Poll for Muslims - 1st Allegiance

[Rou]

and Greetings,

As Muslims, our first and foremost "allegiance" is to Allaah and His Messenger (peace be upon him). This does not mean, however, that we do not obey the laws of the country in which we live, since we are commanded to fulfil our trusts and responsibilities, as the scholars of Islamqa.com write (in the context of stealing):





Furthermore, we understand an important point in the following hadeeth:

Narrated Anas: Allah's Apostle said, "Help your brother, whether he is an oppressor or he is an oppressed one. People asked, "O Allah's Apostle! It is all right to help him if he is oppressed, but how should we help him if he is an oppressor?" The Prophet said, "By preventing him from oppressing others." (Bukhari)

So we do not help our fellow Muslims if they are doing wrong by adding to their wrong, rather we enjoin the good and advise them to what is correct.

-----------

I will just add that this thread is going off-topic - the discussion about the caliphate does not belong here. I also came across the following comment,

I think the status of the Scholars of Islaam is being seriously downplayed here, since it is with the help of their knowledge and understanding of the religion that we become better Muslims and learn about our religion, and it is only befitting that such people of knowledge make important decisions with regards to the Ummah. Let us not forget that the scholars are the inheritors of the Prophets and while the Qur'aan was revealed to all of mankind, the preservation of knowledge by and in-depth understanding of the Scholars (not limited to the science of the Qur'aan) enables us to understand its teachings properly, as well as the rest of the religion.

In my humble opinion, I believe discussions such as these (calling for a caliphate) hold very little benefit. Often we see people arguing over such matters when they themselves have so very little knowledge or actions to implement their words. I am not referring to specific individuals in this thread, but rather the general concept that is repeated on this forum.

Wouldn't it make more sense if we understood Islaam, perfected our prayers, studied the Qur'aan and examined ourselves before rushing to make claims and calls for the rest of the Ummah? Do we have to wait until a leader is appointed before we start becoming better Muslims, in which case what happens if we die before a leader is appointed? Why not prepare ourselves to be able to accept a leader in the first place, and place our trust in Allaah who has promised a good end for the believers.

{And indeed We did send Messengers before you (O Muhammad SAW) to their own peoples. They came to them with clear proofs, then, We took vengeance on those who committed crimes (disbelief, setting partners in worship with Allah, sins, etc.), and (as for) the believers it was incumbent upon Us to help (them)} [Qur'aan, 30:47]

{...And never will Allah grant to the disbelievers a way (to triumph) over the believers} [Qur'aan, 4:141]

May Allaah forgive me if I have said anything incorrect.

Perhaps you ar right perhaps you are wrong i guess only time will tell brother but what does a caliphate really mean?! what is being called for here? all i ask for is muslim unity even that sems a far fetched idea... someone somewhere needs to stop innocents dying just beacuse they were born muslim and in the middle east...

once that is done we can stop those who harm any innocents in any land...

how hard has it become to be muslim in a western country today? give it a few years andyou will notice more muslims becoming westernised...
where will our understanding be then? we need some unity to keep our needs in focus otherwise we will lose our way and we wont even know it..fair enough you are strong in faith as am i and many here but what of those who are not!? do they deserve not a message? do we just allow our religon to be waterd down as it is being planned??

there is no place for extremisem true...but what of the great effort being made to westernise muslims all around the globe?? iraq and afgan will be the new turkey...watered down versions of islam...

no one calls for war just protection for our people wether in the form of a caliphate or not we need unity...

 

[Rou]

Snake Legs, judging from the posts on this thread, I would say most folks are more loyal to their fellow Muslim than they are to any particular country.

That is a problem, all we have to do to see it is to have a look at what Rou is posting and many of the replies he is receiving.

Rou has repeatedly stated that Iraq was attacked for what happened on 9-11.

Almost No one seems to be disputing his misinformation.

Iraq was attacked because Saddam refused to comply with the cease-fire agreements made after he was driven from Kuwait.
Saddam was almost daily shooting at planes that were enforcing U.N. mandates.
Saddam refused to openly/transparently destroy his WMDs.
Saddam was making such a good effort at making everyone think he still possessed WMDs, that many of his top people believed he still had them and was ready to use them.

There is, still today, much doubt about if Saddam really destroyed the WMDs or shipped them out or hid them (much like he hid the jets in the sand).

That is why Saddam/Iraq was attacked.

The British soldier was lawfully carrying out his duties in a war that is being fought because Saddam refused to honor his agreements with the U.N.

The war in Afghanistan is being fought because Ben Laden thought it was a good idea to commit acts of terror against the USA. He claimed responsibility for the embassy bombings. He also claimed responsibility for other acts of terror.

Mostly the whole world believes, rightly so imo, that he is also responsible for 9-11.

Afghanistan refused to hand him over after he had committed several acts of war against the USA.
Afghanistan continued its support of the training bases ran by Bin Laden and in no way seemed to be doing anything other than enabling Bin Laden to continue to do what he had been doing.

So if the British soldier, of the Muslim persuasion, is killed fighting for British interests then he too is doing what is lawful.

It is perfectly legal and moral for two countries to enter into a mutual protection contract to assist one another in the lawful defense of their interests.

Thanks
Nimrod

There were no WMDS...bush woke up one morning and guessed he would take out saddam to save evryone? i think not he had many years long before 9/11 he cud have done that...


MAjority of people are led to beleive iraq was to do with 9/11 and it helps them accept why it happend its a mind game and afgna was not lawful as one man is not worth the killing and destruction that took place in afgan...the way many innocents ere killed there is not only sick but higly disturbing...fair enough taliban were taken out of goverment and instead now we have the ruthless northen allince in control i guess happy days...they raped and tortured and killed more people than the taliban ever did..

and again i have no problem accpting OBL done what he did if the proof leads to that but so far wheres the proof? pls state it ...

the tape? have a look at the tape and look at thousands of pics of OBL its not him...and if its not him then why is there a tape mae to look like him??
why lie?

 

[Muhammad]

we can do this while trying to implament an islamic state, but the ummah is weak unless were united and have some sort of leadership we aint gonna come close to the glory islam had back in the day.

Question :

My question is regarding the Islamic political system:

What is our priority in the present situation when we don't have a Khalifa: Do we educate people of Islam first before establishing an Islamic state or do we establish the State first? Or do they go hand in hand?

What is the majority of the scholars say about it? Or what is the most correct opinion
​

Answer :

Praise be to Allaah.
​

​

What is required of every Muslim is to practise the religion of Allaah as much as he is able to. The imaamah (Islamic political leadership) has been prescribed for the purpose of establishing the religion of Allaah. No one should think that the fact that there is no imaam at any given time in any given country means that we can be negligent and introverted and not practise or establish any aspect of the religion. Among the people of misguidance during this age and at other times there are those who say that we do not need to establish any of the symbols of Islam until a khaleefah has been appointed over the Muslims and the Islamic state has been established. This is one of the worst kinds of misguidance, and believing this leads to abandoning Jumu’ah prayers, prayer in jamaa’ah, Hajj, jihaad, collecting zakaah, prayer for rain (istisqaa’), Eid prayers, appointing imaams for mosques, calling the adhaan and other things, which amounts to cancelling the rulings of Islam. What do the people who say this have to say about the aayah (interpretation of the meaning): “So keep your duty to Allaah and fear Him as much as you can” [al-Taghaabun 64:16]? What do they have to say about the hadeeth, “Whatever I command you to do, do as much of it as you can”? It is obligatory to take care of all matters of religion, starting with the most important, then the next most important, so we should study the religion of Allaah, the most important aspect of which is knowledge of the teaching of Tawheed, then establishing the symbols and rituals of Islam and the other duties. No doubt occupying oneself with these things is the most important thing, and each person should do everything that he is able to do. There cannot be an Islamic state without proper understanding of the religion and achieving eemaan (faith) and Tawheed, and ridding ourselves of shirk, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Allaah has promised those among you who believe and do righteous good deeds, that He will certainly grant them succession to (the present rulers) in the land, as He granted it to those before them, and that He will grant them the authority to practise their religion which He has chosen for them (i.e. Islam). And He will surely, give them in exchange a safe security after their fear (provided) they (believers) worship Me and do not associate anything (in worship) with Me” [al-Noor 24:55].

The Messenger

(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) stayed in Makkah for thirteen years, calling people to Allaah and teaching Tawheed and ‘Aqeedah, reciting the Revelation to them, debating to the kuffaar with in the best manner, bearing their persecution with patience, as well as praying and establishing the acts of worship which had been prescribed at that time. He did not forgo teaching the religion, although the Islamic state had not been established in Makkah at that time. Moreover, how can an Islamic state be established without an ideological foundation and a society of Muslims who been educated in the religion and have learned it thoroughly? He spoke the truth who said: Establish the Islamic state in yourselves, and it will be established for you in your land. May Allaah bless our Prophet Muhammad.

​

Islam Q&A
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid (www.islam-qa.com)​

And remember, there are many ways to achieve Paradise:

{Successful indeed are the believers. Those who offer their Salat (prayers) with all solemnity and full submissiveness. And those who turn away from Al-Laghw (dirty, false, evil vain talk, falsehood, and all that Allah has forbidden). And those who pay the Zakat . And those who guard their chastity (i.e. private parts, from illegal sexual acts) Except from their wives or (the captives and slaves) that their right hands possess, for then, they are free from blame; But whoever seeks beyond that, then those are the transgressors; Those who are faithfully true to their Amanat (all the duties which Allah has ordained, honesty, moral responsibility and trusts etc.) and to their covenants; And those who strictly guard their (five compulsory congregational) Salawat (prayers) (at their fixed stated hours). These are indeed the inheritors. Who shall inherit the Firdaus (Paradise). They shall dwell therein forever} [Qur'aan, 23:1-11]

An individual might not be able to unite the whole of the Ummah, but he can contribute to the society in which he lives by learning and teaching, spreading the message of Islaam - and if everyone were to be like this, perhaps unity would be achieved without the need to call for it!

Regarding age, young people are not usually in a position to be making decisions about the leadership of the Ummah, especially when they still have many things to learn; many things which are only acquired through experience. Insha'Allaah, this Q&A will help to demonstrate that speaking about this subject without knowledge is fruitless. Do we really know what a khaleefah is in the first place and how to go about appointing one? And are we really in a position to be appraising the suitability of scholars? There are some things that concern the lay public, and there are others which none but scholars are qualified to deal with.



Greetings nimrod,

Almost No one seems to be disputing his misinformation.

I thought I should mention that I have not read the entire thread and neither have perhaps many others, so perhaps it is best to wait a while or at least take into consideration the viewpoint of others. Thank you.

 

[Ghazi]

This is one of the worst kinds of misguidance, and believing this leads to abandoning Jumu’ah prayers, prayer in jamaa’ah, Hajj, jihaad, collecting zakaah, prayer for rain (istisqaa’), Eid prayers, appointing imaams for mosques, calling the adhaan and other things, which amounts to cancelling the rulings of Islam.

Ok then if this is the case why have people neglected jihad don't they se the excuse we need a islamic state, and what are we supposed to do sit back and watch and yet say we love our brothers and sisters who are being oppressed things like this confuse me?

 

[Muhammad]

Is jihad invalid if there is no khaleefah?

 

[nimrod]

Rou, thank you for pointing out that Saddam had many years to come into compliance with the U.N. mandates.

Would you have bet your life on the fact Saddam had no WMDs at the time GWB decided to deal head-on with Saddam’s refusals to comply with the U.N. mandates?

Would you bet your loved ones lives on Saddam having not hid or shipped out some of his WMDs?

Do you believe those coalition members fighting in Afghanistan are not/have not taken many measures to limit the innocents there?

Your loyalties are clearly more toward your own interpretations of events, rather to any reasonable reasoning’s.

Your loyalties seem to be clearly with the defense of a Muslim, regardless of what he plainly did.


Have you not seem Bin Laden himself state that he was behind the USA embassy bombings?

Is your retort going to be that, that doesn’t mean he had anything to do with 9-11?

Does his past actions and stated intents not make you have a fairly firm belief that he was also involved in what happened on 9-11????????

Good grief.

Thanks
Nimrod

 

[nimrod]

Rou, I can't help but feel this discussion is leading the thread off-topic.

You have your opinion, I have mine.

I will leave it at that.

Thanks
Nimrod

 

[Rou]

One probably has to believe in the guilt of Osama Bin Laden before the invasion would make sense. I understand your viewpoint but I still don't agree. But hey, that's okay too.

Thats not true in any case how can displacing thousands of people and killing thousands more make sense for the hunt of one man?

but indeed your opinion is yours that is not a problem...

 

[ishkabab]

This is the problem by justfying innocent deaths leads to anger...

and repriseles....

think if we all sought justice then we would ask for those groups to be stopped not countries attacked!??

for 3000 people who died on 9/11 how many children have been killed??

for 50 people in london dying how many thousands of lives have been displaced and destroyed?!??

thats not justice....

iraq was an excuse to gain power but afgan was not!?

its clear that bush and his gov are there to gain power at the cost of innocents deaths why would it be that they attacked afgan for any other reason but to gain foot holds and gain power?

bin laden was not from afganistan and the people of afgan did not back him...yet there world was turned upside down...

by doing what bush did and knowingly at that he has created what the american people were told to fear...terrorists... he needed displaced children he needed surviovors of massacres so that they rise from ashes hating america and wanting revenge...afgan was to breed terrorists that did not ever before exist on such a level as they do today...

To be a hero you need a enemy...and bush created his...

indeed there were issues before 9/11 but the following of such groups was minute compared to today...

if there is anyone to blame for deaths due to terrorisem it is those goverments that back tyrants that harm innocents just so they can gain foot holds and power...and then ignore the pleas of innocents when they are harmed no i am not only reffering to palastine.. the rules of the UN and the running of the world has never been fair economics and inbalance that is created to keep power is what is unfair...

we all as good people should take these people out of power and find good leaders....

but until this is done there will be angry people and there will be wars...

justice is what is needed...when innocents are hurt we should speak up and there pleas not be ignored...

justice...

MashAllah....good words spoken indeed!

 

[Rou]

Rou, thank you for pointing out that Saddam had many years to come into compliance with the U.N. mandates.

Would you have bet your life on the fact Saddam had no WMDs at the time GWB decided to deal head-on with Saddam’s refusals to comply with the U.N. mandates?

Would you bet your loved ones lives on Saddam having not hid or shipped out some of his WMDs?

Do you believe those coalition members fighting in Afghanistan are not/have not taken many measures to limit the innocents there?

Your loyalties are clearly more toward your own interpretations of events, rather to any reasonable reasoning’s.

Your loyalties seem to be clearly with the defense of a Muslim, regardless of what he plainly did.


Have you not seem Bin Laden himself state that he was behind the USA embassy bombings?

Is your retort going to be that, that doesn’t mean he had anything to do with 9-11?

Does his past actions and stated intents not make you have a fairly firm belief that he was also involved in what happened on 9-11????????

Good grief.

Thanks
Nimrod

perhaps you should calm down...

as i clearly stated i have no problem with OBL being punished if he commited this crime...what i was looking at was the proof that has been provided seems very vauge and also the events that have followed 9/11 seem very much in favour of enlarging bushes pockets rather than bringing justice...

those fighting in afganistan have not taken measures to protect innocents or the fighting taliban that surredered...

many have been slaughterd after giving up arms...

the crimes being commited in afgan are more so than iraq i would say diffrence is less are being repeorted and there is less security for the people there...

while our eye is fixed on iraq afganis suffer...

im not here to clear OBL or condemn bush? im here to make sure my peoples suffering is not gone unheard for there is suffering and something must be done by american civilians as well as muslims and the world...

why should innocents suffer in silence...

wether the evil doer be muslim or otherwise i would seek justice upon him..

he should pay for commiting crimes against the innocent...

wether it be OBL or Bush...

where as OBL cant be found bush lives in lavish houses while the people he has commited crimes against cry every night and suffer over and over...

where is the justice there?

 

[Rou]

Rou, I can't help but feel this discussion is leading the thread off-topic.

You have your opinion, I have mine.

I will leave it at that.

Thanks
Nimrod

Fair enough...

Allah is the best of judges we will see when our time comes...

Peace be with you...

 

[snakelegs]

Snake Legs, judging from the posts on this thread, I would say most folks are more loyal to their fellow Muslim than they are to any particular country.

hi nimrod,
after i set up the poll, i realized that i should have asked "what if the non-muslim country you live in were attacked by a muslim country?"

i was/am opposed to the attack and invasion of afghanistan and i was/am opposed to the attack and invasion of iraq. i don't accept the reasons given as justifiable or for that matter, necessarily true.
i don't find it either moral or rational to drop thousands of bombs on a country under the pretext for looking for a group of bad guys. quite a while after our invasion of afghanistan bush himself even said that he didn't think OBL was all that important!

i do not think that either afghanistan or iraq were a threat to the US.

i also strongly object to bush's "either you're with us or you're with the terrorists" slogan.

i am also angry that these invasions have caused a much more real threat of terrorist attacks we are more at risk now than we were then, and it just gets worse every single day.

as for the british soldier, i think it was wrong for people to be passing judgment on the man and in general, people should leave that kind of stuff up to god and stop trying to do god's job for him.

 

[SASB]

the country i live in cause i don't know what u mean by the Ummah.........

 

[Rou]

hi nimrod,
after i set up the poll, i realized that i should have asked "what if the non-muslim country you live in were attacked by a muslim country?"

i was/am opposed to the attack and invasion of afghanistan and i was/am opposed to the attack and invasion of iraq. i don't accept the reasons given as justifiable or for that matter, necessarily true.
i don't find it either moral or rational to drop thousands of bombs on a country under the pretext for looking for a group of bad guys. quite a while after our invasion of afghanistan bush himself even said that he didn't think OBL was all that important!

i do not think that either afghanistan or iraq were a threat to the US.

i also strongly object to bush's "either you're with us or you're with the terrorists" slogan.

i am also angry that these invasions have caused a much more real threat of terrorist attacks we are more at risk now than we were then, and it just gets worse every single day.

as for the british soldier, i think it was wrong for people to be passing judgment on the man and in general, people should leave that kind of stuff up to god and stop trying to do god's job for him.

sorry which british soilder does everyone keep reffering to?

whats this all about?

is this the british muslim soilder who died?

 

[snakelegs]

rou,
it's " 'Muslim' Soldier dies in Afghanistan..."
http://www.islamicboard.com/world-affairs/24321-muslim-soldier-dies-afghanistan-2.html

 

[Rou]

rou,
it's " 'Muslim' Soldier dies in Afghanistan..."
http://www.islamicboard.com/world-affairs/24321-muslim-soldier-dies-afghanistan-2.html

ahh indeed i thought so..thanx for that i have already commented on his circumstances...

 

[nimrod]

Snake Legs, I will keep my opinions to myself, as any thing I might wish to post would likely further side-track your thread.

Thanks
Nimrod

 

[KAding]

Ironically this desire to establish a Caliphate is weaking the Muslim world and not strengthening it. Mainly because of this military approach to the establishment of the Caliphate results in so much in-fighting among Muslims. There are a million Muslims saying 'I want to fight for Allah' or even 'I'll be the new Caliph' and then go fight other Muslims. This approach will not work and betrays a lack of patience.

I think you should first and foremost attempt to make the individual Muslim nations strong and prosperous. Then you can strive for a Caliphate based on 'an ever closer union' of Muslim states. "Unity in diversity" should be your motto, not "Unity and I'll kill anyone trying to be different" .

First you need wealthy and educated (both secular and religious) populations. Otherwise you will never know stability. since poor countries hardly ever know stability. When there is wealth there will be strong institutions, institutions that will be legitimate and can eventually form part of a federal Caliphate. I think you guys should build your caliphate based on a EU model, ie. one of slow steps towards peaceful integration and where 'diversity' is celebrated and not repressed in the name of 'unity'.

But hey, what do I know, I'm just a kaffir .

 

[KAding]

So let me reiterate:

1. All Muslims must strive to bring stability to the Muslim nations

• No starting jihads in Muslim countries
• No violent resistance against 'un-Islamic' leaders
• No tirades against nationalism and diversity
• Accept the rule of law and the states monopoly on violence

2. Stability and lack of conflict will lead to higher economic growth
3. This will lead to more money for education and prosperity
4. A middle-class will rise that can wield considerable political influence
5. This middle-class will demand political reforms, a push towards more democracy (shura if you will)
6. Strong and stable political and economic institutions will rise
7. Since this concept of 'Ummah' is central in Islamic ideology Muslim countries will be inclined to cooperate
8. A supra-national organisation can be set up that brings together all the Muslim nations, firstly only on some policy areas
9. A slow process of an 'ever closer union' is started whereby sovereignty is transferred to the supra-national organisation
10. A federal structure is slowly developed and the supra-national organization becomes responsible for foreign policy and defence
11. Elect a president and call him a caliph

Voila, you have your Caliphate! Act local, think global! First get the countries in order, then work on uniting them! Besides, creating stong and stable independent nations will also discourage foreign intervention.

Easy peasy . Good luck! I'm guessing it'll take a century or so, depending on the Muslims entrepreneurial skills. Getting through point 2 and 3 will be the biggest challenge. Then uniting these stable countries will come easier because of the pan-Islamic nationalism that is engrained in Islamic theory.

 

[Sis786]

This is difficult my loyalty is with both country and Ummah and i hope that i dont have to choose!