Sikhism

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Unless you believe Allah is incapable of creating anything other than islam?

I dont think God would send different religions and confuse people. We are created to worship God. so it only makes sense that there would be "one" religion that the whole of mankind can follow. Theres so much indifference and hate because everyone follows a different religion and try to impose ideas on others. I dont think God would be considered just if He was to do that.

 

[Mohsin]

What is this 'contradiction' you keep ranting on about in Sikhism??

Haven't you been reading anything I have said? You tell me to read your posts properly but yet brother you are not even reading mine properly.

The following contradiction

According to you AVN, you believe that Sikhism says all religions are right. You say Muhammed is a Prophet of God. You say Hinduism is right, Judaism is right, Christianity is right

Yet how can God say he has a son (as in Christianity) and say he does not have a son at the same time (All other religions)
How can God say after we die there is a Day Of Judgement followed by hell/heaven, and at the same time God also says there will be reincarnation
How can Muhammed be the last prophet, how is it that he says it himself, how is it that God says so in the Qur'an (which you accept as the word of god here http://www.islamicboard.com/413417-post526.html) that Muhammed is the seal of the prophets. yet at the same time Guru nanak has been sent by God after him.

Also plently more contradictions come from the fact you acknowledge Muhammed PBUH as a Prophet, who only ordered his followers to do things that god ordered, and yet the SGGS criticises islamic practises in many places
It says why do we fast, do pilgrimage why do we pray towards mecca etc Where in fact God revealed these commands. So sikh gurus are questioning what God has decreed ??? :? :? :?
Even sikhs today question islamic practises. Why do men have 4 wives, why did Muhammed marry a 9 year old etc. Although there are reasons for the above, Sikhs (since they believe in prophet Muhammed PBUH) shouldn't question him on what he did as everything he did was from god. these are the contradictions in Sikh doctrine

 

[jss]

JSS;

I have been on this thread from the beginning, and i promise you you haven't answered my questions. I been pushing AllahAvarNoor to reply to two posts, and he hasn't yet. All he has said is the Qur'an may have become corrupted. I have given him a logical post, proving with logic, how it couldn't have changed. Even non-muslim historians who studied the preservation of nthe Qur'an admit it is unchanged.
The fact is, the Qur'an is very rhythmic, and so was easy to remember. Today in mosques kids as young as 6 and 7 know the whole Qur'an off by heart!!!. Companions memorised what was revealed to the Prophet PBUH. So logically, since so many people knew it off by heart at the time, it was impossible to change, since surely one of these hundreds of people atleast would have been a devout follower, and if he was to notice and chnage made in the Qur'an he would have spoken out and no doubt there would have been a big fuss and riots and wars etc but yet this never happened ever!

So logically, using your brains that god has given you, is it logical that it was changed by one of the greatest companions of the prophet Uthman, who was known to stay up all night without sleeping just praying to Allah, and that too, when so many companions of the prophet were around.

I know it sounds like an easy explanation, that the Qur'an has been changed, as it would not contradict Sikh doctrine, however you have to live up to the fact it is unchanged, logic says this, and even non-muslims have admitted to this, and the fact is there is still a copy from that time around in a museum in Turkey. So please, instead of maligning the authenticity of the Qur'an, just have the guts to admit it is ucnahnged, and Muhammed did say he was the last prophet, and thus Sikhism contradicts itself

No where in Sikh scriptures or Sikhi ithiaas (history) is it accepted that Muhammed was the last prophet, if without me knowing it is somehow noted then please do enlighten!?
However it is stated that Muhammed was just another prophet ,but followed his own interests. Before you kick off world war 3 plzzz remember that I am not disrespecting Muhammed (have no intention of doing so), I am just stating. And also plzz don't provide provide me with x amount of 'contradictory' versions and links cus there is enough info on this thread alone to keep someone going for a good year!

Did you know that that for one of my exams I used to revise day and night, I knew my notes off by heart but come the exam it turned out that one of the topics I revised was completely wrong and irrelevent! lol

Yeah neways, have you ever heard of the saying 'the victors write the history.'
At the end of the day I have my faith and you have yours, good luck in your journey!

bhul chuk maaf

 

[Mohsin]

No where in Sikh scriptures or Sikhi ithiaas (history) is it accepted that Muhammed was the last prophet,

I never said it did. I said it said Muhammed is a Prophet.

However it is stated that Muhammed was just another prophet ,but followed his own interests.

Hmm i think i have finally worked out what is going on. Can you provide the souce for this please from the SGGS.

Because my whole argument was that since you acknowledge he was a prophet, then you should acknowledge what he preaches, as everything he says is from god, they would never say anything to disobey God, surely otherwise God would not have chosen them as prophets. I am saying this as Muhammed PBUH himself said on many occasions he is the last of the prophets with nobody to be sent after him. So my argument is if you accept him as a prophet, why not accept what he says. It would only make sense if you totally reject him as a prophet, and thus whatever he says is false, but rather you accept him to be a prophet. So what is your position in this regard? You accept him as a prophet, but believe he disobeyed god and made his own laws "following his own interests" etc? please clarify

And also plzz don't provide provide me with x amount of 'contradictory' versions and links cus there is enough info on this thread alone to keep someone going for a good year!

Did you know that that for one of my exams I used to revise day and night, I knew my notes off by heart but come the exam it turned out that one of the topics I revised was completely wrong and irrelevent! lol

I am no sikh scholar, nor have I ever read any book on Sikhism. My posts over the last few weeks have been based on what AllahAvarNoor has said. So is what he is telling me incorrect then?

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

I never said it did. I said it said Muhammed is a Prophet.



Hmm i think i have finally worked out what is going on. Can you provide the souce for this please from the SGGS.

Because my whole argument was that since you acknowledge he was a prophet, then you should acknowledge what he preaches, as everything he says is from god, they would never say anything to disobey God, surely otherwise God would not have chosen them as prophets. I am saying this as Muhammed PBUH himself said on many occasions he is the last of the prophets with nobody to be sent after him. So my argument is if you accept him as a prophet, why not accept what he says. It would only make sense if you totally reject him as a prophet, and thus whatever he says is false, but rather you accept him to be a prophet. So what is your position in this regard? You accept him as a prophet, but believe he disobeyed god and made his own laws "following his own interests" etc? please clarify


I am no sikh scholar, nor have I ever read any book on Sikhism. My posts over the last few weeks have been based on what AllahAvarNoor has said. So is what he is telling me incorrect then?

Well i'm the only one who seems to be trying to explain, all the other Sikhs that have posted before, have given up because you're not interested in what's been said! - And how many times must it be said, Mohammed is the prophet of Islam, we do not accept what he says is for us! So you follow him and we'll follow our own. Just because sombody is aknowledged to be a prophet, does not mean we have to submit to what he says!

The Kuran states "to you be your religion and to me be mine" so lets leave it at that!

 

[Mohsin]

Well i'm the only one who seems to be trying to explain, all the other Sikhs that have posted before, have given up because you're not interested in what's been said! - And how many times must it be said, Mohammed is the prophet of Islam, we do not accept what he says is for us! So you follow him and we'll follow our own. Just because sombody is aknowledged to be a prophet, does not mean we have to submit to what he says!

The Kuran states "to you be your religion and to me be mine" so lets leave it at that!

I've read this whole thread. You haven't answered my questions, just look at the posts over the last 2 weeks and you'll recognise how you have been running away from these questions. You either accept Muhammed PBUH as a prophet or not. He is either 100% truthful, or he is a liar. What do you believe?

 

[Curaezipirid]

i don't think you have any answer, i think you are now realising how the sikh doctrine is self-contradicting

My firm belief, that I have recently witnessed events that have re-affirmed, is that essentially every Religion has components that manifest as though "self-contradicting". There is a simply science to this fact. If we are to manifest Religious teaching with no contraditions what-so-ever, then we find that we can not call upon Soul and Spirit for clarity, but are ever bound by the phenomena of relying upon self alone.

This is in the nature of the fact of Soul and Self being different, yet equally important. Our self is that we forgive for Allah of the world. Our Soul is that Allah forgives us eternally of because we have proven our worth by.

Any and every description that exists of Soul is a description that is inherently flawed only by the mere fact that we describe with our self.

When we are: "to know our Self as Soul" is can not mean that our self becomes a replication of Soul, but that we manifest in our self absorbtion from the environment of those components which serve the cause of our Soul.

An unfortunate condition arises for those persons whom attempt to portray their self as though never contractory. That is, they are only able to by causing that they are thwarted in Islam; that is, by "doing" their self by the tricks of black magic. Yet it is that such persons have a true function in Allah, of providing to the atmosphere of the Moon rather than the atmosphere of the Earth.

But it is truly very wrongful to impose upon persons that they must never contradict them self, because the result of extra efforts to so accord belief in others that there is no contradiction between Soul and Self, is that the Soul experiences being compromised. Either we experience a compromise in our self, and willingly accept an account against us through our love of living and love of Allah, or we experience a compromise in our Soul. There is no other condition until having passed through a visit to hell.

Thereby, it can not be right to condemn any Religion that is supportive of Islam, only because there are apparent contradictions. Surely as Muslims we can not but be aware of amply contractions within everything that falls within the idenfication of being a Muslim.

I Love Islam.

 

[unbreakable]

I've read this whole thread. You haven't answered my questions, just look at the posts over the last 2 weeks and you'll recognise how you have been running away from these questions. You either accept Muhammed PBUH as a prophet or not. He is either 100% truthful, or he is a liar. What do you believe?

Hi Moshin,

If you allow me.

Let me make it crystal clear to you.

Muhammed according to Islam is the last prophet. I believe you shall agree.

Ok, now that is your belief and we respect that.

According to the Sikhs he is not the last "prophet". But we still respect him, only him. Guru Ji makes no direct reference to him. Because there is no need.

In the end, Allah shall judge is all, so why are you finding a needle which does not exist? Concentrate on being a good Muslim, rather than asking questions to which you know the answers.

I find it quite surprising that since my last post here, a Muslim member has said there is no direct reference to Muhammed. Well there is not, but there is a indirect reference. Which I posted a while back.

This really shows how much attention you are paying? not much.

"..
Becoming a true Muslim, a disciple of the faith of Mohammed, let him put aside the delusion of death and life.

As he submits to God's Will, and surrenders to the Creator, he is rid of selfishness and conceit.

And when, O Nanak, he is merciful to all beings, only then shall he be called a Muslim. .."

Here Guru is talking about how a Muslim can become a True Muslim of Mohammed.

Hence one can say that Mohammed is indeed a prophet of God, but according to the Sikhs not the last as Islam preaches.

That is not a contradiction, its a belief. you have yours and I have mine.

Problem here is respect for one another.

We all believe in Allah/Waheguru, so why are you fighting against us?


Well I am off, be back in two weeks (If I know you guys, you shall be nit picking again.)

:brother:

 

[Curaezipirid]

Did it occur to anybody that Guru Ji may be making no reference to Mohammed out of respect for the dignity of that he has already p***ed from among us.

AND SIMULTANEOUSLY it is that Mohammed can only have been the last Prophet since no other could ever in any possiblity come after Qur'an is

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

Did it occur to anybody that Guru Ji may be making no reference to Mohammed out of respect for the dignity of that he has already p***ed from among us.

AND SIMULTANEOUSLY it is that Mohammed can only have been the last Prophet since no other could ever in any possiblity come after Qur'an is

What does this say?

 

[Mohsin]

Hence one can say that Mohammed is indeed a prophet of God, but according to the Sikhs not the last as Islam preaches.

That is not a contradiction, its a belief. you have yours and I have mine.

:hiding: :hiding: :hiding:

Unbreakable, thank you for your post, but with all due respect, it is you brother who have not been reading my posts carefully

Not once have I claimed that according to Sikh beliefs Muhammed is the last prophet. All I have said it is contradictory to say Prophet Muhammed is a Prophet, but not the last. Why you ask?

If you believe Prophet Muhammed PBUh to be a prophet, then you should acknowledge his honesty. He would never lie. He can't be a liar, because;

• God knows the future. God won't choose a Prophet who is going to lie in his name, god chooses the best of people to be messengers
• If Muhammed PBUH was to lie, God would surely punish him for disobeying him and making his own lies about the laws and rules of islam
• Muhammed PBUH was known before the advent of Islam by his enemies as the honest truthful one. Note this was before he claimed Prophethood, he was known not to have ever told a lie ever. People would entrust him with all their wealth in his house. Is it logical that after receiving Prophethood, he would then start lieing, about something far more important and significant, about God himself!

I hope it is now estabilsihed that Muhammed PBUh can't be a liar, as these are not the qualities of a prophet. So what did prophet Muhammed say exactly?



The Prophet PBUH also said;
“The best illustration of my relationship to previous Prophets is the case of a man who built a mansion which he perfected and beautified, except for a the spot of a single brick in one of its corners (which he had left vacant). People went around the mansion, all of them fascinated by it, and exclaiming: 'how excellent it would be if only this space had been filled!' I am that brick and I am the seal of Prophets.” (Reported by Imam Muslim and others).

"The tribe of Israel was guided by prophets. When a prophet passed away, another prophet succeeded him. But no prophet will come after me; only caliphs will succeed me." (Reported by al-Bukhari)

"I have been given superiority over the other prophets in six respects: I have been endowed with the gift of pithy and perfect speech; I have been helped by fear (in the hearts of enemies): spoils have been made lawful to me: the earth has been made for me clean and a place of worship; I have been sent to all mankind and the line of prophets is closed with me." (Reported by Muslim)

"The chain of Messengers and Prophets has come to an end. There shall be no Messenger nor Prophet after me." (Reported by At-Tirmidhi and Ahmad)

And he also said the Qur'an is the word of god. lets see what God says;

O people ! Muhammad has no sons among ye men, but verily, he is the Messenger of Allah and the last in the line of Prophets (khaatam an-Nabiyyin). And God is Aware of everything.
(Al-Ahzab 33: 40)​

So why would he lie? Either he is a liar or he is truthful. He can't be a liar as according to sikhism you believe him to be a prophet, and it is clear he can't lie. So please explain how he can be a prophet and yet not be the last?

 

[unbreakable]

Moshin,

If you had been reading my posts Moshin, with all due respect, you would not be asking the same question again and again and again...NO problem, its fine.

Let me set this straight once and for all....pay attention please.

With all due respect, thats is incorrect, wrong, he is wrong in saying that. According to the Sikhs. (remember this)

Now if he is wrong in saying that, then it does not matter what the Qu'ran reads. (with all due respect) (I have said this before, that belief in the Qu'ran holds no meaning for a Sikh, you know why)

But you shall follow his command nevertheless. For he is your prophet. (remember this, most important)

We give him respect as one of, but not the lastGods messengers, but we only listen to our Guru.

Once again I say, He is a prophet for the Muslims, not for the Sikhs

Guru Ji gives guidance to people of all faiths and not just the Sikhs. (which I have established and proved). That is the beauty of Sikhism, it is truely universal, there is no small print that you have to convert...etc..etc.

So once again. According to the Sikhs what you have established is wrong, so with all due respect Moshin, you can take this whichever way you like, weather he is a liar..etc. I leave that to you to decide.

Respect for him shall not change.

I would strongly recommend that you understand this, no matter what you say, Sikh belief in God, Sikhism, is not going to change., and of course vice versa, Muslims belief in Islam is not going to change.

I respect you for your belief, I say Moshin, be a good Muslims, do good deeds in the name of Allah.

:thankyou:

Can I ask you some questions, if you may?

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

:hiding: :hiding: :hiding:

Unbreakable, thank you for your post, but with all due respect, it is you brother who have not been reading my posts carefully

Not once have I claimed that according to Sikh beliefs Muhammed is the last prophet. All I have said it is contradictory to say Prophet Muhammed is a Prophet, but not the last. Why you ask?

If you believe Prophet Muhammed PBUh to be a prophet, then you should acknowledge his honesty. He would never lie. He can't be a liar, because;

• God knows the future. God won't choose a Prophet who is going to lie in his name, god chooses the best of people to be messengers
• If Muhammed PBUH was to lie, God would surely punish him for disobeying him and making his own lies about the laws and rules of islam
• Muhammed PBUH was known before the advent of Islam by his enemies as the honest truthful one. Note this was before he claimed Prophethood, he was known not to have ever told a lie ever. People would entrust him with all their wealth in his house. Is it logical that after receiving Prophethood, he would then start lieing, about something far more important and significant, about God himself!

I hope it is now estabilsihed that Muhammed PBUh can't be a liar, as these are not the qualities of a prophet. So what did prophet Muhammed say exactly?



The Prophet PBUH also said;
“The best illustration of my relationship to previous Prophets is the case of a man who built a mansion which he perfected and beautified, except for a the spot of a single brick in one of its corners (which he had left vacant). People went around the mansion, all of them fascinated by it, and exclaiming: 'how excellent it would be if only this space had been filled!' I am that brick and I am the seal of Prophets.” (Reported by Imam Muslim and others).

"The tribe of Israel was guided by prophets. When a prophet passed away, another prophet succeeded him. But no prophet will come after me; only caliphs will succeed me." (Reported by al-Bukhari)

"I have been given superiority over the other prophets in six respects: I have been endowed with the gift of pithy and perfect speech; I have been helped by fear (in the hearts of enemies): spoils have been made lawful to me: the earth has been made for me clean and a place of worship; I have been sent to all mankind and the line of prophets is closed with me." (Reported by Muslim)

"The chain of Messengers and Prophets has come to an end. There shall be no Messenger nor Prophet after me." (Reported by At-Tirmidhi and Ahmad)

And he also said the Qur'an is the word of god. lets see what God says;

O people ! Muhammad has no sons among ye men, but verily, he is the Messenger of Allah and the last in the line of Prophets (khaatam an-Nabiyyin). And God is Aware of everything.
(Al-Ahzab 33: 40)​

So why would he lie? Either he is a liar or he is truthful. He can't be a liar as according to sikhism you believe him to be a prophet, and it is clear he can't lie. So please explain how he can be a prophet and yet not be the last?

Good Lord! What do you want us to say??? You keep asking the same questions? Why! Mohammed is a MUSLIM Prophet FOR the muslims NOT the Sikhs. He's respected just like Jesus/Moses etc etc, but because we respect Jesus does that mean we're going to believe he was God on earth, as claimed by Christians?? NO!

Final time, this is what the Word of God states for Sikhs and all other mankind!!

O Sikhs of the Guru, know that the Word of the True Guru, is true, absolutely true. The Creator Lord Himself causes the Guru to chant it. (Guru Granth Sahib, 308)

When I speak, I speak as You (God) make me speak. (Guru Granth Sahib, 565)


The Word of the Guru has been emanated from God. It eradicates all anxiety. (Guru Granth Sahib, 627)


O God, O Creator, Lord and Master of the devotee Nanak, as You wish, so do I speak. (Guru Granth Sahib, 800)


What can I say? I don't know what to say. Whatever pleases God, so do I speak. (Guru Granth Sahib, 1202)


Now we're not asking YOU to accept it, but it's what the truth holds!

Gur Fateh

 

[bint_muhammed]

mohsin is trying to say, why dont you believe in the prophet, because god didnt send down different prophets for different people, they were all trying to bring the same message! we believ that the message of other prophets before prophet muhammed (pbuh) were changed and prophet muhammed did state he was the last prophet so do you think he was lying or is the quran not completely the word of god as that also states that he is the last prophet!

 

[Zohair]

yeah...if guru nanek says that muhammad was indeed a prophet of god, why don't you accept what he says? and he said that he was the last prophet, and no new faith/religion would come after him.

that is the question every muslim has been asking to the sikhs on this forum, but it is failed to be answered, instead, the response you get is some verses from the sggs.

 

[Mohsin]

Moshin,

If you had been reading my posts Moshin, with all due respect, you would not be asking the same question again and again and again...NO problem, its fine.

Let me set this straight once and for all....pay attention please.

With all due respect, thats is incorrect, wrong, he is wrong in saying that. According to the Sikhs. (remember this)

Now if he is wrong in saying that, then it does not matter what the Qu'ran reads. (with all due respect) (I have said this before, that belief in the Qu'ran holds no meaning for a Sikh, you know why)

But you shall follow his command nevertheless. For he is your prophet. (remember this, most important)

We give him respect as one of, but not the lastGods messengers, but we only listen to our Guru.

Once again I say, He is a prophet for the Muslims, not for the Sikhs

Guru Ji gives guidance to people of all faiths and not just the Sikhs. (which I have established and proved). That is the beauty of Sikhism, it is truely universal, there is no small print that you have to convert...etc..etc.

So once again. According to the Sikhs what you have established is wrong, so with all due respect Moshin, you can take this whichever way you like, weather he is a liar..etc. I leave that to you to decide.

Respect for him shall not change.

I would strongly recommend that you understand this, no matter what you say, Sikh belief in God, Sikhism, is not going to change., and of course vice versa, Muslims belief in Islam is not going to change.

I respect you for your belief, I say Moshin, be a good Muslims, do good deeds in the name of Allah.

:thankyou:

Can I ask you some questions, if you may?

I don't understand how you can acknowledge him as a prophet if he contradicts sikh doctrine. How can you respect him if he teaches different things about God, which in sikh eyes is untrue about God?

Can I ask you some questions, if you may?

Feel free. It will probably be better to start a new thread with any questions you have. Or maybe you can continue here http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/6937-questions-islam-sikh.html

 

[jss]

I don't understand how you can acknowledge him as a prophet if he contradicts sikh doctrine. How can you respect him if he teaches different things about God, which in sikh eyes is untrue about God?




Feel free. It will probably be better to start a new thread with any questions you have. Or maybe you can continue here http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/6937-questions-islam-sikh.html

Sikhi acknowledges the existence of many worldly prophets, dietes etc....but it is especially stressed that a Sikh should follow Akal Purakh (God) directly and this is done through the Guru's guidance and naam
But the end result achieved by following the teachings of the True Guru is by far different than the guidance of a prophet (different levels in a sense)This has been mentioned over and over again but many peeps have failed to comprehend some comments.
In a sense it is the bigger picture.

Sikhi doctrine stated that the prophet you worship followed his own interests rather than directly joining ppl with God. The proof you asked for is stated is the past couple of pages on this thread-try checking.
Therefore the view 'the last prophet' cannot be accepted.

Forgive me, I'm going abit deep into Sikh philosophy
If you still can't comprehend then read gurbani and about the Sikh faith-then you will have a greater understanding.

On a general note Sikhs should respect all religions and not attack the beliefs of others. God I think you would agree, is the all knower and Gurbani emphasises that God is in every human being-therefore we all are equal before his eyes and will be judged according to our deeds.

Hope others can give better answers and you peeps understand abit more!

bhul chuk maaf

 

[Fishman]

Sikhi acknowledges the existence of many worldly prophets, dietes etc....but it is especially stressed that a Sikh should follow Akal Purakh (God) directly and this is done through the Guru's guidance and naam
But the end result achieved by following the teachings of the True Guru is by far different than the guidance of a prophet (different levels in a sense)This has been mentioned over and over again but many peeps have failed to comprehend some comments.
In a sense it is the bigger picture.

Sikhi doctrine stated that the prophet you worship followed his own interests rather than directly joining ppl with God. The proof you asked for is stated is the past couple of pages on this thread-try checking.
Therefore the view 'the last prophet' cannot be accepted.

Forgive me, I'm going abit deep into Sikh philosophy
If you still can't comprehend then read gurbani and about the Sikh faith-then you will have a greater understanding.

On a general note Sikhs should respect all religions and not attack the beliefs of others. God I think you would agree, is the all knower and Gurbani emphasises that God is in every human being-therefore we all are equal before his eyes and will be judged according to our deeds.

Hope others cannot give better answers and you peeps understand abit more!

bhul chuk maaf

1. Muslims do not worship Muhammad. We just follow what he said, and take him as a role model.
2. Why would Allah (swt) have chosen a person who was going to follow their own interests?

 

[jss]

If that is the case and what you believe about Gods actions, then ask yourself-why is the whole world not Muslim.

Muhammed didn't cause the world to recite naam (divine profit). For further info read the many informative posts that ppl have typed.

bhul chuk maaf

 

[Fishman]

If that is the case and what you believe about Gods actions, then ask yourself-why is the whole world not Muslim.

Muslims believe that Muhammad (pbuh) is Allah's final messenger. We do not worship him though, as he is only Allah (swt)'s slave and messenger.

Muhammed didn't cause the world to recite naam (divine profit). For further info read the many informative posts that ppl have typed.

Muhammad (pbuh) did cause much of the world to recite the Quran though!