what is original sin? some questions to the chrisitians and all are welcome to answer

[glo]

Re: what is original sin? some questions to the chrisitians and all are welcome to answer

Is it true that if a child or baby doesn't get baptized, it's destined for hell accordig to Christians?

Hi Hijrah

To avoid repeat discussions, try this thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/19351-babies-christianity-i-dont-get.html?

Peace. :thankyou:

 

[Phil12123]

Re: what is original sin? some questions to the chrisitians and all are welcome to answer

Hmm now i am confused,you are trying to explain what si original sin right??

May i ask how do you know that after they ate the fruit they died spiritually?
And can i aslo say that by eating the fruit they became mortal,,succumbed to death,,,when before they were immortal...So eating the fruit casued them to die both physically and spiritually..like old age...

Also you say Adam died at the age of 930 year which is 1 day to god,,,but may i ask did not adam stayed in heaven for several day?
So that account that adam died at age of (in god days) 1 day then that is a mistake right..

Basically in your article you say that jesus death forgives and recreate man spirtually.....but not remove the curse for that taint..

Does that mena Jesus does not have the power to remove the taint by the father? Or is he supplying the spirit while the body is cursed?

either way,my question remain,,,do you still punish those whom you have forgiven?

Unless youa re saying jesus forgives but the father is still angry,,thus showing they are speperate entity with differnt thought and limited power...ie jesus beign lesser than the father..

Yes, I’m trying, though perhaps not succeeding, to explain the concept of “original sin.” It’s “original” because it’s referring to the first sin that entered the world, the sin of Adam and Eve. (I don’t see any real profit in blaming one more than the other; Adam was just as guilty as Eve in disobeying God, and vice versa. But that could take up an entire separate post if you want to pursue that.) What we should know is, What is it? And what effect did it have on them and the rest of humanity born to them and after them?

I would say that we understand this subject from common sense observation of the way we (humanity) are, together with what we read in the Word of God. Beyond that it is useless speculation. I hope that what I have said is firmly based on both of those factors, though primarily on the Word of God. Whatever you read in any of my posts that isn’t, you should ignore.

I will try to answer your questions one at a time, in the order asked.

You ask, “May I ask how do you know that after they ate the fruit they died spiritually?” I may have already answered that in my post. I said:

“Immediately after eating, they died spiritually, because we see them hiding in the Garden from God (Gen. 3:8), no longer enjoying the close fellowship of one who is spiritually alive to God. And they apparently started dying physically, because we know that ultimately Adam died at age 930 (Gen. 5:5). And if with God “one day is…as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day” (2 Pet. 3:8), we might say that Adam died physically the “day” he ate the forbidden fruit.”

Adam and Eve had disobeyed God and they knew it. That’s what sin is, at the heart of it --- disobedience or, actually, rebellion against God. God says one thing, we do the opposite. I want MY way, not God’s way. And His way can be something real small or simple, a lot less than “Don’t kill anyone.” Don’t eat of that tree. A small thing to ask, right? But the point is, HE said it and WE ignore and disobey it.

A&E had sinned and for the first time they knew guilt. They knew they were guilty of disobeying God, so they hid from Him. Fat chance. Obviously they couldn’t hide from God, certainly not just “amongst the trees of the garden” (Gen. 3:8).

The next verse is interesting. Verse 9 has God calling out to Adam, “Where are you?” Someone once said, whenever you see God asking a question in His Word, it is not to obtain information. He’s all-knowing so He already knows the answer to whatever He’s asking. But here He was drawing out of Adam a confession of his guilt and his sin. “Where are you?” … Who told you that you were naked?” … etc. God already knew all that, but He wanted Adam to confess it.

Back to your question. I think they died spiritually because of all the foregoing. But also God did say “in the day that you eat thereof, you shall surely die” (Gen.2:17). Now something happened in that very day, that 24-hour day. It happened immediately. They obviously did not die physically that very day, and I believe they still had a soul. But if man is body, soul, and spirit, it had to be the spirit that “died.” And I think we can see that, or the effects of it, in their hiding from God.

Yes, they also became mortal. Their bodies were also subject to death. That is why I said, “And they apparently started dying physically…” etc.

Sorry, I don’t understand your next question… Adam staying in heaven several day? What do you mean; could you rephrase your question or restate it?

Your next question is also a little confusing to me. Let me say this: Jesus’ death on the cross and resurrection provides the remedy for sinful man’s sin, IF he accepts that payment personally and individually to apply to HIS sins. Doing that is what we call accepting Christ as our own personal Savior. The Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world (1 John 4:14). We are all part of that world, but the remedy does not apply to US individually until WE do something individually to receive it, namely, repent and believe (Acts 20:21).

There is no conflict between Jesus and what the Father sent Him to do, and the Father. Don’t try to invent some scenario where one punishes and the other forgives. One is not more powerful than the other. There is no conflict there. They are in perfect unity of purpose.

Generally, a person is not still punished for the sin that he has been forgiven of. I do not believe the Catholic doctrine of there remaining any “temporal punishment due for sins” after forgiveness except the effects of sin might remain depending on what those are. For example, fornication (sex between two people not married to each other or to anyone else) is a sin, and it may be forgiven. But if it resulted in a sexually transmitted disease, forgiveness of the sin would not automatically remove the disease too. Adam and Eve may have been forgiven for their sin (though we are not specifically told they ever were), but as a result of their sin “death spread to all men” (Romans 5:12), “judgment came to all men” (v.18), and “many were made sinners” (v.19). So, if they were forgiven, they would be in heaven now. But the effect of their sin, the disease to the human race I called spiritual deadness, remained and was transmitted to all humanity.

Your proper response it not to merely ask Why? But to seek and apply the remedy that God Himself has provided for your sins, so YOU will not be punished for them!

Peace

 

[Phil12123]

"Just as God is Triune (Three in One), man who was made in the image of God is triune. He has a body, soul, and spirit (1 Thess.5:23). It was his spirit that died immediately when Adam ate the forbidden fruit. So he became spiritually dead. That deadness, or sin nature, was passed on to his children and their children and all descendants on down to the present day." Phil

Is this the only part that was sent down according to you?

I mean it seems like your saying, the spirit of Adam died instantly and this, deadness, is what has been passed down.

So as you have stated we are, body soul and spirit. So we see that the death of our spirit has been given to us as a punishment from G-d through Adam's action.

What about the soul and body, what in those sections have we recieved from Adam, if anything.

God, through Paul, said in Romans 6:23:

23. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And God, through James, said in James 1:15:

15. . . . and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

There are at least three different kinds of death: physical, spiritual, and eternal. The last two are the most important, although after the first one, no one can do anything more that will have any effect on the last two. Only in this present life, before physical death, can we do anything to effect or remedy whether we are spiritually dead and will be eternally dead.

As I have stated in my previous posts, the sin or rebellion of Adam and Eve brought forth their spiritual death and ultimately their physical death. If they were forgiven, they are in heaven. If not, they are in hell awaiting the judgment that has them cast into the lake of fire, which is called "the second death" (Revelation 20:14; 21:8; also referred to in Rev. 2:11; 20:6). That is what I call "eternal death." In Rev. 20:12, John says, "I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God..." In his vision, John saw the "dead" stand before God. That would either be referring to the physically dead who at that point had been resurrected, or the spiritually dead, who had never been born again (born spiritually), standing before God. In any event, their names are not written in the Book of Life, so they are cast into the lake of fire.

When we consider a person's body, soul, and spirit, we might break it down thusly:

1. body - the physical aspect of a person. It is a person's tent, or temporary dwelling place, until he gets a new one "not made with hands, eternal in the heavens" (2 Cor. 5:1-4). We get our new one at the resurrection. At that point we will no longer have any sin nature. That is when "the redemption of the body" (Romans 8:23) occurs, when "this corruptible shall have put on incorruption and this mortal shall have put on immortality" (1 Cor. 15:54). At that point, all taint of original sin will have been removed! No more death of any kind!! EVER!!!

2. spirit - the spiritual aspect of a person. It is a person's connection to God, his capacity to commune and have fellowship with God. It is broken by sin, that separates us sinful beings from a Holy, Righteous God. That broken connection is only connected by removal of the sin, and that is done only by payment for the sin. Only Jesus paid for that sin; He is the only sin-offering sent by the Father that is acceptable to the Father. Our acceptance of that offering opens the door to restored connection to God; rejection of it brings eternal judgment for sin.

3. soul - that is the nonphysical, nonspiritual aspect of a person---the real you. It is separate from the body and can live (or exist) when the body dies. Everyone has one, or IS one, and it never dies or ceases to exist. Jesus distinguished the soul and body in Matthew 10:28: "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Occasionally, "soul" and "spirit" are used interchangeably to simply refer to the nonphysical aspect of a person: "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also" James 2:26. There "spirit" is just talking about breath, as in the expression, "he breathed his last," or as in the old expression we see in the Bible, "he gave up the ghost [or spirit]."

So, to answer your question, from Adam we got a body that is subject to death (i.e., mortal), and a soul, and a dead or nonexistent spirit. The first will be fully and totally restored at the resurrection. The last is remedied now by a new birth in Christ, when "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6).

Peace

 

[snakelegs]

EDIT - oooops, i see i had already posted this.
glo, did you say you were sure my memory is fine?? i can't remember.

 

[Zulkiflim]

Re: what is original sin? some questions to the chrisitians and all are welcome to answer

Salaam,

Phil again i think that the explanation of spirit that die is just your perception and not what is written in the bible..right.It is how you inteprete how the word are couched.

Anyway,i dont really accpet your notion that they died spiritually just because they hid themselves from god,,maybe out of shame or self wareness and ill insight that they did not have before,but i do accept that the started to die of normal age...meaning their mortality started..

As for Adam dying at age of 939,i say that adam lived in heaven far longer than a day right so that mathematically mena he is maybe thousand of years old and not just 1 day(god years)...

And i again say that even if a man were to do an ill thing and asked form forgiveness from god and god gives it,that sickness is at his own sickness not god curse..

So in genesis god or the fahter ,cursed womankind with child birth pain..CURSED is the operative word,my question remian the same,in your mind if god has forgiven does he lift the curse or leave it alone..

Unless Jesus that died does not have the power to lift the curse or just forgive spiritually,which no one can see....

But the curse of the fahter remain,which mena either jesus died and forgive spiritually but the father is still angry..

And the son cant undo what the father did..

And finally i would sya that the fahter and the son in your bible is not equal,according to your bible it say that ONLY the fahter know the date of END..no one else..

So let me make my point simple,,,

1)Prove that Adam and Eve died spiritually,,,,hiding and what not does not signify death of the spirit,,,it just mena that they are aware of their selfves.

2)How do we know Jesus died to firgive all sin including original sin if the fahter curse for original sin is not forgiven?Is that a sign of a loving god?

 

[nimrod]

Re: what is original sin? some questions to the chrisitians and all are welcome to answer

As far as I know the original sin was committed by Satan, if I remember correctly it was the sin of pride, to the point of him wanting to be considered equal or greater than God.

Thanks
Nimrod

 

[glo]

EDIT - oooops, i see i had already posted this.
glo, did you say you were sure my memory is fine?? i can't remember.

I said that? When??? ;D

If you posted the same thing twice, it must have been really important to you! Perhaps you should post it a second time ... to make sure we all get it! :rollseyes

Peace.

 

[Phil12123]

Re: what is original sin? some questions to the chrisitians and all are welcome to answer

As far as I know the original sin was committed by Satan, if I remember correctly it was the sin of pride, to the point of him wanting to be considered equal or greater than God.

Yes, I think you are right, as far as the first sin ever, in the universe. But I also think that when we speak of "original sin" we are ordinarily speaking of man's first sin, not the universe's first sin ever. Of course, that expression, "original sin," is not found in the Bible, so what it means would probably be whatever the person meant who originated it. Who that was, we don't know, or at least I don't know. Might be an interesting matter of church history to research. But in any event, for purposes of this thread, I think whoever started it probably had in mind the sin of Adam and Eve and its effect, if any, on us today.

Peace

 

[Phil12123]

Re: what is original sin? some questions to the chrisitians and all are welcome to answer

Phil again i think that the explanation of spirit that die is just your perception and not what is written in the bible..right.It is how you inteprete how the word are couched.

Anyway,i dont really accpet your notion that they died spiritually just because they hid themselves from god,,maybe out of shame or self wareness and ill insight that they did not have before,but i do accept that the started to die of normal age...meaning their mortality started..

As for Adam dying at age of 939,i say that adam lived in heaven far longer than a day right so that mathematically mena he is maybe thousand of years old and not just 1 day(god years)...

And i again say that even if a man were to do an ill thing and asked form forgiveness from god and god gives it,that sickness is at his own sickness not god curse..

So in genesis god or the fahter ,cursed womankind with child birth pain..CURSED is the operative word,my question remian the same,in your mind if god has forgiven does he lift the curse or leave it alone..

Unless Jesus that died does not have the power to lift the curse or just forgive spiritually,which no one can see....

But the curse of the fahter remain,which mena either jesus died and forgive spiritually but the father is still angry..

And the son cant undo what the father did..

And finally i would sya that the fahter and the son in your bible is not equal,according to your bible it say that ONLY the fahter know the date of END..no one else..

So let me make my point simple,,,

1)Prove that Adam and Eve died spiritually,,,,hiding and what not does not signify death of the spirit,,,it just mena that they are aware of their selfves.

2)How do we know Jesus died to firgive all sin including original sin if the fahter curse for original sin is not forgiven?Is that a sign of a loving god?

I’m sorry you weren’t satisfied with what I’ve already said. I think I answered your questions already. I don’t want to just repeat my answers, as you have with your questions. You are so convinced to the contrary that probably nothing I say will convince you otherwise. So my attempt to give you further answer will probably be fruitless.

Nevertheless, let me say this. Sin produces death. But it is not always physical death. If not physical, what other kind of death is there here and now, except spiritual death? God said to Adam, “In the day you eat thereof, you shall surely die.” Did Adam die physically “in the day [he ate] thereof”? Quite apart from the one-day-equals-a-thousand-years idea, Gen. 5:5 says Adam died at the age of 930 years. He did not die, literally or physically, the very day he ate. So how else could it be said that he died, if not spiritually? If he was body, soul, and spirit, which part died if not his spirit? And why is his hiding from God not clear evidence of his spiritual death?

There are other verses that mention spiritual death without specifically calling it that. For example, Jesus said to a man who wanted to first go bury his father before following Jesus, “Follow me, and let the dead bury their dead” (Matt. 8:22). What does that mean to you? Is it not clear that He was saying, in effect, “Let the spiritually dead bury their physically dead”? How else can we understand that verse? Does it need to specifically say “spiritually dead” before you would accept it as such?

Or consider what Paul said in 1 Timothy 5:6, “She who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives.” Same thing---spiritually dead while she physically lives.

Jesus said, “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit” (John 3:6). The Greek word for “born” refers to either conceived or birthed. Did your flesh, your physical body, exist BEFORE it was conceived or born? NO. Likewise, your human spirit does not exist BEFORE a new birth experience produced by the Holy Spirit. If you have not been born again, you HAVE NO spirit, or it is a dead, unregenerated spirit. In that case, Jesus’ words to Nicodemus apply equally to you, “You MUST be born again” (John 3:7). Until you are, you are just as dead spiritually as “she who lives in pleasure” or those who were to “bury their dead.”

When a person is born again or “born…of God” (John 1:13), it is only by “receiving” Christ, as opposed to rejecting or not receiving him not (John 1:11-12, NKJV):

11. He came to His own [Jews, Jewish nation, Jewish leaders], and His own did not receive Him [they instead rejected Him, crucified Him, etc.].
12. But as many as received Him [Jewish disciples who accepted and followed Him], to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name:
13. who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

In John 3:36, Jesus said, "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.'' “…shall not see life”---again, it must be spiritual life. Everyone has physical life. So it is talking about spiritual life. Whoever does not believe, or trust in, the Son shall not see, or have, spiritual life.

In John 5:24, Jesus said,

24. "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

The Apostle John wrote in 1 John 3:

14. We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides [remains] in death.
15. Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

So, a person can pass from death to life, from spiritually dead to spiritually alive.

In John 11, we have the account of the death of Lazarus. To his grieving sister, Martha, Jesus says:
25 . . ."I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die [physically], he shall live [spiritually now and physically at the resurrection].
26. "And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die [spiritually or eternally]. Do you believe this?''

I’m wondering whether the Quran teaches this concept of death and life, spiritual death and spiritual life. If not, that is perhaps why you are questioning all this.

Concerning your second question, let me say this. Just as “original sin” is not specifically called that in Scripture, it does not say that Jesus died specifically for “original sin.” It says He died for our sins, plural. If the effect of Adams’ sin was to make many sinners, that effect will remain as long as men are born into this life. They will grow up, gain the knowledge of good and evil, and will commit the evil---will become “sinners” by choice. When that occurs they are separated from God by their sins and until born again, they will remain in their sins and may ultimately die in their sins. The only way to overcome those sins is to accept the sacrifice Jesus made when He paid for them on the Cross.

Because all people still face physical death and because all people come into this life totally clueless as to spiritual things (or spiritually dead, as I would call it), it is evident that the “curse” or judgment of God upon Adam and Eve as to their “death” when they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, was not “forgiven” or removed, as such. That effect, death, was passed on to all men, down to this present day. We still die. We still are born spiritually dead. That’s why we need to be born again.

What Jesus did was to die for all the sins we commit as spiritually dead creatures, to remove that which otherwise separates us from a Holy, Righteous God. That payment provides a Just God with the basis for forgiving us of all those sins, freely, without any further payment due from us after our physical death. That payment does not remove that physical death, so evidently His death was not to pay for that; His resurrection and overcoming physical death, however, assures us that we too will overcome that.

When you speak of a loving God, do you now see what this loving God did, to provide payment for all the sins that He could otherwise hold against you? He didn’t have to do that. He could simply hold YOU accountable for every evil word, thought, and deed, you have committed over your entire lifetime. He could show you all that at the judgment (if you had any doubt you committed them) and cast you into the lake of fire, and He would be completely JUST to do that. He could say to you, You will pay for all those sins by burning for them for all eternity. But instead, He sent His own sinless Son to take on flesh, live a perfect, sinless life, and then suffer and bleed and die FOR YOU!! And what is your response? To simply parrot or repeat some statement about we each are responsible for our own sins; no one else could die for them? That IS true in terms of us each being responsible and held accountable by God for our sins, and no other sinner being able to die for them. But Christ was the sinless Lamb of God that God Himself sent to pay for them. That is a totally different situation. Reject that and you will die in your sins. Then, all I can say is, you will be paying for all of them yourself for all eternity.


Peace

 

[Zulkiflim]

Re: what is original sin? some questions to the chrisitians and all are welcome to answer

Salaam,

Nevertheless, let me say this. Sin produces death. But it is not always physical death. If not physical, what other kind of death is there here and now, except spiritual death? God said to Adam, “In the day you eat thereof, you shall surely die.” Did Adam die physically “in the day [he ate] thereof”? Quite apart from the one-day-equals-a-thousand-years idea, Gen. 5:5 says Adam died at the age of 930 years. He did not die, literally or physically, the very day he ate. So how else could it be said that he died, if not spiritually? If he was body, soul, and spirit, which part died if not his spirit? And why is his hiding from God not clear evidence of his spiritual death?

Thus again i say you are assuming it is spiritual death aint it,so let me ask this.You say that 1 day of God is equal to 1000 years of man...
Can i say that Adam/Eve was cast out out of heaven (let us assume it is a 24 hour period,god years) at 3AM and was cast on earth from that time,so he will be on earth for 21hrs(god time),but in actual fact will be 930day (earth day or mankind time)...So cna it be said that they died on one day? Yes it can,,,thy started to die the moment they started to eat of the fruit..

“Follow me, and let the dead bury their dead” (Matt. 8:22). What does that mean to you?

What i think is just plain and simply rude...i dont think jesus ever said these word but made up by man..
It would violate the 10 commandment to honour thy mother and father...does the commandment say only in life?Did jesus teach to dishonour the dead?

“She who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives.”

Umm if you go online it say say much about other people who work good deed and are pious and they are spoken well.So that verse only refers to people who take their own selfish needs first than other....

HEre are the prvious verses

4

But if any widow have children or nephews, let them learn first to shew piety at home, and to requite their parents: for that is good and acceptable before God.
5

Now she that is a widow indeed, and desolate, trusteth in God, and continueth in supplications and prayers night and day.
trusteth 1st Cor 7:32

So for the rest of your verses are intepreted to mean what you wnat..there is exact verse that say they died for spiritually..

As for your nxt part,again you are wondering about whethr to answer directly if jesus died for all sin except original sin...or all sin?And as you say it does not specifically say ORIGINAL SIN,thus then the forgiveness is limited...Do you then know which sin is forgiven and which is not?
for that is the power of interpretation right?

Because all people still face physical death and because all people come into this life totally clueless as to spiritual things (or spiritually dead, as I would call it), it is evident that the “curse” or judgment of God upon Adam and Eve as to their “death” when they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, was not “forgiven” or removed, as such. That effect, death, was passed on to all men, down to this present day. We still die. We still are born spiritually dead. That’s why we need to be born again.

May i ask,when you say death is the curse of original sin.Ok..then i ask you,When Adam was around he lived till 930 years,,,God gave him to live all those years and bore othr propehcts and lived well to his old age...

Q1)that was blessing from god..or do you consider that a curse?
Q2) What do you say about the low life time of human nowadays all less that 100 years...is that a blessing or a curse?Do note that people of old lived far longer and in time out life time slow ly reduced...In your context as death,does that mena we are sinning more NOW than before even the born again?

Concerning your second question, let me say this. Just as “original sin” is not specifically called that in Scripture, it does not say that Jesus died specifically for “original sin.” It says He died for our sins, plural. If the effect of Adams’ sin was to make many sinners, that effect will remain as long as men are born into this life. They will grow up, gain the knowledge of good and evil, and will commit the evil---will become “sinners” by choice. When that occurs they are separated from God by their sins and until born again, they will remain in their sins and may ultimately die in their sins. The only way to overcome those sins is to accept the sacrifice Jesus made when He paid for them on the Cross.

Again this goes back to the othr qustion i had,why is it chrisitan/cahtolics whom have been in that religon for generation still show the curse ? If the parents are already forgiven and accepted jesus ,does that mean his children still suffer?Is it not better if the childrn of such familees be born free of curses and take the punishment upon thmeselves when they do err? Just like adam and eve was punished ONLY WHEN THEY ERRED and not before?

And so to sum it up,my thought is that,you try to define his death and his affect in an unmeasureable way.for me as a plain man..and not as a muslim,why would a god say he loves and forgives then lets the curses remain?

Like i said before,if as you say god sent his "son",a "pure" "sinless" man to die for man sin,,if he cna go to such extent surely he cna remove the curses that has plagued mankind or womankind to be exact....it should be trivial,right..

But here we have a discussion on the affect of his "death" and it is not apparent and contradictory to the bible..or rahter contrary to the fahter..
so either the son forgives but has no power...and the fahter is still angry..

thank for the discussion it is nice to learn and explore new things..

 

[Chief1]

Re: what is original sin? some questions to the chrisitians and all are welcome to answer

Phil12123 Excellent post!
Zulkiflim I think you still don't get what the likes of Phil are trying to explain.
Of course Jesus (who was God incarnate when he walked this earth) can do as he wishes & remove all effects of original sin & He promises to do just that one day (New heavens & earth in the Revelation) Untill then we ALL live with the effects of Adams sins & the sins of many others. Our whole world is dieing & yes our years have been shortened because of our wickedness.
Is the Father still angry with us? No, but we are left to live with the consequences of Adams & Eve's sin. If there were no consequences for our actions (right or wrong) we wouldn't care whether we did right or wrong. It's a simple principal that YOU & I observe constantly & submit ourselves to every day.
I know that if I go out & shoot someone today even thou the act might only take a moment to do the effects of that act will be around for the rest of time. God may forgive me but the only way to wipe out the effects would be to travel back in time before the shooting & take a different course of action (not to shoot ) We can be forgiven for the ACT which is sinfull but do you think God is going to "rewind" our lives to avoid the effects of our sins????????? What a strange world that would be! You'd be driveing off to work, next Screech!!! the car would back up 100mtrs because someone sinned & asked forgiveness & God was going to make it all as if it never happened. That's not how God chooses to operate, rather we learn to live with the consequences of our actions.

Peace!

 

[Zulkiflim]

Re: what is original sin? some questions to the chrisitians and all are welcome to answer

Phil12123 Excellent post!
Zulkiflim I think you still don't get what the likes of Phil are trying to explain.
Of course Jesus (who was God incarnate when he walked this earth) can do as he wishes & remove all effects of original sin & He promises to do just that one day (New heavens & earth in the Revelation) Untill then we ALL live with the effects of Adams sins & the sins of many others. Our whole world is dieing & yes our years have been shortened because of our wickedness.
Is the Father still angry with us? No, but we are left to live with the consequences of Adams & Eve's sin. If there were no consequences for our actions (right or wrong) we wouldn't care whether we did right or wrong. It's a simple principal that YOU & I observe constantly & submit ourselves to every day.
I know that if I go out & shoot someone today even thou the act might only take a moment to do the effects of that act will be around for the rest of time. God may forgive me but the only way to wipe out the effects would be to travel back in time before the shooting & take a different course of action (not to shoot ) We can be forgiven for the ACT which is sinfull but do you think God is going to "rewind" our lives to avoid the effects of our sins????????? What a strange world that would be! You'd be driveing off to work, next Screech!!! the car would back up 100mtrs because someone sinned & asked forgiveness & God was going to make it all as if it never happened. That's not how God chooses to operate, rather we learn to live with the consequences of our actions.

Peace!

Salaam,

Again i ask casue when you explain it it isyour interpretation of what you think god is thinking..

Your interpretation that god forgives but leave the curse alone.

But we are talking about GOD not man.You finite wisdom is limited while god is not.
your power is limited but god is not.

So response is still the same,tell me categorically if god forgives all SIN including original sin.

If not then please tell me which sin is forgiven.

Also i agree that god can forgive a murderer but the deceased will still be lost,that is a spiritual forgiveness correct,and from there come peace.He will still be punished for his deeds but he wont judged for that sin.

But now,despite all the numerous chrisitan and the genreation of christians the curse on women of child birth pain is still apparent.
we are not talking about man forgivness but god..In many stories in the bible there are times when god cursed then forgave and the curse was lifted.
Thus god inflicted a physical curse,yet supposedly forgives and leave the curse behind?

We are talking about god here,do you trully worship a god that forgives but yet leave the punishment?
Is that a sign of a loving and understanding god?

 

[4-Christ-Alone]

Re: what is original sin? some questions to the chrisitians and all are welcome to answer

I would like to add that sin is not something that exsists like an apple or a banana, its not a "thing". Just like cold doesnt exsit, cold is just the lack of heat, the same as darkness is the lack of light. In the same way sin does not exsist it is lack of goodness or better lack of God.

I believe when Adam sinned he brought death into the world as God warned and a seperation between man and God. And i believe we inherited this nature from adam.

I might be goin off topic here but im goin to tell of a story i read that might help people understand what God did for our sin....

There was 2 boys who grew up together being best freinds. eventually when they grew up they grew apart. One of them became a judje and another became a criminal. A while later the criminal had to appear in court against his old friend who was to judge him. The judge recognised his old friend, and because he loved him he didnt want to punish him, but as he was a fair judge he had to! So he fined his old freind, stepped down as judge, wrote a check and offered to pay his friends punishment! If his friend didnt want his gift of the cheque he wud have to pay the punishment himself.

In the same way christians beleive this is what God has done for the world, man sinned, God has to judje sin but at the same time loves us so he stepped down to take our punishment for us. But the punishment isnt only a fine its eternal seperation from God, and it didnt cost God just a check it cost him his only begotten son.

God bless

 

[Ghazi]

Re: what is original sin? some questions to the chrisitians and all are welcome to answer

take our punishment for us.

hold one why does god have to take the punishment in the story you related the judge would have had to answer to a higher authority but who does god have to answer to?

 

[4-Christ-Alone]

Re: what is original sin? some questions to the chrisitians and all are welcome to answer

i was expecting a lame reply to that story, cmon ur brighter than that, im ususing the stroy as an example!

Thats like asking me "How do u know the judge could afford to pay his friends fine" Thats not imprtant and neither is the question u asked.

 

[Ghazi]

Re: what is original sin? some questions to the chrisitians and all are welcome to answer

i was expecting a lame reply to that story, cmon ur brighter than that, im ususing the stroy as an example!

Thats like asking me "How do u know the judge could afford to pay his friends fine" Thats not imprtant and neither is the question u asked.

Actually it is, God is the most high who created everything so why does he have to take punishment when he created everything, no let me put you in situation say for example you were a king and your old friend commited murder and you had the power to forgive him and forget about it and the punishment for murder was death, would you A) Forgive him or B) forgive him and kill your self, remember you don't answer to anyone.

 

[Zulkiflim]

Re: what is original sin? some questions to the chrisitians and all are welcome to answer

I would like to add that sin is not something that exsists like an apple or a banana, its not a "thing". Just like cold doesnt exsit, cold is just the lack of heat, the same as darkness is the lack of light. In the same way sin does not exsist it is lack of goodness or better lack of God.

I believe when Adam sinned he brought death into the world as God warned and a seperation between man and God. And i believe we inherited this nature from adam.

I might be goin off topic here but im goin to tell of a story i read that might help people understand what God did for our sin....

There was 2 boys who grew up together being best freinds. eventually when they grew up they grew apart. One of them became a judje and another became a criminal. A while later the criminal had to appear in court against his old friend who was to judge him. The judge recognised his old friend, and because he loved him he didnt want to punish him, but as he was a fair judge he had to! So he fined his old freind, stepped down as judge, wrote a check and offered to pay his friends punishment! If his friend didnt want his gift of the cheque he wud have to pay the punishment himself.

In the same way christians beleive this is what God has done for the world, man sinned, God has to judje sin but at the same time loves us so he stepped down to take our punishment for us. But the punishment isnt only a fine its eternal seperation from God, and it didnt cost God just a check it cost him his only begotten son.

God bless

Salaam,

I agree that sin is not tangible but supposedly the curse for original sin is quite clear according to the bible..
thorn thislt,women cursed with child birth and of course as you say death.

Heya,also using your story right,i assume that the crimial is fined with a large amount....and the judge punished then offered to pay for it..

in this case isnt the punishment averted? the criminal did not pay a single cent for the judge,his friend paid for it..so the criminal did not suffer.

But in the case i am placing to you now.if another judge say that he is not forgiven and is unrepentant he ahs to pay a double amount..

that is what i emant by one (jesus) forgiving and another still punishing(the father).

Do you understand?


So supposedly god died for man sin...but the curse or punishment he leaves behind..

WHY?


i think basically you cannot come to grip with the notion that you are forgiven but yet cursed,you think that you are spiritually forgiven but still suffer the curse original sin.

But that is just your interpreation,,the curse remain,the notion of spiritual forgivness is also an "explanation" of man desire.

 

[4-Christ-Alone]

Re: what is original sin? some questions to the chrisitians and all are welcome to answer

Actually it is, God is the most high who created everything so why does he have to take punishment when he created everything, no let me put you in situation say for example you were a king and your old friend commited murder and you had the power to forgive him and forget about it and the punishment for murder was death, would you A) Forgive him or B) forgive him and kill your self, remember you don't answer to anyone.

Yes God is the most high who created everything, but u have to understand God has a nature, u can say he can forgive sin without punishemnt but that wud go against his nature as the judge not punishing wud go against his job. its not a question whether God has the power to forgive, its a question of what is Gods nature? his nature is to punish wrong doing, and what makes God so awesome is that he came down and paid that for us.

i think basically you cannot come to grip with the notion that you are forgiven but yet cursed,you think that you are spiritually forgiven but still suffer the curse original sin.

explain what u mean? does this answer u in saying Jesus died so we could be forgiven, Jesus dying didnt mean sin was gone, even christian sin, as long as man is choosing sin then the effects of sin is going to take place, but if man chooses Christ one day that curse will be lifted and we will all be made sinless.

God bless

 

[Ghazi]

Re: what is original sin? some questions to the chrisitians and all are welcome to answer

Yes God is the most high who created everything, but u have to understand God has a nature, u can say he can forgive sin without punishemnt but that wud go against his nature as the judge not punishing wud go against his job. its not a question whether God has the power to forgive, its a question of what is Gods nature? his nature is to punish wrong doing, and what makes God so awesome is that he came down and paid that for us.



explain what u mean? does this answer u in saying Jesus died so we could be forgiven, Jesus dying didnt mean sin was gone, even christian sin, as long as man is choosing sin then the effects of sin is going to take place, but if man chooses Christ one day that curse will be lifted and we will all be made sinless.

God bless

But what judge would punish them selfs god is pure so why would he inflict punishment on him self cause of a sin of humans.

 

[4-Christ-Alone]

Re: what is original sin? some questions to the chrisitians and all are welcome to answer

Im sure you have heard of the word "Love" . We messud up and God help his children, if a fathers son was in trouble he wud help him, mosts fathers wud die for his children because he loves them, Just think how much more our father in heaven loves us!

God bless friend