Prove that the Qur'an is NOT the word of God.

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:sl:

Since br. Ansar is not here, I guess I'll have to take his place and use his own article to reconcile the so-called "contradictions" :D




Here's the link:

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/839-alleged-contradictions-quran.html

:W:
:sl:
Don't even bother... every few months you get one of those... if he wanted to learn he would use the search option read thoroughly then question... but it is clear that is not his intention...I consider it a sincere waste of time to reply...........
:w:
 
This is very different from the Bible which seems to be very interested in recounting history, and seems very difficult to attribute some of its tales to God (see the language used in Ezekiel 23).

What specifically is it about Ezekiel 23 that you find troublesome?
 
I think

20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.
 
I think

20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Verse 4 makes it clear that this is an allegorical passage about Israel. The Bible indicates that Israel was judged for turning her back on God, and ultimately was carried into exile. In fact, God warned Israel through Moses in Deuteronomy 28 of the cost of disobedience years before it happened.
 
Verse 4 makes it clear that this is an allegorical passage about Israel. The Bible indicates that Israel was judged for turning her back on God, and ultimately was carried into exile. In fact, God warned Israel through Moses in Deuteronomy 28 of the cost of disobedience years before it happened.

Okey, so those werent rael women, yet G-d had to explain it to us that these metaphorical women went after men with, u know, size of donkeys and the rest of horse, but in reality this was Israel prostituting itself with such figures?
 
Okey, so those werent rael women, yet G-d had to explain it to us that these metaphorical women went after men with, u know, size of donkeys and the rest of horse, but in reality this was Israel prostituting itself with such figures?

While the language is not what I would have chosen, I do not claim to be a prophet. If God told Ezekiel to relay the message in those words, he was bound to do it. God frequently referred to idolotry as adultery with other gods. This makes sense as we are to have an intimate personal relationship with one God, just as we are to have and intimitate personal relationship with one spouse. As to the beastiality aspect of this passage, if that is what you are inferring, I'm sure it happened just as it happens today, but I don't think this is the meaning of the passage.

Take Jeremiah:

Jer 5:8 They were like well-fed lusty stallions; Every one neighed after his neighbor's wife. 9 Shall I not punish them for these things?" says the LORD.
"And shall I not avenge Myself on such a nation as this?
 
While the language is not what I would have chosen, I do not claim to be a prophet. If God told Ezekiel to relay the message in those words, he was bound to do it. God frequently referred to idolotry as adultery with other gods. This makes sense as we are to have an intimate personal relationship with one God, just as we are to have and intimitate personal relationship with one spouse. As to the beastiality aspect of this passage, if that is what you are inferring, I'm sure it happened just as it happens today, but I don't think this is the meaning of the passage.

Take Jeremiah:

Jer 5:8 They were like well-fed lusty stallions; Every one neighed after his neighbor's wife. 9 Shall I not punish them for these things?" says the LORD.
"And shall I not avenge Myself on such a nation as this?

Okey dokes, well I think thats the passage the other poster had a problem with maybe you can ask why she/he had a problem. :) thank you for your patience.
 
Why would God warn Israel? when Israel was (Jacob) and God loved him........He was by all standards a good man and a prophet....
 
it's from the hadith though.. and i put qu'ran because i was looking for another verse in the qu'ran that talked about it, but i couldn't find it so i put that.
Good grief, I strongly advise you to refrain from making such blunders in the future as to confuse unauthenticated exegetical texts for qur'anic verses. It is only reflects negatively on yourself, indicating that you will go to whatever lengths to try to copy attacks againts another religion, even if you don't have the slightest clue as to what's being discussed or how reliable the sources are. Such an attitude is clearly not conducive to learning and fostering understanding.
and please do not get all rude and offensive. i know it hurts for people to critisize your religion, but try to keep an open mind!
Actually it doesn't hurt me at all but it does hurt you. I have already been so heavily involved in examining and debunking anti-islamic allegations that I have not heard a new allegation for years. I am willing to entertain any criticism one has against Islam so long as we can maintain two academic standards: objectivity and civility. So far no one has been able to meet my challenge to bring a viable allegation.Read through this thread, read through the forum. You will find hundreds if not thosuands of allegations debunked againm and again.

But the pinnacle of hypocrisy is for you to bluster on being open-minded as a prelude to pasting a list of allegations on Qur'anic contradictions! As soon as someone pastes such a list, you know they are not interested in answers or they would have raised the issues one at a time to facilitate the responses from their opponent.
and also, here's a contradiction within the qu'ran..
Maybe you should know that I've written over fifty articles debunking alleged internal contradictions in the Qur'an. I have already heard, entertained, analysed and refuted EVERY SINGLE one of the allegations you raised. Watch.
which was built first, heaven or earth according to the qu'ran?
Meet my refutation:
The allegation is as follows:

Heavens or Earth? Which was created first? First earth and then heaven [2:29], heaven and after that earth [79:27-30].

Verses in question:
2:29 It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; Thumma (Then/Moreover) His design comprehended the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge.
And
79:27-30. What! Are ye the more difficult to create or the heaven (above)? ((Allah)) hath constructed it:On high hath He raised its canopy, and He hath equally ordered it. Its night doth He endow with darkness, and its splendour doth He bring out (with light). And the earth, moreover, hath He extended (to a wide expanse)
1. At first sight, it may seem as though these verses contradict because 2:29 mentions the earth before the heavens, while in 79:27-21, the situation is reversed. However, on closer inspection, we discover some significant differences:
A) 2:29 mentions the development of the heavens into seven layers, not their initial creation which is described in 79:27-31.
B) 2:29 describes the creation of the earth and its features while 79:27-31 only descibres the spreading of the earth
Thus, based on the two verses we know two things:
1. The creation of the earth preceded the formation of the heavens into seven layers
2. The creation of the heavens preceded the 'spreading' of the earth.
And a third point is logically concluded from the above:
3. The creation of the heavens preceded their formation into seven layers
However, it is not know from the verses whether the creation of the heavens preceded the creation of the earth or vice versa, or whether they occured simultaneously. Some Qur'anic commentators took one view while others took another. What we do know is that the heavens and the earth were created and then subsequently the earth was spread and the heavens formed into seven layers. This interpretation is supported by the classical commentaries of the Qur'an. As Imaam Abu Abdullah Al-Qurtubi (d. 1273CE) states in his monumental Al-Jaami` le Ahkaam al-Qur'an when giving his opinion on the Qur'anic description:
I believe that what Qatada said is sound Allah willing: that Allah first created the smoke of heaven and then created the earth and directed Himself to heaven, which was smoke and [He] arranged it and then He smoothed out the earth. (Tafsir Al-Qurtubi Classical Commentary of the Holy Qur'an, Dar Al-Taqwa Ltd. 2003, vol. 1, p.200, emphasis added)
Imaam Ibn Kathir Ad-Damishqi (d. 1372CE) also distinguishes between the different stages in his renowned Tafsir Al-Qur'an Al-Azim, while presenting a slightly different view:
It already has been mentioned previously in [the Tafsir of] Surat Ha Mim As-Sajdah that the earth was created before the heaven was created, but it was only spread out after the creation of the heaven. This means that He brought out what was in it with a forceful action. This is the meaning of what was said by Ibn Abbas and others, and it was the explanation preferred by Ibn Jarir [At-Tabari (d. 923CE)] (fn. At-Tabari 24:208). (Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Abridged, Darussalam Publishers &  Distributors, 2000, vol. 10, p. 350, emphasis added)
Thus, the commentators are agreed that the difference in verse 2:29 and verses 79:27-31 relates to the different stages in the creation of the heavens and the earth, with the earth's 'spreading' occurring after the creation of the heavens and the development of the heavens occurring after the creation of the earth. The commentators only differ regarding the creation of the earth preceding the creation of the heavens, or vice versa, or if they were both created simultaneously.

Scientific research describes the creation and formation of the earth in the following stages:
Differentiation in the first few 100's of millions of years led to the formation of the core and the mantle and a crust, and initiated the escape of gases from the moving interior that eventually led to the formation of the atmosphere and oceans.
The earliest Earth was probably an unsorted conglomeration, mostly of silicon compounds, iron and magnesium oxides, and smaller amounts of all the natural elements. It became increasingly hotter as the protoplanet grew.
...After loss of the hydrogen, helium and other hydrogen-containing gases from early Earth due to the Sun's radiation, primitive Earth was devoid of an atmosphere. The first atmosphere was formed by outgassing of gases trapped in the interior of the early Earth, which still goes on today in volcanoes.
For the Early Earth, extreme volcanism occurred during differentiation, when massive heating and fluid-like motion in the mantle occurred. It is likely that the bulk of the atmosphere was derived from degassing early in the Earth's history.
...Lava flowing from the partially molten interior spread over the surface and solidified to form a thin crust. This crust would have melted and solidified repeatedly, with the lighter compounds moving to the surface. This is called differentiation. Weathering by rainfall broke up and altered the rocks. The end result of these processes was a continental land mass, which would have grown over time. The most popular theory limits the growth of continents to the first two billion years of the Earth.
(SOURCE)
The above description informs us that the earth was initially one mass and through differentiation and volcanic out-gassing, the early atmosphere formed. Then, cooling of the earth resulted in the formation of land mass.
These descriptions concur with the Qur'anic desciption that the earth (2:29) and the heaven (79:27) were created and were originally one mass and then seperated (verse 21:30), the heavens were then developed into seven layers (verse 2:29) and the earth's crust was later spread out (79:30). The last description may be a reference to the cooling of the earth's crust, or it may be a reference to continental drift.
Thus, we find that the Qur'an does not contradict itself here, but instead contains accurate details regarding the formation of the earth in the stages.

2. According to an alternative interpretation, verse 2:29 is rendered as follows:
He is the One who created for you all that's inside earth (Matter), then turned to the sky and perfected seven universes therein, and He is fully aware of all things.
Therefore, verse 2:29 is taken to refer to the creation of the universe and it is not the creation of the earth being described here, but rather what is in the earth, or matter. And verse 79:30 is referring to the spreading of the earth, which has been defined before.

3. A third explanation argues on the understanding of thumma, which does not always indicate sequential order. The meaning of Thumma is explained very well by Moiz Amjad in his article entitled The Meaning of "Thumma" & "Yawm". Therefore, when verse 2:29 says that Allah created the earth and thumma He turned to the heavens, this could also be read as "Furthermore He turned to the heavens" which does not necessarily imply that the creation of the heavens is after the creation of earth. Critics argue that when it says God turned towards the heaven, this implies a sequential act. But this is not entirely true, as God could have turned to the heaven at any point in the past, not necessarily after the creation of the heavens. This point is emphasized in the classical tafsirs as well. Imaam Qurtubi writes:
In His words "then directed", the word "then" is simply a narrative aid and does not imply any time sequence in the matetrs referred to. (Tafsir Al-Qurtubi Classical Commentary of the Holy Qur'an, Dar Al-Taqwa Ltd. 2003, vol. 1, p.199)
Similarly, Imaam Ibn Kathir writes:
It is said that "Then" in the Ayah (2:29) relates only to the order of reciting the information being given, it does not relate to the order that the events being mentioned took place, this was reported from Ibn 'Abbas by 'Ali bin Abi Talhah. (fn. At-Tabari 1:437). (Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Abridged,  Darussalam Publishers & Distributors, 2000, vol. 1, p. 180)
Thus, this explanation is not in conflict with the traditional understanding of the earier Muslims.
From the above points, it should be clear that these verses do not in any way constitute a contradiction.

Let's see how open-minded you are; here are the links to the other articles:Regards
 
Mash'Allah, I was going to say something like this, wel if I had the knowledge lol
 
How does quoting the Quran prove it is the word of God? I do not mean that in a hostile way.

No quotes please, just answers.
 
Hi, :)

How does quoting the Quran prove it is the word of God? I do not mean that in a hostile way.

No quotes please, just answers.

People might quote the Qu'ran alongside an arguement, for example someone says "The QU'ran has accurate scientific statements, look..." And then the person quotes the Qu'ran, is that wrong?
 
Yes, but quotes, selectively chosen, can be used to stifle debate.

What I want to know is the principal reasoning behind presenting a religious book as an absolute truth, when it cannot be conclusively proven?
 
Yes, but quotes, selectively chosen, can be used to stifle debate.

What I want to know is the principal reasoning behind presenting a religious book as an absolute truth, when it cannot be conclusively proven?

Greetings
I think you'd have to read any book before concluding whether or not it is an absolute truth?
How would you know if anything written in Robbins text book of pathological disease is correct, unless you read it and compare to real pathological cases and slides?
How would you know for instance that when the Quran addresses a bee worker in the female form -- that it is in fact female, unless you investigate with some research-- a fact might I add that wasn't even known in Shakespearean time ... let alone the time of prophet Mohammed (PBUH)-- that is one of many examples that are addressed in Dr. Miller's book.
So I think to answer your question-- You'd have to read the book.....
peace!
 
The ancient Greeks also discovered a great many things about geometry, and other sciences.

Does that mean the pantheon which inspired their religion was absolutely correct?
 
Greetings
Is that a rhetorical question? I don't see what Geometry has to do with ancient temples or pagan rituals?....... if you can make the connection for me I'd appreciate it.
The Quran isn't a book of science... It is a book of revelations (scriptures)--- and addresses all facets of life the after life -- including those for man to reflect on creation and his surroundings.......
Peace
 
Well, geometry helped build the temples, surely :okay:

It is interesting that you say the Quran isn't a book of science, but primarily a scripture - that is true isn't it? What do other Muslims think about this?
 
Well, geometry helped build the temples, surely :okay:

It is interesting that you say the Quran isn't a book of science, but primarily a scripture - that is true isn't it? What do other Muslims think about this?
Greetings
well, I can't speak for all Muslims... but I am sure they concur!
peace!
 

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