Scientists agree Qur'aan is divinely revealed

[lolwatever]

perhaps not root

 

[root]

Not so quick mister, Why would moris beqeu (someone spell it correctly 4 him please) be so amazed that he even gave permission for his book on embryology to be edited and have references to the quran!

OMG......+o(

Maurice Bucaille (correct spelling) was an ordinary French Physician and lived in Saudi Arabia as an expatriate doctor to Saudi King Family. The Saudi king asked him to write a book highlighting Qur'anic science for which the King offered him $6 million dollars and he also made a further $2 million.

Dr. William Campbell is an American Physician who was an expatriate doctor for the family of the King of Tunisia for 20 years. After learning about the book of Dr. Bucaille, he wrote a book of 300 pages categorically rebutting Dr. Bucaille's book. I urge readers to read Dr. Campbell's book and see for themselves.

PS....... He did not convert to Islam

No one, no one has had such detailed description to the process of birth and baby creation as Quran 1400 years ago.

Actually, other scientists found that Qur'anic scientific verses matches with Aristotle and Galenic theories of Embryology and Ptolemic Geo-centric theorie of Astronomy which were prevailing almost thousand years before the arrival of Qur'an.

Well you're pretty retarded to think a general comment like that would be classified as a miracle. The prophet prophecised that constantinople would be conquered, and it was! ha! beat that.

Nostradamus predicted the 9/11 twin towers, beaten.

Quote:Root
Your welcome to prove to me that the spahgetti monster "him" who created everything does not exist. Clearly we should educate everyone to the "controversy", many scientists support it.

Well don't you think the creator of the sphaghetti monster (if such a monster does exist) who sent us a book of guidance is mroe worthy of being worshipped than a creation of Allah?

MUHAHAHA

I don't know about more, but would ask if it was worthy of any less considering all the above, perhaps the sphaghetti monster faithfull should hold a raffle or something so that they can pay a few million bucks for a phisician to write some spin to futher legitamise it's beleif?

 

[IceQueen~]

"the disbelievers try to put out Allah's light with their mouths but Allah will not allow except that His light be perfected even though the disbelievers hate it"
(Quran)

 

[root]

"the disbelievers try to put out Allah's light with their mouths but Allah will not allow except that His light be perfected even though the disbelievers hate it"

Yes I agree, what would Allah think of muslims paying millions of dollrs to the very disbelievers quoted above in order to "buy" a supporting opinion, and yes us kuffers hate it when you do that ;D

 

[...]

Yes I agree, what would Allah think of muslims paying millions of dollrs to the very disbelievers quoted above in order to "buy" a supporting opinion, and yes us kuffers hate it when you do that ;D

huh i'm lost....what're u talking about?

 

[wilberhum]

I can't get to the link. Would you identify the Scientists that agree Qur'aan is divinely revealed?

 

[lolwatever]

Maurice Bucaille (correct spelling) was an ordinary French Physician and lived in Saudi Arabia as an expatriate doctor to Saudi King Family. The Saudi king asked him to write a book highlighting Qur'anic science for which the King offered him $6 million dollars and he also made a further $2 million.

Dr. William Campbell is an American Physician who was an expatriate doctor for the family of the King of Tunisia for 20 years. After learning about the book of Dr. Bucaille, he wrote a book of 300 pages categorically rebutting Dr. Bucaille's book. I urge readers to read Dr. Campbell's book and see for themselves.

PS....... He did not convert to Islam

Isn't Campbell the one that took on Dr Zakir Neik in a debate on the topic 'Quran Science and Medicine'? Oh yeh it is, then you should watch that debate, zakir pretty much destroyed his arguments left right and center.

I didn't know that about Maurice, can you provide some official link for that? He's definately not the only person though, L. Keith Moore and others talk along similar lines.


http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Science/scientists.html


"Thinking where Muhammad came from... I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years with very complicated and advanced technological methods that this is the case."

"Somebody who did not know something about nuclear physics 1400 years ago could not, I think, be in a position to find out from his own mind for instance that the earth and the heavens had the same origin, or many others of the questions that we have discussed here...

If you combine all these and you combine all these statements that are being made in the Qur'an in terms that relate to the earth and the formation of the earth and science in general, you can basically say that statements made there in many ways are true, they can now be confirmed by scientific methods, and in a way, you can say that the Qur'an is a simple science text book for the simple man. And that many of the statements made in there at that time could not be proven, but that modern scientific methods are now in a position to prove what Muhammad said 1400 years ago."

Professor of the Department of Geosciences, University of Mainz, Germany.


Actually, other scientists found that Qur'anic scientific verses matches with Aristotle and Galenic theories of Embryology and Ptolemic Geo-centric theorie of Astronomy which were prevailing almost thousand years before the arrival of Qur'an.

Examples? Some may have (i'd be interested to know which), definately not all, and lets assume every single one did, the prophet was illiterate, there's no evidence to suggest he visited the greeks and had a read into some of aristotles books and then went back to makkah preaching aristotle tech. And if that's what he did, he would have been telling us things like 'Motion can be considered to be either natural or violent', and you would be here now lecturing us on how insane of a theory that is.


Nostradamus predicted the 9/11 twin towers, beaten.

Not yet, Yes i heard about that, but Nostradamus didn't come with a message of any sort, atleast not a message that was of much guidance to Humanity as did Islam. We know for fact (from the Hadiths) that the anti-christ will come with miracles that probably might even compare some of those that Muhammad came with (in terms of magnitude), but that doesn't make him a source of guidance.

They wheren't the only two predictions that Allah informed Muhammad about, some where in so close a range and sounded pretty unlikely, like the one in Chapter of 'The Romans', where Allah tells us right after the defeat of the romans, that they will be victorious, within a few yeras (and the term bidh'3i used has a specific time-range, i read this a while ago i cant remember if anyone could xplain that would be great).

So did he predict that certain companions will be killed by a certain people, like Ammar bin yasir, he also predicted that Umar and Uthman where going to be killed (no it's not a matter of random guessing, because if you multiply the probability of getting each of these 'guesses' right, it's just crazingly impossible for any normal person without soem sort of forsight to predict such stuff). I'm not going to convert this into a lecture about miracles, we'll stick to science.


I don't know about more, but would ask if it was worthy of any less considering all the above, perhaps the sphaghetti monster faithfull should hold a raffle or something so that they can pay a few million bucks for a phisician to write some spin to futher legitamise it's beleif

What makes you think Muslim's belief clings to books by scientists? Muslims lived pretty happily without understanding about the big bang, embryology, expansion of the universe, origin of life when Islam first emerged, there is no condition in the quran that scientists are to affirm that the Sun is heading towards constellation hercules in order for Islam to be proven right. Otherwise Allah would have 'made a mistake' only till a few decades ago when they realise that he was 'right all along'.

ps: sorry for late reply, just woke up.

 

[lolwatever]

Yes I agree, what would Allah think of muslims paying millions of dollrs to the very disbelievers quoted above in order to "buy" a supporting opinion, and yes us kuffers hate it when you do that ;D

Allah definately didn't ask us to do that, and if a case like that did occur, then that's not the dawah Muslims are interested in.

But the sis was referring to those like Joe who avoid the main bits and comment on the irrelevent scraps.

PS: If Faisal spent that much to promote and sell that book, then that's a different story, but if he coerced the guy to write it then there's others who weren't offered that money. And the bottom line is, the prophet never seeked non Muslims support to prove Islam, if they really had some sympathy for themselves after knowing all that, why don't they follow it. When Suraqah's horse kept sinking when eh was trying to kill him, the prophet didn't tell him 'ok please go back to your people and tell them about the miracle and only a prophet could come with such thing'.

 

[sweetbanana86]

Salam alaikum Marsha'allah for the post, there is lot of wonderful information on there,

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Scientists also endorse that a Flying Spaghetti Monster created "everything"

http://www.venganza.org/endorsements.htm

:giggling:

eace:

lol but he gave much more sources!!! i didnt chek if they work yet tho, also

http://www.geocities.com/islamicmiracles/scientists_on_the_quran1.htm


hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.... :rollseyes




lol root i dont understand how people can deny a man who was rated as THE MOST influencial man in history (muhammad saws). You must think your really special by being part of the lil minority of aethiests

eace:

 

[root]

I didn't know that about Maurice, can you provide some official link for that? He's definately not the only person though, L. Keith Moore and others talk along similar lines.


http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...cientists.html

Thanks for the link, very interesting indeed. Firstly though before we move onto Prof K Moore let's just recap on our good friend Maurice Bucaille.

1. He was a normal everyday physician with no specialisation in embryology.
2. He was paid 6 million Dollars by the Saudi king to write it.
3. he made a further 2 million selling it in the Islamic World.
4. He never converted to Islam.

Now for prof k moore

"The intensive studies of the Qur'an and Hadith in the last four years have revealed a system of classifying human embryos that is amazing since it was recorded in the seventh century A.D... the descriptions in the Qur'an cannot be based on scientific knowledge in the seventh century..."

The truth of the matter is that he was asked to study around 25 verses of the Quran & Hadith and it would appear that the "cream" of those verses were selected for him and the problomatic one's that contradict known Embryology were simply and conveniently dropped. Here is an example:

"Narrated Anas:

When 'Abdullah bin Salam heard the arrival of the Prophet at Medina, he came to him and said, "I am going to ask you about three things which nobody knows except a prophet: What is the first portent of the Hour? What will be the first meal taken by the people of Paradise? Why does a child resemble its father, and why does it resemble its maternal uncle" Allah's Apostle said, "Gabriel has just now told me of their answers." 'Abdullah said, "He (i.e. Gabriel), from amongst all the angels, is the enemy of the Jews." Allah's Apostle said, "The first portent of the Hour will be a fire that will bring together the people from the east to the west; the first meal of the people of Paradise will be Extra-lobe (caudate lobe) of fish-liver. As for the resemblance of the child to its parents: If a man has sexual intercourse with his wife and gets discharge first, the child will resemble the father, and if the woman gets discharge first, the child will resemble her." On that 'Abdullah bin Salam said, "I testify that you are the Apostle of Allah." 'Abdullah bin Salam further said, "O Allah's Apostle! The Jews are liars, and if they should come to know about my conversion to Islam before you ask them (about me), they would tell a lie about me." The Jews came to Allah's Apostle and 'Abdullah went inside the house. Allah's Apostle asked (the Jews), "What kind of man is 'Abdullah bin Salam amongst you?" They replied, "He is the most learned person amongst us, and the best amongst us, and the son of the best amongst us." Allah's Apostle said, "What do you think if he embraces Islam (will you do as he does)?" The Jews said, "May Allah save him from it." Then 'Abdullah bin Salam came out in front of them saying, "I testify that None has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah." Thereupon they said, "He is the evilest among us, and the son of the evilest amongst us," and continued talking badly of him." - Sahih al-Bukhaari

Not only was this Hadith conveniently ignored, Prof Moore recommends further reading for more information, mention of his own text book "with Islamic additions" is strikingly absent! Instead, he recommends the writings of Basim F. Musallam, who does not support the scientific-hermeneutic approach to the Qur'an on emrbyology in any way. In fact, Musallam's position on the Qur'an's statements on embryology, as expressed in the work Moore recommended, is in stark contradistinction to the position held by many proponents of the scientific-hermeneutic approach;

The stages of development which the Qur'an and Hadith established for believers agreed substantially with Galen's scientific account. In De Semine, for example, Galen spoke of four periods in the formation of the embryo: (1) as seminal matter; (2) as a bloody form (still without flesh, in which the primitive heart, liver, and brain are ill-defined); (3) the fetus acquires flesh and solidity (the heart, liver, and brain are well-defined, and the limbs begin formation); and finally (4) all the organs attain their full perfection and the fetus is quickened. There is no doubt that medieval thought appreciated this agreement between the Qur'an and Galen, for Arabic science employed the same Qur'anic terms to describe the Galenic stages: (as in Ibn Sina's account of Galen): nutfa for the first, 'alaqa for the second, "unformed" mudgha for the third, and "formed" mudgha for the fourth.

Ref:Basim Musallam, "The Human Embryo in Arabic Scientific and Religious Thought," in G.R. Dunstan, The Human Embryo: Aristotle and the Arabic and European Traditions, (University of Exeter, 1990), pp. 39-40.

Prof Moore also goes on to suggest how amazing it is that ancient Indian embryology was in 1416 BC

A brief Sanskrit treatise on ancient Indian embryology is thought to have been written in 1416 B.C. This scripture of the Hindus, called Garbha Upanishad, describes ancient ideas concerning the embryo. It states:
From the conjugation of blood and semen the embryo comes into existence. During the period favorable to conception, after the sexual intercourse, (it) becomes a Kalada (one-day-old embryo). After remaining seven nights it becomes a vesicle. After a fortnight it becomes a sperical mass. After a month it becomes a firm mass

Ref:Keith L. Moore, TVN Persaud, The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 6th edition, (WB Saunders, 1998), p. 10.

Finally, the "special edition" of his embryology textbook, known as ‘The Islamic edition’ which was available only in some Middle Eastern Countries. Critics think, he wrote this Islamic version of his book to make quick money by selling it to the Islamic world. This Islamic edition is not available in the western world presumably because he is aware that not only do the Islamic contributions in it contradict known science, but they also contradict what he has written in the standard version of his text book. However, his standard version of embryology text book has been widely used in medical schools of the west

Now, incidently I would like to talk about another "scientist" supposadly supporting the Quran. It's from your link "I find it very interesting that this sort of information is in the ancient scriptures of the Holy Qur'an, and I have no way of knowing where they would have come from. But I think it is extremely interesting that they are there and this work is going on to discover it, the meaning of some of the passages."

And when he was asked about the source of the Qur'an, he replied, "Well, I would think it must be the divine being."

Source: http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Science/scientists.html

This is the kind of devious and dishonest propoganda that seems to have caught you on it's hook; I actually have a copy of an e-mail from William Hay who was contacted recently and asked to confirm his position in supporting the Quran and his quote:

Dr. William W. Hay wrote:

25 January 2006

Hello T.H.,

It’s a long story about how they got that clip/quote from me, and I would be happy to tell you more about it if you give me a phone call at (XXX)XXX-XXXX.

In brief, in 1983 or 1984 two Saudi's approached the Geological Society of America to locate experts on certain aspects of Geology which might Relate to the Koran. At that time our understanding was that the Saudis wanted to make it possible for science to flourish in the Arab countries as it once had, but the religious authorities stood in the way. The Royal Family sponsored a "holy man", Sheik Zindani for this project. Accordingly, I was flown to Jedda, and met with the Sheik for the better part of a week.

For me one of the questions concerned a passage in the Koran that seems to refer to internal waves in the ocean, ad the idea was that these had been discovered only recently.

I suggested that perhaps Mohammed was highly intelligent, and a good observer, and had been on a sea voyage. In case you are not aware of it, proper Islamics believe that Mohammed was uneducated, illiterate, and to attribute a high level of intelligence to him is heresy. Also, the Sheik and colleagues insisted that he never saw the sea (in spite of the fact that Mecca and Medina) are almost in sight of the Red Sea.

I suggested that perhaps he had friends who were observant sailors, again heresy. So after one long afternoon on a boat in the hot sun, all of the caveats having been rejected you come to divine inspiration! So none of my skepticism was reflected.

I gave a geological lecture at the university in Jedda, and talking with faculty there I got the impression that the assumption that the goal was to make the pursuit of science safe was essentially correct.

When I got back to the US I started to look into how old information about internal waves was, and discovered that the Vikings certainly knew about the phenomenon, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Greeks/Romans knew about it, and almost certainly the Arabs, who were the best sailors, would have had some experience with this phenomenon (in practical terms where there is a sharp interface within the water, the waves on this interface control the motion of the boat so that it does not correspond to the surface waves or currents).

We then had a conference organized by Sheik Zindani in Islamabad bringing together most all of the non-Islamic scientists he had conferred with.

We were asked to prepare papers to be published in the Conference Proceedings, and mine included what I had been able to learn about possible ancient knowledge of internal waves in the ocean. Needless to say it did not get included in the published proceedings.

We now know that all of this had another aspect. At the meeting in Pakistan it became apparent that the topic of science that should have no interference from clerics was related to the development of nuclear weapons. It has also turned out that Sheik Zindani is a major supporter of Osama bin Laden.

The parallels of Islamic fundamentalism and modern US Christian fundamentalism are amazing. My European colleagues often refer to us as Iran-west.

I did a long interview with an investigative reporter for the Wall Street Journal on Sheik Zindani and his cohorts in 2000, but unfortunately I do not have a copy of the published article anymore.

Incidentally, most of me early paleontologic career was devoted to study of coccoliths, the tiny fossils that were the topic of T. H. Huxley's famous lecture "On a Piece of Chalk."

We have so far managed to hold off "intelligent design" from the public schools here, but our local fundamentalists are very persistent.

Yours sincerely,

Bill Hay

So what have we learned about Dr William W Hay apparent support for his comments on the website you are using as supporting your position other than "what a loud of rubbish"!!!!!!!

PS....... None of the scientists I have discussed have converted to Islam

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Since when did we need non-Muslim scientists to confirm the veracity of our religion? This reflects a severely flawed understanding of both Islam and science.


Hello Root,

Not only was this Hadith conveniently ignored

Answered here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/health-science/17745-help-hadith-genetics.html

 

[root]

Since when did we need non-Muslim scientists to confirm the veracity of our religion?

Clearly, Islam is more than happy to pay millions of dollars and misqoute and misrepresent scientific opinion in order to attempt to gain some sort of scientific validity to their claims, as has clearly been demonstrated.

Ansar - Hello Root,

Quote:Root
Originally Posted by root
Not only was this Hadith conveniently ignored

Answered here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/health-s...-genetics.html

Hello Ansar,

My reference was to that Hadith not being presented to Keith Moore, and to be honest your link does not answer it at all like you suggest offering only two probabilities when in truth I seen a third option, The Hadith in question contradicts modern embryology. I fail to see why in Moore's book no reference is made to it.

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Clearly, Islam is more than happy to pay millions of dollars and misqoute and misrepresent scientific opinion in order to attempt to gain some sort of scientific validity to their claims, as has clearly been demonstrated.

eace:


^^ Demonstrated? How? When? And i dont like the way you use the word "Islam", use the word muslims if u happen to know of any black sheeps that im unaware of k dude :thumbs_up !

eace:

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Clearly, Islam is more than happy

Who is this person named 'Islam' ? Islam is a religion, not a human being that experiences emotions.

My reference was to that Hadith not being presented to Keith Moore, and to be honest your link does not answer it at all like you suggest offering only two probabilities when in truth I seen a third option, The Hadith in question contradicts modern embryology.

Since I have shown two other interpretations, the claim that the hadith contradicts embryology is refuted - what you should say is that your [mis]interpretation of it contradicts embryology.

 

[root]

Who is this person named 'Islam' ? Islam is a religion, not a human being that experiences emotions.

Islam - began in Arabia and was revealed to humanity by the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Those who follow Islam are called Muslims. Muslims believe that there is only one God. The Arabic word for God is Allah.
Source:http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/

Since I have shown two other interpretations, the claim that the hadith contradicts embryology is refuted - what you should say is that your [mis]interpretation of it contradicts embryology.

You call that refuted, alas I think we have found the boundary by which the absurdity one is faced with. Do you keep a straight face while typing that?

^^ Demonstrated? How? When? And i dont like the way you use the word "Islam", use the word muslims if u happen to know of any black sheeps that im unaware of k dude

Yes, Demonstrated. Just read the e-mail and ask yourself, did he really say that in the context islam is suggesting?

 

[lolwatever]

Islam - began in Arabia and was revealed to humanity by the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Those who follow Islam are called Muslims. Muslims believe that there is only one God. The Arabic word for God is Allah.
Source:http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/

ok so you answered teh question for yourself... Islam is nto a person, it's a way of life..

You call that refuted, alas I think we have found the boundary by which the absurdity one is faced with. Do you keep a straight face while typing that?


Yeh we do call that refuted, There's a classical rule in fiqh (jeruspredence) that an interpretation is only deemed correct if it is compatable with what is stated in Quran and Sunnah.

So if one decides to interpret 'Salat' as 'supplication' (which is linguistically correct) and therefore decides to make supplication instead of do the standadr prayer. Then his/her intrepretation is rejected, similarly if your interpretaion of that hadith clashes with what science suggests (assumign what science says also does not conflict with what Islam has to say), then your interpretation is rejected and those that are more accurate are taken.

Hence why different interpretations are tolerated in Islam, but when it comes down to defining which is correct and which is not, the various interpretations are subjected to the principles of Fiqh. (Which is a topic of its own if you want to start another thread on it).

So if you want to present that hadith to professor Moore.. feel free to do so. I don't see any coverup taking place over that hadith.. there simply is none.. infact if you look at the nature of the hadith it just adds more glamour, because the Jews wanted to test whether the prophet was the same one who was mentioned in their books or not.. so they asked him that question knowing that if he gave them that very answer, he is indeed the Messenger of Allah, so they got the answer that was correct as far as they where concerned.

And from what Ansar explained, the answer doesn't clash with science from what he explained.

Yes, Demonstrated. Just read the e-mail and ask yourself, did he really say that in the context islam is suggesting?

Which email?

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

lots of scientists become muslim when they read what the quran revealed over 1400 yrs ago and what science has just recently discovered

So have we got any closer to finding a list of the names of the scientists who've converted yet? Or is this just another ludicrous claim in the web of propaganda that surrounds this topic?

Peace

 

[lolwatever]

Greetings,



So have we got any closer to finding a list of the names of the scientists who've converted yet? Or is this just another ludicrous claim in the web of propaganda that surrounds this topic?

Peace

I don't keep track of scientists who become Muslim (though i'd love to), but you know what? who cares? Some of the really big scholars of the Jews who knew full well that Muhammad aws teh very prophet mentiond in thier books, still refused to become Muslim, even though their conviction that Muhammad was a prophet was probably much greater than a non Muslims scientists...

Yet that didn't make a difference... CZgibson.. there's one thing we know, Guidance is in Allah's hands, whilst we do get happy and thrilled that a scientist or non scientist becomes Muslim, we shouldn't (even though some people do) use that as evidence to prove or disprove anything about Islam...

how about i tell you about an interesting thing we're taught from our history?, alot of the 'noble people' refused to become Muslim becaue it was the poor and people without reputation and status who became Muslim.. because the 'lowclass' people saw the justice and benefit that Islam would bring to them (in terms of making them equal with their former superiors, and they right they had on the rich) so they became Muslim.. whereas kings saw that meant they'd lose most of their status adn they would have to pray in the same row, foot to foot, shoulder to shoulder with their servant, and there would be no difference between him and a slave, except with that of piety... so they refused to become Muslim in order to keep their status...

The balance by which you judge things is very different to the balance by which Allah judges humanity...

 

[Fishman]

Greetings,



So have we got any closer to finding a list of the names of the scientists who've converted yet? Or is this just another ludicrous claim in the web of propaganda that surrounds this topic?

Peace

Actually, one of the scientists that were paid to do this study by the Saudis did revert. He's quite close to the bottom of the page, and his name is Tejatat Tejasen. Maurice Bucaille himself also said that he believes the Quran is the word of Allah, although he did not openly say he reverted.

And even if the scientists were paid loads of money to say these things, that doesn't make what they said wrong. I admit it makes it less likely that they were being honest, but it doesn't prove that they are wrong.

And from the comments I've heard, Zakir Naik completely thrashed Campbell in a debate, and refuted his book.