The Tatars

[north_malaysian]

When Woodrow mentioned about the Lipka Tatars in other thread.... suddenly I remembered my university years...


There are Chechens and Tatars in the university, while the Chechens are so determined with their independent state of Chechenistan ... the Tatars seems proud te be called as Russians.

For example, during Ramadhan... the Tatars would set up a stall selling "Russian food".... I mean .... do Tatars really feel that they belongs to Russia?

Russia Federation also sends their Quran Reciter each year to Kuala Lumpur International Koranic Recitation Competition.... so does this mean that Tatars are proud to be Russians?

Why it's different with the Chechens?

 

[Woodrow]

I am primarily familiary with the Lipkas. To be honest there are only a few that I know personaly. But, those that I know, want to return to Lithuania and are not very happy that the Russiana excilled their ancestors to Siberia.

I have a hard time thinking that any Tatar, who has any knowledge of his history, would claim to be Russian.

Thank you for using the proper spelling of Tatar. Most of us in the Western world spell it Tartar, but Tatar is the proper spelling and closer to the pronunciation.

 

[north_malaysian]

I am primarily familiary with the Lipkas. To be honest there are only a few that I know personaly. But, those that I know, want to return to Lithuania and are not very happy that the Russiana excilled their ancestors to Siberia.

I have a hard time thinking that any Tatar, who has any knowledge of his history, would claim to be Russian.

Thank you for using the proper spelling of Tatar. Most of us in the Western world spell it Tartar, but Tatar is the proper spelling and closer to the pronunciation.

Actually, the Tatars in the university proudly call themselves as Russians. Their signboard for the stall says "Russian food"....

Furthermore, never heard of Tatars claiming for independent as the Chechens.....

"Tatar" is the same word we used in Malay Language.....

Can you tell me about the Tatar people's history, who are they actually? People are saying they're Mongol's descendants ... but why they have 'blue' eyes?

 

[north_malaysian]

There is a proverb:

"Scratch a Russian and you'll find a Tatar"

Taken from: http://www.panorama.ru/works/patr/ir/13.html

 

[Woodrow]

It is a mixture. Yes there is Mongol Ancestry and most Tatars do retain some oriental features. However, there was some Indo-European influence also.

the Tatar are divided into the "White Horde" and the "Golden Horde" The white horde although of Mongol Ancestry has more caucasian features. The language is more like Arabic.

Here is a good link on the Lipkas

http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/ntstar/history.htm


Links specificaly about the Lithuanian Lipkas:

http://www.gaumina.lt/totoriai/english/index.html

http://alka.mch.mii.lt/visuomene/totoriai/trumpa.en.htm

As this thread is more historical than Current world affairs I am moving it to the General Forum.

 

[north_malaysian]

It is a mixture. Yes there is Mongol Ancestry and most Tatars do retain some oriental features. However, there was some Indo-European influence also.

the Tatar are divided into the "White Horde" and the "Golden Horde" The white horde although of Mongol Ancestry has more caucasian features. The language is more like Arabic.

Here is a good link on the Lipkas

http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/ntstar/history.htm


Links specificaly about the Lithuanian Lipkas:

http://www.gaumina.lt/totoriai/english/index.html

http://alka.mch.mii.lt/visuomene/totoriai/trumpa.en.htm

As this thread is more historical than Current world affairs I am moving it to the General Forum.

Several questions:

1) Wow... the Lipkas really love their country...Lithuania... but do Lithuanian Christians recognise Lipkas as part of them?

2) From the Polish map.... it shown that the only religious building exist in both towns of Bohoniki and Kruszyniani is a mosque. Does this means that 100% of the population in both town are Muslims?

3) Princess Fraczyska Mirza Lipka Cassels, the Princess of Lipka Tatars at the White Horde at Caledonia ... is she a Muslim?

4) Why Lipka Tatars wont build their mosques with stones?

 

[Woodrow]

Several questions:

1) Wow... the Lipkas really love their country...Lithuania... but do Lithuanian Christians recognise Lipkas as part of them?

Religious freedom of any form is only now returning to Lithuania. It is going to be a growth process for both Christian and Muslim. Historicaly there was much acvceptance of each other.

2) From the Polish map.... it shown that the only religious building exist in both towns of Bohoniki and Kruszyniani is a mosque. Does this means that 100% of the population in both town are Muslims?

I would be more prone to say that they are the only ones practising their religion. Under Communist rule Poland was officialy atheist. Religion is only now returning to some towns.3) Princess Fraczyska Mirza Lipka Cassels, the Princess of Lipka Tatars at the White Horde at Caledonia ... is she a Muslim?

Yes, the name Mirza identifies her as being Muslim

4) Why Lipka Tatars wont build their mosques with stones?

That goes back to the 1400's. It had to do with the treaties between the Tatars and the King at the time. It is probably something that will change as more Lipkas return.



This is quite interesting to me. although I was aware of my Lipkas ancestry, it was only after I reverted to Islam did I become aware of my Islamic ancestry.

 

[starfortress]

Wow this is new to me..

 

[Woodrow]

Historicaly it shows just how far Islam had expanded prior to the Crusades. I think it is worthy to note that the Lipkas were invited into Lithuania and did rise to Nobility status as a choice of the people and not because of any conquest.

If it had not been for Islam, Lithuania might have kept the old Pagan beliefs. Lithuania's history is entwined with the history of the Lipkas.

I now wonder if perhaps Pope John-Paul might have had a bit of Lipkas ancestry as he was from Poland and at one point Poland and Lithuania were one country. John-Paul is remembered as working for Muslim-Catholic dialogue.

 

[north_malaysian]

I now wonder if perhaps Pope John-Paul might have had a bit of Lipkas ancestry as he was from Poland and at one point Poland and Lithuania were one country. John-Paul is remembered as working for Muslim-Catholic dialogue.

Pope JP2 was so popular among Muslims when he kissed the Holy Koran. There are also rumours about him being a crypto-Muslim. He is the first Pope to greet Ramadhan to Saudi King. The first Pope to visit a mosque. He's good!!!

Woodrow, I've heard about Tatars in Finland who defended their country in wars. As Finland is near to the Baltics, are those Finnish Tatars are Lipkas too? I've heard that Finnish Tatars are very successfull in businesses and banking.

 

[Igence]

When Woodrow mentioned about the Lipka Tatars in other thread.... suddenly I remembered my university years...


There are Chechens and Tatars in the university, while the Chechens are so determined with their independent state of Chechenistan ... the Tatars seems proud te be called as Russians.

For example, during Ramadhan... the Tatars would set up a stall selling "Russian food".... I mean .... do Tatars really feel that they belongs to Russia?

Russia Federation also sends their Quran Reciter each year to Kuala Lumpur International Koranic Recitation Competition.... so does this mean that Tatars are proud to be Russians?

Why it's different with the Chechens?

I'm sorry, this is an old thread, but as I found it, I decided to reply.

Yes I am Tatar and I live in Tatarstan, Kazan (Qazan). We are proud to be Tatars and we never say we are Russians, but our citizenship is Russian. We have our own culture, but there are many common features between Tatars and Russians:

1. Most Tatars speak Russian;
2. Most Russians who live in Tatarstan speak Tatar (Tatarça)
3. The appearance of Tatars and Russians has many common features (for example, swarthy Russians with black hair, or blue-eyed tow-head Tatars

Some Tatars may say they proud to be Russians. It means that Tatars are proud that they have they own republic, language and they have managed to save their cutlure and religion in this country (by the Help of God, certainly).
Moreover, Tatars adopted Islam (922 AD) earlier that Russian adopted Christianity, Tatars had great culture and they are proud of their history. And the biggest part of European Russia belonged to Tatars 500 years ago, it was Golden Horde, after Mongols' Invasion, and Bulgarstan before the invasion (also an Islamic state). So we live on our anciet earth, and we are proud we are able to be muslims here. Alhamdulillah!

 

[Woodrow]

As far as Tatars wanting to be identified with Russia. I have not seen that in the little I know of my families history.

 

[snakelegs]

I'm sorry, this is an old thread, but as I found it, I decided to reply.

i'm glad you did - that was interesting! and welcome to LI!

 

[north_malaysian]

I'm sorry, this is an old thread, but as I found it, I decided to reply.

Yes I am Tatar and I live in Tatarstan, Kazan (Qazan). We are proud to be Tatars and we never say we are Russians, but our citizenship is Russian. We have our own culture, but there are many common features between Tatars and Russians:

1. Most Tatars speak Russian;
2. Most Russians who live in Tatarstan speak Tatar (Tatarça)
3. The appearance of Tatars and Russians has many common features (for example, swarthy Russians with black hair, or blue-eyed tow-head Tatars

Some Tatars may say they proud to be Russians. It means that Tatars are proud that they have they own republic, language and they have managed to save their cutlure and religion in this country (by the Help of God, certainly).
Moreover, Tatars adopted Islam (922 AD) earlier that Russian adopted Christianity, Tatars had great culture and they are proud of their history. And the biggest part of European Russia belonged to Tatars 500 years ago, it was Golden Horde, after Mongols' Invasion, and Bulgarstan before the invasion (also an Islamic state). So we live on our anciet earth, and we are proud we are able to be muslims here. Alhamdulillah!

nice info!!!!

 

[Chechen]

When Woodrow mentioned about the Lipka Tatars in other thread.... suddenly I remembered my university years...


There are Chechens and Tatars in the university, while the Chechens are so determined with their independent state of Chechenistan ... the Tatars seems proud te be called as Russians.

For example, during Ramadhan... the Tatars would set up a stall selling "Russian food".... I mean .... do Tatars really feel that they belongs to Russia?

Russia Federation also sends their Quran Reciter each year to Kuala Lumpur International Koranic Recitation Competition.... so does this mean that Tatars are proud to be Russians?

Why it's different with the Chechens?

Cause we just hate Russians and they hate us. We've never wanted to be part of Russia or be considered as Russians.

 

[Igence]

Thank you for your replies, brothers, Jazak Allahu Khairan!

To Chechen: I completely understand you, I respect Imam Shamil who helped all Caucasians to save their freedom, but what can we do now? Yes, actually Tatars always dream of their own land, and it would be a muslim land... But we are in the middle of Russia, unlike Chechen Republic, so we can't dream of the freedom... Once we lost our war and we were defeated... In the beginning of 1990s Tatastan was about to do the same thing as Chechen Republic, but Russian tanks in Mari-El (near Tatarstan) didn't allow us to continue our movement. I remember we used to help Chechens with food and goods, but then we couldn't understand whom we had to help, because now many Chechens had given up... People are tired of war, now they want peace.... as a part of Russia, yes..... And do you know, I think it means that we've lost our Ummah (but Allah knows best)... Because since 1552 AD (or maybe much earlier) Muslims didn't help each other.... The same with Chechen republic... It's very difficult, but I completely understand you, brother! I had the same feelings several years ago, but now I've admitted that the freedom is impossible for us... We have not enough Muslims to help us... But at the same time now we want to create a Russian Empire, where muslims would feel like at home, and muslims would have rights to do what they must do as muslims!

Wassalam!

 

[Woodrow]

Cause we just hate Russians and they hate us. We've never wanted to be part of Russia or be considered as Russians.

Those are pretty much the sentiments I heard from my ancestors. Although my Grandfather served Tsar Nicholas in the Russian Army as a Cavalry Officer. That would have been in about 1895. Prior to Russia taking over Lithuania.

The Tatars have a long reputation of being skilled horsemen.

 

[north_malaysian]

Thank you for your replies, brothers, Jazak Allahu Khairan!

To Chechen: I completely understand you, I respect Imam Shamil who helped all Caucasians to save their freedom, but what can we do now? Yes, actually Tatars always dream of their own land, and it would be a muslim land... But we are in the middle of Russia, unlike Chechen Republic, so we can't dream of the freedom... Once we lost our war and we were defeated... In the beginning of 1990s Tatastan was about to do the same thing as Chechen Republic, but Russian tanks in Mari-El (near Tatarstan) didn't allow us to continue our movement. I remember we used to help Chechens with food and goods, but then we couldn't understand whom we had to help, because now many Chechens had given up... People are tired of war, now they want peace.... as a part of Russia, yes..... And do you know, I think it means that we've lost our Ummah (but Allah knows best)... Because since 1552 AD (or maybe much earlier) Muslims didn't help each other.... The same with Chechen republic... It's very difficult, but I completely understand you, brother! I had the same feelings several years ago, but now I've admitted that the freedom is impossible for us... We have not enough Muslims to help us... But at the same time now we want to create a Russian Empire, where muslims would feel like at home, and muslims would have rights to do what they must do as muslims!

Wassalam!

Now, I begun to understand why the Tatar and Chechen students in Malaysia are different.... thanks...

 

[north_malaysian]

Those are pretty much the sentiments I heard from my ancestors. Although my Grandfather served Tsar Nicholas in the Russian Army as a Cavalry Officer. That would have been in about 1895. Prior to Russia taking over Lithuania.

The Tatars have a long reputation of being skilled horsemen.

you and your grandfather must be very skillful in military service then...:happy:

 

[Woodrow]

you and your grandfather must be very skillful in military service then...:happy:

My Grandfather had a strong military bearing. I was a bit of a radical. Back in my AF days us sky jockeys were not very well noted for following Military protocol. It was only on very rare occasions I ever even wore a uniform. I almost got court martialed over that, but that is another story.

Getting back to the Tatars. I beleive most including even those of us who are only part Tatar would love to seen an independent Tatar Nation in either the Baltic refion or Southern Russia. Seperate from the Russians, but on peaceful terms with them.

Language wise there is a difference between the Tatars of Tatarstan and the Lipkas of the Baltic regions, but the ancient heritage is the same. I believe the Lipkas used the Arabic alphabet longer then the people of Tatarstan did if the people of Tatarstan ever did use it. If I Recall Lithuania used the Arabic Alphabet from the 1200s till the mid 1700s and then briefly used the Roman alphabet finaly adopting the Cyrillic (Russian) Alphabet, which most Lithuanians still use.