Jesus; the Man or the Myth?

[Les_Nubian]

Eric and phill

Some things we don't know, and thus have to take on faith, regardless of what religion we have. But this is not one of those things. This is a so-called research in history, but if you read my reply you'd see that it's all a big hype based on lies and twisting of words. Had the topicnever been started, but the person try to close her mind to it, it would have sticked around in the background, and from the second there's rough times, and faith becomes hard, shaytan would be there helping you to remember. Now by posting it, we've been able to discuss it, and I've been able to answer some of the arguments. Perhaps even convinced her this is all lies. SO you see it was a very good thing that she posted it. When you have a question, you ask it. there's no shame in asking questions. In fact it's a virtue and sign of strong faith to look for answers in order to strenghthen the faith.

Exactly Steve, you are very right.

That's why these type of discussions when in doubt are very important. You can't just let it sit in the back of your mind, and have doubts about it all the time...you have to get it out there, and get other people's points of view.

Thanks again, brother (Steve). :sister:

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Please name those messengers that were sent to:

Tasmania
Argentina
Japan
Papua New Guinea
The South island of New Zealand

and we can go from there.

Greetings,
There were at least 124 000 Prophets of whom 315 were Messengers, as related in the Musnad of Imâm Ahmad. The Qur'an tells us that every nation recieved a warner (i.e. a Prophet), it does not list all 124 000 names, only the 25 listed earlier in this thread.

Regards

 

[Joe98]

The Qur'an tells us that every nation recieved a warner (i.e. a Prophet),

That can't be true because no prophet got to any of the places I listed.

 

[Woodrow]

That can't be true because no prophet got to any of the places I listed.

Let us take a look at the places you just mentioned.

Tasmania
Argentina
Japan
Papua New Guinea
The South island of New Zealand

Four of them have only been inhabited, in recent times, in terms of the existence of civilization. They were probably founded by wayfarars from established civilizations.

Tasmania
Argentina
Papua New Guinea
The South island of New Zealand

We state that prophets have been sent to all people and all nations. However, that dosen't necessary mean the people are still living in the same locality their ancestors were living at the time a prophet was sent to them. All evidence indicates that the indigneous people of those 4 countries came from prior locations.

I set Japan aside , as Japan has probably been inhabited much longer and may even date back prior to Egypt. It seems possible that a prophet was sent to them. we do know that the teachings of Shintoism and Buddhism do carry at least a part of what is revealed through the prophets, so it does seem that at one time a prophet did speak to the Japanese.



Now getting back to a question that several members here raised. That is about the value of this thread. True the title does go against both Muslim and Christian beliefs. Yet, I can not think of any title that would be more accurate. Reading through the replies, I see that the topic has brought forth some very legitimate replies. The subject may be controversial, but the replies show a good deal of uniformity and agreement that Jesus(as) did historicaly exist.

 

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Sure people believe in God without physical "proof", because God is not a physical being. But this is a MAN we're talking about here. A supposed living, breathing, walking the earth, MAN. I'm just saying, that great historical figures like this usually have some sort of records, like at least people writing about the person, and their life story, etcetera...but I'm guessing the article argues that the bible only states what Jesus supposedly did and said in past-tense, and that there is no real "proof" or "evidence" of him existing.

Again, I'm realy not on either side, I just wanted to see your opinions on the matter. I truly didn't mean to offend anyone...I didn't think anyone here would be so sensitive to the matter, but I guess that's why God just made us all so different. The world would be boring otherwise.

Well sis I already told you that belief in the prophets is one of the 6 pillars of faith. You have to believe in all the prophets as a Muslim. Part of being a believer is having yaqeen, certainty in Islam.

:wasalamex

 

[Joe98]

All evidence indicates that the indigneous people of those 4 countries came from prior locations.

Yes, 10,000 - 20,000 - 50,000 years ago.

Tell us again when the messages were sent?

 

[Abdul Fattah]

That can't be true because no prophet got to any of the places I listed.

Do you mean because those places were unreachable? Well what if a prophet was born in such a region then

Yes, 10,000 - 20,000 - 50,000 years ago.

Tell us again when the messages were sent?

Does it matter?

 

[Joe98]

Does it matter?

Yes. According to a post above the Koran said that every land received a prophet.

1. Thats not possible

2. If each group of people around the world received a prophet how come there are no stories from anywhere on the earth except the Middle East?

 

[Abdul Fattah]

1. Thats not possible

Why is that impossible?

2. If each group of people around the world received a prophet how come there are no stories from anywhere on the earth except the Middle East?

Difrent reasons:
1. Not all nations have writen history, so not all stories were writen down.
2. Not all prophets were recognised, most didn't have large numbers of folowers.
3. Some might have survived history, but aren't recognised as islamic prophets today. there are some historical people of whom it has been suggested that they were in fact prophets, but it's very hard to establish that. And since Islam is already considered to be complete as guidance, there's no good reason to accept them as prophet, we leave the possibility open, but we don't change our ways based on it.
4. All nations recieved a message through a warner, but not all warners were prophets. Right now, we are explaining some parts of our faith to you, so we could be considered warners conveying you the message, but that doesn't make us prophets, far from it

 

[Woodrow]

Yes, 10,000 - 20,000 - 50,000 years ago.

Tell us again when the messages were sent?

The time is irrelevent. One billion years is insignificant in terms of eternity.

Good point. A refutation I often get from people when I talk about the Qur'an is that the ideas were stolen from the ancient books of the Babylonians, Assyrians, etc.

My counter arguement is that is because they all had contact with a prophet at some point in their history. Even when speaking of the Native American religions and the worship of Manitou or the religions of the aborigianal Australians. You will find stories similar to some of the writtings in the Qur'an. Which makes since as they had they same source, even if much of the words were lost.

In every ancient religion I have ever studies there is a strong resmbalance in at least some of their stories, that indicate some contact with somebody who had contact with a prophet in the past.

 

[Joe98]

Even when speaking of the Native American religions....or the religions of the aborigianal Australians.

You will find stories similar to some of the writtings in the Qur'an.

There are no such stories. But I am glad you agree with my original point. Which was the message given to the prophet muhammad (pbuh) was not given to any other person.

Therefore God is flawed because it has taken 1,400 ywears for the emssage to reach remote places. And many places it has not yeat reached.

Maybe there is no god?

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

That can't be true because no prophet got to any of the places I listed.

How do you know? They have their religious traditions which may be the remnants of the message of a Prophet centuries earlier.

 

[Woodrow]

There are no such stories. But I am glad you agree with my original point. Which was the message given to the prophet muhammad (pbuh) was not given to any other person.

Therefore God is flawed because it has taken 1,400 ywears for the emssage to reach remote places. And many places it has not yeat reached.

Maybe there is no god?

Therefore God is flawed because it has taken 1,400 ywears for the emssage to reach remote places.

The message was revealed countless times before Muhammad(saw). It was rejected and misunderstood by us stubborn humans, no matter how many times it was sent. Muhammad(saw) is the fianal attempt by Allah(swt) to get the message through our thick heads.

I believe, you will agree that many people are not accepting it.

 

[Abdul-Raouf]

Man

 

[Joe98]

My original comment was that (according to you) god gave a message to the prophet 1,400 years ago.

To which I say he didn’t give the same message to anybody else at that time. You say he gave messages to various people over the last few thousands of years thereby agreeing with my comment.

The problem is that 1,400 years ago communication as poor. Everywhere was remote from everywhere else. Even London was remote at that time.

…is the final attempt by Allah(swt) to get the message through our thick heads.

So, 1,400 years god should have given his message to a hand full of people around the world. And then today we could marvel that the messages are all the same! And believe!

But he did not. We are all thick yet he gave it to one person only.

And as it’s his final attempt, bad luck for humanity.

This is the god you worship?????

 

[Woodrow]

My original comment was that (according to you) god gave a message to the prophet 1,400 years ago.

To which I say he didn’t give the same message to anybody else at that time. You say he gave messages to various people over the last few thousands of years thereby agreeing with my comment.

The problem is that 1,400 years ago communication as poor. Everywhere was remote from everywhere else. Even London was remote at that time.



So, 1,400 years god should have given his message to a hand full of people around the world. And then today we could marvel that the messages are all the same! And believe!

But he did not. We are all thick yet he gave it to one person only.

And as it’s his final attempt, bad luck for humanity.

This is the god you worship?????

So, 1,400 years god should have given his message to a hand full of people around the world. And then today we could marvel that the messages are all the same! And believe!

And in 17716 a small group of people set down the rules for an ideal democracy. We should all marvel at the wisdom of those words and see that they are applicable to all men. But, we don't. In less then 300 years we have altered and changed even what we wanted for our own country. So, your statement seems very true. We humans have the knack to alter things until we render them meaningless.

But he did not. We are all thick yet he gave it to one person only.

I guess if you consider the entire known world to be a hand full of people you are correct. Keep in mind, even with yourself as an acknowledged non-believer, you are aware the Qur'an exists and you know you have the ability to read it any time you choose.

And as it’s his final attempt, bad luck for humanity.

What could he possible owe us, that we would be entitled to even one attempt? Isn't it about time that we finaly got the message that this is it. Take it or leave it? Not bad luck for humanity, just bad choices. If you catch a man robbing you, how many times will you try to tell him stealing is wrong, before you stop telling him and call the police?

This is the god you worship?????[/QUOTE]

Yes, and I am pleased with the knowledge.

 

[Mohsin]

2. If each group of people around the world received a prophet how come there are no stories from anywhere on the earth except the Middle East?

There are the hindu scriptures, Zorastian scriptures, and the Buddhist scriptures. All of these books contain evidence that these books were one time several thousands of years ago original wordsa of God, and Budda Zorastian etc were prophets. They even prophecise bthe coming of prophet Muhammed in these scriptures. So it is more than likely God sent prophets to these places thousands of years ago, just tehres no human proof for it

 

[Abdul Fattah]

My original comment was that (according to you) god gave a message to the prophet 1,400 years ago.

To which I say he didn’t give the same message to anybody else at that time. You say he gave messages to various people over the last few thousands of years thereby agreeing with my comment.

The problem is that 1,400 years ago communication as poor. Everywhere was remote from everywhere else. Even London was remote at that time.

Yes it was. So? that still doesn't make messagers impossible does it.

So, 1,400 years god should have given his message to a hand full of people around the world. And then today we could marvel that the messages are all the same! And believe!
But he did not. We are all thick yet he gave it to one person only.
And as it’s his final attempt, bad luck for humanity.
This is the god you worship?????

I already answered that one
The messages was conveyed in such a way that it isn't obvious. In the end life is a test and the point is for you to believe in this message. If it were passed on in a way that it was obvious to the whole of mankind then that would defeat the purpose of this test-life all toghether.

 

[lolwatever]

yeh mashalah i agree... and it's globalisation in its innocent and pure sense... not the sort we see today where 3rd world countries are used as rubbish bins of the developed countries.

 

[iraqi]

there is enough evidence for the existance of jesus