HeiGou, sometimes I am not as clear as I should be in some of my postings, sorry about that.
When I say creation, I mean all of creation, which is why I asked how far back into the equation you were going.
There is nothing in the Bible that suggests the fall of Satan occurred after the creation of man.
There is nothing in the Bible to suggest that Satan was created in such a way that it resulted in Satan being any more prone to sinning than any other early part of creation.
I do understand what you are saying about orchestrated events. However there is nothing in the Bible to suggest that the events that occurred in Satan’s fall were predestined in any way.
As to mans actions being all predestined, to come to that conclusion a person must make a lot of assumptions based on speculation.
I can understand that, as much of what I have concluded to be acceptable and probable is in a large part based on assumptions.
When you say God knows Johnny is weak minded, how does God know that?
If the answer is that God knows because God knows, then I will ask; what possible information could God be acting on to know that Little Johnny is weak minded?
I know that a child that is prone to lying will lie. If I wish to show the child that lying is wrong and then set up an event, that the child then lies about, did I predestine the child to lie?
What about while dealing with adults, would your answer be any different?
Answer this question in regard to your best assumptions, in a new born, is the soul created to inhabit the body, or, is the body created to house the soul?
I agree that many Christians will disagree with me, I say bring the biblical scripture to the table and we will talk about it.
Most people are linear thinkers (Or at least I hope that they are at least that. Saddly many don’t seem to even rise to that level.); they make assumptions where they shouldn’t.
Just because the last segment, of what a person ponders, results in a particular logical conclusion, that doesn’t always mean that the given results, are assumptions to be repeated in the next ponderings.
What do you make of this scripture?
Genesis 18
20 Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."
I will try to address this “But God knows all so the only way that He could not know is if He denied Himself that knowledge and I do not see how that works”.
Ezekiel 1
4 I looked, and I saw a windstorm coming out of the north—an immense cloud with flashing lightning and surrounded by brilliant light. The center of the fire looked like glowing metal, 5 and in the fire was what looked like four living creatures. In appearance their form was that of a man, 6 but each of them had four faces and four wings. 7 Their legs were straight; their feet were like those of a calf and gleamed like burnished bronze. 8 Under their wings on their four sides they had the hands of a man. All four of them had faces and wings, 9 and their wings touched one another. Each one went straight ahead; they did not turn as they moved.
10 Their faces looked like this: Each of the four had the face of a man, and on the right side each had the face of a lion, and on the left the face of an ox; each also had the face of an eagle. 11 Such were their faces. Their wings were spread out upward; each had two wings, one touching the wing of another creature on either side, and two wings covering its body. 12 Each one went straight ahead. Wherever the spirit would go, they would go, without turning as they went. 13 The appearance of the living creatures was like burning coals of fire or like torches. Fire moved back and forth among the creatures; it was bright, and lightning flashed out of it. 14 The creatures sped back and forth like flashes of lightning.
15 As I looked at the living creatures, I saw a wheel on the ground beside each creature with its four faces. 16 This was the appearance and structure of the wheels: They sparkled like chrysolite, and all four looked alike. Each appeared to be made like a wheel intersecting a wheel. 17 As they moved, they would go in any one of the four directions the creatures faced; the wheels did not turn about as the creatures went. 18 Their rims were high and awesome, and all four rims were full of eyes all around.
19 When the living creatures moved, the wheels beside them moved; and when the living creatures rose from the ground, the wheels also rose. 20 Wherever the spirit would go, they would go, and the wheels would rise along with them, because the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels. 21 When the creatures moved, they also moved; when the creatures stood still, they also stood still; and when the creatures rose from the ground, the wheels rose along with them, because the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels.
22 Spread out above the heads of the living creatures was what looked like an expanse, sparkling like ice, and awesome. 23 Under the expanse their wings were stretched out one toward the other, and each had two wings covering its body. 24 When the creatures moved, I heard the sound of their wings, like the roar of rushing waters, like the voice of the Almighty, like the tumult of an army. When they stood still, they lowered their wings.
In the above scripture, what assumptions would you feel comfortable making?
If I suggested, that when looking at the single four-faced creature, each face is an independent thinker, could you accept that?
If not, then why not?
If I said that it is possible that one of the faces held knowledge that one of the other faces didn’t have, could you accept that?
If not, then why not?
If I said the four faced creature was a single being, could you accept that?
If not, then why not?
If I said that the creature is an example of a being that is ”four in one”, could you accept that?
If not, then why?
Now of the above statements, I don’t claim to have the answers to any of it.
Of those that claim to know all the answers or even most of the answers, to what I have posted, I say first off, I think they are over estimating their knowledge and secondly, explain it to me with authority so that I can judge the reasonableness of what you believe.
As to your last point, if you have a tendency to turn right at the green light, even when you know you shouldn’t. Whose fault is it when you turn right at the green light, even though you knew you shouldn’t? Even if the green light is one God presented you with.
Thanks
Nimrod
When I say creation, I mean all of creation, which is why I asked how far back into the equation you were going.
There is nothing in the Bible that suggests the fall of Satan occurred after the creation of man.
There is nothing in the Bible to suggest that Satan was created in such a way that it resulted in Satan being any more prone to sinning than any other early part of creation.
I do understand what you are saying about orchestrated events. However there is nothing in the Bible to suggest that the events that occurred in Satan’s fall were predestined in any way.
As to mans actions being all predestined, to come to that conclusion a person must make a lot of assumptions based on speculation.
I can understand that, as much of what I have concluded to be acceptable and probable is in a large part based on assumptions.
When you say God knows Johnny is weak minded, how does God know that?
If the answer is that God knows because God knows, then I will ask; what possible information could God be acting on to know that Little Johnny is weak minded?
I know that a child that is prone to lying will lie. If I wish to show the child that lying is wrong and then set up an event, that the child then lies about, did I predestine the child to lie?
What about while dealing with adults, would your answer be any different?
Answer this question in regard to your best assumptions, in a new born, is the soul created to inhabit the body, or, is the body created to house the soul?
I agree that many Christians will disagree with me, I say bring the biblical scripture to the table and we will talk about it.
Most people are linear thinkers (Or at least I hope that they are at least that. Saddly many don’t seem to even rise to that level.); they make assumptions where they shouldn’t.
Just because the last segment, of what a person ponders, results in a particular logical conclusion, that doesn’t always mean that the given results, are assumptions to be repeated in the next ponderings.
What do you make of this scripture?
Genesis 18
20 Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."
I will try to address this “But God knows all so the only way that He could not know is if He denied Himself that knowledge and I do not see how that works”.
Ezekiel 1
4 I looked, and I saw a windstorm coming out of the north—an immense cloud with flashing lightning and surrounded by brilliant light. The center of the fire looked like glowing metal, 5 and in the fire was what looked like four living creatures. In appearance their form was that of a man, 6 but each of them had four faces and four wings. 7 Their legs were straight; their feet were like those of a calf and gleamed like burnished bronze. 8 Under their wings on their four sides they had the hands of a man. All four of them had faces and wings, 9 and their wings touched one another. Each one went straight ahead; they did not turn as they moved.
10 Their faces looked like this: Each of the four had the face of a man, and on the right side each had the face of a lion, and on the left the face of an ox; each also had the face of an eagle. 11 Such were their faces. Their wings were spread out upward; each had two wings, one touching the wing of another creature on either side, and two wings covering its body. 12 Each one went straight ahead. Wherever the spirit would go, they would go, without turning as they went. 13 The appearance of the living creatures was like burning coals of fire or like torches. Fire moved back and forth among the creatures; it was bright, and lightning flashed out of it. 14 The creatures sped back and forth like flashes of lightning.
15 As I looked at the living creatures, I saw a wheel on the ground beside each creature with its four faces. 16 This was the appearance and structure of the wheels: They sparkled like chrysolite, and all four looked alike. Each appeared to be made like a wheel intersecting a wheel. 17 As they moved, they would go in any one of the four directions the creatures faced; the wheels did not turn about as the creatures went. 18 Their rims were high and awesome, and all four rims were full of eyes all around.
19 When the living creatures moved, the wheels beside them moved; and when the living creatures rose from the ground, the wheels also rose. 20 Wherever the spirit would go, they would go, and the wheels would rise along with them, because the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels. 21 When the creatures moved, they also moved; when the creatures stood still, they also stood still; and when the creatures rose from the ground, the wheels rose along with them, because the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels.
22 Spread out above the heads of the living creatures was what looked like an expanse, sparkling like ice, and awesome. 23 Under the expanse their wings were stretched out one toward the other, and each had two wings covering its body. 24 When the creatures moved, I heard the sound of their wings, like the roar of rushing waters, like the voice of the Almighty, like the tumult of an army. When they stood still, they lowered their wings.
In the above scripture, what assumptions would you feel comfortable making?
If I suggested, that when looking at the single four-faced creature, each face is an independent thinker, could you accept that?
If not, then why not?
If I said that it is possible that one of the faces held knowledge that one of the other faces didn’t have, could you accept that?
If not, then why not?
If I said the four faced creature was a single being, could you accept that?
If not, then why not?
If I said that the creature is an example of a being that is ”four in one”, could you accept that?
If not, then why?
Now of the above statements, I don’t claim to have the answers to any of it.
Of those that claim to know all the answers or even most of the answers, to what I have posted, I say first off, I think they are over estimating their knowledge and secondly, explain it to me with authority so that I can judge the reasonableness of what you believe.
As to your last point, if you have a tendency to turn right at the green light, even when you know you shouldn’t. Whose fault is it when you turn right at the green light, even though you knew you shouldn’t? Even if the green light is one God presented you with.
Thanks
Nimrod
eace: