A small suggestion

[dougmusr]

what does "messiah" mean to you? Almasee7 3isa ibn maryam "Almasee7" in Arabic means Anointed... as in when you anoint someone with fragrant oil.... how does that deter from his being a prophet? Arabic/Aramaic/ Hebrew are all Semitic languages... and that is what the term means in those languages.... Aramaic being the language Jesus (PBUH) spoke.... I am not sure I understand what it is you are looking for... the meaning of the word?

If Messiah means anointed, I presume that Christ was an anointed prophet and other prophets were unanointed prophets. So how specifically does an anointed prophet differ from an unanointed prophet?

Al Masih means 'the promised one'

If Messiah means the promised one, and this term is reserved for Christ, exactly how did He differ from other prophets which were not promised ones?

 

[dougmusr]

[Pickthal 2:79] Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, "This is from Allah," that they may purchase a small gain therewith. Woe unto them for that their hands have written, and woe unto them for that they earn thereby.

I am under the impression that the Quran was ***embled from manuscripts written by hand and those who wrote it claim it is from Allah. Is the distinction then that it should not be sold for profit?

 

[جوري]

If Messiah means anointed, I presume that Christ was an anointed prophet and other prophets were unanointed prophets. So how specifically does an anointed prophet differ from an unanointed prophet?

What does anointed mean to you? What does it mean for you to be washed in perfume? how does it relate or not relate to prophethood? many prophets/messangers had unique qualities, which they were known for, Joseph as an example was known to interpret dreams... I am sure it is a gift bestowed upon many other prophets or messengers but when we think of dream interpretation we usually think of him, why should we attribute this quality to him when others shared in it? Why is John the Baptist "prophet "yahya" known as the "Baptist" even though others were known for their cleansing rituals as well? I am not sure what you are driving at with the question otherwise.....

 

[Phil12123]

Peace to you Phil:

I get a tad frustrated with your line of thinking, which seems to be common amongst many Christians.

You insinuate that as reverts or those that leave Christianity we do so because we don't have an understanding of the bible or have never studied it and tried to understand. I, for one, can ***ure you that I have definitely studied the bible and continue to study it to this day. Did it ever occur to you that perhaps it is because of our understanding we left Christianity? Did you ever think that maybe we are realizing something you are not? Did you ever wonder if you're following blindly instead of logically?

Whether the Gospel of Barnabus is the original Barnabus Gospel leaves much doubt, but either way it doesn't change the fact that there are problems with the biblical text as it is today. That Gospel, authentic or not, won't change that.

You said yourself you follow the bible, GENERALLY, with some of your own thoughts. How is this following the word of God? Why don't you follow the bible as it's written without additions? You see, this is exactly the problem Christian reverts, many of us anyway, have with biblical text. Too many thoughts have been added and the original messages are lost. Imagine the number of people that have done exactly that over the past 2000 years. Scribes/Copyists all adding thoughts in an attempt to either make things more clear or to intentionally alter meaning. All you have to do is look at the different bibles. I'm not referring to translations, I mean actual bibles. One bible with 66 books, one with 73, etc. Keeping in mind, that during various councils these books have changed with some that had once been accepted being rejected and vice versa. It's not only the contradictions or errors found in the text of today, it goes far deeper than that. It is not only important to look at the text, but you must also look at the history. Who wrote what? Who gave authority to whom? What is proven as authentic and what part has its authenticity questioned and why? Which is inspired and which is not? Christian and Biblical scholars know there are textual problems, serious problems, it is not just Muslims that question some of these things.

So, please don't think we revert or leave Christianity on a whim. For many of us it is extremely difficult to face the truth. It took me 3 years to accept it, but I believe with all my heart and soul, Islam is the truth and the Qur'an is the true word of God.

As far as the Injeel in its original form as it was revealed to Jesus, pbuh, you will never find it because if it had ever been committed in written form it has long since been destroyed or lost. But, there is no evidence that anything was written or preserved in His lifetime. It is only through unauthenticated oral reporting that words have been attributed to Jesus, pbuh, in the bible. Not to mention translations of translations of translations. We have plenty of reasons to question the validity of the bible as we see it today.

But, whether you choose to look for yourself or continue to follow without questioning is entirely up to you. Just because many respected Christian and Biblical scholars question these things, doesn't mean they lose their faith either. But, they want to find the truth and I'm sure their hopes are to bring the bible closer to the original words as possible. I truly believe if that were done, you would see very little difference between Christianity and Islam.

Ok, just throwing in my 2-cents for what it's worth. lol

Peace to you,
Hana

Greetings, Hana

Thank you for your thoughts. BTW, I notice that the word "a s s u r e" puts asterisks in for the first three letters ( a s s ), like when I tried to type the word "p a s s a g e" it came up "p***age". Must be some automatic censoring device to block certain words which might be swear words.

When I mentioned the Bible generally with some of my own thoughts, I was talking about what we go by or view as authority. My thoughts would never overrule whatever the Bible says, but in some cases there may be no scripture directly dealing with a subject. In such a case we would be permitted to, perhaps, let our conscience be our guide ("our own thoughts") or pray for the Holy Spirit to lead us or whatever. My thoughts would never be inserted into biblical texts (I'm not a translator/copyist).

You say,there is no evidence that anything was written or preserved in [Jesus'] lifetime. It is only through unauthenticated oral reporting that words have been attributed to Jesus, pbuh, in the bible. Are you ignoring, or at least giving no credit to God for His ability to use imperfect men to record exactly what He wants them to record? Jesus said in John 14:26. "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you." The writers of the New Testament could write decades after He said things and the Holy Spirit could still give them every single word Jesus spoke that the Spirit wanted to inspire them to write, whether in a gospel, epistle, or whatever. So why does it matter if it was written in 30 A.D. or 60 A.D.?

What you say about leaving Christianity interests me, because if you were once a Christian and then after 3 years you decided Islam is the truth, that raises some questions that I hope you don't mind answering for me. First, I'm wondering what type of Christian you were, denomination-wise. There is such a wide variety of churches, I'm curious which you were part of. Secondly, when you were in that church were you "saved" or "born again" or truly believing that Jesus had died for your sins and rose again? And finally, in your present faith, do you now reject all that, and think your sins will be somehow forgiven apart from the merits of Christ or His atoning work of redemption at Calvary?

Peace

 

[جوري]

I am under the impression that the Quran was ***embled from manuscripts written by hand and those who wrote it claim it is from Allah. Is the distinction then that it should not be sold for profit?

I challenge you then to find someone who is fluent in Arabic to come up with similar text or as you say manuscript to that of the Quran if you wanted to stand by the claim you just made....

 

[snakelegs]

No bros... it really means "anointed" I am fluent in Arabic.... to rub with fragrance oil... when we say the word Masikh aldjal... look for the meaning of the word it isn't just "anti-Christ"... his description is in the name itself... Arabic is a mighty powerful language....you can ask a scholar to validate... since Allah always knows best....

this is exactly the meaning of the word "moshiakh" in hebrew, which is also a very powerful language. i hope someday to study arabic. i think aramaic a lot closer to hebrew.

 

[جوري]

this is exactly the meaning of the word "moshiakh" in hebrew, which is also a very powerful language. i hope someday to study arabic. i think aramaic a lot closer to hebrew.

those languages are all very similar ... you can do what I do and get a word per day through this website in the language of your choice or languages of your choice to build vocabulary
http://travlang.com/
here is a sample page of what you'd be getting
Click on a linked word below to hear it spoken.
this is the word how much is the fair in every tongue
Afrikaans Hoeveel kos 'n kaartjie?
Albanian Sa kushton bileta? Sa është çmimi i biletës?
Amharic Sint new wagaw?
Arabic Bikam al ogra'a?
Armenian Vorkan eh djampou dzaghkeh
Asturian ¿Cuántu ye la tarifa?
Azerbaijani - Bilet neçædir?
Basque Zenbat balio du bidaiak?
Bengali Vara koto hobe?
Bosnian Koliko je karta?
Breton Pegement eo ar bilhed ?
Bulgarian Kolko struva/e taksata/bileta?
Cantonese che fai gei doh chin?
Catalan Quina és la tarifa?
Chipewyan Eh jauhn heys-al hah ehglah reen ltee ah
Cornish Pygemmys yw an tokyn?
Creole Ki onpil pri-la?
Croatian Posxto je karta?
Czech Kolik stojí cesta?
Dagaare A lOOrelibiri e la awola ?
Danish Hvor meget koster en billet
Dutch Wat kost een kaartje?
English How much is the fare?
Esperanto Kiom kostas la veturo?
Estonian Kui palju on sõiduraha?
Eurish Quante vehatu?
Farsi Bi'lit Chand Ast?
Finnish Kuinka paljon kyyti maksaa?
French Quel est le prix du billet?
Frisian Wat kostet in kaartsje?
Galician Canto custa o bilhete? - ¿Canto custa o billete?
Georgian ??
German Wieviel kostet die Fahrkarte?
Greek Po'so ka'ni to isiti'rio
Gujarati bhaaDuN keTluN ?
Hawaiian Ehia `ai`é `au iá`oe?
Hebrew Kama ole kartis hanesi'a?
Hindi kiraya kitanaa hai
Holooe Aì láp goä-chë chîn?
Hungarian Mennyibe kerül a jegy?
Icelandic Hvað kostar farið: mikið? Hve hátt er fargjaldið?
Ido Quante kustas la veturo?
Indonesian Berapa biayanya?
Interlingua Quanto costa le p***age?
Irish Cad é an táille?
Italian Quanto costa il biglietto?
Japanese Unchin wa ikura desu ka.
Korean Yo-ku-mun Ol-ma-im-ni-ka
Latin Quantum vectura est? Quanti tessera constat?
Latvian Cik maksa-?
Lithuanian Kiek kainuoja bilietas?
Luganda Tikiti ey'amagenda gokka ya mmeka?
Malaysian Berapakah tambangnya?
Mandarin che- fèi duo shaov?
Marshallese Jete wonen uwe?
Mazahua ??
Norwegian Hvor mye koster billetten?
Occitan Quant còsta d'anar a ... ?
Polish Ile kosztuje przejazd?
Portuguese Quanto é que custa o bilhete?
Brazilian Portuguese Quanto é a p***agem?
Quechua ??
Romanian Cât costã biletul?
Russian Skolko stoit bilet?
Serbian Posxto je karta?
Sesotho Tekete ke bokae?
Sinhala Ga-na. Keeya.dha.?
Slovak Kol^ko stojí cesta?
Slovenian Koliko stane prevoz?
Spanish ¿Cuánto cuesta el boleto (billete)?
Swahili Nauli ni kiasi gani?
Swedish Hur mycket kostar biljetten?
Tagalog Magkano ba ang pamasahe?
Thai ka-douy-sarn-tao-rai?
Tswana Go duelwa bo kae go ya kwa...?
Turkish ücret ne kadar
Ukrainian skilky koshtuye kvytok?
Vietnamese Giá vé là bao nhiêu
Welsh Faint yw'r pris?
Wolof p*** bi nyaata la?
Xhosa Yimalini ukuya e
Yiddish vifl kost di rayze?
Zulu kumalini ukuya e...?

 

[Woodrow]

Phil, using your words:

Jesus said in John 14:26. "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you." The writers of the New Testament could write decades after He said things and the Holy Spirit could still give them every single word Jesus spoke that the Spirit wanted to inspire them to write, whether in a gospel, epistle, or whatever. So why does it matter if it was written in 30 A.D. or 60 A.D.?

Would that not also make this true:

Or if it had been corrupted/misttranslated/lost to be restored in the early 7th Century

 

[snakelegs]

Dear Phil ... I don't have much time this morning to go over your requests point by point.... but will do my best... for starters.... YES... I have read the original bible of Barnbas http://www.understanding-islam.org/related/text.asp?type=rarticle&raid=26
I have a copy here at home.... MY dad has a doctorate in history ... so before my in depth look at religion I studied history.... I have every religion and ideology book known to man in my library that is not to say I have studied Shintoism in depth but we don't censor books in this house. I believe full-heartedly that travel and reading are the biggest combatants of ignorance and folk tale....

i agree with you about travel and reading (if you don't have $, it has to be reading lol) wow! you were fortunate to come from such a family! very rare.

 

[snakelegs]

those languages are all very similar ... you can do what I do and get a word per day through this website in the language of your choice or languages of your choice to build vocabulary
http://travlang.com/
thanks for the link. i've been trying to teach myself urdu for the last 3 years. (it goes very slowly). urdu isn't on that list, which seems to be common even tho there are plenty of urdu speakers. i like the fact that it has a lot of arabic and farsi words. but indo-european languages are so much harder then the semitic ones. bbc urdu comes in handy.

 

[جوري]

i agree with you about travel and reading (if you don't have $, it has to be reading lol) wow! you were fortunate to come from such a family! very rare.

Thank you....... All the Muslim families that I know of come from similar background or even much better... I really think you can travel on a budget (student universe).... and yes under the most stringent of circumstances a library card will do.....

 

[جوري]

those languages are all very similar ... you can do what I do and get a word per day through this website in the language of your choice or languages of your choice to build vocabulary
http://travlang.com/
thanks for the link. i've been trying to teach myself urdu for the last 3 years. (it goes very slowly). urdu isn't on that list, which seems to be common even tho there are plenty of urdu speakers. i like the fact that it has a lot of arabic and farsi words. but indo-european languages are so much harder then the semitic ones. bbc urdu comes in handy.

Good luck with that.... I didn't know urdu wasn't on the list =( I usually just look at three or four and have them sound it out...

 

[snakelegs]

Good luck with that.... I didn't know urdu wasn't on the list =( I usually just look at three or four and have them sound it out...

i just remembered http://urduword.com/
i completely forgot about that site.
i have an awful time with the grammar.
either i was smarter when i was younger, or i wasn't as smart as i thought i was lol.

 

[snakelegs]

Thank you....... All the Muslim families that I know of come from similar background or even much better... I really think you can travel on a budget (student universe).... and yes under the most stringent of circumstances a library card will do.....

i read somewhere that christians find muslims notoriously difficult to convert. that could be why.

 

[جوري]

i read somewhere that christians find muslims notoriously difficult to convert. that could be why.

Could be? I just think that many Christians treat Islam as a monolithic religion and would rather disprove it wrong by hanging on allegorical verses than actually studying it.... Which I think is the most honest method for a debate.......
هُوَ الَّذِيَ أَنزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُّحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ في قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاء الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاء تَأْوِيلِهِ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلاَّ اللّهُ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِّنْ عِندِ رَبِّنَا وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلاَّ أُوْلُواْ الألْبَابِ {7}
[Pickthal 3:7] He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.

 

[dougmusr]

Phil, using your words:



Would that not also make this true:

Or if it had been corrupted/misttranslated/lost to be restored in the early 7th Century

Actually it wouldn't because the Holy Spirit is part of the Trinity. The only reference I can think of in the Quran to the Holy Spirit referred to Christ, not to Muhammed, and besides, Muhammed's revelation came from Gabriel.

 

[Woodrow]

Actually it wouldn't because the Holy Spirit is part of the Trinity. The only reference I can think of in the Quran to the Holy Spirit referred to Christ, not to Muhammed, and besides, Muhammed's revelation came from Gabriel.

And if the Trinity does not exist, wouldn't that not make Gabriel the most logical Holy Spirit?

 

[dougmusr]

And if the Trinity does not exist, wouldn't that not make Gabriel the most logical Holy Spirit?

I would suspect not, unless you can show me in the Quran where it explicitly states Gabriel and the Holy Spirit were one and the same, or indicates Muhammed was strengthened by the Holy Spirit as was Christ.

 

[dougmusr]

What does anointed mean to you? What does it mean for you to be washed in perfume? how does it relate or not relate to prophethood? many prophets/messangers had unique qualities, which they were known for, Joseph as an example was known to interpret dreams... I am sure it is a gift bestowed upon many other prophets or messengers but when we think of dream interpretation we usually think of him, why should we attribute this quality to him when others shared in it? Why is John the Baptist "prophet "yahya" known as the "Baptist" even though others were known for their cleansing rituals as well? I am not sure what you are driving at with the question otherwise.....

No one here... well, Muslims at least is telling you that Jesus wasn't the messiah

The reason why I ask is that the above post indicates that Jesus was "The Messiah". It seems that if there is only one , the meaning of Messiah is of utmost importance. Are you saying that Jesus was "The Messiah" because He was annointed with perfume and that was enough to retain the title?

 

[جوري]

The reason why I ask is that the above post indicates that Jesus was "The Messiah". It seems that if there is only one , the meaning of Messiah is of utmost importance. Are you saying that Jesus was "The Messiah" because He was annointed with perfume and that was enough to retain the title?

Jesus was the messiah...The word "Christ" is derived from the Hebrew word Messiah, Arabic Maseeh. Root word masaha, meaning "to rub", "to m***age", "to anoint". Priests and kings were anointed when being consecrated to their offices. But in its translated Grecian form, "Christ" seems unique: befitting of Jesus only ...Christos means "Anointed", and anointed means appointed in its religious connotation. Jesus, peace and blessing be upon him, was appointed (anointed) at his baptism by John the Baptist, as God's Messenger. Every prophet of God is so anointed or appointed. The Holy Bible is replete with the "anointed" ones. Not only were prophets and priests and kings anointed (Christos-ed), but horns, and cherubs and lamp-posts also.

"I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar ..." (Genesis 31:13)

"If the priest that is anointed do sin ..." (Leviticus 4:3)

"And Moses... anointed the tabernacle and all things that was therein..." (Leviticus 8:100)

"..the Lord shall...exalt the horn of his anointed" (I Samuel 2:10)

"Thus saith the Lord to his anointed to Cyrus..." (Isaiah 45:1)

"Thou art the anointed cherub..." (Ezekiel 28:14)

In the original Hebrew, he was made a Messiah. you can read it all here if it intrigues you so...
http://www.jamaat.net/cis/ChristInIslam.html John (yahya) was the Baptist... Abraham Khalil Ullah, (Friend of God) prophet Mohammed Khatam Alrusul, the Seal of the Messengers... to each messanger a divine message to his people... Mohammed (PBUH) was sent to all man kind....Hope that answers your query??