Pope Seen Criticizing Islam

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here are excerpts from Pope's speech. Is it really offensive to you?
He quoted man from XIV century, who - yes, probably didn't like Islam. But hey! christian history is often also presented from one side! It doesn't make anyone happy but let's not exaggerat. It doesn't seem to me Pope was trying to insult you.
and another article: Turkish official compares pope to Hitler

I've seen a video of his speech. What he said was: Muhammed brought nothing new to teh world that is good, only bad things such as spreading religion by the sword. (astagfurallah)
Is that offensive to me? Defenitly! To see the most honorable and respectfull man of history slandered in such a way hurts me deeply.

But let me tell you just a single thing of what muhammed (pbuh) brought: he thought us not to slander other religions because it will only invite others to slander Islam. So slandering another religion is equal to slandering your own.

Sadly the pope did not recieve that message.
 
Hang on a minute. Does anyone have a transcript of the entire speech? As I understand it this passage was a quote rather than the Pope's own words. I'd like to get an idea of its context before coming to a conclusion.
 
I'm Turkish and I really dislike this man. I'm an agnostic, but I know how religions work, all I can see is pure ignorance in that speech. But I also think that the speech is deliberated.
 
I am really trying to avoid this thread but here is the full text translation of the Holy Father's speech for you Muezzin:

Lecture of His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI at the Meeting with the Representatives of Science said:
Faith, Reason and the University
Memories and Reflections


Distinguished Ladies and Gentlemen,

It is a moving experience for me to stand and give a lecture at this university podium once again. I think back to those years when, after a pleasant period at the Freisinger Hochschule, I began teaching at the University of Bonn. This was in 1959, in the days of the old university made up of ordinary professors. The various chairs had neither assistants nor secretaries, but in recompense there was much direct contact with students and in particular among the professors themselves. We would meet before and after lessons in the rooms of the teaching staff. There was a lively exchange with historians, philosophers, philologists and, naturally, between the two theological faculties. Once a semester there was a dies academicus, when professors from every faculty appeared before the students of the entire university, making possible a genuine experience of universitas: the reality that despite our specializations which at times make it difficult to communicate with each other, we made up a whole, working in everything on the basis of a single rationality with its various aspects and sharing responsibility for the right use of reason - this reality became a lived experience. The university was also very proud of its two theological faculties. It was clear that, by inquiring about the reasonableness of faith, they too carried out a work which is necessarily part of the whole of the universitas scientiarum, even if not everyone could share the faith which theologians seek to correlate with reason as a whole. This profound sense of coherence within the universe of reason was not troubled, even when it was once reported that a colleague had said there was something odd about our university: it had two faculties devoted to something that did not exist: God. That even in the face of such radical scepticism it is still necessary and reasonable to raise the question of God through the use of reason, and to do so in the context of the tradition of the Christian faith: this, within the university as a whole, was accepted without question.



I was reminded of all this recently, when I read the edition by Professor Theodore Khoury (Münster) of part of the dialogue carried on - perhaps in 1391 in the winter barracks near Ankara - by the erudite Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologus and an educated Persian on the subject of Christianity and Islam, and the truth of both. It was probably the emperor himself who set down this dialogue, during the siege of Constantinople between 1394 and 1402; and this would explain why his arguments are given in greater detail than the responses of the learned Persian. The dialogue ranges widely over the structures of faith contained in the Bible and in the Qur'an, and deals especially with the image of God and of man, while necessarily returning repeatedly to the relationship of the three Laws: the Old Testament, the New Testament and the Qur'an. In this lecture I would like to discuss only one point - itself rather marginal to the dialogue itself - which, in the context of the issue of faith and reason, I found interesting and which can serve as the starting-point for my reflections on this issue.


In the seventh conversation (διάλεξις - controversy) edited by Professor Khoury, the emperor touches on the theme of the jihad (holy war). The emperor must have known that surah 2, 256 reads: There is no compulsion in religion. It is one of the suras of the early period, when Mohammed was still powerless and under threaten. But naturally the emperor also knew the instructions, developed later and recorded in the Qur’an, concerning holy war. Without decending to details, such as the difference in treatment accorded to those who have the “Book” and the “infidels”, he turns to his interlocutor somewhat brusquely with the central question on the relationship between religion and violence in general, in these words: "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." The emperor goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul. God is not pleased by blood, and not acting reasonably (σὺν λόγω) is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats... To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death....

The decisive statement in this argument against violent conversion is this: not to act in accordance with reason is contrary to God's nature. The editor, Theodore Khoury, observes: For the emperor, as a Byzantine shaped by Greek philosophy, this statement is self-evident. But for Muslim teaching, God is absolutely transcendent. His will is not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality. Here Khoury quotes a work of the noted French Islamist R. Arnaldez, who points out that Ibn Hazn went so far as to state that God is not bound even by his own word, and that nothing would oblige him to reveal the truth to us. Were it God's will, we would even have to practise idolatry.


As far as understanding of God and thus the concrete practice of religion is concerned, we find ourselves faced with a dilemma which nowadays challenges us directly. Is the conviction that acting unreasonably contradicts God's nature merely a Greek idea, or is it always and intrinsically true? I believe that here we can see the profound harmony between what is Greek in the best sense of the word and the biblical understanding of faith in God. Modifying the first verse of the Book of Genesis, John began the prologue of his Gospel with the words: In the beginning was the λόγoς. This is the very word used by the emperor: God acts with logos. Logos means both reason and word - a reason which is creative and capable of self-communication, precisely as reason. John thus spoke the final word on the biblical concept of God, and in this word all the often toilsome and tortuous threads of biblical faith find their culmination and synthesis. In the beginning was the logos, and the logos is God, says the Evangelist. The encounter between the Biblical message and Greek thought did not happen by chance. The vision of Saint Paul, who saw the roads to Asia barred and in a dream saw a Macedonian man plead with him: Come over to Macedonia and help us! (cf. Acts 16:6-10) - this vision can be interpreted as a distillation of the intrinsic necessity of a rapprochement between Biblical faith and Greek inquiry.


In point of fact, this rapprochement had been going on for some time. The mysterious name of God, revealed from the burning bush, a name which separates this God from all other divinities with their many names and declares simply that he is, is already presents a challenge to the notion of myth, to which Socrates's attempt to vanquish and transcend myth stands in close analogy. Within the Old Testament, the process which started at the burning bush came to new maturity at the time of the Exile, when the God of Israel, an Israel now deprived of its land and worship, was proclaimed as the God of heaven and earth and described in a simple formula which echoes the words uttered at the burning bush: I am. This new understanding of God is accompanied by a kind of enlightenment, which finds stark expression in the mockery of gods who are merely the work of human hands (cf. Ps 115). Thus, despite the bitter conflict with those Hellenistic rulers who sought to accommodate it forcibly to the customs and idolatrous cult of the Greeks, biblical faith, in the Hellenistic period, encountered the best of Greek thought at a deep level, resulting in a mutual enrichment evident especially in the later wisdom literature. Today we know that the Greek translation of the Old Testament produced at Alexandria - the Septuagint - is more than a simple (and in that sense perhaps less than satisfactory) translation of the Hebrew text: it is an independent textual witness and a distinct and important step in the history of revelation, one which brought about this encounter in a way that was decisive for the birth and spread of Christianity. A profound encounter of faith and reason is taking place here, an encounter between genuine enlightenment and religion. From the very heart of Christian faith and, at the same time, the heart of Greek thought now joined to faith, Manuel II was able to say: Not to act “with logos” is contrary to God's nature.


In all honesty, one must observe that in the late Middle Ages we find trends in theology which would sunder this synthesis between the Greek spirit and the Christian spirit. In contrast with the so-called intellectualism of Augustine and Thomas, there arose with Duns Scotus a voluntarism which ultimately led to the claim that we can only know God's voluntas ordinata. Beyond this is the realm of God's freedom, in virtue of which he could have done the opposite of everything he has actually done. This gives rise to positions which clearly approach those of Ibn Hazn and might even lead to the image of a capricious God, who is not even bound to truth and goodness. God's transcendence and otherness are so exalted that our reason, our sense of the true and good, are no longer an authentic mirror of God, whose deepest possibilities remain eternally unattainable and hidden behind his actual decisions. As opposed to this, the faith of the Church has always insisted that between God and us, between his eternal Creator Spirit and our created reason there exists a real analogy, in which unlikeness remains infinitely greater than likeness, yet not to the point of abolishing analogy and its language (cf. Lateran IV). God does not become more divine when we push him away from us in a sheer, impenetrable voluntarism; rather, the truly divine God is the God who has revealed himself as logos and, as logos, has acted and continues to act lovingly on our behalf. Certainly, love transcends knowledge and is thereby capable of perceiving more than thought alone (cf. Eph 3:19); nonetheless it continues to be love of the God who is logos. Consequently, Christian worship is λογικὴ λατρεία - worship in harmony with the eternal Word and with our reason (cf. Rom 12:1).


This inner rapprochement between Biblical faith and Greek philosophical inquiry was an event of decisive importance not only from the standpoint of the history of religions, but also from that of world history – it is an event which concerns us even today. Given this convergence, it is not surprising that Christianity, despite its origins and some significant developments in the East, finally took on its historically decisive character in Europe. We can also express this the other way around: this convergence, with the subsequent addition of the Roman heritage, created Europe and remains the foundation of what can rightly be called Europe.



The thesis that the critically purified Greek heritage forms an integral part of Christian faith has been countered by the call for a dehellenization of Christianity – a call which has more and more dominated theological discussions since the beginning of the modern age. Viewed more closely, three stages can be observed in the programme of dehellenization: although interconnected, they are clearly distinct from one another in their motivations and objectives.


Dehellenization first emerges in connection with the fundamental postulates of the Reformation in the sixteenth century. Looking at the tradition of scholastic theology, the Reformers thought they were confronted with a faith system totally conditioned by philosophy, that is to say an articulation of the faith based on an alien system of thought. As a result, faith no longer appeared as a living historical Word but as one element of an overarching philosophical system. The principle of sola scriptura, on the other hand, sought faith in its pure, primordial form, as originally found in the biblical Word. Metaphysics appeared as a premise derived from another source, from which faith had to be liberated in order to become once more fully itself. When Kant stated that he needed to set thinking aside in order to make room for faith, he carried this programme forward with a radicalism that the Reformers could never have foreseen. He thus anchored faith exclusively in practical reason, denying it access to reality as a whole.


The liberal theology of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries ushered in a second stage in the process of dehellenization, with Adolf von Harnack as its outstanding representative. When I was a student, and in the early years of my teaching, this programme was highly influential in Catholic theology too. It took as its point of departure Pascal’s distinction between the God of the philosophers and the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. In my inaugural lecture at Bonn in 1959, I tried to address the issue. I will not repeat here what I said on that occasion, but I would like to describe at least briefly what was new about this second stage of dehellenization. Harnack’s central idea was to return simply to the man Jesus and to his simple message, underneath the accretions of theology and indeed of hellenization: this simple message was seen as the culmination of the religious development of humanity. Jesus was said to have put an end to worship in favour of morality. In the end he was presented as the father of a humanitarian moral message. The fundamental goal was to bring Christianity back into harmony with modern reason, liberating it, that is to say, from seemingly philosophical and theological elements, such as faith in Christ’s divinity and the triune God. In this sense, historical-critical exegesis of the New Testament restored to theology its place within the university: theology, for Harnack, is something essentially historical and therefore strictly scientific. What it is able to say critically about Jesus is, so to speak, an expression of practical reason and consequently it can take its rightful place within the university. Behind this thinking lies the modern self-limitation of reason, classically expressed in Kant’s “Critiques”, but in the meantime further radicalized by the impact of the natural sciences. This modern concept of reason is based, to put it briefly, on a synthesis between Platonism (Cartesianism) and empiricism, a synthesis confirmed by the success of technology. On the one hand it presupposes the mathematical structure of matter, its intrinsic rationality, which makes it possible to understand how matter works and use it efficiently: this basic premise is, so to speak, the Platonic element in the modern understanding of nature. On the other hand, there is nature’s capacity to be exploited for our purposes, and here only the possibility of verification or falsification through experimentation can yield ultimate certainty. The weight between the two poles can, depending on the circumstances, shift from one side to the other. As strongly positivistic a thinker as J. Monod has declared himself a convinced Platonist/Cartesian.


This gives rise to two principles which are crucial for the issue we have raised. First, only the kind of certainty resulting from the interplay of mathematical and empirical elements can be considered scientific. Anything that would claim to be science must be measured against this criterion. Hence the human sciences, such as history, psychology, sociology and philosophy, attempt to conform themselves to this canon of scientificity. A second point, which is important for our reflections, is that by its very nature this method excludes the question of God, making it appear an unscientific or pre-scientific question. Consequently, we are faced with a reduction of the radius of science and reason, one which needs to be questioned.


We shall return to this problem later. In the meantime, it must be observed that from this standpoint any attempt to maintain theology’s claim to be “scientific” would end up reducing Christianity to a mere fragment of its former self. But we must say more: it is man himself who ends up being reduced, for the specifically human questions about our origin and destiny, the questions raised by religion and ethics, then have no place within the purview of collective reason as defined by “science” and must thus be relegated to the realm of the subjective. The subject then decides, on the basis of his experiences, what he considers tenable in matters of religion, and the subjective “conscience” becomes the sole arbiter of what is ethical. In this way, though, ethics and religion lose their power to create a community and become a completely personal matter. This is a dangerous state of affairs for humanity, as we see from the disturbing pathologies of religion and reason which necessarily erupt when reason is so reduced that questions of religion and ethics no longer concern it. Attempts to construct an ethic from the rules of evolution or from psychology and sociology, end up being simply inadequate.


Before I draw the conclusions to which all this has been leading, I must briefly refer to the third stage of dehellenization, which is now in progress. In the light of our experience with cultural pluralism, it is often said nowadays that the synthesis with Hellenism achieved in the early Church was a preliminary inculturation which ought not to be binding on other cultures. The latter are said to have the right to return to the simple message of the New Testament prior to that inculturation, in order to inculturate it anew in their own particular milieux. This thesis is not only false; it is coarse and lacking in precision. The New Testament was written in Greek and bears the imprint of the Greek spirit, which had already come to maturity as the Old Testament developed. True, there are elements in the evolution of the early Church which do not have to be integrated into all cultures. Nonetheless, the fundamental decisions made about the relationship between faith and the use of human reason are part of the faith itself; they are developments consonant with the nature of faith itself.


And so I come to my conclusion. This attempt, painted with broad strokes, at a critique of modern reason from within has nothing to do with putting the clock back to the time before the Enlightenment and rejecting the insights of the modern age. The positive aspects of modernity are to be acknowledged unreservedly: we are all grateful for the marvellous possibilities that it has opened up for mankind and for the progress in humanity that has been granted to us. The scientific ethos, moreover, is the will to be obedient to the truth, and, as such, it embodies an attitude which reflects one of the basic tenets of Christianity. The intention here is not one of retrenchment or negative criticism, but of broadening our concept of reason and its application. While we rejoice in the new possibilities open to humanity, we also see the dangers arising from these possibilities and we must ask ourselves how we can overcome them. We will succeed in doing so only if reason and faith come together in a new way, if we overcome the self-imposed limitation of reason to the empirically verifiable, and if we once more disclose its vast horizons. In this sense theology rightly belongs in the university and within the wide-ranging dialogue of sciences, not merely as a historical discipline and one of the human sciences, but precisely as theology, as inquiry into the rationality of faith.


Only thus do we become capable of that genuine dialogue of cultures and religions so urgently needed today. In the Western world it is widely held that only positivistic reason and the forms of philosophy based on it are universally valid. Yet the world’s profoundly religious cultures see this exclusion of the divine from the universality of reason as an attack on their most profound convictions. A reason which is deaf to the divine and which relegates religion into the realm of subcultures is incapable of entering into the dialogue of cultures. At the same time, as I have attempted to show, modern scientific reason with its intrinsically Platonic element bears within itself a question which points beyond itself and beyond the possibilities of its methodology. Modern scientific reason quite simply has to accept the rational structure of matter and the correspondence between our spirit and the prevailing rational structures of nature as a given, on which its methodology has to be based. Yet the question why this has to be so is a real question, and one which has to be remanded by the natural sciences to other modes and planes of thought – to philosophy and theology. For philosophy and, albeit in a different way, for theology, listening to the great experiences and insights of the religious traditions of humanity, and those of the Christian faith in particular, is a source of knowledge, and to ignore it would be an unacceptable restriction of our listening and responding. Here I am reminded of something Socrates said to Phaedo. In their earlier conversations, many false philosophical opinions had been raised, and so Socrates says: “It would be easily understandable if someone became so annoyed at all these false notions that for the rest of his life he despised and mocked all talk about being - but in this way he would be deprived of the truth of existence and would suffer a great loss”. The West has long been endangered by this aversion to the questions which underlie its rationality, and can only suffer great harm thereby. The courage to engage the whole breadth of reason, and not the denial of its grandeur – this is the programme with which a theology grounded in Biblical faith enters into the debates of our time. “Not to act reasonably (with logos) is contrary to the nature of God”, said Manuel II, according to his Christian understanding of God, in response to his Persian interlocutor. It is to this great logos, to this breadth of reason, that we invite our partners in the dialogue of cultures. To rediscover it constantly is the great task of the university.

And this is a follow up about the speech from the Vatican on CWNews

Regensburg, Sep. 13 (CWNews.com) - The director of the Vatican press office has urged reporters to notice that a lecture delivered by Pope Benedict XVI (bio - news) on September 12, at the University of Regensburg, was not an attack on Islam.

There are "many different positions" within the Islamic world, observed Father Federico Lombardi, including support for non-violence. When he argued that violence contradicts religious faith, the Vatican spokesman said, the Pontiff was not issuing a blanket condemnation of Muslim beliefs.

The more important message of the Pope's address, Father Lombardi continued, was the plea for an end to the split between faith and reason. He suggested that the Pope was tracing the same arguments put forward by Pope John Paul II (bio - news) in his 1998 encyclical Fides et Ratio (doc), in opposing "the marginalization of faith by modern rationalism."

That same message, Father Lombardi continued, was evident in the Pope's address earlier on Tuesday, during a homily at Mass in Regensburg, when he underlined the "reasonable character of belief." The Pope, he said, was making a "clear and linear" exposition of the Christian understanding of God.

In the speech at the University of Regensburg, the Vatican spokesman said, the Pope "did not want to give a lecture interpreting Islam in a violent sense, but affirming that when there is a violent interpretation of religion, we see a contradiction with God's nature." In discussing the concept of jihad, he said, the Pope was using a rational analysis to criticize the use of faith to incite violence.

Cuidados...
 
Muslims Fume at Pope's Islam Jibe

WORLD CAPITALS — Pope Benedict XVI's criticism of Islam and the Islamic concept of Jihad as unreasonable and against God's nature has sparked furor in the Muslim world on Thursday, September 14, amid calls for the pontiff to retract his remarks.

"These remarks are unacceptable and demonstrate ignorance of the Muslim faith," Mohamed Kanaan, the chief judge of the Supreme Shari`ah Courts in Lebanon, told the Doha-based Al-Jazeera channel.

"The remarks only play into the hands of those seeking to tarnish the image of Islam."

In what some Vatican watchers see as a watershed speech to academics on Tuesday, September 12, Benedict had portrayed Islam as a religion which endorses violence, where faith is "spread by the sword".

Using the words, "Jihad" and "Holy War" in lecture at the University of Regensburg, he quoted criticism of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing be upon him) by a 14th Century Byzantine Christian emperor.

"Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached," Benedict quoted Manuel II.

In Morocco, the daily Aujourd'hui said the pope's remarks have upset a million Muslims around the globe.

"The global outcry over the calamitous cartoons (of Prophet Muhammad) has only just died down and now the pontiff, in all his holiness, is launching an attack against Islam," it said.

Last September, a series of lampooning cartoons of Prophet Muhammad printed by a Danish daily and republished by European newspapers sparked a global outcry.

The daily urged the pope, as political leader of the Roman Catholic Church, to "quickly prove that his ambition is not to spark a war of religions."

Hatred

Mazyek said the Roman Catholic Church, which had violent chapters, should not point a finger at extremist activities in other religions.


Chief judge Kanaan asked Pope Benedict to retract his insulting remarks.

"He must apologize," he told the Doha-based broadcaster.

The remarks have also drawn fire from Turkey's highest religious authority, reported Agence France-Presse (AFP).

"The remarks reflect the hatred in his heart. It is a statement full of enmity and grudge," Ali Bardakoglu, the head of Turkey's religious affairs directorate, told the NTV news channel.

"It is a prejudiced and biased approach," he added.

Bardakoglu said the pope was not welcome in Turkey unless retracting his remarks.

"I do not think any good will come from the visit to the Muslim world of a person who has such ideas about Islam's prophet. He should first of all replace the grudge in his heart with moral values and respect for the other."

Pope Benedict is expected in Turkey on November 28-30 on an invitation from the Turkish government and the Ecumenical Orthodox Patriarchate in Istanbul.

In 2004, the pontiff caused a stir by opposing Turkey's accession into the European Union.

He said Turkey should seek its future in an association of Islamic nations, not with the EU, which has Christian roots.

Bloody History

Ejaz Ahmed, a member of an Italian governmental consultative committee on Islam, also criticized the Vatican pope, reported Italy's ANSA news agency.

"In his speech the pope overlooks the fact that Islam was the cradle of science and that Muslims were the first to translate Greek philosophers before they became part of European history," he said.

"The Muslim world is currently undergoing a deep crisis and any attack from the West can aggravate this crisis," he said.

Aiman Mazyek, the president of Germany's Central Council of Muslims, said the history of the Roman Catholic Church had violent chapters.

"After the bloodstained conversions in South America, the crusades in the Muslim world, the coercion of the Church by Hitler's regime, and even the coining of the phrase 'holy war' by Pope Urban II, I do not think the Church should point a finger at extremist activities in other religions," he told the Sueddeutsche Zeitung newspaper.

Haken al-Mutairi, Secretary General of Kuwait's Umma party asked Pope Benedict to immediately apologize "to the Muslim world for his calumnies against the Prophet Muhammed and Islam".

Mutairi hit out at the pope's "unaccustomed and unprecedented" remarks, and linked the Catholic Church leader's comments to "new Western wars currently under way in the Muslim world in places such as Afghanistan, Iraq and Lebanon".

The pope's statements amounted to "the pursuit of crusades", he told AFP.

"I call on all Arab and Islamic states to recall their ambassadors from the Vatican and expel those from the Vatican until the pope says he is sorry for the wrong done to the Prophet and to Islam, which preaches peace, tolerance, justice and equality."

Mutairi urged Christian and Muslim religious leaders to "spread the values of tolerance and clemency preached by the prophets Jesus and Muhammed".

http://www.islam-online.net/English/News/2006-09/14/04.shtml
 
has he forgotten that Christianity has spread the same way. How else do you think Islam and CHRISTIANITY spread. G-d taught to never conquer and convert anyone. They had to make the choice on there own.

Thank G-d Judaism never taught to convert people in mass like some of our counterparts on earth. Only 14 million Jews on earth, yet we seem to be in the news, winning prizes, creating new things, producing scientific papers, and accomplishing so much. Only 14 million and we truly have accomplished the impossible already.

This is off topic but jews are less in this world because of the following reasons.

1. Holocaust 6 millions jews were killed maybe more
2. People cannot become jew or convert to jewish religion claimed by some jewish scholars
3. Jews have been attacked and killed in almost every single land they lived in.
4. Jewish religion came before islam and christianity when christinaity came many jews had converted to christianity then islam came many jews had converted to islam.
5. Muslims or christians dont convert to Judaism.
6. There are not alot of jewish scholars going around the world teaching about the jewish religion

Therefore the reason there are more muslims and christians because these are the most recent religions. You can never force conversion on anyone because after you leave most likely they will go back to there religion.
 
http://www.nytimes.com/glogin?URI=http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/13/world/europe/13pope.html&OQ=_rQ3D1&OP=3fbf7517Q2FlQ7E0Cl6gar3ggjflfBBJlBXl)1lQ7Eg3d6l053g!0l)1!g!0ERjbd

Pope Assails Secularism, Adding Note on Jihad
By IAN FISHER
Published: September 13, 2006
In a speech, the pope said jihadi violence is contrary to reason and God’s plan.

Read the article if you can...

Kidman
 
I've seen a video of his speech. What he said was: Muhammed brought nothing new to teh world that is good, only bad things such as spreading religion by the sword. (astagfurallah)
Is that offensive to me? Defenitly! To see the most honorable and respectfull man of history slandered in such a way hurts me deeply.
I agree, Steve. That was an offensive and insensitive thing to say. :(
Especially bearing in mind that Christianity has a pretty bloody past itself! :cry:
I wonder what will come out of this ...:?

I agree with this, though:
"God is not pleased by blood - and not acting reasonably is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats."

Peace to you, Steve.
 
Thanks Glo, it's comforting to see that not everybody agrees with him.
May peace be with you to.
 
pope said:
God is not pleased by blood

I don't understand. According to Christianity, is God not pleased -astaghfirullah- with the blood of Jesus (pbuh)?
 
I don't understand. According to Christianity, is God not pleased -astaghfirullah- with the blood of Jesus (pbuh)?
With that correlation, it is easy to understand why you don't understand.
 
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Looking at history it sounds pretty hypocritical of him to accuse Islam of that. But yes, it was insensitive. I'm sure it'll lead to lots of rioting (and maybe even some deaths) by Muslims trying to disprove his comments.
 
Looking at history it sounds pretty hypocritical of him to accuse Islam of that. But yes, it was insensitive. I'm sure it'll lead to lots of rioting (and maybe even some deaths) by Muslims trying to disprove his comments.

Now take it easy. Let's not say such things, just hope for the best, which means no useless killing.

If people would start to kill everyone who has said something bad about Islam or Prophet Muhammed (saas) infront of a crowd, or to other people around him...
All that can be said is, the human population would have derceased drastically.

The way we Muslims best can proove that the Pope is wrong with his statement, is to follow the Prophet's (saas) Sunnah and show a true Muslim's character, inshallah. :)

:w:
 
Looking at history it sounds pretty hypocritical of him to accuse Islam of that. But yes, it was insensitive. I'm sure it'll lead to lots of rioting (and maybe even some deaths) by Muslims trying to disprove his comments.

Now that's what I would call ironic.
 
I don't understand. According to Christianity, is God not pleased -astaghfirullah- with the blood of Jesus (pbuh)?
I don't think that the issue at hand here. :rollseyes

"Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats"

He is talking about people being converted to another faith, and how that should not be done by violent means ... don't you think? :?

Peace.
 
Thanks Glo, it's comforting to see that not everybody agrees with him.
May peace be with you to.
I wouldn't say that I disagree with what the Pope says per se ... but I do in this particular case. :)
 
Looking at history it sounds pretty hypocritical of him to accuse Islam of that. But yes, it was insensitive. I'm sure it'll lead to lots of rioting (and maybe even some deaths) by Muslims trying to disprove his comments.

Interesting comment.

Sadly, I think you do believe it to be true. I hope you have seen enough of us to have some awareness that would not be an action justified by our Beliefs.

Yes, we do have our share of people that tend to use any issue as an excuse to act with violence. But, keep in mind those who act in that manner would do so no matter what religious belief they followed. They act on their own and from their own emotions, not out of love of Allah(swt) and not out of Islamic belief.
 
I think what he is trying to do is paint Christianity as eshewing bloodshed and violence and implying that this is in contrast to Islam. It is a doomed attempt when a violent and blood-drenched human sacrifice is essential to the salvation of the Chrisitan, while for the Muslim, not only are we free from requiring blood for salvation, but plainly and clearly Allah tells us 'There is no compulsion in religion.' This Pope's words are like those of a tortoise trying to tell an eagle how to fly.
 
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