Question Re: Islam & Christianity

[snakelegs]

Peace snakelegs:

But, unfortunately, many of us do judge the other based on religion, colour or nationality, etc., I don't think this can ever be prevented and we can only be responsible for how we, as individuals, behave towards others.

Peace,
Hana

i agree. we should honour each other's differences and respect them even tho we disagree.

 

[snakelegs]

as an agnostic, my position is that i don't know.
but there are times that i definitely feel a connection to god - for example when i behold the beauty in nature or hear beautiful music.
i doubt that i would ever want to join any religion. but i don't think that any religion is wrong and unworthy of respect.
i do have some problems with the proselytizing aspects of both of these religons. but i see that if most people felt like the majority here do, there would need be no problems between the 2.
still, i wonder what would happen if a muslim missionary and a christian missionary both came to your door at the same moment? (as far as i know, muslims don't practice this annoying custom).

 

[*Hana*]

still, i wonder what would happen if a muslim missionary and a christian missionary both came to your door at the same moment? (as far as i know, muslims don't practice this annoying custom).

I would serve them tea on the patio and lock myself inside. :giggling:

 

[snakelegs]

I would serve them tea on the patio and lock myself inside. :giggling:

;D :giggling: ;D :giggling: ;D ;D
what a great answer!

 

[arabianprincess]

interesting conversation!!! ppl

 

[glo]

For me, I am very interested in the earliest Christian movement (after Jesus ascended to Heaven but before Paul comes on the scene). I'm moving in the direction of the view that says Jesus did not teach Justification by Faith...

I love the story of The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector in Luke chapter 18:

9To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10"Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood up and prayed about[a] himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'

13"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'

14"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

I think that teaching says so much about Jesus. I am not sure Paul would have approved of the implications of this parable.

If one reads the story of Zacchaeus the tax collector in Luke 19 (a wonderful story!) Jesus says to him that 'Today salvation has come to his house' because Zacchaeus gives half of his possesions to the poor. Again, very unPauline!

What do you think?

Paul

Interesting post, Paul. I will have to ponder a while before I reply.

Not so long ago I really wanted to get a Bible which highlights Jesus' sayings ... but didn't really feel I could afford to buy a new one. So I took my little NT and started to highlight Jesus' words in the gospels with highlighter pen! :giggling:
I am not through yet, but he said a lot of stuff!

One of Jesus' own words that spring to mind is "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me."
(John 14:6)
Or "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved."
(John 10:7-9)
What is your take on that in the faith vs deeds debate? Is Jesus not saying here that you need to believe in him to be saved?

(Clearly, he also had strong words, and many, on the topic of good deeds ... but that's another conversation ... :statisfie )

Talk to you later?

Blessings.

 

[glo]

consensus here does seem to be that there is no reason why the 2 religions have to clash with each other as long as you can both respect the other path. but again, how can you respect it if you feel a need to change the other person?

I don't think we should feel the need to change other people.
I say that, knowing that it is difficult to do. After all, if you believe that you have found the truth, and all those people around you fail to see it ... that can be frustrating.

But if you truly believe that God will reveal himself to people, then you have no right to interfere with that process.
By all means, tell people about your faith, but don't force it on them ... and be sensitive! When they have made you a cup of the tea on the patio, and locked the door behind them, it may be a sign, that they are not ready to hear any more! :giggling:

By the end of the day, as I think Eric said somewhere in this thread, none of us know 100% that we are right - we just believe it! .
When I die, and my belief was right, I will be right with God; if it was not right I may be in trouble; if the atheists are right, my brain will go 'ping' and the lights will go out ... :X

Peace.

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

thanks for all your comments.
when your religions say they are The Truth, doesn't that automatically mean that other beliefs are untrue?
another thing i've often wondered about is why do you need to belong to a religion to believe in god and have a relationship with him? what is the purpose of a religion?

eace:
To fulfil your duty to the one who created you. That is the main reason islam is both accepted and followed. Also to avoid that scary pit known aswell which runs 70 yrs deep! There is only one creator, who created the way every creature moves/acts, analyse the ant and just attempt to explain its amazing ways. Analyse the universe and try to explain the way an atom came to be, something we cant even see. Chance is a possibility wiped out, infinite possibilities is just a lame excuse becoz we hav NO IDEA what there was before the universe so how do we kno there were other universes? I believe Islam is THE MOST logical and proven religion to date!
Main Reasons:

* its so Just (teaches a way of life), its just amazing
* Not one side of muhammad saws can you find a flaw in
* Not one controdiction when looking at context of the quran will u find!
* Too many scientific facts in the quran which hav been proven!
* It touches your heart in a miraculous way and causes u to shed tears!

eace:
​

 

[Trumble]

May I disagree here? To my knowledge Catholic Christians (the world's largest grouping) do not believe in guarenteed salvation. They think they are saved by faith and good works.

That's true of most Christians, not just Catholics. The general get-out is that, whatever you may have done, if you sincerely repent and accept Jesus then your sins will be forgiven.

I think that belief is required just as in Islam. That is one reason I could accept neither Islam or Christianity even though I have little problem with the idea of a God per se... I think that the idea that a God of infinite goodness either requires such belief, or indeed has any need to be worshipped, makes no sense at all. In Buddhism no such problems exists... what happens depends on your own effort, and there is no outside source to provide instant forgiveness. The only way to make up for previous bad deeds and thoughts is doing good deeds and having good thoughts.

 

[Paul Williams]

Interesting post, Paul. I will have to ponder a while before I reply.

One of Jesus' own words that spring to mind is "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me."
(John 14:6)
Or "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved."
(John 10:7-9)
What is your take on that in the faith vs deeds debate? Is Jesus not saying here that you need to believe in him to be saved?

(Clearly, he also had strong words, and many, on the topic of good deeds ... but that's another conversation ... :statisfie )

Talk to you later?

Blessings.

I look forward to your reply to the parables I quoted from Luke's gospel!

I'm not sure the passages in John you quote are directly relevant to Jesus' teaching about justification. Also I have heard that most biblical scholars do not regard the sayings of Jesus in the 4th gospel as verbatim reports, but more like the reflections and meditations of John many decades after the event.

Pax

Paul

 

[Paul Williams]

I think that belief is required just as in Islam. That is one reason I could accept neither Islam or Christianity even though I have little problem with the idea of a God per se... I think that the idea that a God of infinite goodness either requires such belief, or indeed has any need to be worshipped, makes no sense at all. In Buddhism no such problems exists... what happens depends on your own effort, and there is no outside source to provide instant forgiveness. The only way to make up for previous bad deeds and thoughts is doing good deeds and having good thoughts.[/QUOTE]

Salaam to you

I'm sure you have been asked this question before, but do you no see evidence of an intelligent Mind behind the universe? What I mean is physics and micro biology have revealed a universe of astonishing complexity and intricacy and beauty, where the so much is so finely tuned for life, doesn't it suggest a Creator to you?

Paul

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

none of us know 100% that we are right - we just believe it! .
When I die, and my belief was right, I will be right with God

lol i 100% believe im right, and it can be seen , faith is required to be right nex 2 Allah.

 

[Joe98]

….do you no see evidence of an intelligent Mind behind the universe...physics and micro biology have revealed a universe of astonishing complexity and intricacy…….doesn't it suggest a Creator to you?

None.

This would be the same Creator who:

Created pestilence to kill millions of people over the last 5,000 years.

Created storms and bad weather to kill millions more.

Allowed man to wage war and kill millions in history, and 20 million more in World War 1 and 50 million more in World War 2

More recently, killed 30,000 Muslins in an earthquake in Iran 3 years ago
Killed 250,000 people, mostly Muslims, in Tsunami in December 2004
Killed 80,000 people, mostly Muslims in Pakistan a few months ago

I don’t worship and God because there isn’t one.

Logically there could not be a God.

-

 

[Joe98]

….as Muslims., unlike the Jews and Christians who believe they will go to paradise without a doubt,

You are mistaken, Christians believe as follows. On judgement day you will stand before God.

You will be sent to paradise or to hell. Mostly good people go to paradise and bad people go to hell.

But it is by the grace of God. This means that bad people might be forgiven and sent to paradise and some good people might be sent to hell.

Christians believe that you cannot presume to know the will of God and that God might send you anywhere.

-

 

[north_malaysian]

i wonder what would happen if a muslim missionary and a christian missionary both came to your door at the same moment?

I will invite them inside for a discussion?

(as far as i know, Muslims dont practice this annoying custom).

The Tablighis do so, but only to Muslim houses. They're not so annoying too.

 

[north_malaysian]

But it is by the grace of God.

That's so Islamic.:rollseyes

 

[Dhulqarnaeen]

What should I call you snake? So uncomfortable to call you snake cause Islam never teach us to call someone with something thats not sounds nice and have a bad meaning . The teaching in Islam is so high and cant be matched by another religion. Cause Islam revealed for the humankind, forbid eachother to do sins, guilts and violence and tells eachother to do good things that can bring us to the peacefull happily life.If you feel Islam more comfortable, then everyone also have this feeling in their heart. Cause everyone have this fitroh (the basic purely natural genuine standard inscticnt that Allah give us into our heart) in each of them.Just like when you feel so so sad, heavy and when youre facing a lot of problems, then your fitroh will told to raise your face up to the sky, why? Cause there where our God position. He said in Quran His place is on the sky, so so high above the seventh sky and He is istiwa' fis sama'.Thats why when our heart feel heavy and sad, then our hearts will bring our face to look above just like we are trying to tell Him what we feel. And also when the animals feels thirsty cause there are no rainfall, they will also look above as if theyre begging so God with give them rain, its some of the signs that our God position is on the sky and this is what our prophet Muhammad -peace be upon Him- told in one hadits. Once he ever asked one little female slave, "where is Allah?" Then the slave told Him that Allah fis samaa'(on the sky), then the prophet told his friend (Utsman bin Maz'un ra), "free this girl cause shes muslimah". So my friend, this is your fitroh to choose Islam cause basically youre muslim since you have been bornth into this world. Rasulullah Muhammad said "All babies bornth as muslim, then their parents turn them into christian, jews and majusy". But the fitroh is in you my friend, and I hope its hidayah from Allah so you can hold Islam strongly in the future. And its also because Islams teaching is fit to every people on this world, Islam is the only teaching which make sense, and so easy to understand with our intelegency,Allah says in Quran :" Ta-Ha, We have not revealed unto thee (Muhammad) this Qur'an that thou shouldst be distressed, But only as an admonition to those who fear (Allah),A revelation from Him Who created the earth and the heavens on high. (Allah) Most Gracious is firmly established on the throne (of authority).(QS. Ta Ha 1-5). And no religion can match the teaching and the miracle of the Qur'an and nothing can make something as glorious as Quran, Allah says:"And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true."(Al Baqoroh 23).And if you try comparing the Quran with bible, then the bible is a long way behind. You will find a lot of contradictions in bible that no prieches in every churchs on this world can explain and make us satisfied, but you wont find something like these contradictions in Quran.And about your question, can Islam and Christian co-exist? Then we should say that its our destiny to accept that. If the question is "can we"? Then Islam says in Quran and sunnah, we cant. Cause Allah says He only accept Islam as the right religion, and Allah must be worshipped and we may not have another God to be worshipped, Quran said:"Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him." (Al Ikhlas, 1-4). So beside Islam then they will go forever to hell. But Now, since its our destiny that not every people on this earth open their heart to Islam, and we have to life side by side with the christian and other religions, then our prophet teach us to life peacefully with them as long they dont attacking, disturbing muslims. And in Muslims country, Christian and other religion ahlulkitab MAY NOT be not disturbed. Cause theyre under the agreement with the government, and our prophet Muhammad -shalallahu alaihi wasallam- said "whoever kill ahlul kitab(christian and jews) that have agreements with the government, then they will not enter the heaven". So the christian can life peacefully with muslim as long they respect eachother. And if they life in muslims country then their wealth, their blood, their family should be protected by the citizen and the government and may not be disturbed. This is the beauty of Islam, which have a high morality to humankind and bringing the human to only worship Allah cause He is the only God and He is the only one who deserved to be worshipped. Allahu A'lam bisshowab

 

[snakelegs]

What should I call you snake? So uncomfortable to call you snake cause Islam never teach us to call someone with something thats not sounds nice and have a bad meaning . The teaching in Islam is so high and cant be matched by another religion. Cause Islam revealed for the humankind, forbid eachother to do sins, guilts and violence and tells eachother to do good things that can bring us to the peacefull happily life.If you feel Islam more comfortable, then everyone also have this feeling in their heart. Cause everyone have this fitroh (the basic purely natural genuine standard inscticnt that Allah give us into our heart) in each of them.Just like when you feel so so sad, heavy and when youre facing a lot of problems, then your fitroh will told to raise your face up to the sky, why? Cause there where our God position. He said in Quran His place is on the sky, so so high above the seventh sky and He is istiwa' fis sama'.Thats why when our heart feel heavy and sad, then our hearts will bring our face to look above just like we are trying to tell Him what we feel. And also when the animals feels thirsty cause there are no rainfall, they will also look above as if theyre begging so God with give them rain, its some of the signs that our God position is on the sky and this is what our prophet Muhammad -peace be upon Him- told in one hadits. Once he ever asked one little female slave, "where is Allah?" Then the slave told Him that Allah fis samaa'(on the sky), then the prophet told his friend (Utsman bin Maz'un ra), "free this girl cause shes muslimah". So my friend, this is your fitroh to choose Islam cause basically youre muslim since you have been bornth into this world. Rasulullah Muhammad said "All babies bornth as muslim, then their parents turn them into christian, jews and majusy". But the fitroh is in you my friend, and I hope its hidayah from Allah so you can hold Islam strongly in the future. And its also because Islams teaching is fit to every people on this world, Islam is the only teaching which make sense, and so easy to understand with our intelegency,Allah says in Quran :" Ta-Ha, We have not revealed unto thee (Muhammad) this Qur'an that thou shouldst be distressed, But only as an admonition to those who fear (Allah),A revelation from Him Who created the earth and the heavens on high. (Allah) Most Gracious is firmly established on the throne (of authority).(QS. Ta Ha 1-5). And no religion can match the teaching and the miracle of the Qur'an and nothing can make something as glorious as Quran, Allah says:"And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true."(Al Baqoroh 23).And if you try comparing the Quran with bible, then the bible is a long way behind. You will find a lot of contradictions in bible that no prieches in every churchs on this world can explain and make us satisfied, but you wont find something like these contradictions in Quran.And about your question, can Islam and Christian co-exist? Then we should say that its our destiny to accept that. If the question is "can we"? Then Islam says in Quran and sunnah, we cant. Cause Allah says He only accept Islam as the right religion, and Allah must be worshipped and we may not have another God to be worshipped, Quran said:"Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him." (Al Ikhlas, 1-4). So beside Islam then they will go forever to hell. But Now, since its our destiny that not every people on this earth open their heart to Islam, and we have to life side by side with the christian and other religions, then our prophet teach us to life peacefully with them as long they dont attacking, disturbing muslims. And in Muslims country, Christian and other religion ahlulkitab MAY NOT be not disturbed. Cause theyre under the agreement with the government, and our prophet Muhammad -shalallahu alaihi wasallam- said "whoever kill ahlul kitab(christian and jews) that have agreements with the government, then they will not enter the heaven". So the christian can life peacefully with muslim as long they respect eachother. And if they life in muslims country then their wealth, their blood, their family should be protected by the citizen and the government and may not be disturbed. This is the beauty of Islam, which have a high morality to humankind and bringing the human to only worship Allah cause He is the only God and He is the only one who deserved to be worshipped. Allahu A'lam bisshowab

thanks for your reply.
so you are saying that even though you are convinced that you are right and they are wrong, it is possible for both to live together in mutual respect.
if only everyone would realize that we can all co-exist in peace even though we may have very strong disagreements!
snake to me is not a bad meaning because i like snakes.

 

[Muslim Knight]

thanks for your reply.

snake to me is not a bad meaning because i like snakes.

Snakes are creepy.

 

[Paul Williams]

None.

This would be the same Creator who:

Created pestilence to kill millions of people over the last 5,000 years.

Created storms and bad weather to kill millions more.

Allowed man to wage war and kill millions in history, and 20 million more in World War 1 and 50 million more in World War 2

More recently, killed 30,000 Muslins in an earthquake in Iran 3 years ago
Killed 250,000 people, mostly Muslims, in Tsunami in December 2004
Killed 80,000 people, mostly Muslims in Pakistan a few months ago

I don’t worship and God because there isn’t one.

Logically there could not be a God.

-

Are you really sure? I note that you avoided answering my question about evidence for Mind behind the universe.

What do me make of the fact that the world we live in is only fruitful because it's given basic scientific constitution is of a very special, very finely-tuned character. You can shrug your shoulders and say, 'Well, that's just the way it happens to be. We're here because we're here and that's it'. That doesn't seem to me to be a very rational approach to the issue. Imagine the following story. You are about to be executed. Your eyes are bandaged and you are tied to the stake. Twelve highly-trained sharp shooters have their rifles levelled at your heart. They pull the trigger, the shots ring out - you've survived! What do you do? Do you shrug your shoulders and say, 'Well, that's the way it is. No need to seek and explanation of this. That's just the way it is'. That's surely not a rational response to what's going on. I think that there are only two rational explanations of that amazing incident. One is this. Many, many, many executions are taking place today and just by luck you happen to be the one in which they all miss. That's the rational explanation. The other explanation, is, of course, that the sharp shooters are on your side and they missed by choice. In other words there was a purpose at work of which you were unaware.

You see how that parable translates into thinking about a finely-tuned and fruitful universe. One possibility is that maybe there are lots and lots of different universes, all with different given physical laws and circumstances. If there were lots and lots of them (and there would really have to be rather a lot) then just by chance, in one of them, the laws and circumstances will be such as to permit the development of carbon-based life. But, of course, that's the one in which we live, because we couldn't appear anywhere else. The other possibility that there is more going on than has met the eye and the sharp shooters are on our side. That translates into the idea that this is not just any old universe. Rather it is a universe which is a creation which has been endowed by its Creator with just those finely-tuned given laws and circumstances that will make its history fruitful. It is the fulfilment of a purpose.

In reference to the the evil actions of men, the free-will defence argues that despite the many disastrous choice people have made to go to war etc, a world of freely choosing beings is better than a world of perfectly programmed automata. in relation to physical evil (disease and disaster) there is a parallel 'free-process defence': that in his great act of creation, God allows the whole universe to be itself. Each created thing is allowed to behave in accordance with kits nature, including the due regularities which may be a part of its nature.

God no more expressly wills the growth of a cancer than he expressly wills the act of a murderer, but he allows both to happen. He is not the puppet master of either people or matter.

There is a Hadith which address these issues eschatologicaly which I'll dig out if you are interested. For me it is the best solution to the problem of theodicy I have read anywhere. Let me know if you are interested


pax

Paul