A Religion of Terror?

[Umar001]

Hi, Gary

There seems to be some very specific details though about the quran teaching that it is ok to decieve nonmuslims in order to gain the advantage.

Please show me, where we are allowed to lie to non muslims in every day things in order to gain advantage.

 

[GARY]

Hi, Gary



Please show me, where we are allowed to lie to non muslims in every day things in order to gain advantage.

The wording of your request is interesting. First, in the absence of a denial, I must assume that you agree on some issues at least, it is allowed. Second, these things always seem to be open to interpretation. One muslim tells me it is only in instances of this, while another will say "no, it also includes that".

Anyway, you are more aware I am sure, of the verses in the quran that talk about this. And I am still slow at finding things in the quran. But if you are serious, I will find the verses in question, if you really want me point them out for you.

 

[Umar001]

Hi Gary,

The wording of your request is interesting. First, in the absence of a denial, I must assume that you agree on some issues at least, it is allowed. Second, these things always seem to be open to interpretation. One muslim tells me it is only in instances of this, while another will say "no, it also includes that".

Anyway, you are more aware I am sure, of the verses in the quran that talk about this. And I am still slow at finding things in the quran. But if you are serious, I will find the verses in question, if you really want me point them out for you.

I didn't take a stance of whether I agree or disagree, I'm just curious as to what verses you meant so that I may take a look at them and read about things, the interpretation thing, well thats something that people can discuss after seeing these verses, or maybe you can open a thread, askin why such differences happen, why some people say you have to raed about this bit in the background and what verses does it aplpy to, so that you may gain better understanding.

Also, I am a learner, a new muslim so am afraid I might not have verses at my fingertips, anyhow, I would be happy to see them when you find them, a word of advise, when you state things, try and have the bak up ready because Islam and Muslims are strict on those things. Anyhow, as for me, take your time

Eesa.

 

[GARY]

Hi Gary,


I didn't take a stance of whether I agree or disagree, I'm just curious as to what verses you meant so that I may take a look at them and read about things, the interpretation thing, well thats something that people can discuss after seeing these verses, or maybe you can open a thread, askin why such differences happen, why some people say you have to raed about this bit in the background and what verses does it aplpy to, so that you may gain better understanding.

Also, I am a learner, a new muslim so am afraid I might not have verses at my fingertips, anyhow, I would be happy to see them when you find them, a word of advise, when you state things, try and have the bak up ready because Islam and Muslims are strict on those things. Anyhow, as for me, take your time

Eesa.

I'll dig 'em out. I have to go for a bit (someone in my non-internet real-world is calling me right now).

 

[thirdwatch512]

Hi thirdwatch.


Also, if you believe God punished the people of Lot (peace be upon him.) then realise that you don't have the same authority as God, and you should also not like that act.


And no, islaam is a perfect religion. People may try to distort it, but that will never happen because Allaah Almighty has perfected this religion and chosen to preserve it till the day of judgement.



Peace.

you had quoted verses from the old testament. only sorry sister, but christians don't use the laws of the old testament. so your case is invalid lol. plus i don't see the significans in slamming down other religions to make yours seem not bad or something.

 

[جوري]

I'll dig 'em out. I have to go for a bit (someone in my non-internet real-world is calling me right now).

Greetings Gary
I am eagerly awaiting those verses as well... so please do hurry back with them....... it is good to back such a heavy claim with evidence rather than leave it open and dancing verbally around it!
peace!

 

[Rou]

Actually I don't disagree with parts of your statement. A man fighting against occupying forces is not what I would define as a terrorist. A man detonating a car bomb in an Iraqi market, or fire bombing an Afghan school is a terrorist. The problem is not whether or not Islam supports this (assuming it does not), but that some muslims do.

that makes no sense? to be a muslim you have to follow islam? so.....??

and again to fire bomb innocents if that is you intent is not islamic therefore not to be blamed on the religon?

i have heard of many small groups of men in america who have raped women should we blame that on the religon!? that would make no sense?

 

[Rou]

There seems to be some very specific details though about the quran teaching that it is ok to decieve nonmuslims in order to gain the advantage.

It does not state to deceive unbeleivers expect in war against evil doers...

as a strategy of war not a tool of misconception nor does it state anywhere to lie to unbeleivers about islam that is against all that is islamic...

 

[Umar001]

Hi, and Hope you are well,

I will hopefully just insert my view, not to take over from my Brother Fi_sabililah but rather to just put my input, and when he comes back he may choose to put his own. You replied,

you had quoted verses from the old testament. only sorry sister, but christians don't use the laws of the old testament. so your case is invalid lol. plus i don't see the significans in slamming down other religions to make yours seem not bad or something.

Fi_Sabilillah, was replying to your statement in which you said:

I don't think islam is a religion of terror, but i do think that killing gays like some muslims want is just disgusting. and killing apostales is bad. and killing thieves is bad. yes, they may be "sins" but to kill them for it? WOW. i don't see why apostales and gays should be punished, and thieves just need a little rehab.. but not death!

otherwise then the punishments of shar'iah, islam isn't all that bad. it could use a reform [like reform judaism] and i'm sure that will happen sooner or later.

The point of Brother Fi_Sabilillah's post was to show you taht the thing you claimed to be 'disgusting' and 'bad' are actually, also found in a book alot of Christians tend to see as Holy or a such, a book which has captured the words of G-d of previous.

Fi_Sabilillah, I think, and I am positive that you, as you claimed, "but christians don't use the laws of the old testament" do not follow such laws, but to label the punishments in Islam for homosexuality and 'conversion' as 'bad' and 'disgusting' while those same punishments are found on the pages of a book you claim has succesfully captured the Words of G-d is quite hypocritical. I ask you, although you don't follow the laws now, for you claim to be 'under grace' do you believe that when G-d in the Old Testament, provided those laws, that G-d had therefore, instructed His people to act in a bad, and disguisting manner?

That is the whole raeson, I think behind the posting of those verses.

Also, you stated:

plus i don't see the significans in slamming down other religions to make yours seem not bad or something.

Rather, it is not the slamming of other religions that is the purpose, the only reason, I would use the bible in this scenario is because you as a christian hold that to be a truthful account of G-d throught history and G-d's message to us, thus if I bring you an act or commandent which you condemn in Islam, and show it to you in on the pages of your Scripture, it would cause you to rethink.

You see, Islam is able to stand on it's own 'two feet' it does not need to have anything else to be compared against, but rather, for the sake of simplicity, since you are a christian, it was easier to bring a paralel between the religions.

I hope that is clear, if not please escuse me and point me to my mistakes

And I hope Brother Fi_Sabilillah continous to contribute to this beautiful thread, well in my opinion.

Peace be upon Jesus son of Mary, and may he be immune from any lies attributed to him.

Eesa.

 

[GARY]

It does not state to deceive unbeleivers expect in war against evil doers...

as a strategy of war not a tool of misconception nor does it state anywhere to lie to unbeleivers about islam that is against all that is islamic...

Right, and the interpretation issue comes into play right there. Many muslims interpret daily life (especially after 9-11) as being at war. So in daily life it is ok to smile and pretend to be friends, because it is war. Telling lies to the enemy is ok. That is of course, assuming that this whole "waiting to attack" scenario is true. As stated before, we as nonmuslims have no way to know for sure. And it is not unlikely that at least some are doing this. We have seen it already in past attacks.

 

[Rou]

Right, and the interpretation issue comes into play right there. Many muslims interpret daily life (especially after 9-11) as being at war. So in daily life it is ok to smile and pretend to be friends, because it is war. Telling lies to the enemy is ok. That is of course, assuming that this whole "waiting to attack" scenario is true. As stated before, we as nonmuslims have no way to know for sure. And it is not unlikely that at least some are doing this. We have seen it already in past attacks.

have you now? care to state?

and second no the type of lying YOU are reffering to is not advocated in the quran you may bring what vereses you will i will clairfy them for you but you are incorrect in your thought on this matter

 

[GARY]

have you now? care to state?

and second no the type of lying YOU are reffering to is not advocated in the quran you may bring what vereses you will i will clairfy them for you but you are incorrect in your thought on this matter

Wouldn't that be an exercise in futility? I have had these discussions before, and you could be lying, as part of the deception already mentioned. You could present me with very convincing evidence, but it may be just that you are very good at the deception. I have no way of knowing.

 

[Rou]

Wouldn't that be an exercise in futility? I have had these discussions before, and you could be lying, as part of the deception already mentioned. You could present me with very convincing evidence, but it may be just that you are very good at the deception. I have no way of knowing.

HAHAH :giggling:

oh my g-d whatever bye...

(uhmm just a statment before i go lol you know when you think people are lying about there facts you have two choices? research or just ignore no need to be afraid lo!?)

Ps "Couldnt find the verse's huh?" :rollseyes

 

[- Qatada -]

Gary, you say that us muslims can use deception. If that's true, you're supposed to backup your claim with evidence from authentic islamic sources.


Second - if you think that we're the ones who are using deception, realise that people who don't use religion to direct them in their life - they can easily use deception too. They may use it even more than someone from a faithgroup because these people don't have a system to govern their way of life as a whole.

Therefore that argument is weak, and the same finger can be pointed at anyone.



Peace.

 

[GARY]

HAHAH :giggling:

oh my g-d whatever bye...

(uhmm just a statment before i go lol you know when you think people are lying about there facts you have two choices? research or just ignore no need to be afraid lo!?)

Ps "Couldnt find the verse's huh?" :rollseyes

Afraid? No, not really. I have nothing to fear even if it is true.

Ps "Couldnt find the verse's huh?" :rollseyes

No, I didn't bother to look. It just is not important to me.

 

[GARY]

Gary, you say that us muslims can use deception. If that's true, you're supposed to backup your claim with evidence from authentic islamic sources.


Second - if you think that we're the ones who are using deception, realise that people who don't use religion to direct them in their life - they can easily use deception too. They may use it even more than someone from a faithgroup because these people don't have a system to govern their way of life as a whole.

Therefore that argument is weak, and the same finger can be pointed at anyone.


Peace.

I would not be very useful to stumble through the quran finding verses that you are already aware of, just so you can interprete them in a politically correct manner, while I point out the other way to interpret the same verse. It is not like I am making you aware of something for the first time. You are fully aware I am sure that there is a level of mistrust/paranoia that exists in the nonmuslim world. I merely stated that it exists, and have no interest in proving whether it is true or not, I simply am not concerned. True or not, I have nothing to fear. I just don't care.
As for your point about other people using deception, I agree. I never stated that others don't decieve. But you are comparing to those without religion.
As members of a faith, you are supposed to try to stay on higher moral ground. To attempt to justify things by comparing to them is in itself a weak point.

 

[جوري]

No... none of us who read the Quran daily in the mother tongue are aware of such a verse or verses... so please make an honest effort to show us the verse(s)... again instead of dancing around it... can't build high towers without foundation or pillars... and by the same token you can't make an argument on a hypothetical verse.... So I challenge you to find it! and I will offer every already out there translation for it links included and nothing of my own words, or anything in the way of political correctness!
Peace

 

[- Qatada -]

I think what you're referring to is the idea of deception in the context of fighting against the enemy in battle. Muslims are allowed to use deception then, and i don't know of any other circumstances. If you think i'm lying to you, then that's upto you because i can simply say the same.

I can compare this idea of deception (in the battlefield) to how non muslims are, because combat is done by both sides. And if one is honest to the enemy - then that can bring loss and put the muslims in danger. Therefore it is permissible within them circumstances.



Muslims have high morals compared to any other faith, and these morals were introduced over 1420 years ago, yet these are still more advanced than the immorality we see in todays society.

Justifying things by comparing is done to show the contrast between X and Y, it explains how one is better than the other, and it explains its benefits compared to the others disadvantages.



It's easy to say that a certain religion says so and so, then blaming that party without introducing evidence in the first place. Any sane person will ask you for evidence for your claim, so please try doing that next time insha'Allaah.



Allaah Almighty know's best.



Peace.

 

[GARY]

I think what you're referring to is the idea of deception in the context of fighting against the enemy in battle. Muslims are allowed to use deception then, and i don't know of any other circumstances. If you think i'm lying to you, then that's upto you because i can simply say the same.

I don't actually think anyone is lying to me. I simply acknowledge the possibility. I am not really concerned one way or the other. And yes, you are right. I could also be lying to you. I could be setting you up right now (see the black van parked out on the street?). It is possible. What do you think?

Muslims have high morals compared to any other faith,

Wrong. The moral code of muslims is no higher than others. This time you are making the claim, so the burden of proof is on you.

True, these days it seems that many from other faiths are losing their morality, but that is a personal choice, and they are just more open about it than muslims. Muslims just hide it more.

Example: A few years ago, I lived in a different part of the world, and worked at a factory. At this factory, the workforce was divided about equally between muslims and others. I had the opportunity to get to know many muslims. I met some really wonderful people, and some real jerks (I am sure one guy really was a terrorist).

What I found interesting was the atmosphere of oppression that they placed on each other. When they were together they behaved much differently then when I was alone with them.

Some would speak of lustful things and pornography, but say "don't tell the others". Some would eat food with me that they were not allowed to eat, "don't tell the others." Some would drink beer and other alcohol, "don't tell the others".

I did not tell the others. But it was so silly, each one was doing things that they didn't want the others to know about. If they were not living in this oppressive manner and were just honest, they would realize that they were all really quite the same. Nobody is perfect. We all sin.

Anyway, so no. Muslims do not have higher morals. They just hide things more.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Afraid? No, not really. I have nothing to fear even if it is true.

No, I didn't bother to look. It just is not important to me.

In other words...ignorance :giggling:
Don't say things when u cant back it up. If you chose to, bring evidence, not a bunch of rambling words without base.