Jesus' Crucifixion
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YUSUFALI: When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the disciples: "We are Allah's helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.
Sound like a vision from God turned his life around and he became a messenger.
Crucifixion if I understand it correctly was a public execution in a highly visible place. The fact the apostles fled does not mean that others did not witness the crucifixion, nor that the apostles did not watch from a distance. Acts says it was widly known.
Lk 24:13 Now behold, two of them were traveling that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was seven miles from Jerusalem. 14 And they talked together of all these things which had happened. 15 So it was, while they conversed and reasoned, that Jesus Himself drew near and went with them.
16 But their eyes were restrained, so that they did not know Him. 17 And He said to them, "What kind of conversation is this that you have with one another as you walk and are sad?" 18 Then the one whose name was Cleopas answered and said to Him, "Are You the only stranger in Jerusalem, and have You not known the things which happened there in these days?" 19 And He said to them, "What things?" So they said to Him, "The things concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a Prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people, 20 "and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to be condemned to death, and crucified Him. 21 "But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel. Indeed, besides all this, today is the third day since these things happened. 22 "Yes, and certain women of our company, who arrived at the tomb early, astonished us. 23 "When they did not find His body, they came saying that they had also seen a vision of angels who said He was alive. 24 "And certain of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said; but Him they did not see."
25 Then He said to them, "O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 "Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?" 27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.
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The person who wrote that the apostles were not alive at the time of I'sa(as) appears to have been mistaken. Perhaps my writing that the Gosples were written in Greek after they died is what caused the confusion.
We really have no doubt that somebody was crucified or at least killed in some unpleasant manner. We also have no doubt that it was witnessed by many and that the people did believe it was Is'a(as). But we do not believe it was I'sa.
Now as far as the empty tomb, I do not know if that was or was not. I do believe that I'sa(as) did ascend into Heaven, but he did not die on Earth, he ascended bodily and living and he will return to Earth.
We really have no doubt that somebody was crucified or at least killed in some unpleasant manner. We also have no doubt that it was witnessed by many and that the people did believe it was Is'a(as). But we do not believe it was I'sa.
Now as far as the empty tomb, I do not know if that was or was not. I do believe that I'sa(as) did ascend into Heaven, but he did not die on Earth, he ascended bodily and living and he will return to Earth.
It seems quite clear. The apostles were human and outside of Lazarus, had not experienced a ressurection. The apostles were disciples of Christ, meaning they were in training. Much of their learning came after remembering Christ's words and reflecting on past events. I do not find fear to be an abnormal reaction to seeing someone you thought had been crucified alive.
There are many who eat without needing to eat. For spirits, it may be part of the enjoyment of Heaven, unless the Quran is incorrect.
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YUSUFALI: (Every) fruit (enjoyment) will be there for them; they shall have whatever they call for;
PICKTHAL: Theirs the fruit (of their good deeds) and theirs (all) that they ask;
SHAKIR: They shall have fruits therein, and they shall have whatever they desire.
Actually He was trying to convince them He had risen from the dead. He is still trying to convince Muslims of this today.
Lk 16:19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 "But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 "desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
25 "But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' 27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 'for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
29 "Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30 "And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 "But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "
i'm more confused now than i was before. I thought muslims believe that he was taken up to heaven before being tortured/crucified. If so, how would he appear to the apostles alive?
And....to the best of my knowledge, all 12 apostles were there with Jesus at the last supper so of course Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were alive when he was alive.
Again...I"m not understanding what exactly you all believe because one person is saying one thing and another is saying something different.
And....to the best of my knowledge, all 12 apostles were there with Jesus at the last supper so of course Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were alive when he was alive.
Again...I"m not understanding what exactly you all believe because one person is saying one thing and another is saying something different.
Not to mention with scars on His hands, feet, and side.
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I don't want to comment on your post at all except for this portion partially because I am not part of this debate and partially b/c it wasn't addressed to me....
the verse you are referring to goes in a series like this
إِنَّ أَصْحَابَ الْجَنَّةِ الْيَوْمَ فِي شُغُلٍ فَاكِهُونَ {55}
[Yusufali 36:55] Verily the Companions of the Garden shall that Day have joy in all that they do;
)
هُمْ وَأَزْوَاجُهُمْ فِي ظِلَالٍ عَلَى الْأَرَائِكِ مُتَّكِؤُونَ {56}
[Yusufali 36:56] They and their associates will be in groves of (cool) shade, reclining on Thrones (of dignity);
لَهُمْ فِيهَا فَاكِهَةٌ وَلَهُم مَّا يَدَّعُونَ {57}
[Yusufali 36:57] (Every) fruit (enjoyment) will be there for them; they shall have whatever they call for;
when we if God wills it go to heaven, we will NOT BE IN "spirit" form the verses above clearly speak of the Gardens .. ... same ones where ADAM and his wife once dwelled... same ones where they enjoyed and ate fruits and whatever else... we will live there eternally...it isn't Hades it is heaven... That is God's promise... I don't see how the verse relates at all to your argument... if interested at all you should read the whole passage to develop a more thorough understanding as opposed to a myopic view to make a point......
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No one can give you finite details here.... Muslims believe he was taken up to heaven to return when time is right to die like the son of man not the son of God as all man kind will. Some believe it was Judas who was crucified in his stead ... and some believe another person who looked like him... I am rooting that it was Judas but I don't know... I know that Jesus is to return to put an end to all the innovations that have taken place, to unify the world ... to pray like Muslims do ... to show that there is but ONE GOD ... no sons ... no daughters ... no wives ... no one sits on the throne but Allah( Allaha) Aramiac (yaweh) One GOD....... why don't people have reverence for the Throne of God it is a conundrum... I just saw the most disgusting Simpsons episode where they have Jesus on a swing rocking back and forth and God stating look what you have done to my son Homer.... If it is all a joke to people and I see it as Joke for most then so be it... But it isn't to Muslims....
If, as you say Islam believes that people are in paradise in the flesh, then your point is valid. I presume you also believe people are in Hell in the flesh since the verses on judgement follow the verses on the garden. If this is so, then God will work a miracle in maintaining them physically alive while he toasts them.
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YUSUFALI: "This is the Hell of which ye were (repeatedly) warned!
PICKTHAL: This is hell which ye were promised (if ye followed him).
SHAKIR: This is the hell with which you were threatened.
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YUSUFALI: "Embrace ye the (fire) this Day, for that ye (persistently) rejected (Truth)."
PICKTHAL: Burn therein this day for that ye disbelieved.
SHAKIR: Enter into it this day because you disbelieved.
PurestAmbrosia said:
I wonder how eskimos would interpret this verse?
People who dwell in the hot desert would find this verse very attractive. It is clear this verse is directed at people who live in hot climates - the Middle East.
This means the message
1 - did not come from God or;
2 - God forgot about those who live in cold countries.
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yup... people in hell are in the flesh.. if you study science you'll know that pain can only be felt during first and 2nd degree burns and the miracles of this is that God stated he will keep replacing their skin whenever it blisters off so they will feel pain anew...
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Are you Waldo? or is this another one of your fancy thesis? and it is just "tooooooooooo subtle" for us to pick up on?
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"Truly, those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall fling into the fire: As often as their skins are roasted through, We shall exchange them for fresh skins, that they may taste the punishment.." [4:56]"
Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) would have no way of knowing of first or second degree burns...
Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) would have no way of knowing of first or second degree burns...
Jesus says punishment of evil follows resurrection.
Jn 5:28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 "and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
The Quran likewise says the day of judgement follows this life.
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YUSUFALI: After this it is ye, the same people, who slay among yourselves, and banish a party of you from their homes; assist (Their enemies) against them, in guilt and rancour; and if they come to you as captives, ye ransom them, though it was not lawful for you to banish them. Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? but what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life?- and on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For Allah is not unmindful of what ye do.
PICKTHAL: Yet ye it is who slay each other and drive out a party of your people from their homes, supporting one another against them by sin and transgression? - and if they came to you as captives ye would ransom them, whereas their expulsion was itself unlawful for you - Believe ye in part of the Scripture and disbelieve ye in part thereof? And what is the reward of those who do so save ignominy in the life of the world, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be consigned to the most grievous doom. For Allah is not unaware of what ye do.
SHAKIR: Yet you it is who slay your people and turn a party from among you out of their homes, backing each other up against them unlawfully and exceeding the limits; and if they should come to you, as captives you would ransom them-- while their very turning out was unlawful for you. Do you then believe in a part of the Book and disbelieve in the other? What then is the re ward of such among you as do this but disgrace in the life of this world, and on the day of resurrection they shall be sent back to the most grievous chastisement, and Allah is not at all heedless of what you do.
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What am I to make of this doug?
I quoted you a verse from the Quran as to the punishment in Hell in reply that yes people will be in flesh I don't know what sort but they will not be "spirits"
"Truly, those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall fling into the fire: As often as their skins are roasted through, We shall exchange them for fresh skins, that they may taste the punishment.." [4:56]"
One the day of judgment we come as we are when we died from my understanding and when we enter into heaven or hell we'll take on the form that God wills... why is that so difficult to comprehend... the one who created each soul the first time around will account for each soul he created...
I quoted you a verse from the Quran as to the punishment in Hell in reply that yes people will be in flesh I don't know what sort but they will not be "spirits"
"Truly, those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall fling into the fire: As often as their skins are roasted through, We shall exchange them for fresh skins, that they may taste the punishment.." [4:56]"
One the day of judgment we come as we are when we died from my understanding and when we enter into heaven or hell we'll take on the form that God wills... why is that so difficult to comprehend... the one who created each soul the first time around will account for each soul he created...
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The confusion is very understandable. Jews, Christians and Muslims all believe that God(swt) did send the truth down to man. We have 3 different books. Although there are similarities there are enough differences to say that they are totaly different not just different translations, different stories.
It is like saying that at one time there was only one form of cooking and a great cook book was written telling how to cook. Centuries later there are 3 cook books. One for French Cuisine, another for Chinese dishes and another for North American Indians.
Each will say theirs is the true cook book. Now you can can not convince the American Indian that the French Cooking is the proper way to cook by explaining it through the French cook book. He will show you in his cook book the proper way to cook. That will be a repeated arguement between them until doomsday. so, it is with us.
We are each talking about different things, similar but not the same.
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إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ بِآيَاتِنَا سَوْفَ نُصْلِيهِمْ نَارًا كُلَّمَا نَضِجَتْ جُلُودُهُمْ بَدَّلْنَاهُمْ جُلُودًا غَيْرَهَا لِيَذُوقُواْ الْعَذَابَ إِنَّ اللّهَ كَانَ عَزِيزًا حَكِيمًا {56}
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 4:56]
Aqa Mahdi Puya says:
Those who disbelieve Allah's signs shall be cast into fire, and when their skin (jild) is burnt up, then Allah shall give them a new skin so that they may go on tasting the agony of punishment. The continuous torment or comfort will be physical as well as spiritual. The outer structure of the body communicates the feelings of pain or pleasure to the soul, and as the cognitive self is not changed, the renewed outer structure, though had not committed the sin, yet will be used to convey pain or pleasure to the unchangeable soul. None of the senses will ever be destroyed but will be made sharper to taste pain or pleasure. Refer to al-Qaf: 20 to 22. This verse refers to the continuity of a process, therefore, it negates the theory of transmigration of the soul-return of the departed soul to another body which has a soul of its own.
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 4:56]
Aqa Mahdi Puya says:
Those who disbelieve Allah's signs shall be cast into fire, and when their skin (jild) is burnt up, then Allah shall give them a new skin so that they may go on tasting the agony of punishment. The continuous torment or comfort will be physical as well as spiritual. The outer structure of the body communicates the feelings of pain or pleasure to the soul, and as the cognitive self is not changed, the renewed outer structure, though had not committed the sin, yet will be used to convey pain or pleasure to the unchangeable soul. None of the senses will ever be destroyed but will be made sharper to taste pain or pleasure. Refer to al-Qaf: 20 to 22. This verse refers to the continuity of a process, therefore, it negates the theory of transmigration of the soul-return of the departed soul to another body which has a soul of its own.
1. Hana_Aku said Jesus was alive because spirits don't eat. I cited a verse from the Quran which I believe indicated people in Heaven will enjoy fruit.
2. You said the reference to a garden in the verse indicates people are in heaven in the flesh since Adam was in the garden in the flesh, and further went on to say people are in Hell in the flesh.
3. Both the Quran and the Bible say one must be resurrected to experience Heaven and Hell.
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Good enough I'll accept it... have a great evening I am off
