Use of 'Infidel' and 'Kafir'

[Muezzin]

Seriously Can someone explain to me how the word Kafir is being rude, now trust me if I were going to be rude to a person I wouldn't call them a Kafir, It has the same effect has someone calling me a muslim.

Thing is, a non-Muslim might not understand what you mean - they might think you're calling them names. So, if the listener takes offence to a term they do not understand, is it the listener's fault for not speaking the language or the speaker's fault for using the term without explaining it?

 

[Ghazi]

Thing is, a non-Muslim might not understand what you mean - they might think you're calling them names. So, if the listener takes offence to a term they do not understand, is it the listener's fault for not speaking the language or the speaker's fault for using the term without explaining it?

I understand, Like I said before I wouldn't call someone Kafir in Public just to say Hi or something, but I'll refer to them as a whole with this term.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

I think that the word Kafir as mentioned in the english language that would refer to a black person in an insulting way, was taken from the Afrikaans word kaffer; wich was frequently used in south-africa during the apartheid era.

I'm not convinced. I think Ra'eesah's etymology from earlier on in the thread is more likely. (See post #3 onwards.)

Peace

 

[Sabi]

Re: Why do you live in the West if you hate it so?

Love your posts DD,keep it up.

Me too DD. However, I object to being called a non muslim (small m) even though I am a Non-Muslim (capital M), because I support the Din and dream of the day I can live under an Islamic state, so even though my religion is Sibghatullah, I and all Sabi`ah Hunafa` consider themselves muslim, even though we have to pay the Jizyah instead of Zakaat, and are no longer allowed to go to Mecca. So I think it is best to call each person by the word that best describes their behaviour. If they support Islam then call them Muslim, if they have a strong faith in God, then call them Mu`min. If they really don't believe in God (but take care to make sure you really understand their language first, because they might believe in God while not worshipping God), then call them Kafir. Allow each individual to categorize themselves through their behaviour and their faith, not their dogma or creed. Isn't that fair?
:brother:

 

[x Maz x]

Re: Why do you live in the West if you hate it so?

Because people are not here on this forum necessarily to revert - calling them a non-believer is an insult to someone who believes in something, regardless of whether our point of view. They are here with their own beliefs. Good for them. If they are inspired by something they see here to take a step towards Islam, alhamdulilah. If they don't but simply come away with one less stereotype about Moslems, alhamdulilah.

Non-Moslem is more than adequate as a description is it not? Nothing gets lost in the meaning, does it?! And not getting their back up in the first place is adab on our part, right?
Think back to your own days of kuffr. Was the true path revealed to you by someone getting your back up? Or was it witnessing the beauty of the true religion being practised with manners and patience?

MashAllah Akhi, well said *thumbs up*...instead of going on a rant and causing fitnah its best to refrain from it if people take it so offensive and to heart...
Peace x

 

[Daffodil]

asalamulaikum

i cant believe there is a thread on this. ppl have got too much time on their hands.

kafir=non muslim.

the word kafir is the arabic for non-muslim, how does that even make a difference. i agree with dawud_uk, we shud use the terms that Allah swt uses. other wise its like saying Allah swt is being offensive to the non muslims in the quran, so are u going to change the wording in the quran to suit the non muslims as to not offend them, i think this whole thread is absolutly pathetic n ridiculous.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

other wise its like saying Allah swt is being offensive to the non muslims in the quran, so are u going to change the wording in the quran to suit the non muslims as to not offend them,

Of course, Allah is very offensive towards non-Muslims. Think of all the threats of violence and hellfire he makes in the Qur'an.

Peace

 

[Dawud_uk]

Of course, Allah is very offensive towards non-Muslims. Think of all the threats of violence and hellfire he makes in the Qur'an.

Peace

n ud think those warnings wud be enough, but no, ppl wud rather learn the hard way.

May Allah swt grant u hidayah (guidence) ameen

 

[scentsofjannah]

Greetings,


Of course, Allah is very offensive towards non-Muslims. Think of all the threats of violence and hellfire he makes in the Qur'an.

Peace

gibson ..why don't u read the Qur'an with an open mind? if that was the case as u say why do u think people convert to a religion that calls for the indiscrminate slaughter of nonmuslims..as you believe? makes no utter sense..it is your understanding thats flawed..not Islam

 

[Abdullah4ever]

Greetings,


Of course, Allah is very offensive towards non-Muslims. Think of all the threats of violence and hellfire he makes in the Qur'an.

Peace

they aren't threats , the quran is a mercy allah is warning them from the punishment....

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

gibson ..why don't u read the Qur'an with an open mind?

I've tried many times. As I've said before on numerous threads, I found it dull, repetitive and hectoring.

if that was the case as u say why do u think people convert to a religion that calls for the indiscrminate slaughter of nonmuslims..as you believe?

When did I ever say this? Please don't misrepresent my views. What I said was that Allah makes threats of violence and hellfire towards the unbelievers. Do you deny that the Qur'an says this?

Some people obviously find something valuable in Islam and then convert, and good luck to them. It's not for me though.

makes no utter sense..it is your understanding thats flawed..not Islam

No doubt my understanding of Islam is far from perfect, but I'm learning a lot about it thanks to the knowledgable members of this forum.

Peace

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi Callum,
In my opinion you're taking things out of context. God warns people in the Qur'an that rejecting God and rejecting his messengers will only lead them to misery in this life and the Hereafter - but at the same time the Qur'an teaches us the proper way to invite others to the truth:

16:125 Call unto the way of your Lord wioth wisdom and beautiful preaching and reason with them in the best manner. Verily your Lord knows best who has strayed from His path and and best knows He as to who are the rightly-guided.

29:46 And do not debate with the people of the earlier scriptures (Jews and Christians) except in the best manner, unless it be with the those bent on oppression and injustice. And say 'We believe in that which has been bestowed from on high upon us, as well as that which has been bestowed upon you: our God and your God is one , and it is unto Him that We submit ourselves.

And God mentions that the Prophet's success in preaching was due to God's mercy in enabling him to be gentle in calling others:

3:159 And it was by God's mercy that you [O Prophet] dealt gently with them. And had you been harsh and hard of heart they would have disbanded from around you. So pardon them, then, and pray that they be forgiven. And take counsel with them in all matters of public concern; then, when you have decided upon a course of action, trust in God: for, verily, God loves those who place their trust in Him.

And when we turn to the example of the Prophet to see how he spread the message of the Qur'an he always emphasized gentleness in preaching: "Whoever is deprived of gentleness is deprived of all good." (Sahih Muslim), and there are numerous other sayings from him as well.

Secondly, I know you have probably read this before, but this is Dr. Lang's comments on the Qur'an's use of warnings to stimulate action:

And those who rejected and gave the lie to Our signs, these are friends of the fire, they dwelled therein (2:39).​

Why did it have to say that? I felt a rush of indignation. Just as I was admiring the Qur’an’s intelligent approach, it had to resort to scare tactics. That’s hitting below the belt, I complained. I would have continued on with my reading anyway, if only out of curiosity, without the threats. I have been threatened enough already in my life, and it only produced more resistance and resentment. The Qur’an may be able to frighten others, but I will not be intimidated. I will continue to analyze this Scripture, page-by-page, verse-by-verse, and line-by-line.
I may have been at first offended by this statement, but my brief history with the Scripture had taught me that when a passage agitates me, it often contains an important clue to its viewpoint. As I looked more carefully at these words, I again found the phrasing intriguing. Until this point in the narrative, the Qur’an was relating the allegory of Adam and Eve, of the beginnings of human experience on earth. In this verse, with its abrupt shift to the past tense, it transports the reader far into the future, to the conclusion of the human drama in the hereafter, where it reviews the state of those who rejected and denied God’s signs on earth. It is a brilliant device, for it ends God’s conversation with the first couple on a consoling and compassionate note, and at the same time introduces a warning to the reader in the next verse without interrupting the flow of ideas.
Yet let us say, for the sake of argument, that there really is a God. Does anyone knowingly reject and give the lie to His signs, or do they simply miss them because they are too obscure? Do people consciously reject what they feel may be true? Do they distort in their own minds what they sense is right? Do they stubbornly go against their conscience?
Of course they do, I told myself, and so have I. Many times I have denied, bent and manipulated the truth to indulge some personal vice. Many times I have rationalized patently destructive and self-destructive acts, refusing to admit my wrongs, even to myself? And even though my pursuit of what I felt might be wrong left me empty, ungratified, and restless, I continued to run headlong down the same path. If God did exist, I thought, then I definitely ignored His signs, but that is a big “if.”
The phrase “These are friends of the fire” also struck me. For a friend is one who is dear to us, whose company we seek and whose companionship we desire. Is the Qur’an saying that some people pursue and court the misery they will experience in the next life? When it says that “they dwelled therein,” is it hinting that the hell they experience in the hereafter in some sense began for them in their earthly lives?
Even though a hundred questions were now streaming into my mind and I could not yet see the big picture, I knew I was in for a battle. If these ten verses led me to this much agonizing, then the challenge ahead of me was going to be great. (Taken from this post)​

I've tried many times. As I've said before on numerous threads, I found it dull, repetitive and hectoring.

Are you still using the same translation? Maybe switching to one of the two translations I've recommended here might help, of course its entirely your choice.

Peace.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings Ansar,

In my opinion you're taking things out of context. God warns people in the Qur'an that rejecting God and rejecting his messengers will only lead them to misery in this life and the Hereafter - but at the same time the Qur'an teaches us the proper way to invite others to the truth:

You say god 'warns', which is a synonym for 'threatens'. The context doesn't actually alter the content of these threats.

16:125 Call unto the way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching and reason with them in the best manner. Verily your Lord knows best who has strayed from His path and and best knows He as to who are the rightly-guided.

29:46 And do not debate with the people of the earlier scriptures (Jews and Christians) except in the best manner, unless it be with the those bent on oppression and injustice. And say 'We believe in that which has been bestowed from on high upon us, as well as that which has been bestowed upon you: our God and your God is one , and it is unto Him that We submit ourselves.

I think these are excellent pieces of advice; ones that you're clearly following.

Secondly, I know you have probably read this before, but this is Dr. Lang's comments on the Qur'an's use of warnings to stimulate action:

I think I have. I find his thought processes quite odd. I'll give you some examples:

Until this point in the narrative, the Qur’an was relating the allegory of Adam and Eve, of the beginnings of human experience on earth.

Why does he describe the story of Adam and Eve as being an allegory?

Do people consciously reject what they feel may be true?

In intellectual matters people normally reject what they think is wrong.

Are you still using the same translation? Maybe switching to one of the two translations I've recommended here might help, of course its entirely your choice.

I've used online versions as well as the version you recommended to me several months ago, but the message remains the same. Put it this way, while I found Yusuf-Ali's style distracting, it very much seems that it is the content of the text itself that I just don't seem to be able to get on with.

Peace

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

You say god 'warns', which is a synonym for 'threatens'

Maybe it is, but I feel the former conveys a far more accurate image.

Why does he describe the story of Adam and Eve as being an allegory?

Well, that's his opinion, but I quoted his comments here to show how he looked at the warning in the passage.

I've used online versions as well as the version you recommended to me several months ago, but the message remains the same. Put it this way, while I found Yusuf-Ali's style distracting, it very much seems that it is the content of the text itself that I just don't seem to be able to get on with.

I thought it might be worthwhile for you to get the F. M. Malik translation, but I see you feel that you aren't getting along with the content itself, and I don't think you will benefit by forcing yourself to go through it.

Peace.

 

[Sabi]

I have noticed a few new people coming on this thread who have obviously not read it through. Perhaps it is going on too long and some fo the beautiful responses written so far are being missed.

Kafir refers to not non Muslim but non Mu`min. The question is who is a Mu`min? If the answer is only those people who say La ilahah il allah wa muhammad al rasool ullah with their toungues in front of the appropriate witnesses, then Allah (SWT) save us all. If the answer is something more personal and in the heart and in one's actions (and I don't mean going to a mosque, and wearing a Hijab or a beard, but more important things like love, charity, kindness, gentle speech, forgiveness, and devotion) regardless of confession, then Alhamdulilah. Remember the Qur`aan says that it is possible to be a muslim without being a Mu`min, so vice-versa could also apply Allahualim.


:brother:

 

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Greetings,


Of course, Allah is very offensive towards non-Muslims. Think of all the threats of violence and hellfire he makes in the Qur'an.

Peace

Offensive? Lol. Dude, He created you. The least you could do is acknolwedge His existence. It isn't a threat, it's a promise.

 

[Daffodil]

Offensive? Lol. Dude, He created you. The least you could do is acknolwedge His existence. It isn't a threat, it's a promise.

gud answer sis

 

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

I've got a feeling i'm gonna get a warning for it though lol. Did it sound aggressive?:?

 

[SirZubair]

A warning?

I reckon you should be banned !


(not - you are a bonus to this forum)

 

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Lol. Yeah yeah, i bring life to this forum!
Who you gonna argue with and make up with and argue with and make up with? Lol.