“They made cuts in my ****”

[Rou]

In response to Curaezipirid, torture never has and never will be a "the most expedient" method to get information. If someone is being tortured they will tell you anything you want to hear, and the vast majority of that information is useless.
As for the rest of the post, I would hope that we all agree that torture is bad. I just don't find this man's story credible.

? thats the point US needed results and there are many diffrent cases that are unrelated to eachother who have stated they were mentaly and physicaly abused to sign papers stating they were alqaeda..

they werent intrested in the truth its all about politcal results about how many terrorists had been captured...

and how many media flurries could be created...

im suprised many people ask such questions mainly as the documented cases are far spread watch the tipton three "road to guantanamo" and also search many who have returned from guntanamo as they were innocents and what they were put through..

there will always be excuses to why they were tortured or arrested but look at the wide array of cases and what they were put through and what they were asked to do.

A link to a trailer -

http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?p...om/video/search?p=road+to+guantanamo&ei=UTF-8

 

[Keltoi]

? thats the point US needed results and there are many diffrent cases that are unrelated to eachother who have stated they were mentaly and physicaly abused to sign papers stating they were alqaeda..

they werent intrested in the truth its all about politcal results about how many terrorists had been captured...

and how many media flurries could be created...

im suprised many people ask such questions mainly as the documented cases are far spread watch the tipton three "road to guantanamo" and also search many who have returned from guntanamo as they were innocents and what they were put through..

there will always be excuses to why they were tortured or arrested but look at the wide array of cases and what they were put through and what they were asked to do.

A link to a trailer -

http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?p...om/video/search?p=road+to+guantanamo&ei=UTF-8

All about political results? I might agree with you if capturing these terrorists had turned out to be good politically for the Bush administration, and it hasn't been. The best result politically would have been to take no prisoners, but that would have been bad for PR. Professional military officers do not involve themselves in torture as a rule because it has direct impact on the conduct of other nations in a time of war. The U.S. military doesn't want their captured POW's being tortured, and to maintain that high ground torture is not condoned. Waterboarding and psychological methods are used quite frequently, but cutting and beating is not an American practice.

 

[Rou]

All about political results? I might agree with you if capturing these terrorists had turned out to be good politically for the Bush administration, and it hasn't been. The best result politically would have been to take no prisoners, but that would have been bad for PR. Professional military officers do not involve themselves in torture as a rule because it has direct impact on the conduct of other nations in a time of war. The U.S. military doesn't want their captured POW's being tortured, and to maintain that high ground torture is not condoned. Waterboarding and psychological methods are used quite frequently, but cutting and beating is not an American practice.

capturing a terrorist would be bad for bush?? hows that? if the person was a terrorist and has admitted to it then that would be good and would show result its when he captures people and they get off free that is bad for him..

cutting and beating is not american practice???? lol

you seriously need to do you research before stating such things...

americans do far worse....

and beatings for those trying to pray is even worse yet it happens this has been witnessed by many on diffrent accounts... i mean seriously how can anyone state that the american army does not beat its POWS?

look at vietnam history and guantanamo present plus abu ghraib...

if this were true then what is being stated is that the eletricuit people but dont beat them?? where is the logic??

let us not be naive...

 

[Keltoi]

capturing a terrorist would be bad for bush?? hows that? if the person was a terrorist and has admitted to it then that would be good and would show result its when he captures people and they get off free that is bad for him..

cutting and beating is not american practice???? lol

you seriously need to do you research before stating such things...

americans do far worse....

and beatings for those trying to pray is even worse yet it happens this has been witnessed by many on diffrent accounts... i mean seriously how can anyone state that the american army does not beat its POWS?

look at vietnam history and guantanamo present plus abu ghraib...

if this were true then what is being stated is that the eletricuit people but dont beat them?? where is the logic??

let us not be naive...

First off, taking as many prisoners as the military did creates a major problem. These aren't uniformed military personel, they are terrorists and extremists. Many of these people are thought to possess valuable information, so aggressive interrogation techniques are used. As I mentioned earlier, the most common techniques are waterboarding and various forms of pyschological extremes. Cutting, breaking bones, or inflicting pain for pain's sake is not a U.S. practice, no matter how many "lol" you post. There are always going to be incidents in war that go against those principles, but the vast majority of U.S. military personel would never torture a prisoner.

As for these so-called "accounts" by former detainees, I hope you understand that Al-Qaeda members and Jihadists know that PR is the best weapon to use against the U.S. Which is why they videotape themselves beheading people and put it out for media consumption. What would you expect them to say?, "they treated me well'? Also, where did this "electrocution" claim come from? Waterboarding has nothing to do with electrocution.

 

[Snowflake]

Ya Allah please bring justice and your shower your mercy on the Ummah

 

[Rou]

First off, taking as many prisoners as the military did creates a major problem. These aren't uniformed military personel, they are terrorists and extremists. Many of these people are thought to possess valuable information, so aggressive interrogation techniques are used. As I mentioned earlier, the most common techniques are waterboarding and various forms of pyschological extremes. Cutting, breaking bones, or inflicting pain for pain's sake is not a U.S. practice, no matter how many "lol" you post. There are always going to be incidents in war that go against those principles, but the vast majority of U.S. military personel would never torture a prisoner.

As for these so-called "accounts" by former detainees, I hope you understand that Al-Qaeda members and Jihadists know that PR is the best weapon to use against the U.S. Which is why they videotape themselves beheading people and put it out for media consumption. What would you expect them to say?, "they treated me well'? Also, where did this "electrocution" claim come from? Waterboarding has nothing to do with electrocution.

what electrocution?

this one?

and no this is not the soul case that we all know of the vietnam war hosts many such cases as well as afganistan.

are you seriously stating that USA do not use electrocution?

think for a second if things such as these were not even accepted then either there are many brave soilders out there willing to go against everything they have been taught or majority of USA soilders are psycos?

Beatings not normal??

armed forces in iraq have been seen beating civlians forget so called insurgents?

its even been captured on video 3 youths being beaten by soilders these things are common place and you state they arent allowed??

naive..denial will always be present listen i dont care if you dont think thats what the US army does the truth matters and those who do such things will pay for it ten fold...

what you or i state wont matter in front of god...the truth will...

 

[Keltoi]

what electrocution?

this one?

and no this is not the soul case that we all know of the vietnam war hosts many such cases as well as afganistan.

are you seriously stating that USA do not use electrocution?

think for a second if things such as these were not even accepted then either there are many brave soilders out there willing to go against everything they have been taught or majority of USA soilders are psycos?

Beatings not normal??

armed forces in iraq have been seen beating civlians forget so called insurgents?

its even been captured on video 3 youths being beaten by soilders these things are common place and you state they arent allowed??

naive..denial will always be present listen i dont care if you dont think thats what the US army does the truth matters and those who do such things will pay for it ten fold...

what you or i state wont matter in front of god...the truth will...

According to the Congressional report released about the Abu Ghraib situation this was a staged picture. No electrocution took place. What happened at Abu Ghraib was the fault of an undertrained and entirely unprofessional prison environment.

As for the Vietnam War, that was a war full of atrocities from both sides. So was World War II....the 24 hour media cycle tends to make people believe that it is somehow worse in 2006. When you have 200,000 troops involved in a war there will be bad decisions made and alot of injustice. The point is the overall stance of the U.S. government and the U.S. military, which is very much against "torture" or abuse of prisoners. Pointing to a particular event involving a few soldiers and using that as a reflection of U.S. government policy is no different than watching terrorists saw an innocent person's head off on a videotape and claiming that is Islam in action.

 

[aamirsaab]

The point is the overall stance of the U.S. government and the U.S. military, which is very much against "torture" or abuse of prisoners.

Yet gauntanamo bay is still up. Look, I studied psychology in both AS and A level (previously stated, by the way), so I know what an average human being is capable of doing, and it isn't very humane. So, yes, the US and UK are very much against "torture", but you'd be surprised as to what the human can do with just the slightest of encouragement. (see obedience to authority experiments for clarification)

Pointing to a particular event involving a few soldiers and using that as a reflection of U.S. government policy is no different than watching terrorists saw an innocent person's head off on a videotape and claiming that is Islam in action.

The difference is however, if one names all US or UK as terrorists or similar names just on the basis of a few soldiers, one is seen as unpatriotic or a terrorist sympathiser (a "bad" guy). If one says all of Islam and muslims are terrorists based on same amount of soldiers, it is accepted.

 

[Rou]

According to the Congressional report released about the Abu Ghraib situation this was a staged picture. No electrocution took place. What happened at Abu Ghraib was the fault of an undertrained and entirely unprofessional prison environment.

As for the Vietnam War, that was a war full of atrocities from both sides. So was World War II....the 24 hour media cycle tends to make people believe that it is somehow worse in 2006. When you have 200,000 troops involved in a war there will be bad decisions made and alot of injustice. The point is the overall stance of the U.S. government and the U.S. military, which is very much against "torture" or abuse of prisoners. Pointing to a particular event involving a few soldiers and using that as a reflection of U.S. government policy is no different than watching terrorists saw an innocent person's head off on a videotape and claiming that is Islam in action.

*sigh* this conversation now is going into lets protect our own rubbish...

and blame the other bloke?

look those soilders who degrade and harm innocents are evil doers and i link them not with american people but with the goverment who enlists and allows such torture to take place where as you link them with yourself and your country that is your choice i would be ashamed if a goverment run army from my country harms innocents like this..i would certainly not band myself with them and protect them just beacuse they are from my land i have morals and with those morals i would judge that torturing anyone mainly civilians in such a way is not human...

terrorists with islam? hmm why would you judge what terrorists do with islam one has nothing to do with the other yet again as you seem to band evil doers with yourself you band those evil doers who behead innocents with islam?? they have nothing to do with islam narrow views make it very easy to make one race and enemy and the other a saviour that is not the case..

just as a few american soilders dont represent the whole of america , terrorists done in any way represent islam...? a very naice way of viewing the world...

as for the picture you seem to be stating things that are not fact...the picture is real and is of a innocent civilian who happend to be a mayor of a town in iraq after he was released he tesfiyed against what happend to him he is reconised by his hand that is deformed...

this pure denial of what is happening in iraq and its not the first time ive seen it some americans seem to take it upon themselves to protect soilders who have done clear wrong and there president who is blatenly biased and evil?

frankley im sick of bothering with these type of people the more it is explained that we dont view you all as evil only those who harm innocents the more excuses i hear?

whatever yeah yeah nothings happening over there ok your saving us the pictures were fake the people are all fine and dandy now at home eating dinner with there family watching friends or sumfin!?

denial....

and then you ask why muslims get angry or why they are fighting???????

when you deny there suffering and protect rapists and murderers then what the hell do you expect?

hypocrit?

200,000 troops involved and you must expect injustice and bad decisons?

2.1 billion muslims my friend!!! so a few make a wrong decison and WE all have to take this crap!?? whatever...do you not hear yourself?



19 bombers 9/11 (inaccurate as some of those are alive still)

6 bombers 7/7

-

iraq bombed thousands of innocents killed and millions displaced...

afgan thousands killed millions displaced....

there may be some injustices? try two countries full!

im finished with you keltoi your in denial and your wasting my time...

 

[Keltoi]

Well Rou, although your sentences are difficult to make sense of, I believe you are simply refusing to stick to the point. This conversation wasn't whether any American soldiers have ever done anything wrong. This was a thread about the use of "torture" and the various claims made by some about what they supposedly endured while at Gitmo. Any U.S. soldier proven to be involved in misconduct has and will be punished. If anyone is in denial it is you. Torture and abuse are not permitted. Has it ever happened? Obviously. Are those two realities so hard to understand? The vast majority of U.S. soldiers are highly trained, highly professional, and do their jobs well.

In response to aamirsaab, I make the statement that torture isn't condoned by the military or government and you state "yet Gitmo still exists". Contrary to what you might read in The Guardian, there hasn't been any evidence of torture or abuse at Gitmo. But what is Gitmo? It's a prison. In a prison, if you refuse to follow instruction or cause a disturbance you will be put in your place. The same as in any prison in the world. The people in there don't enjoy it. Imagine that. As for your analogy about making sweeping generalizations, I suppose I agree, although the analogy seems a bit whiney.

 

[Rou]

Well Rou, although your sentences are difficult to make sense of, I believe you are simply refusing to stick to the point. This conversation wasn't whether any American soldiers have ever done anything wrong. This was a thread about the use of "torture" and the various claims made by some about what they supposedly endured while at Gitmo. Any U.S. soldier proven to be involved in misconduct has and will be punished. If anyone is in denial it is you. Torture and abuse are not permitted. Has it ever happened? Obviously. Are those two realities so hard to understand? The vast majority of U.S. soldiers are highly trained, highly professional, and do their jobs well.

In response to aamirsaab, I make the statement that torture isn't condoned by the military or government and you state "yet Gitmo still exists". Contrary to what you might read in The Guardian, there hasn't been any evidence of torture or abuse at Gitmo. But what is Gitmo? It's a prison. In a prison, if you refuse to follow instruction or cause a disturbance you will be put in your place. The same as in any prison in the world. The people in there don't enjoy it. Imagine that. As for your analogy about making sweeping generalizations, I suppose I agree, although the analogy seems a bit whiney.

If you cannot grasp the english language that is not my concern my friend...

you state i am in denial? of what again?

i state that people have been tortured and they have i state that they were given the chance to do such a thing heance why they had the guts to think they would get away with it...

your defending evil doers keltoi if you had stated that not all are like this agree not all are is the bush adminastration doing this though yes they are...

and are they aiming to harm innocents indeed they are and allow many soilders to get away with such things until they are caught in the act at which point let them go down for it..

wake up...your view is narropw and biased and you seem to ignore fact and just blame even innocents over soilders merely for the fact that they are from your lands...??

as stated your wasting my time as i said electricution had been used yet you deny it whats the point in facts if your going to ignore them any way!?!?

finished with you mate...

theres seems no point so

 

[Keltoi]

What facts Rou? I apologize that it takes more than your opinion to convince me of anything. You speak of being narrow-minded and biased, yet you are willing to accept the claims of known terrorists and the Al-Qaeda propoganda machine over the International Red Cross and the various other reputable organizations that have been inside Gitmo. While these organizations oppose the Gitmo situation because the people have no legal representation, they have made no substantiated claims of actual "abuse". You also have to realize that cuffing a prisoner in the head for disobeying commands is not "abuse", sometimes that is necessary. If all you can come up with is some photograph from Abu Ghraib to "prove" this widespread torture being committed by the U.S. military, then I suppose we can agree to both be done with this conversation.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

So I guess those naked pics with the guys on top of each other mean nothing ?

 

[Keltoi]

So I guess those naked pics with the guys on top of each other mean nothing ?

What does it mean?

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

im askin u son, dont play games lol.

 

[GARY]

I must commend you Keltoi on your ability to maintain your cool while dealing with such abuse. I wouldn't get to concerned about it though. The individual that you have been arguing with often lashes out with insults when he feels he is losing the argument. I noticed it was a full 7 posts before you even hinted at a retaliatory remark. Something you said really made sense though, it was mention of not sticking to the point. It seems that the arguments offered are all over the place and have nothing to do with the discussion. Very true. Anyway, good job at keeping your head while dealing with a difficult person.

 

[Keltoi]

im askin u son, dont play games lol.

I'm not your son, but the only thing it means to me is that several undisciplined weekend warriors made a mockery of their responsibilities and cost the American taxpayer money in order to throw them in jail.

 

[Woodrow]

When a thread gets reduced to personal arguements, it is best to end it before things get worse.


:threadclo