A Fundamental Problem with Abrahamic Religions. How can we resolve this?

AabiruSabeel · Sep 25, 2021

DanRaleigh said:
I will answer toyour questions soon. Can I know your viewpoint on this as well? Assume you arethe God(God exists) and you created the universe and beings in the universe. Ifso, do you think you would have also created an eternal hell for a finite crime? I will never doit, and I can certainly say that so many human beings out there will say the same. So for me, it shows that there are so many human beings out therewho are more compassionate than God, if God exists. I see that as another fundamental issue.

How can we see human beings are more compassionate than God? What'syour viewpoint on this, and can I know the explanation given by God to create an eternal hell?

Your question has been clarified here:

DanRaleigh · Sep 25, 2021

AabiruSabeel said:
Your question has been clarified here:

Thanks for sharing the link. There’s a problem with that explanation. For me to help you see my point of view, I will have to ask you this question now. Let’s assume that Jesus is the Son of God and Christians were telling the truth to us. So, assume, except Christians, we all are having false beliefs.

You are a born Muslim (I assume) and if you are a born Muslim, you will have a unique worldview. Since you and other Muslims as in general have a unique worldview, what kind of actions do you think Christians will have to take, in order to make you and the whole Muslim world understand that Jesus is the Son of God or in other words, what will make you convinced that the beliefs and practices of yours and other Muslim people around the world are false?

AabiruSabeel · Sep 25, 2021

It seems like you haven't watched the video that I linked above, and other videos that I linked in my previous post. You're back to square one.

DanRaleigh · Sep 26, 2021

I watched all the videos. Dr. Zakir was explaining the Muslim view on that. But, I think it should be apparent to you that Christians are rejecting that explanation, and it's not because their leaders/people are corrupted. I will reply to Ümit's earlier questions as well once I get a reply to this. So, my question is, if the beliefs of Christians are right, what will make you convinced that the beliefs and practices of yours and other Muslim people around the world are false?

Abz2000 · Sep 26, 2021

Well,
First of..... Gabriel didn't tell the prophet :saws: everything on day one, and there were many monotheist Christians settled in Arabia at the time.
There's not much point in hypothesising how waraqah in nawfal's personal biases might have been ruffled ... if ... since we can waste a lot of time making up fictional scenarios and not really get anywhere in terms of productivity and positivity.

We could easily say: what if it was previously believed that 2+2=5, and that equation was correct.... Then someone came along and falsely claimed that 2+2=4......
Well the new claim would need some convincing pointers, and Muhammad :saws: was showered with pointers, as is the case with messages from God, and the logical sense in what he taught soundly surpasses and confounds previously held false presumptions, opinions and ideas.

Re falsely held opinions: say for instance, that previous scientific research by some caused them to falsely opine that human sperm consisted of miniature fully formed human beings in liquid suspension, if it was a widely held belief, then a more convincing argument would be needed to convince the common individul that the formation takes place in later stages.....

..... Btw,

Click to enlarge:

2105758-Roald-Dahl-Quote-You-ll-never-get-anywhere-if-you-go-about-what.jpg

What if Tony Blair was an alien who was trying to assist the decepticons in their attempt to eat up planet earth, and in the meantime, eat people's ears as a source of energy, how would you convince people that they are wrong in being incredulous of the story?

DanRaleigh · Sep 27, 2021

Abz2000 said:
First of..... Gabriel didn't tell the prophet everything on day one, and there were many monotheist Christians settled in Arabia at the time.
There's not much point in hypothesising how waraqah in nawfal's personal biases might have been ruffled ... if ... since we can waste a lot of time making up fictional scenarios and not really get anywhere in terms of productivity and positivity

I know that the question that I asked “what will make you convinced that Jesus is the Son of God and beliefs of Christians are true?” is difficult to answer (I still hope to see your answer). Is it because, as a born Muslim, there's nothing convincing in their claim and the evidence they provide you?

Now, if God/Farther of Jesus, exists as per the claim made by Christians if you are a born Muslim, is it possible for you to find those evidence or answers to your questions, by listening to what Church leaders are saying or reading the Bible or looking at the universe, stars or how marvelous is the human body? Under these circumstances, if the claim made by Christians is true, but you are not Christian, who is responsible for this? Is it you?

On the other hand, if God exists as per the claim made by Christians, can you see whether their God taking any meaningful /logical actions to help you understand his existence? What’s your viewpoint on this?

Abz2000 · Sep 27, 2021

DanRaleigh said:
I know that the question that I asked “what will make you convinced that Jesus is the Son of God and beliefs of Christians are true?” is difficult to answer (I still hope to see your answer). Is it because, as a born Muslim, there's nothing convincing in their claim and the evidence they provide you?

Now, if God/Farther of Jesus, exists as per the claim made by Christians if you are a born Muslim, is it possible for you to find those evidence or answers to your questions, by listening to what Church leaders are saying or reading the Bible or looking at the universe, stars or how marvelous is the human body? Under these circumstances, if the claim made by Christians is true, but you are not Christian, who is responsible for this? Is it you?

On the other hand, if God exists as per the claim made by Christians, can you see whether their God taking any meaningful /logical actions to help you understand his existence? What’s your viewpoint on this?

There's only one God, I don't recognize any God other than the One who originated the heavens and the earth, if "their god" is a different one, then it's a lousy fake.

Dude, you're an old timer on the forums (unless someone else uses the same username) so you should have some background idea of how it works. Don't you find it a ridiculous notion - to even try and convince a sane person that a man is his own co-eternal only begotten son. Same time, same entity, same value, not made, begotten, but co-eternal, come on dude, you're better than that aren't you? Words do have a meaning, don't they?

You can calculate God's logic for at least the lower heaven -up to a certain extent - with a computer, a school-child can tell you when a weight will hit the ground from a height -including trajectory, and a NASA scientist can compute the physical requirements for getting to mars.
But I don't think God could truthfully explain to all three combined (the computer, the school-child, and the NASA scientist) how he can be his own only begotten son, and God doesn't lie.
Please man, it's ridiculous, and you keep giving it to us as a foundation to start from and a base to structure the remainder of the matrix on, and it's a blatantly empty foundation. Bloody hell it's like an adaption of the emperor's new clothes, the pope's nicean confusion.

Screenshot_2021-09-27-14-24-08-371_com.uc.browser.en.jpg

confuse

/kənˈfjuːz/
confuse
/kənˈfjuːz/
verb
verb: confuse; 3rd person present: confuses; past tense: confused; past participle: confused; gerund or present participle: confusing
make (someone) bewildered or perplexed.
"past and present blurred together, confusing her still further"
Similar:
bewilder
baffle
mystify
bemuse
perplex
puzzle
confound
befog
nonplus
disconcert
throw
set someone thinking
flummox
discombobulate
confusticate
faze
stump
beat
fox
floor
fog
buffalo
wilder
gravel
maze
cause to be at a stand
distract
pose
obfuscate
bewildering
baffling
difficult (to understand)
unclear
perplexing
puzzling
mystifying
mysterious
disconcerting
ambiguous
misleading
inconsistent
contradictory
unaccountable
inexplicable
impenetrable
unfathomable
above one's head
beyond one
complex
complicated
involved
intricate
convoluted
labyrinthine
Byzantine
wildering
Opposite:
enlighten
clear
make (something) more complex or less easy to understand.
"the points made by the authors confuse rather than clarify the issue"
Similar:
complicate
muddle
jumble
garble
make complex
make (more) difficult
blur
obscure
make unclear
cloud
obfuscate
embroil
Opposite:
simplify
identify wrongly; mistake.
"a lot of people confuse a stroke with a heart attack"
Similar:
mix up
muddle up
confound
misinterpret as
mistake for
take for
Opposite:
distinguish
Origin

Middle English (in the sense ‘rout, bring to ruin’):
from Old French confus, from Latin confusus, past participle of confundere ‘mingle together’ (see confound).
Originally all senses of the verb were passive, and therefore appeared only as the past participle confused ; the active voice occurred rarely until the 19th century when it began to replace confound .

Ümit · Sep 27, 2021

DanRaleigh said:
I will answer toyour questions soon. Can I know your viewpoint on this as well? Assume you arethe God(God exists) and you created the universe and beings in the universe. Ifso, do you think you would have also created an eternal hell for a finite crime? I will never doit, and I can certainly say that so many human beings out there will say the same. So for me, it shows that there are so many human beings out therewho are more compassionate than God, if God exists. I see that as another fundamental issue.

How can we see human beings are more compassionate than God? What'syour viewpoint on this, and can I know the explanation given by God to create an eternal hell?

as explained in the video, to understand this, your knowledge about Islam should be expanded a little more. it has interfaces with many other topics.
one of them is the topic free will for example. if you understand why free will is so important for us humans you would understand that thanks to free will we have a higher rank than angels, and thanks to free will we will get in heaven...if you want we can discuss in another thread how important this free will is.

But to obtain that true free will...there has to be a real choice...we should be able to actually choose between good and bad...if we all somehow (lets say for a silly reason) were not be able to choose for the bad because the people meant for the hell were not created...only the people for heaven were created) then there was no actual choice to make in the first place...which meant we didn't have actual free will....you understand how this interact with each other hopefully.

So, if there was not the bad to choose from...or we could somehow not choose for it...then there was no actual free will.
Therefore Hell must exist.

second part of the question is why forever.
Allah asked us during the event of Alas "Am I not your God?"
we responded "no you are".

The problem here is...when God asked us this question, we were witnessing God ourselves in front of us...so you cannot deny that question we witness His presence ourselves...but would we also give the same answer if we didn't witness the presence of God in front of us? God knows the answer to this question...but we don't...so coming to this world is a test for ourselves (not for God)...can we or can we not find God on ourselves? that is the test...that is our purose of life...if we pass it is Heaven for ever...if we fail it is hell forever...if Hell wan't forever, then this test is useless..then passing or failing the test would eventually lead to the same outcome...that wouldn't be fair...

Hope it is a little bit more clear now.

ajazz · Sep 28, 2021

Your argument is based on false information and assumptions.

"Assume on the very first day when Gabriel speaks to prophet Muhammad tells him that Jesus is not the Son of God; he is a prophet sent by Allah who is the God."

Why assume? We know what Angel Gabriel said to Prophet Muhammad (saw).

The first time Angel Gabriel spoke to Prophet Muhammad (saw) he never mentioned anything about Jesus.

Prophet Muhammad (saw) had the habit of meditating in a cave in Mount Hira (near Mecca), Gabriel suddenly appeared to him and said, “Read!”
Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h) at first thought that he was expected to read actual script, which, being illiterate, he was unable to do, so he answered, “I cannot read”. But the angel said a second time,
“Read!”; and again Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h) replied, “I cannot read”.
At this Gabriel (paraphrasing the Prophet)“…seized and pressed me to himself until all strength went out of me. ‘Read!’ the awesome voice commanded again; then he released me…” and Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h) then received the first lines of the Qur’an.

Recite in the name of thy lord who created,
Created man from a clot;
Recite in the name of thy lord,
Who taught by the pen,
Taught man what he knew not.

Nothing about Jesus or son of God here.

Since prophet Muhammad has no clue who this intelligence is, he goes to a Christian leader to clarify this matter (God spoke to them first and they are the best people to know about their God than anyone else).

He did not go to any Christian leader, he went to his wife Khadija.

And she went to her cousin who was a Christian scholar not a leader his name was Waraqah ibn Nawfal.
He practiced the pure form of monotheism in the pre-Islamic era and
used to write Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew, and hence he was well versed in Gospels.

This very fact tells us that Prophet Muhammad (saw) was of rational mind and so he sought confirmation for his experience.
which Waraqah ibn Nawfal confirmed that indeed it was Angel Gabriel, same angel whom Allah sent to the Prophet Moses (pbuh).

Waraqah said, 'That is the same angel whom Allah sent to the Prophet Moses. Should I live till you receive the Divine Message, I will support you strongly.'" (Bukhari 4:55:605.)

So here what kind of response we can expect from the Christian leader? Will that leader tell prophet Muhammad that the claim made by the intelligence is true? Obviously, you would know that the reply would never be a positive one.

There is no response from any Christian leader and none expected because prophet Muhammad (saw) did not seek any confirmation from them nor consulted them.
Hardly any body knew about this incident at that time except few including his wife and her cousin.

Regardless of the reply, assume further that prophet Muhammad ends up in contacting so many Christian leaders as well to get a better understanding of this controversy. What will their reaction would be?

What controversy? There was none,
Why you keep assuming? put forward some evidence instead.
And he did not contact any Christian leaders.
You are making false assumptions without evidence.

I like to know, based on what reasoning prophet Muhammad came to the conclusion that Allah is the God and Jesus is just a prophet sent by Allah? is it because of the claim made by the intelligence itself? If an intelligence told this to prophet Muhammad, does that mean that the intelligence lied to prophet Muhammad (by telling Jesus is a prophet and Allah is the God)?

The personal contact with Angle Gabriel and the fact that a Christian scholar confirming it that indeed it was the same same angel whom Allah sent to the Prophet Moses hence he needed no further confirmation.

In fact later on Jewish scholar of Torah by the name of Al-Hosayn ibn Salam whom People considered him a rabbi and who later converted to Islam.
confirmed the claim of Prophet Muhammad (saw).

"The Prophet agreed and invited prominent Jews to visit him.
Then he asked them, “What is the status of Al-Hosayn ibn Salam among you?” They replied, “He is our leader and our rabbi.”

The Prophet (peace be upon him) asked, “If you come to know that he has accepted Islam, would you accept Islam also?” They said unanimously, “God forbid! He would not accept Islam. May God protect him from accepting Islam.”

At this point, Abdullah (Al-Hosayn) ibn Salam came out from the room and announced: “O, The assembly of Jews! Be conscious of God and accept what Muhammad has brought. By God, you certainly know that he is the Messenger of God and you can find prophecies about him and mention of his name and characteristics in your Torah. I for my part declare that he is the true Messenger of God...”"

https://bit.ly/3zL0hvt

This conflict of beliefs/claims, is a huge problem in Abrahamic religions.

No such problem exist rather there is difference and commonality among Abrahamic religions, With Islam being the most strict and pure monotheist religion amongst the three.

Also, imagine the situation if I tell Muslim people and Christian people today that Leonardo is the God. Further, that Allah is not the God and Jesus is not the Son of God either. What will they think of me?)

If you make such claim I will ask for evidence.
"Burden of proof lies with the one who makes the claim."

Now I make a claim that Only God as described in the Noble Quran is the true God i.e. Allah.

Here is my proof...

"Rational, logical argument with scientific evidence for existence of Allah"

https://www.quora.com/What-makes-Islam-a-rational-religion/answer/Ajazz-Shake

In prophet Muhammad's case, how did prophet Muhammad come to the conclusion that Allah is the God and Jesus is not the Son of God? And how he came to know that the intelligence was not lying?

Already answered above
The fact that whole of Araba converted to Islam means Prophet Muhammad (saw) proved to the people that indeed he was a true prophet.

Therefore, because of this issue, either we have to say that someone deceived prophet Muhammad or if not we can say that someone has deceived Christian leaders. One of these assumptions has to be true.

Don't depend on assumptions

Here is the evidence for Quran as word of God.

https://www.quora.com/Who-wrote-the-Quran-2/answer/Ajazz-Shake

Here is evidence for Jesus is not son of God.

https://ehrmanblog.org/is-the-trinity-in-the-bible/
https://ehrmanblog.org/tag/son-of-god/

To fix this issue, let's say that someone says that the Christianity was created by Satan and they were deceived Satan.

No Muslims claim such thing,
The true teaching of Jesus (pbuh) were from Allah (swt) later on Christians scholars and church changed and corrupted the teaching of Jesus to suit their own agenda.

But Allah did not say anything to Christian leaders (till the 7th century and even up to this day, he totally neglected the issue) and instead of fixing the issue, he used prophet Muhammad and worked with him for 24 years (had enough time to fix it) to spread the word about the Quran. By doing so, he made the situation worst since now Christians and Muslim people have a reason to argue and kill each other as well based on religious beliefs. Therefore, if we take this hypothesis to fix the issue, this hypothesis tells us that Allah has no knowledge or an intelligence to resolve human issues, other than creating more and more conflicts or if not, this whole story implies that an intelligence was deceiving prophet Muhammad. How can we explain these controversies? If so, based on what reasoning?

This is Slippery Slope argument!

You are making false conclusions because of your lack of understanding of Islam and its teachings.

If Allah wanted he would have made everybody Muslims.

"If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed ,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe!” [Noble Quran -10:99]

So if Allah wants he can fix all the issues that exist on this earth.
But our life on this earth is meant to be with issues so that we can make choices.

Because our life on this earth is test and we go through this test by using our free will.

“Verily, We shall test you with some fear, and hunger, and with some loss of wealth, lives, and offspring. So give good news to those who are patient. Those who say, when inflicted by hardship, ‘Verily to Allah we belong, and verily to Him shall we return,’ Upon them is the blessings of Allah and His mercy. And they are the rightly guided.”(Surah Al-Quran 2:155-157)

I think you need to study Islam properly but you must set aside your confirmation bias.

Here is something to expand your perspective.

For what purpose would Allah have created us?

https://www.quora.com/For-what-purpose-would-Allah-have-created-us/answer/Ajazz-Shake

Why are there so many religions?

https://www.quora.com/Why-are-there-so-many-religions-1/answer/Ajazz-Shake

And Allah knows best.

Have a nice day.

.

DanRaleigh · Sep 29, 2021

Abz2000 said:
There's only one God, I don't recognize any God other than the One who originated the heavens and the earth, if "their god" is a different one, then it's a lousy fake.

Dude, you're an old timer on the forums (unless someone else uses the same username) so you should have some background idea of how it works. Don't you find it a ridiculous notion - to even try and convince a sane person that a man is his own co-eternal only begotten son. Same time, same entity, same value, not made, begotten, but co-eternal, come on dude, you're better than that aren't you? Words do have a meaning, don't they?

I agree with you. When we analyze this situation, we can see that the troubling questions that you and skeptics have as in general about Christianity, the Bible, or Christian religious leaders cannot answer (if God exists, only God can answer). Therefore, if you are not a Christian, you will not agree with certain claims made by Christians and I understand your perspective. But then when a Christian (or a skeptic) tries to make sense of Islam, they have the same issue. For instance, one of the questions that were troubling non-believers is that "how can a sane person thinks that food and stones can greet?" Even if you say that God spoke to Prophet Muhammad and he performed Miracles back then, you can see that none of these help a person who never had these experiences or seen these miracles, to conclude that God was communicating with prophet Muhammad.

Unless you are born to a family that believes in a specific religion, the majority asks a thousand questions before coming to a conclusion due to the controversies that we see. Such a nature can be seen in human beings.

If God exists and if he knows that we are looking for answers, why God and angels are silent? (If I want to follow Islam by speaking to an angel, can I do that? If so, I don't have a reason to reject Islam)

If we can see God or angels, we all can agree that God and angels exist. If so, we don’t have to believe in his existence and angels, we know his existence and the existence of angels. God could have fixed the disbelief issue if needed.

If we can see heaven, then we can understand the existence of heaven. But we don't have these abilities. God could have solved this issue by creating us with such abilities. God haven't seen this as a solution to disbelieve in him.

If people from heaven can communicate with us, then also we can understand the existence of heaven. The existence of heaven would be obvious to all of us (I won’t be asking this question if so). Seems like even if we go to heaven, we will not gain such an ability, so parents can educate their children who are on Earth about heaven. Another issue that we as human beings can’t fix, but God hasn't seen this as a fix to resolve the issue related to disbelief.

If a prophet can live longer (let’s say 1000 years) and if angels are communicating with the prophet, we can still find answers to these troubling questions always. This is a problem related to the system God uses to deliver knowledge to humanity (God can easily fix the issue related to disbelief if needed, but we don't see this).

If God created this entire universe and all the beings, God can create angels in such a way where they can communicate with religious leaders at least. If so, he could have fixed the issue related to disbelief. But we don’t see this.

History reports that God and angels was communicating with people quite often in ancient times, but we can see that this communication has also been ended. (God could have fixed the disbelief issue if the communication never ended by giving logical answers)

If there was no such a last prophet, still God could have fixed the issue related to disbelief. We won't be having these controversies today if so. (He was not taking a logical decision here)

(It should be obvious to God that people cannot fix this mystery surrounding our religions)

If you think about all these, you would know that if God wants to fix the issue related to disbelief, he could have fixed it. If someone holds this belief, I totally agree with you. When we analyze all these controversies, how can we still say that God exists and God was behind human experiences?

DanRaleigh · Sep 29, 2021

Correction: If you think about all these, you would know that if God wants to fix the issue related to disbelief, he could have fixed it. If someone holds this belief, I totally agree with you. When we analyze all these controversies, how can we still say that God exists and God was behind human experiences, since this is a controversial stance. This implies that disbelief is also there in the world due to a decision that was taken by God or how do you explain this controversy?

Ümit · Sep 29, 2021

Pff Dan, Slowly I do not know what to think about you anymore...I mean...the questions you asked have been answered over and over again...yet, you are still in parrot mode repeating everything over and over again. Is it too difficult for you? or are you trolling us?

One last time I will try to answer everything...hope you will understand this time.
Here we go:

DanRaleigh said:
I agree with you. When we analyze this situation, we can see that the troubling questions that you and skeptics have as in general about Christianity, the Bible, or Christian religious leaders cannot answer (if God exists, only God can answer). Therefore, if you are not a Christian, you will not agree with certain claims made by Christians and I understand your perspective. But then when a Christian (or a skeptic) tries to make sense of Islam, they have the same issue. For instance, one of the questions that were troubling non-believers is that "how can a sane person thinks that food and stones can greet?"

You think we 'Muslim don't belong to the category of "sane person"? neither would we ever think that food and stones can greet. But if the Quraan says so...then we believe. It is a given in the Quraan...so there is no room for argument here.

DanRaleigh said:
Even if you say that God spoke to Prophet Muhammad and he performed Miracles back then, you can see that none of these help a person who never had these experiences or seen these miracles, to conclude that God was communicating with prophet Muhammad.

I gave you a challenge if you remember. From the science point of view, there is no evidence for the existence of God...but there is a Book which has been claimed to be divine...the Quraan...examine its origin...the Author....and your findings will carry you further in your investigations.

DanRaleigh said:
Unless you are born to a family that believes in a specific religion, the majority asks a thousand questions before coming to a conclusion due to the controversies that we see. Such a nature can be seen in human beings.

which is natural because there are a lot of aspects to be learned and understood first, before one can start to believe...it is not that easy. But one crucial part is that one has to be open minded...and to be honest to yourself.

DanRaleigh said:
If God exists and if he knows that we are looking for answers, why God and angels are silent? (If I want to follow Islam by speaking to an angel, can I do that? If so, I don't have a reason to reject Islam)

Because the whole purpose of life is to find your God by yourself...If the existence of God could be proven...then this whole life on Earth would be pointless.

DanRaleigh said:
If we can see God or angels, we all can agree that God and angels exist. If so, we don’t have to believe in his existence and angels, we know his existence and the existence of angels. God could have fixed the disbelief issue if needed.