Atheism

[Fishman]

It would seem to me that Islam has controversy within itself;

Seven Heavens

some muslims on this forum beleive that the seven heavens is a miraculous revelation to the seven atmospherical layers of our planet, other muslims here disagree.

Splitting of the moon

Some muslims here subscribe to it being a miraculous event and again other muslims here (such recently in this thread) don't give it as much support as the others.

Yes, there is lots of controversy surrounding these things. I, having thought about how the seven Heavens comply with scientific facts for a long time, personally have a completely different interpretation of them than most Muslims, which actually complies with science. I can't post it here though, since it's long and complicated.

 

[root]

root, what is the p-value of a completely random cellular mutation?

I don't know:

85% of streakers have this in common. What is it?

;D

 

[Fishman]

I don't know:
;D

There are about 150 per generation. Most mutations are neutral, not harmful, and many of the harmful ones are also benificial in some environments, such as the dark-coloured wings of some peppered moths. Please do not listen to Harun Yahya's work on evolution, I can't warn you enough about how many lies, misquotes and straw-men it contains.

 

[Sabi]

Yes, there is lots of controversy surrounding these things. I, having thought about how the seven Heavens comply with scientific facts for a long time, personally have a completely different interpretation of them than most Muslims, which actually complies with science. I can't post it here though, since it's long and complicated.

Could you please post it to me privately, I would be interested to read it.
Jizakhallah Khair.

P.S. Alpha Dude! You the Man! With 4 madhabs and a controvercial 5th Islam was always a religion of tollerance with regards to interpretation, it is a very sad thing that the western totalitarian "my way or the high way" attitude has started to corrupt certain corners of the Ummah. But what Allah (SWT) has established none will damage but by the permission of Allah (SWT).

:brother:

P.P.S Root, I am not really a Muslim (capital M) more of a muslim (small m), so I am not sure if it is fair to use such an a-typical example like me to criticize Islam (capital I).

 

[root]

There are about 150 per generation. Most mutations are neutral, not harmful, and many of the harmful ones are also benificial in some environments, such as the dark-coloured wings of some peppered moths. Please do not listen to Harun Yahya's work on evolution, I can't warn you enough about how many lies, misquotes and straw-men it contains.

Impressive. Can you tell me the odds of a misfiring retrovirus insertion in the reproduction sytem of the female sex cells (gametes)?

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

With 4 madhabs and a controvercial 5th Islam was always a religion of tollerance with regards to interpretation, it is a very sad thing that the western totalitarian "my way or the high way" attitude has started to corrupt certain corners of the Ummah.

I wonder what this "Western totalitarian attitude" is that you're talking about?

Peace

 

[Sabi]

Crusaders

 

[Fishman]

Impressive. Can you tell me the odds of a misfiring retrovirus insertion in the reproduction sytem of the female sex cells (gametes)?

No. I'm not that smart! I learn these things when attempting to disprove creationism. I'm just as opposed to it as you are!

 

[root]

No. I'm not that smart! I learn these things when attempting to disprove creationism. I'm just as opposed to it as you are!

Nor am I

Sabi - P.P.S Root, I am not really a Muslim (capital M) more of a muslim (small m), so I am not sure if it is fair to use such an a-typical example like me to criticize Islam (capital I).

First and foremost I am here to engage in healthy debate. Not necessaerily to cticize but yes to be critical at times.

 

[Woodrow]

Is there evidence to support the existence of a Creator?

The key word here is evidence. Personaly I wish that the word proof would have been used instead. The concept of limiting ourselves to evidence and not proof, sends the messagement, that some of us may be hesitent to stand up and clearly say. "I KNOW ALLAH(swt) EXISTS"

Let us not settle for the mediocre that we have evidence, There can be evidence found for nearly any statement. Let us be certain enough to stand foreward and let it be known. We have proof, we have measurable facts.

Satement: Allah(set) Exists

PROOFS:
He has made his presence known

A. He has revealed Himself to mankind
1. Sacred writings speak of the existance of a God
2, Historicaly there have been verifiable people
that have had direct contact with him
3. He has made several verifiable convenents with humans

He has created an infinite universe

A, The universe exists
1. Matter is measurable, quantifiable and qualifiable
B. It was not built of matter
1. Matter did not exist prior to it's creation
2. Physical beings have not succeeded in
replicating it.
3. Atomic facts show that matter contains no solid
"building" material
C. There is no detectable end to the universe
1. Quantum pnysics and Astronomy verify that the universe
would not exist if it had finite limitations

He knows all things

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

PROOFS:
He has made his presence known

A. He has revealed Himself to mankind
1. Sacred writings speak of the existance of a God
2, Historicaly there have been verifiable people
that have had direct contact with him
3. He has made several verifiable convenents with humans

He has created an infinite universe

A, The universe exists
1. It is measurable, quantifiable and qualifiable
B. It was not built of matter
1. Matter did not exist prior to it's creation
2. Physical beings have not succeeded in
replicating it.
3. Atomic facts show that matter contains no solid
"building" material
C. There is no detectable end to the universe
1. Quantum pnysics and Astronomy verify that the universe
would not exist if it had finite limitations

He knows all things

What you've given here are a series of assertions. Some of them have evidence to support them, some of them have no evidence to support them. These are certainly not 'proofs' of the existence of god.

To take two of your interlinked propositions, you've said that the universe is infinite, and that it is measurable. How can these two statements possibly both be true?

Peace

 

[Woodrow]

Greetings,


What you've given here are a series of assertions. Some of them have evidence to support them, some of them have no evidence to support them. These are certainly not 'proofs' of the existence of god.

To take two of your interlinked propositions, you've said that the universe is infinite, and that it is measurable. How can these two statements possibly both be true?

Peace

First I will begin by thanking you for pointing this error to me:
"To take two of your interlinked propositions, you've said that the universe is infinite, and that it is measurable. How can these two statements possibly both be true?"
I had intended to say matter is measurable. I will go back and edit that.

Now the problem is going to be of proof. It is very difficult to present any proof, that all people will accept as proof.

I am deliberatly leaving that vague. To myself I am convinced of 2. things.
1. God revealed himself to mankind. 2. The universe had a Creator.

Those 2 things are sufficient proof for me that God exists. The following statements under each indicate why I believe those to be true.

Now I know you will not accept anything as proof unless it can be systematicaly measured and scrutinized beyond all doubt.

Can you name anything that you would accept as being undeniable Proof of God's existence?

The topic for this thread was :Is there evidence for God's existence. I think you will have to agree the answer to that is yes.


Now, I opened the door by saying that there is not only evidence there is proof. I will agree that you and I will differ as to what constitutes proof. Now, if we can both come to an agreement as to what would be an argeeable definition of Proof in this case, I will do my best, to find verification of it.

Would you accept mearsurable facts of both of my "proofs" A. God Revealed Himself B. The universe was created as proof of God's existance?

 

[HeiGou]

P.S. Alpha Dude! You the Man! With 4 madhabs and a controvercial 5th Islam was always a religion of tollerance with regards to interpretation, it is a very sad thing that the western totalitarian "my way or the high way" attitude has started to corrupt certain corners of the Ummah. But what Allah (SWT) has established none will damage but by the permission of Allah (SWT).

Some how I don't think it is fair to blame the West for that. Indeed your last sentence there suggests that "western totalitarian" attitude is entirely Islamic. How could Islam be anything else?

 

[Sabi]

How can a Sabian have a totalitarian Islamic perspective:?

 

[IceQueen~]

many people think they do not believe in God, but why don't they look around them at the world, the wonders of nature etc and reflect upon this..?
the other thing is, you can't put any water in a glass that's turned upside-down, so you have to have an open mind too.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace to you all, I have to say I am amazed this thread is still going strong after 800 posts, maybe this is going to be the infinite thread that cannot be measured.

To take two of your interlinked propositions, you've said that the universe is infinite, and that it is measurable. How can these two statements possibly both be true?

And it seems to pose the question can God create something infinite that he cannot measure?

We talk of God’s infinite love for each one of us but can he possibly love each one of us infinitely more than he loves himself?

By its very nature questions on infinity seem unanswerable.

In the spirit of searching for answers

Eric

 

[IceQueen~]

Greetings and peace to you all, I have to say I am amazed this thread is still going strong after 800 posts, maybe this is going to be the infinite thread that cannot be measured.



And it seems to pose the question can God create something infinite that he cannot measure?

We talk of God’s infinite love for each one of us but can he possibly love each one of us infinitely more than he loves himself?

By its very nature questions on infinity seem unanswerable.

In the spirit of searching for answers

Eric

some questions contradict themselevs so just starting to answer them-you fall into the trap of illogical stuff.

 

[Sabi]

No sister, do not worry. This is tawheed. The answer is of course yes. Whether we comprehend it or not. There is a similar question, can God make a camel pass through the eye of a needle without making the camel smaller or the hole bigger, and again the answer is of course yes. Logic is a gift from god we should not be shy to use it to the max.
O ye of little faith.

 

[IceQueen~]

No sister, do not worry. This is tawheed. The answer is of course yes. Whether we comprehend it or not. There is a similar question, can God make a camel pass through the eye of a needle without making the camel smaller or the hole bigger, and again the answer is of course yes. Logic is a gift from god we should not be shy to use it to the max.
O ye of little faith.

i'm not talking about these kind of arguments-i'm talking about stupid illogical questions that atheists ask just for the sake of mixing people up..

like can God create a stone He can't lift?

 

[HeiGou]

How can a Sabian have a totalitarian Islamic perspective:?

I do not know. When I meet one I'll let you know. In the meantime I do not see how Islamic rigour is my fault.