Poll for Muslims - 1st Allegiance

[searchingsoul]

This reasoning makes no sense as the reason terrorisem started is by creatin g an inbalance and strife in another peoples land and then ignoring or silencing there voices when they spoke up...

Are you referring to Palestine?

terrorisem is a very strange word? it is used majority of the time against those who have little means of attacking back at aggressors who are in there land and have an unfair advantages over there people...and those who attack back are called terrorists?

The problem I have with terrorist activities is that they target innocents. I undertand that most people who object to the reasons leading to terrorist activities do not actually support the act of terrorism itself.

agreed that to kill innocents is not part of our path...thats not what im saying here im talking of what causes terrorisem and how to cure it...

by attacking a country beacuse a group attacked you from it is just asking for the creation of more groups like that...

There is no denying that more terrorists will be created by attacking a country which harbors terrorists. I do agree with the political decision to attack countries which in fact do harbor terrorists.

why would i attack your neighbour if you are the one who broke my window?

im just asking for trouble...

iraq had nothing to do with terrorisem yet it was attacked and what has this all gained!? nothing but the creation of more terrorist groups...

Although some reports cite terrorist support within Iraq (prior to the war), I think there is more more evidence to suggest that Iraq was attacked more for self serving factors of President Bush. Afghanistan is a different issue.

The cure to terrorisem is the creation of true justice and nothing less...

I don't agree. I'm not saying that justice shouldn't be sought. I simply feel that terrorism is the incorrect method employed to seek justice.

And no innocent deserves to be killed...muslim ,christian or jew...

that is what we must stop...
Innocents never deserve to be killed. But since I'm unsympathetic toward terrorist activities I am unwilling to sacrifice the safety of my country for the innocents which reside in countries which harbor terrorists.

In the grand scheme of things I think that a country which defends itself against terrorist activities is less responsible for the deaths of innocents since war does not target innocents. Terrorism on the other hand does target innocents.

 

[Rou]

In the grand scheme of things I think that a country which defends itself against terrorist activities is less responsible for the deaths of innocents since war does not target innocents. Terrorism on the other hand does target innocents.

This is the problem by justfying innocent deaths leads to anger...

and repriseles....

think if we all sought justice then we would ask for those groups to be stopped not countries attacked!??

for 3000 people who died on 9/11 how many children have been killed??

for 50 people in london dying how many thousands of lives have been displaced and destroyed?!??

thats not justice....

iraq was an excuse to gain power but afgan was not!?

its clear that bush and his gov are there to gain power at the cost of innocents deaths why would it be that they attacked afgan for any other reason but to gain foot holds and gain power?

bin laden was not from afganistan and the people of afgan did not back him...yet there world was turned upside down...

by doing what bush did and knowingly at that he has created what the american people were told to fear...terrorists... he needed displaced children he needed surviovors of massacres so that they rise from ashes hating america and wanting revenge...afgan was to breed terrorists that did not ever before exist on such a level as they do today...

To be a hero you need a enemy...and bush created his...

indeed there were issues before 9/11 but the following of such groups was minute compared to today...

if there is anyone to blame for deaths due to terrorisem it is those goverments that back tyrants that harm innocents just so they can gain foot holds and power...and then ignore the pleas of innocents when they are harmed no i am not only reffering to palastine.. the rules of the UN and the running of the world has never been fair economics and inbalance that is created to keep power is what is unfair...

we all as good people should take these people out of power and find good leaders....

but until this is done there will be angry people and there will be wars...

justice is what is needed...when innocents are hurt we should speak up and there pleas not be ignored...

justice...

 

[searchingsoul]

bin laden was not from afganistan and the people of afgan did not back him...yet there world was turned upside down...

Did the government of Afghanistan back Osama Bin Laden?

 

[Rou]

Did the government of Afghanistan back Osama Bin Laden?

the taliban did not authorise for US troops to come on there land they never said they backed OBL or what he is accussed of doing...

afgan never opted to fight for OBL the fighting started when they were attacked in there land...where was the disscusion!? whats the UN for!?

if the UN went in and they were refused perhaps there would be grounds but if a country refuses to let your troops into there land and you attack the whole of it i can see why they might fight back..

dont get me wrong 9/11 was wrong and whoever did it should be brought to justice but by creating the destruction of afganistan bush done nothing but try to boost his ratings and create terrorists...

all bush had to do is do what afgan asked provide any proof that OBL was behind this instead he tore apart there country...

unfair acts are what create terrorists we must stop these acts along with terrorists...

 

[searchingsoul]

the taliban did not authorise for US troops to come on there land they never said they backed OBL or what he is accussed of doing...

afgan never opted to fight for OBL the fighting started when they were attacked in there land...where was the disscusion!? whats the UN for!?

if the UN went in and they were refused perhaps there would be grounds but if a country refuses to let your troops into there land and you attack the whole of it i can see why they might fight back..

dont get me wrong 9/11 was wrong and whoever did it should be brought to justice but by creating the destruction of afganistan bush done nothing but try to boost his ratings and create terrorists...

all bush had to do is do what afgan asked provide any proof that OBL was behind this instead he tore apart there country...

unfair acts are what create terrorists we must stop these acts along with terrorists...

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/1999/02/990210-bin-laden.htm

Afghanistan refused to expel Osama Bin Laden. In my opinion this justifies the invasion of Afghanistan. I don't subscribe to conspiracy theories which paint Bin Laden as innocent. In theory even if Bin Laden was innocent it would have been in the best interest of the the Afghan people for him to be surrendered. Failure for the Afghan government to act in the best interest of their people resulted in many civilian losses. The USA government is not responsible for bad decisions carried out by the Taliban.

 

[HeiGou]

the taliban did not authorise for US troops to come on there land they never said they backed OBL or what he is accussed of doing...

Well obviously they did not authorise the US to enter Afghanistan although the legal government of Afghanistan, the Northern Alliance, did. But they did say they backed OBL. They refused to hand him over to the Americans.

afgan never opted to fight for OBL the fighting started when they were attacked in there land...where was the disscusion!? whats the UN for!?

They did opt to fight for him. They had a simply choice: they could hand him over or they could fight. They opted to fight. There was a long discussion with the Taliban. They refused to co-operate. Let me ask you to consider a parallel, some pirates attacks some Muslims in India and the local king could not hand the pirates over or restore the Muslims and their property. So the Muslim attacked India. Do you think that was wrong? Surely the Americans were provoked more seriously than the Muslims were?

dont get me wrong 9/11 was wrong and whoever did it should be brought to justice but by creating the destruction of afganistan bush done nothing but try to boost his ratings and create terrorists...

How could OBL be brought to justice any other way? The only way to deal with terrorism is to kill them. They need to be rendered powerless and they need to serve as a warning to others. We do not negotiate with murderers or rapists. Or we should not. We jail them and execute them.

all bush had to do is do what afgan asked provide any proof that OBL was behind this instead he tore apart there country...

unfair acts are what create terrorists we must stop these acts along with terrorists...

And what level of proof would have satisfied the Afghans you think? You know, given that most Muslims around here refuse to accept that OBL had anything to do with it despite his boasts - including you if I remember correctly. Invasion was the only way.

Hatred creates terrorism. Justice is the solution. Hatred is what Afghans have, but justice is what America is bringing.

 

[Muhammad]

and Greetings,

As Muslims, our first and foremost "allegiance" is to Allaah and His Messenger (peace be upon him). This does not mean, however, that we do not obey the laws of the country in which we live, since we are commanded to fulfil our trusts and responsibilities, as the scholars of Islamqa.com write (in the context of stealing):

When a Muslim enters a kaafir country, it is as if he entering into a peaceful agreement with them – which is the visa which is given to him to enable him to enter their country – so if he takes their wealth unlawfully, then he is breaking that agreement, in addition to being a thief.

....

Al-Sarkhasi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: It is not right for a Muslim who is on peaceful terms with them to betray them, because betrayal is haraam. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Every betrayer will have a banner by his backside on the Day of Resurrection, by which his betrayal will be known.” If he betrays them and steals their wealth, and brings it to the Muslim lands, it is not right for a Muslim to buy from him if he knows about that, because he has obtained it in an evil manner, and buying from him is encouraging him in that, which it is not right for the Muslim to do. The basic principle in this matter is the hadeeth of al-Mugheerah ibn Shu’bah (may Allaah be pleased with him), when he killed his companions and brought their wealth to Madeenah and became Muslim, and asked the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) to take the khums of his wealth, and he said, “As for your Islam, we accept it, and as for the wealth it is obtained through treachery, and we have no need of it.”

Al-Mabsoot, 10/96

Furthermore, we understand an important point in the following hadeeth:

Narrated Anas: Allah's Apostle said, "Help your brother, whether he is an oppressor or he is an oppressed one. People asked, "O Allah's Apostle! It is all right to help him if he is oppressed, but how should we help him if he is an oppressor?" The Prophet said, "By preventing him from oppressing others." (Bukhari)

So we do not help our fellow Muslims if they are doing wrong by adding to their wrong, rather we enjoin the good and advise them to what is correct.

-----------

I will just add that this thread is going off-topic - the discussion about the caliphate does not belong here. I also came across the following comment,

What will scholars do!? they will say this verse is correct and this law is right that is by there opinion they are just as human as u and me...

allah gave us all the quran for us all to understand not just scholars...

there judgment will not find a leader there knowledge will help clairfy quranic verses...

a leader needs to be one who see's clearly what is needed and that is justice and he should not be afraid to stand up for it...

I think the status of the Scholars of Islaam is being seriously downplayed here, since it is with the help of their knowledge and understanding of the religion that we become better Muslims and learn about our religion, and it is only befitting that such people of knowledge make important decisions with regards to the Ummah. Let us not forget that the scholars are the inheritors of the Prophets and while the Qur'aan was revealed to all of mankind, the preservation of knowledge by and in-depth understanding of the Scholars (not limited to the science of the Qur'aan) enables us to understand its teachings properly, as well as the rest of the religion.

In my humble opinion, I believe discussions such as these (calling for a caliphate) hold very little benefit. Often we see people arguing over such matters when they themselves have so very little knowledge or actions to implement their words. I am not referring to specific individuals in this thread, but rather the general concept that is repeated on this forum.

Wouldn't it make more sense if we understood Islaam, perfected our prayers, studied the Qur'aan and examined ourselves before rushing to make claims and calls for the rest of the Ummah? Do we have to wait until a leader is appointed before we start becoming better Muslims, in which case what happens if we die before a leader is appointed? Why not prepare ourselves to be able to accept a leader in the first place, and place our trust in Allaah who has promised a good end for the believers.

{And indeed We did send Messengers before you (O Muhammad SAW) to their own peoples. They came to them with clear proofs, then, We took vengeance on those who committed crimes (disbelief, setting partners in worship with Allah, sins, etc.), and (as for) the believers it was incumbent upon Us to help (them)} [Qur'aan, 30:47]

{...And never will Allah grant to the disbelievers a way (to triumph) over the believers} [Qur'aan, 4:141]

May Allaah forgive me if I have said anything incorrect.

 

[Ghazi]

calling for a caliphate)

This is where the problem lies, I have spoken to many muslims in regards to palistine iraq and other countries and I hear the same old "We need a caliphate" they say we need to be orginised before we can help the ummah, so I think we need to get orginised fast and revive the ummah fast.

 

[Ghazi]

Wouldn't it make more sense if we understood Islaam, perfected our prayers, studied the Qur'aan and examined ourselves before rushing to make claims and calls for the rest of the Ummah? Do we have to wait until a leader is appointed before we start becoming better Muslims

we can do this while trying to implament an islamic state, but the ummah is weak unless were united and have some sort of leadership we aint gonna come close to the glory islam had back in the day.

 

[------]

but the ummah is weak unless were united and have some sort of leadership we aint gonna come close to the glory islam had back in the day.

Masha'Allah - very well said!

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

islam will rise again one day and i WANNA SEE IT RISE WHILE IM ALIVE AND STILL ABLE TO FIGHT !!!!

if only i was like 25 or somethin people would take me a little more seriously, why'd i have to be 18 :heated:

 

[nimrod]

Snake Legs, judging from the posts on this thread, I would say most folks are more loyal to their fellow Muslim than they are to any particular country.

That is a problem, all we have to do to see it is to have a look at what Rou is posting and many of the replies he is receiving.

Rou has repeatedly stated that Iraq was attacked for what happened on 9-11.

Almost No one seems to be disputing his misinformation.

Iraq was attacked because Saddam refused to comply with the cease-fire agreements made after he was driven from Kuwait.
Saddam was almost daily shooting at planes that were enforcing U.N. mandates.
Saddam refused to openly/transparently destroy his WMDs.
Saddam was making such a good effort at making everyone think he still possessed WMDs, that many of his top people believed he still had them and was ready to use them.

There is, still today, much doubt about if Saddam really destroyed the WMDs or shipped them out or hid them (much like he hid the jets in the sand).

That is why Saddam/Iraq was attacked.

The British soldier was lawfully carrying out his duties in a war that is being fought because Saddam refused to honor his agreements with the U.N.

The war in Afghanistan is being fought because Ben Laden thought it was a good idea to commit acts of terror against the USA. He claimed responsibility for the embassy bombings. He also claimed responsibility for other acts of terror.

Mostly the whole world believes, rightly so imo, that he is also responsible for 9-11.

Afghanistan refused to hand him over after he had committed several acts of war against the USA.
Afghanistan continued its support of the training bases ran by Bin Laden and in no way seemed to be doing anything other than enabling Bin Laden to continue to do what he had been doing.

So if the British soldier, of the Muslim persuasion, is killed fighting for British interests then he too is doing what is lawful.

It is perfectly legal and moral for two countries to enter into a mutual protection contract to assist one another in the lawful defense of their interests.

Thanks
Nimrod

 

[Ghazi]

islam will rise again one day and i WANNA SEE IT RISE WHILE IM ALIVE AND STILL ABLE TO FIGHT !!!!

if only i was like 25 or somethin people would take me a little more seriously, why'd i have to be 18 :heated:

I've got that problem too I'm also 18, I remeber back in my jahil days everyone was like come to islam, no that I'm here I see people often put me down due to my age and say things like stick with the basics leave the big issues which effect the ummah subhanallah.

 

[Thanaa]

if you had to choose, what country would you owe your first allegiance to:
1. the country i live in.
2. the country of my ethnic group
3. the ummah

My Country.
No Question.

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

I've got that problem too I'm also 18, I remeber back in my jahil days everyone was like come to islam, no that I'm here I see people often put me down due to my age and say things like stick with the basics leave the big issues which effect the ummah subhanallah.

ye bro i get that all the time

"why are you stressing, what can you do? Your one man, what difference can you make, you will cause trouble to your family, BLAH BLAH BLAH".

its like, you only get one life, one chance, do you want jannatul firdaus or the lowest jannah?
people just dont get this :heated:

:salamext:

 

[Ghazi]

jannatul firdaus or the lowest jannah?

Exactly I want the best of the best instead of putting people down they should helping them succeed, I think the reason behind this is they see that they're not doing much so to make them selfs feel better they might try and stop others just an opinion.

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Exactly I want the best of the best instead of putting people down they should helping them succeed, I think the reason behind this is they see that they're not doing much so to make them selfs feel better they might try and stop others just an opinion.

no they feel useless because they think even if they tried ye they cant achieve anything. The thing is no-ones tried, even i havent tried, right now am in the process of strengthening my imaan, but best believe mujaahid is the best way to go, so thats my path inshaAllah!!!

:salamext:

 

[Rou]

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/1999/02/990210-bin-laden.htm

Afghanistan refused to expel Osama Bin Laden. In my opinion this justifies the invasion of Afghanistan. I don't subscribe to conspiracy theories which paint Bin Laden as innocent. In theory even if Bin Laden was innocent it would have been in the best interest of the the Afghan people for him to be surrendered. Failure for the Afghan government to act in the best interest of their people resulted in many civilian losses. The USA government is not responsible for bad decisions carried out by the Taliban.

indeed we are all entitled to our opinion...and fair enough to yours but to attack a whole country on the basis of one man does not justfiy the deaths of innocents to me...just as today israel uses that excuse to take land in palastine again on the basis of one soilder...

these are games that are played in order to find favour through media...

and as for bin laden being innocent or guilty there is no proof either way...

him being guilty is just as much of a conspiracy as him being innocnt..

as i said before i have no problem with him being guilty or innocent i just prefr to know the truth of the matter..

either way what has happend has happend...allah is the best of judges...

may he guide us well..

 

[Rou]

Well obviously they did not authorise the US to enter Afghanistan although the legal government of Afghanistan, the Northern Alliance, did. But they did say they backed OBL. They refused to hand him over to the Americans.



They did opt to fight for him. They had a simply choice: they could hand him over or they could fight. They opted to fight. There was a long discussion with the Taliban. They refused to co-operate. Let me ask you to consider a parallel, some pirates attacks some Muslims in India and the local king could not hand the pirates over or restore the Muslims and their property. So the Muslim attacked India. Do you think that was wrong? Surely the Americans were provoked more seriously than the Muslims were?



How could OBL be brought to justice any other way? The only way to deal with terrorism is to kill them. They need to be rendered powerless and they need to serve as a warning to others. We do not negotiate with murderers or rapists. Or we should not. We jail them and execute them.



And what level of proof would have satisfied the Afghans you think? You know, given that most Muslims around here refuse to accept that OBL had anything to do with it despite his boasts - including you if I remember correctly. Invasion was the only way.

Hatred creates terrorism. Justice is the solution. Hatred is what Afghans have, but justice is what America is bringing.

For one i would not attack india i would find those responsible and attack them...

what proof is there that OBL attacked US? could you provide some proof?

not random info the media provide proof not found in a random cave that looks as fake as they get to anyone with eyes...and what boasts!??

whats a terrorist? and you think by killing these types of terrorists you will stop them?>? you but dig the hole deeper...afganistan was a country now it has become a haven for terrorists and iraq they are rising from the ashes of war torn countries...

your making the mistake of including all terrorists in your mind as one they are not...

majority of terrorists attacking the west are doing so beacuse they feel treated unfairly and there voices are silenced therefore they take up arms...there links are not directed or linked with those terrorists in kashmir..

the two are totally diffrent issues and many indians are linking them as the same thing and so do others and thats when the trouble starts...

As for you saying OBL didnt do it that is not my concern its the facts that are how is this proven? if he has then fair enough bring him down but the facts dont link up...

bush's hunger for power and domination of oil and trade in the middle east seems quite obvious so i see no man taking bush down he sits in front of us all with quite clear motives...where is his punishment for breaking UN decisons and going into iraq?

where is his voice to stop israel why dont they land there troops in israel?

i have not condemnation for american people or christians or hindus or africans its the wrong doers i am intrested in...and those who ignore the crys of innocents...

where is there punishment?

 

[searchingsoul]

indeed we are all entitled to our opinion...and fair enough to yours but to attack a whole country on the basis of one man does not justfiy the deaths of innocents to me...just as today israel uses that excuse to take land in palastine again on the basis of one soilder...

these are games that are played in order to find favour through media...

and as for bin laden being innocent or guilty there is no proof either way...

him being guilty is just as much of a conspiracy as him being innocnt..

as i said before i have no problem with him being guilty or innocent i just prefr to know the truth of the matter..

either way what has happend has happend...allah is the best of judges...

may he guide us well..

One probably has to believe in the guilt of Osama Bin Laden before the invasion would make sense. I understand your viewpoint but I still don't agree. But hey, that's okay too.