Do Muslims Want the whole world to be Muslim?

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:sl:

why would you want to keep religion and the legal system seperate? When the legal system is based on religion that means it will be based on Gods laws, making it the perfect system... would you rather have some man-made set of laws or the law that God himself gave us?

Man made laws are faulty, Gods law is perfect and full of wisdom and justice.

Religions don't agree upon Gods laws. I think that there's one God and many ways to him. I want all those who worship differently to be afforded the same rights.

my dad has to pay half his pay check as tax!! and we live is a country that follows democracy... based on shariah he only has to pay 2.5%!! 50% tax or 2.5%? i know which one i prefer....
I'm referring to non-muslims being taxed in excess of muslims. Big difference.
:) :) :)
 
well i'll guarentee you something, that's false, atleast as far as Islamic law is concerned.

Hey, Islamic law maybe perfect. I'm not denying that! Humans who enforce laws are less than perfect. It's a trait of being human.


One thing though.. you might consider our history bias, but atleast our history is thoroughly documented and authenticated via very strict methods.. if that wasn't the case, there's many stories which make the Muslims seem to be angels, but they where rejected by Muslim scholars on grounds of inauthenticity...

As long as it is only agreed upon by muslims, I consider it biased. It may in fact be 100% true but logic tells me that it can't be.

Christian historians... i wonder if they have any way to verify the ifnormation they disseminate and attribtue to Islam and Muslims..

I would imagine it to be as accurate as Muslim accounts of the Islamic and Christian crusades. It's strange how the two accounts differ.
thanks
 
Religions don't agree upon Gods laws. I think that there's one God and many ways to him. I want all those who worship differently to be afforded the same rights.

There's one thing about Islam though, it's open for debates... I think if anyone takes a serious look at Islam and what it has to offer, and it's stance towards other religions, and just takes a look at the miracles the Quran and the prophet comes with... and looks at the fruits of its application in practice.. it's not hard to see which religion stands out from amongst all.

There's only one way to god, during the time of Jesus, it was the Islam that Jesus came with (today labelled as Christianity), and durign the time of Moses, it was the Islam that he came with (today labelled as judaism), and when Muhammad came, his way is the way to god till the end of time.

As far as taxation is concerned, i'm very sure that in Umars time Muslims had to pay more tax than did non Muslims, i was hearing a tape which was saying that really.. people who converted to Islam where financially worse off because they'd have to pay more taxes than someone paying the 'dhimmi tax'.

corrupt rulers may have charged exess tax (i'd like to see the proof tho), but the question is.. where they ruling by Shariah or their whims?

And i can definately bet that the "excess" tax was no where near the 50% tax that people have to cough up today.
 
There's one thing about Islam though, it's open for debates... I think if anyone takes a serious look at Islam and what it has to offer, and it's stance towards other religions, and just takes a look at the miracles the Quran and the prophet comes with... and looks at the fruits of its application in practice.. it's not hard to see which religion stands out from amongst all.

There's only one way to god, during the time of Jesus, it was the Islam that Jesus came with (today labelled as Christianity), and durign the time of Moses, it was the Islam that he came with (today labelled as judaism), and when Muhammad came, his way is the way to god till the end of time.

As far as taxation is concerned, i'm very sure that in Umars time Muslims had to pay more tax than did non Muslims, i was hearing a tape which was saying that really.. people who converted to Islam where financially worse off because they'd have to pay more taxes than someone paying the 'dhimmi tax'.

corrupt rulers may have charged exess tax (i'd like to see the proof tho), but the question is.. where they ruling by Shariah or their whims?

And i can definately bet that the "excess" tax was no where near the 50% tax that people have to cough up today.
A dhimmi (also zimmi, Arabic: ذمي‎, plural: اهل الذمۃ, ahl al-dhimma) was a "free" (i.e. non-slave), non-Muslim subject of a state governed in accordance with sharia — Islamic law. A dhimmi is a person of the dhimma, a term which refers in Islamic law to a pact contracted between non-Muslims and authorities from their Muslim government. This status was originally only made available to non-Muslims who were People of the Book (i.e. Jews and Christians), but was later extended to include Zoroastrians, Mandeans, and, in some areas, Hindus.[1] The status of dhimmi applied to millions of people living from the Atlantic Ocean to India from the 7th century until modern times.[2] Over time, many dhimmis converted to Islam. Most conversions were voluntary and happened for a number of different reasons but forced conversion played a role in some later periods of Islamic history, mostly in the 12th century under the Almohad dynasty of North Africa and al-Andalus as well as in Persia where Shi'a Islam is dominant.[3]

Dhimmis were allowed to "practice their religion, subject to certain conditions, and to enjoy a measure of communal autonomy" and guaranteed their personal safety and security of property, in return for paying tribute to Muslims and accepting Muslim supremacy.[4] Taxation from the perspective of Dhimmis who came under the Muslim rule, Cahen states, was "a concrete continuation of the taxes paid to earlier regimes" and from the point of view of the Muslim conqueror was a material proof of Dhimmi's subjection. [5] Various restrictions and legal disabilities placed on Dhimmis, such as prohibitions against bearing arms or giving testimony in courts in cases involving Muslims.[6] Most of these disabilities had a social and symbolic rather than a tangible and practical character. [7] Disarmed and unable to defend themselves in courts, dhimmis were vulnerable to the whims of rulers and the violence of mobs,[8] although persecution in the form of violent and active repression was rare and atypical.[9] While recognizing the inferior status of dhimmis under Islamic rule, Bernard Lewis holds that in most respects their position was "was very much easier than that of non-Christians or even of heretical Christians in medieval Europe."[10]

Also note the other restrictions placed on non-muslims. You may ague the validity of Wikipedia. If so, can you show me another definition of the dhimmi that you feel is unbiased?
 
Hey, Islamic law maybe perfect. I'm not denying that! Humans who enforce laws are less than perfect. It's a trait of being human.

That's cool, hence why many of our scholars put their lives at risk to make sure the rulers would be as close as possible to perfect.. Imam malik got tortured for speaking out against the opression of the ruler of his time.. (but at the end, he won out and a just ruler was appointed), Imam Ahmad went through alot also with his ruler.. Shafi'3ee had soem serious advises for his ruler as well.. and Abu Hanifah was well known for keeping his ruler on guard.

Really if you look at it objectively, if you look at the criterion for a ruler, there's no doubt that Islamic Law will be applied perfectly... just look at history, when the criterion's wheren't met.. you had all sorts of mess created, when they wehre fulfilled, the empire sparkled. (Abu Bakr, Umar are the classic examples).

As long as it is only agreed upon by muslims, I consider it biased. It may in fact be 100% true but logic tells me that it can't be.

lol some non-Muslim historians do seem to agree actually.. there's a documentary called 'Planet Islam', sensational stuff.. non Muslim historians giving their persepctive as well as Muslims.

secondly... i think if non Muslims where objective, they should hav a bit of a read into Muslims methods of authentication and then make up their mind. Judging by intuition is definately not an objective way to go about things.

I would imagine it to be as accurate as Muslim accounts of the Islamic and Christian crusades. It's strange how the two accounts differ.

It's easy, let the Muslim bring their sources and stories, and let them bring theirs and get each to give an accoutn of the chains of narration and describe hwo they authenticated their stories...

salamz :)
 
Really if you look at it objectively, if you look at the criterion for a ruler, there's no doubt that Islamic Law will be applied perfectly

Is it today in Muslim countries?

Judging by intuition is definately not an objective way to go about things.

I'm judging by logic, which is different than intuition. I give credit to all sources, and question all sources.

I see your method of believing that muslim history is infalliable being lead by blind faith. No disrespect intended.
 
A dhimmi (also zimmi, Arabic: ذمي‎, plural: اهل الذمۃ, ahl al-dhimma) was a "free" (i.e. non-slave), non-Muslim subject of a state governed in accordance with sharia — Islamic law. A dhimmi is a person of the dhimma, a term which refers in Islamic law to a pact contracted between non-Muslims and authorities from their Muslim government. This status was originally only made available to non-Muslims who were People of the Book (i.e. Jews and Christians), but was later extended to include Zoroastrians, Mandeans, and, in some areas, Hindus.[1] The status of dhimmi applied to millions of people living from the Atlantic Ocean to India from the 7th century until modern times.[2] Over time, many dhimmis converted to Islam. Most conversions were voluntary and happened for a number of different reasons but forced conversion played a role in some later periods of Islamic history, mostly in the 12th century under the Almohad dynasty of North Africa and al-Andalus as well as in Persia where Shi'a Islam is dominant.[3]

Dhimmis were allowed to "practice their religion, subject to certain conditions, and to enjoy a measure of communal autonomy" and guaranteed their personal safety and security of property, in return for paying tribute to Muslims and accepting Muslim supremacy.[4] Taxation from the perspective of Dhimmis who came under the Muslim rule, Cahen states, was "a concrete continuation of the taxes paid to earlier regimes" and from the point of view of the Muslim conqueror was a material proof of Dhimmi's subjection. [5] Various restrictions and legal disabilities placed on Dhimmis, such as prohibitions against bearing arms or giving testimony in courts in cases involving Muslims.[6] Most of these disabilities had a social and symbolic rather than a tangible and practical character. [7] Disarmed and unable to defend themselves in courts, dhimmis were vulnerable to the whims of rulers and the violence of mobs,[8] although persecution in the form of violent and active repression was rare and atypical.[9] While recognizing the inferior status of dhimmis under Islamic rule, Bernard Lewis holds that in most respects their position was "was very much easier than that of non-Christians or even of heretical Christians in medieval Europe."[10]

Also note the other restrictions placed on non-muslims. You may ague the validity of Wikipedia. If so, can you show me another definition of the dhimmi that you feel is unbiased?

Actually that report seems to be not THAT bad. Atleast they admit that forced conversions kicked in towards teh 12th century in the later periods of Islamic history, which is exactly what i tried to make a point of.

I don't know about the Islamic ruling as far as dhimmi's carryign arms, but i think it makes sense they wouldn't be.. becaue it's the responsibility of the Muslim's to provide the security services to them. Hence why the dhimmi's where refunded when the Muslim's had a feeling they might lose the city or it may be in danger from teh side of the Romans..

I don't try to hide that there was ALOT of corruption towards the end, and it naturally lead to the demise of Muslims all over the place, that's why i'm trying to argue that it's not to be used as a point of reference..

And thank god that there where perfect examples, so it's not like i'm talkign airy fairy theory...

oh actually look at this, perfect hadith that describes it
"There will be a khilafah on the path of prophecy, and following it will be a dynasty which clutches onto power strongly, following it will be a period of tyranny and treachery, and following it will be another Khilafah on the path of prophecy"

That hadith makes it clear that we shouldnt' be using the middle 2 periods as examples of Shareeah.

otherwise I would be on your side, because Saudi claism to apply Shareeah... and i definately wouldn't want them ruling over the world :offended: :offended: :offended: every human would visit a torture chamber atleast twice in their lives on average lol by the end fo their lives.
 
Is it today in Muslim countries?

i answered that in the above post, final paragraph.

I'm judging by logic, which is different than intuition. I give credit to all sources, and question all sources.

I see your method of believing that muslim history is infalliable being lead by blind faith. No disrespect intended.

I made it clear that our way of differentiating between right adn false is a very scientific and objective method.. if you checkout cheese's blog and lookup the section on 'science of hadith' (scienc eof narrations) that will becoem objective...

oh and btw.. incase you want a practical example of Muslim scholars being very critical of stories and accounts... checkout Ibn Kathir's "The Beginning and End".. one of the first history encyclopedia's to be written...

salamz
 
oh ps: Michael Heart seems to be in awe of Umar's rule.. so yeh.. read up on his rule and tell us what you think of Shareeah in practice :)
 
if the whole world was ruled under the islamic ruling then there is no chance for crime to prevail and if every muslim is a genuine and sincere believer then without a doubt this world would be in perfect peace and harmony so i would definitly say



YES !!!!!


Just because one is a Muslim, it does not mean that he is a saint!
 
Just because one is a Muslim, it does not mean that he is a saint!

yeh defiantely i don't think anyone would say that..

I think the best example is teh society of the companions, some of them fornicated, some of them drunk alchohol, occasionally they even had heated disputes that resulted in squabbles... it was a perfect society with all the faults of human beings embedded in it.. a human society.
 
i answered that in the above post, final paragraph.



I made it clear that our way of differentiating between right adn false is a very scientific and objective method.. if you checkout cheese's blog and lookup the section on 'science of hadith' (scienc eof narrations) that will becoem objective...

oh and btw.. incase you want a practical example of Muslim scholars being very critical of stories and accounts... checkout Ibn Kathir's "The Beginning and End".. one of the first history encyclopedia's to be written...

salamz
Thank you for the reference. I will check it out.
 
oh ps: Michael Heart seems to be in awe of Umar's rule.. so yeh.. read up on his rule and tell us what you think of Shareeah in practice :)

I will read up on Michael Heart and Umar.

I'm not saying that all Islamic rulers were unjust. The fact that some were makes me support a non-Islamic world (by rule).
 
^^ yeh fair enough, but i think once you readup on Umar's rule.. and when you realise that so far all the prophets predictions and prophecies have been realized to date... you won't be as worried about Islam ruling hte world the way it was applied under Umar, Abu Bakr's rule :)

take care all the best
 
Here is what the Qur'an say since your asking from an Islamic perspective

but that still does not mean not to spread the word of God and guide non Muslims to that path... if they have accepted Islam with an honest heart then that's great, if not.. then that is fine as well.
I agree!
 
I dont know if i misunderstood u but this ayah dosent not mean that each man should follow his own religion.
basically its talks abvout how the Quraish wanted to make a deal with Muhammad asking himn to follow their religon for one year and they would follow islam for one year. Thus Allah revealed to him that even if they follow islam for one year and something else another year they would never really foloow islam. There is no bridge between belief and dis belief or no compromise between religions and Allah instructed in this Surah to say this to the Quraish.

:sl: brother

i know. but i just think that the ayat sums it up nicely that we do not force people to follow or have faith. Each is entitled to follow their own and its only with the guidance of Allah that they will come to embrace Islam anyway.

jazakAllah kheir for your post :)

:w:

Rabi'ya:rose:
 
Before i start having desires such as "i wish everyone in this world became a muslim.." what i REALLY want is for every single person in this world to BE (or atleast PRETEND) to be CIVIL.

Once that is achieved, i will pray to ALlah that he makes everyone a Muslim.

The last thing i want is More Lunatics entering islam and Hijacking it like SOME Muslims have done.

Subhan'allah.
 
Having the world under Muslim rule would be wonderful.
Which will, of course, happen one day:)
 
why would you want to keep religion and the legal system seperate? When the legal system is based on religion that means it will be based on Gods laws, making it the perfect system... would you rather have some man-made set of laws or the law that God himself gave us?

Man made laws are faulty, Gods law is perfect and full of wisdom and justice.

There are so many hidden assumptions and prejudices in that I hardly know where to start. You assume that Islamic law is God's law, which may even be true, but you will have some work trying to convince any non-Muslims of that. You assume that God's law is perfect. See above. You ignore the fact that God's law has to be applied by very human Humans. So what you get is not God's justice, but human justice carried out by people who think they are carrying out God's law.

All in all I would prefer a legal system based on reason - if Islamic law is better, you can make a case, we can study it, and if we like bits we can adopt them. If not we won't. Better than having a military coup and some dictator who insists that he knows what God wants.

my dad has to pay half his pay check as tax!! and we live is a country that follows democracy... based on shariah he only has to pay 2.5%!! 50% tax or 2.5%? i know which one i prefer....

He would have to pay 2.5 percent of the value of his possessions wouldn't he? Whereas in the West he has to pay 50 percent of his income. So a widow in an Islamic system might own a house left to her by her late husband, but have no income. In the West she would pay nothing even if her house was worth a million dollars. But in an Islamic system wouldn't she have to pay 25,000 each and every year? While a young man with no house but a Big Job in the City could earn a million dollars and pay little because he does not yet own anything?

Of course you have to look at what people get for their 50 percent.
 
i too can understand why you and i won't want the world to be under christian rule... history speaks for itself..

But it wasn't anywhere near as bad when the lands where under Islamic rule, the jews had their golden age under Muslim rule and there was alot of technological adn scientific developments.. while medieval europe was reeling from its darkage...

Everything you say about Muslim rule is also true of Christian rule as well. You say that Jews had their Golden Age under the Muslims. They did in Algeria too under the French. There was a lot of scientific and technological devleopments in Europe in the 18th and 19th centuries - while the Muslims were in a Dark Age - and European colonialism brought those to Muslim lands. European colonialism in the 19th century was much more tolerate than Muslim rule was.

So therefore we should all support a return of French rule to Algeria, no?

but i know what you think "living under Muslim rule = forced becoming Muslim"... but that's not true.. you're living in USA right.. you're living under their rule.. you have to abide byt he laws, but it doesnt mean you have to become a zionist christian for example.. similar in Islamic state.. you live under their rule (no promiscuity, no porn TV, no alchohol trade.. but you are perfectly free to visit your church, do whatever you want in your christian ways)

As long as you are a Christian or a Jew or a Zoroastrian. Historically Muslims have been tough on atheists and Buddhists.
 
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