falsified.

Let me remind you. Muslims do not have the original Quran. Why ? Because Uthman burnt all original copies ! Why did he do that ? What was he afraid of ? He was obviously afraid that different versions of “the miraculous Quran” were not being preserved accurately.

Feel free to quote any “Biblical contradictions.”

The logic of the 10 commandments is obvious to me. The logic of not listening to music makes no sense. As I asked Whitedove … Are you aloud the sing ? hum ? tap your fingers … The God Christians worship is a God of liberty and freedom. Because we are in a personal and intimate relationship with God we are led by our conscience should something not be beneficial. Of course, with that we follow logical traditions and principals that experience and logic proves to be beneficial. This is different from Islam where you follow a format of dead and authoritarian commands simply because your Quran or Mullahs tell you.

“Clumsy ramblings “ All of my replies are based in logic Esa Kiwi. I understand you may feel challenged and uncomfortable, but please do your best to be respectful in any further replies.

Oh and by the way, 1 x 1 x 1 = 1

Peace be upon those who follow Christ.
”And the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus”. Philippians 4:7

 

[eesa the kiwi]

You seem confused. Christians have always believed God is One. Did you not know that?
“The scribe said to Him, Right, Teacher; You have truly stated that He is One, and there is no one else besides Him “ Mark 12:32

You wanted proof that its proven the Quran is not accurately preserved. In 1972 a large number of ancient Quranic manuscripts, dating from first century of Hijra were discovered in the Great Mosque of Sana’a (Yemen), which significantly differs from the present standard Quran. This is one, or is one of the oldest Quran in existence. This shatters the orthodox Muslim belief that the Quran, as it has reached us today, is “the perfect, timeless, and unchanging Word of God”.

As a said to Umit all are free to read the Bible in the original languages of Greek and Hebrew and there are more ancient Biblical manuscript copies than any other ancient writing, for example the Roman history of Julius Caesar, and others. Plus these copies cover a huge and wide geographic area that prevents them from being gathered together and falsified.

Let me remind you. Muslims do not have the original Quran. Why ? Because Uthman burnt all original copies ! Why did he do that ? What was he afraid of ? He was obviously afraid that different versions of “the miraculous Quran” were not being preserved accurately.

Feel free to quote any “Biblical contradictions.”

The logic of the 10 commandments is obvious to me. The logic of not listening to music makes no sense. As I asked Whitedove … Are you aloud the sing ? hum ? tap your fingers … The God Christians worship is a God of liberty and freedom. Because we are in a personal and intimate relationship with God we are led by our conscience should something not be beneficial. Of course, with that we follow logical traditions and principals that experience and logic proves to be beneficial. This is different from Islam where you follow a format of dead and authoritarian commands simply because your Quran or Mullahs tell you.

“Clumsy ramblings “ All of my replies are based in logic Esa Kiwi. I understand you may feel challenged and uncomfortable, but please do your best to be respectful in any further replies.

Oh and by the way, 1 x 1 x 1 = 1

Peace be upon those who follow Christ.
”And the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus”. Philippians 4:7

Slow clap 1 x 1 x1 =1 why didn't I think of that

Bet you sure felt clever writing that. Too bad in that equation you are denying the 3 distinct persons of the trinity and are a heretic according to the nicean creed

I'll reply later when it's not nearly time for jumuah. I didn't get a notification. The like was an accident btw

 

[Ümit]

Are you saying it is the Quran that is the source to prove the message of Islam? That is called circular reasoning or circular logic ! It is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with. It is reasoning that goes nowhere.

I didn't say that...that is your wishfull thinking. If you read my post carefully, I said:

In Islam, rules are basically there not just because Allah wants it that way...but it has a certain logic behind it.
Everything that is forbidden, is usually forbidden because it is harmfull in a certain way...either for the indiviual self physically or mentally...or for others, surroundings, nature or whatever.

Therefore, If God forbids us something...we immediately obey and believe, even though we do not know the background of it, but we do know that it is bad for us in a certain way.
You can still smoke if you want even though everyone strongly advices you not to...it is your life...but does that make your life more interesting?

to put it in an example:
an adult usually has more knowledge and experience then a child. So if a parent forbids a child something, (and we disregard that the parent can forbid something out of his own outcome), then there is some wisdom behind is...even when that wisdom is not yet explained.
If the child is wise, he has one of the two options:
either he is interested in the wisdom behind it and investigates the wisdom behind it and obeys the parent.
or
he is not interested in the wisdom behind it, but trusts the parent for his wisdom and obeys the parent.

if the child is not wise he will not obey the parent and face the consequences.

so the rules in the Quraan have a certain logic behind it. if you are interested in that, you can use scientific methods to investigate...but you do not have to.

You wanted proof that its proven the Quran is not accurately preserved. In 1972 a large number of ancient Quranic manuscripts, dating from first century of Hijra were discovered in the Great Mosque of Sana’a (Yemen), which significantly differs from the present standard Quran. This is one, or is, the oldest Quran in existence. This shatters the orthodox Muslim belief that the Quran, as it has reached us today, is “the perfect, timeless, and unchanging Word of God”.

this shatters nothing. People have been copying by hand from a copy from a copy from a copy of the Quraan...it is only natural that at one point small errors start to sneak into the text during that process...don't forget the copying process have been done by humans...and humans make mistakes. Uthman noticed this in time, collected all copies with deviations and burned them. This one I have no knowledge of. thanks for pointing it out I will try to find out the story behind this.

You seem confused. The Torah IS actually the Bible (Old Testament).

I am not confused.

"The Bible" is actually a misleading term.

The Thorah is the book that has been revealed to Moses as. at a certain point in time all copies of it have been destroyed, and later on someone (I forgot the name and too lazy to look it up right now) restored it almost completely for as far as he could remember it. after that, it kapt unchanged. The Thorah is pretty pure nowadays, but unfortunately not for 100%.

The Bible is actually a collection of different books.
The gospels are a part of the Bible that has been revealed to Jesus as and it is pretty much the same as the Thorah (old testament)
The new testament part of the Bible are written by people who (you call those "inspired by God") have known, seen, heard Jesus as in his lifetime and reported their observations. human made texts and only partially reliable and true...we Muslims would call those texts "the Ahadeeth of Jesus as"...
But because you Christians shifted Jesus to a God-position...those normal ordinairy people are automatically shifted in a "prophet position" (or in your terms "inspired by God", because Jesus = God) and their text therefore are sacred and part of the Bible.

If the ahadeeth of Muhammad sas was a part of the Quraan, then the Quraan would not be reliable either.

Being able to read the Bible in ones own / or multiple languages actually increases ones understanding of scriptures. In regards to multiple translations, this actually increases the reliability of correct understanding of scripture due to different perspectives on the same scripture. However we are all free to read the Bible in the original languages of Greek and Hebrew.

You are confusing stuff.
The Quraan is NOT forbidden to translate...you are free to read a translation of the Quraan in any version and language you like FOR STUDYING PURPOSES. if you want to know the meaning of a verse you may read the translation of it...one thing to keep in mind is that that translated copy of the Quraan can no longer be called the Quraan...it is just a book and does not have the same status.
The five daily prayers and other forms of salaat must be made in original language Arabic...all other prayers (duaa) the way Christians understand the word "prayer" can be made in any language, everywhere and in any state and condition.

Me too read the Quraan in as many different languages and versions to have a better understanding of it...I even use tafsirs...but on top of that...I have the original Quraan in original language.

What about you? Do you read the Quran in Classical Arabic? Because most Muslims do not speak classical Arabic. So why the clumsy requirement to read something in a language you don’t even understand ?

read above. to have a reference. to always having the option to fall back to the original. other translations have the tendency of drifting away from each other in time...but when you always keep the original, you have a much better understanding.
it is not a matter of either this or that....it is a matter of having both...that is the big difference of this "clumsiness".

Your link about Bible translations did not take me to a web site ?

just look up yourself how many versions of the Bible exist...I am sure wou will find out.

And in regards to the oldest Bible manuscripts, more ancient copies exist than any other ancient writing, for example the Roman history of Julius Caesar, and others. Plus these copies cover a huge and wide geographic area that prevents them from being gathered together and falsified.

hadeeth of Jesus as you mean...not a manuscript of the gospels.

Let me remind you. Muslims do not have the original Quran. Why ? Because Uthman burnt all original copies ! Why did he do that ? What was he afraid of ? He was obviously afraid that different versions of “the miraculous Quran” were not being preserved accurately.

yes he was afraid of that. if you have 100 copies of the quraan...and 80 of them are the same and the other 20 have deviations in them...you can assume that the 80 copies are still original...so you collect the other 20 and burn them...and that is what Uthman did. so you are talking only about those worthless copies of the Quraan...not "all original copies"

In regards to music, rules etc you say … “If God forbids something...you immediately obey and believe, even though we do not know the background of it,” Really ? do you not have the ability to think critically and exercise your own wisdom ?

read above....we can think critically...but we also can trust Gods word on it. We have the option to choose. That is the difference...I am sure you secretly understand that, however you try to push it away...but that is your choice.

 

[Ümit]

Slow clap 1 x 1 x1 =1 why didn't I think of that

Bet you sure felt clever writing that. Too bad in that equation you are denying the 3 distinct persons of the trinity and are a heretic according to the nicean creed

I'll reply later when it's not nearly time for jumuah. I didn't get a notification. The like was an accident btw

This perfectly illustrates how he himself twists and turns everything in his own convenience.

With this logic, let us count the amount of greek deities:
We have Zeus, Poseidon, Hermes, Hera, Hades, Apollo, Athena, Aphrodite...
1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1.....=.....(Drumming sound) 1!!!

The Greeks also have only one God...isn't that amazing?


PS...Brittanica about Polytheism:

Polytheism, the belief in many gods.
...
Sometimes above the many gods a polytheistic religion will have a supreme creator and focus of devotion, as in certain phases of Hinduism (there is also the tendency to identify the many gods as so many aspects of the Supreme Being); sometimes the gods are considered as less important than some higher goal, state, or saviour, as in Buddhism; sometimes one god will prove more dominant than the others without attaining overall supremacy, as Zeus in Greek religion.

In other words, in Christianity the son is created by the father, therefore a form of polytheism

 

[Spiritlead]

Slow clap 1 x 1 x1 =1 why didn't I think of that

Bet you sure felt clever writing that. Too bad in that equation you are denying the 3 distinct persons of the trinity and are a heretic according to the nicean creed

I'll reply later when it's not nearly time for jumuah. I didn't get a notification. The like was an accident btw

The Nicean Creed is clear that there is only One God … But with three distinct aspects. One object with different properties. Plurality in Oneness.
Likewise three distinct aspects of The One God has been revealed.

In the next life we will all have revelation of God in His infinite aspects.

Muslims blaspheme God for simplifying his dynamic nature.

 

[Spiritlead]

I didn't say that...that is your wishfull thinking. If you read my post carefully, I said:


to put it in an example:
an adult usually has more knowledge and experience then a child. So if a parent forbids a child something, (and we disregard that the parent can forbid something out of his own outcome), then there is some wisdom behind is...even when that wisdom is not yet explained.
If the child is wise, he has one of the two options:
either he is interested in the wisdom behind it and investigates the wisdom behind it and obeys the parent.
or
he is not interested in the wisdom behind it, but trusts the parent for his wisdom and obeys the parent.

if the child is not wise he will not obey the parent and face the consequences.

so the rules in the Quraan have a certain logic behind it. if you are interested in that, you can use scientific methods to investigate...but you do not have to.


this shatters nothing. People have been copying by hand from a copy from a copy from a copy of the Quraan...it is only natural that at one point small errors start to sneak into the text during that process...don't forget the copying process have been done by humans...and humans make mistakes. Uthman noticed this in time, collected all copies with deviations and burned them. This one I have no knowledge of. thanks for pointing it out I will try to find out the story behind this.

I am not confused.

"The Bible" is actually a misleading term.

The Thorah is the book that has been revealed to Moses as. at a certain point in time all copies of it have been destroyed, and later on someone (I forgot the name and too lazy to look it up right now) restored it almost completely for as far as he could remember it. after that, it kapt unchanged. The Thorah is pretty pure nowadays, but unfortunately not for 100%.

The Bible is actually a collection of different books.
The gospels are a part of the Bible that has been revealed to Jesus as and it is pretty much the same as the Thorah (old testament)
The new testament part of the Bible are written by people who (you call those "inspired by God") have known, seen, heard Jesus as in his lifetime and reported their observations. human made texts and only partially reliable and true...we Muslims would call those texts "the Ahadeeth of Jesus as"...
But because you Christians shifted Jesus to a God-position...those normal ordinairy people are automatically shifted in a "prophet position" (or in your terms "inspired by God", because Jesus = God) and their text therefore are sacred and part of the Bible.

If the ahadeeth of Muhammad sas was a part of the Quraan, then the Quraan would not be reliable either.

You are confusing stuff.
The Quraan is NOT forbidden to translate...you are free to read a translation of the Quraan in any version and language you like FOR STUDYING PURPOSES. if you want to know the meaning of a verse you may read the translation of it...one thing to keep in mind is that that translated copy of the Quraan can no longer be called the Quraan...it is just a book and does not have the same status.
The five daily prayers and other forms of salaat must be made in original language Arabic...all other prayers (duaa) the way Christians understand the word "prayer" can be made in any language, everywhere and in any state and condition.

Me too read the Quraan in as many different languages and versions to have a better understanding of it...I even use tafsirs...but on top of that...I have the original Quraan in original language.


read above. to have a reference. to always having the option to fall back to the original. other translations have the tendency of drifting away from each other in time...but when you always keep the original, you have a much better understanding.
it is not a matter of either this or that....it is a matter of having both...that is the big difference of this "clumsiness".

just look up yourself how many versions of the Bible exist...I am sure wou will find out.

hadeeth of Jesus as you mean...not a manuscript of the gospels.

yes he was afraid of that. if you have 100 copies of the quraan...and 80 of them are the same and the other 20 have deviations in them...you can assume that the 80 copies are still original...so you collect the other 20 and burn them...and that is what Uthman did. so you are talking only about those worthless copies of the Quraan...not "all original copies"

read above....we can think critically...but we also can trust Gods word on it. We have the option to choose. That is the difference...I am sure you secretly understand that, however you try to push it away...but that is your choice.

Actually you did imply that the Quran is the source to prove the message of Islam. Essa the Kiwi said the same thing in post 25. He said … “In a nutshell because Allah and his messenger forbade it.” … And in post 27 you said … “It is not the Bible that we use as a source to prove the message of Islam is the same as all the prophets, Allah already revealed that all prophets including Isa as (Jesus).” I will say it again. Your basis is Islam as your reference to prove Islam ! Because how else would Allah reveal it ? Not by logic. It has to be the Quran or hadith. So Islam is still your reference to “prove the message of Islam.” So as I said, this is circular reasoning.

“People copying the ‘miraculous’ Quran by hand ?!” Human transmission of the ‘divine’Quran with “small errors” ! So is the Quran not the literal ,perfect, timeless, and unchanging Word of God ? Even your Quran says of itself … “ It is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Quran) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption). “ Quran 15:9.

The researcher by the name of Gerd Puin who was an expert on Classical Arabic and ancient scriptures said … “There are dialectal and phonetical variations that don't make any sense in the text"… He went on to say … "The Arabic script is very defective - even more so in the early stages of its literature." What this means is the Quran has been distorted, perverted, revised, modified and corrected, and textual alterations had taken place over the years purely by human hands.
Puin went on to say … “The Quran claims for itself that it is ‘mubeen’, or clear. But if you look at it, you will notice that every fifth sentence or so simply does not make sense…the fact is that a fifth of the Quranic text is just incomprehensible.”
The core belief of Muslims that the Quran is the eternal, unaltered word of God is now clearly visible as a great hoax and not only this, the Quranic claim that nobody can alter the words of God is also a fake.
Regarding Uthman. So why did he burn your original texts ? What you forget about the time of Uthman and the period of early Caliphs was Islam grew as political movement and not just as a religious movement. Their were different interpretations and translations at the time and Uthman needed to keep the people unified.

Uthman knew that Muslims in different regions were arguing that they can recite the Qur'an better, and they had differences between them. The motive was the desire to bring consensus among the Muslims on the basis of a single Qur'an text. It was not to destroy the other manuscripts because they were considered unreliable but rather to prevent future dissension among the inhabitants of the different provinces.
Uthman's action was drastic ! Not one of the other codices was exempted from the order that they be destroyed. It can only be assumed that the differences in reading between the various texts was so vast that the Uthman saw no alternative to an order for the standardising of one of the texts and the annihilation of the rest. Not as you claim there were just “minor errors”. If there had not been serious differences between them, why would he thus have destroyed such cherished copies of what all Muslims believe to be the revealed Word of God? The fact that none of the other texts was spared shows that none of the codices agreed with any of the others in its entirety. There must have been serious textual variants between the texts to warrant such action. There must have been so many serious variant readings between the texts themselves that the Caliph saw only one solution - the establishment of one of these as the official text for the whole Muslim community and the elimination of the others.
Further more this decision wasn’t based on the wisdom of God but on one man’s choice.

Thanks for your attempt to educate me on the Bible. As a Christian I understand the Bible far better than you. I’ve been reading it and studying it for years. I bet you have never even read it. ? Oh and the Prophet you are thinking of is Ezra.
The New Testament Gospels are simply eye witness accounts of what Jesus said and did. Similar in style and reliability as your Sahih hadith.
You are wrong that the gospels are a part of the Bible that was “revealed to Jesus” and is the same as the Thorah. Muslims have some mistaken belief that there is some mysterious Injel / or Gospel of Jesus. But Muslims can never explain what “this Injil” actually said and what happened to it. It was Uthman and Muslims that burnt their early manuscripts, not Christians. So what and where is this mysterious Injil “Gospel of Jesus”?
YES I AGREE. the Bible are human made texts that were written by men. And yes ! Similar to your Sahih hadith.
But as I said earlier the Bible texts are the most reliable of all ancient texts. more ancient copies exist than any other ancient writing, for example the Roman history of Julius Caesar, and others. Plus these copies cover a huge and wide geographic area that prevents them from being gathered together and falsified.
Furthermore the New Testament is more reliable than your Sahih hadith due to the fact the early development of the hadith was a time of civil war which would have produced a politically motivated influence on the hadith development.
That’s the main difference between Muslim claims about the Quran and Christian claims about the Bible. Christians accept that while the Godly principles outlined in the Bible are literal and timeless, minor errors can occur in the human transmission.
However the Islamic claim about the Quran being a miraculous literal ,perfect, timeless, and unchanging revelation from God without error, is a problem for Muslims, as the Quran is obviously influenced by man.

You are contradicting yourself in saying the Quran is not forbidden to translate. You criticise the Christian Bible for “different translations” but yet you state you read the Quran in many different languages and versions. Why do you justify being able to read different translations of the Quran, but not the Bible? You state you have the original Quran in the original language. As I said Christians also have the Bible in the original language.

You are wrong in assuming “Christians shifted Jesus to a God-position.” The original believers were Jews who believed in One God. The term ‘Christian’ did not even exist at the time. So why did orthodox One God believing Jews come to the belief of God The Son?
God The Son means “The Inheritor”. The Son of God is both the eminence and the inheritor of the fullness of The Father as prophesied in the Jewish Torah / Tenakh. These prophesies are often referred to as the “Messianic prophesies”.
Because the Jews knew their Torah / Tenakh and they knew that Christ was the fulfilment of the Messianic prophesies.
Examples of the Mesianic prophesies from the Jewish Torah / Tenakh are -
Isaiah 7:14; Genesis 12:1-3; 22:18; Genesis 49:10; 2 Samuel 7:12-16; Micah 5:2, Hosea 11:1; Jeremiah 31:15;Isaiah 11:2; Isaiah 40:3-5; Malachi 3:1.
So, no. Christians did not shift Jesus to a God-position.

You say the five daily prayers and other forms of salaat be made in the original language of Arabic? Why do you have to parrot a language that you don’t understand? Why would God care. Does God not understand other languages ?

 

[Spiritlead]

This perfectly illustrates how he himself twists and turns everything in his own convenience.

With this logic, let us count the amount of greek deities:
We have Zeus, Poseidon, Hermes, Hera, Hades, Apollo, Athena, Aphrodite...
1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1.....=.....(Drumming sound) 1!!!

The Greeks also have only one God...isn't that amazing?


PS...Brittanica about Polytheism:


In other words, in Christianity the son is created by the father, therefore a form of polytheism

Zeus, Poseidon, Hermes, Hera, Hades, Apollo, Athena, Aphrodite = 1 ? Sure why not !? Ive got no problem with that.

The only problem here is Muslim simplicity in their concept of God. Twisting a view of God into basic addition is unintelligent. God is awesome and dynamic and anything less is shirk! …blasphemy !

You refer to Hinduism and Buddhism. I believe Hindus and Buddhists have more an accurate and sophisticated view of God than Muslims do.

You are wrong by saying “in Christianity the son is created by the father”. You obviously don’t understand Christianity. Christians believe Christ is the emanance of The Father. Not created by The Father. I refer to the analogy of the sun. The sun emanates both heat and light. But all are one.

Plurality in Oneness is not that hard to grasp if you try.

 

[eesa the kiwi]

Bump