Tolerance

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GARY said:
Clearly you are missing the point. Muslims claim to be tolerant, but are not.
Tolerant of what? Other muslims? People that live and behave the way that you are comfortable with? That's not tolerance.
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You have probably noticed that we are very intolerant of all people. Because we are so radicaly intolerant we allow people to come onto Muslim forums and tell us how intolerant we are.

We are so intolerant of other people that we have the audacity to allow other people to freely discuss their own beliefs and to openly question ours.

You probably have noticed that we immediatly ban any person who brings up any subject that is contradictorary to our beliefs.

I guess since we are so intolerant, it is a good thing we do not allow any tolerant members to post here.

Yes, we do have some very inflexible beliefs and we do defend them. But, we do keep our beliefs out in the open and we do not stop anybody from explaining their beliefs. We do condemn Homosexuality, but we do not condemn the person as long as they can keep their impulses under control. It is the act and the willingness to commit the act we condemn. all of us have impure desirs and if we act upon those desires it makes no difference if it is a homosexual act or rape.
 
Woodrow said:
You have probably noticed that we are very intolerant of all people. Because we are so radicaly intolerant we allow people to come onto Muslim forums and tell us how intolerant we are.

We are so intolerant of other people that we have the audacity to allow other people to freely discuss their own beliefs and to openly question ours.

You probably have noticed that we immediatly ban any person who brings up any subject that is contradictorary to our beliefs.

I guess since we are so intolerant, it is a good thing we do not allow any tolerant members to post here.

Yes, we do have some very inflexible beliefs and we do defend them. But, we do keep our beliefs out in the open and we do not stop anybody from explaining their beliefs. We do condemn Homosexuality, but we do not condemn the person as long as they can keep their impulses under control. It is the act and the willingness to commit the act we condemn. all of us have impure desirs and if we act upon those desires it makes no difference if it is a homosexual act or rape.
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The points about allowing people to come to this forum are good ones, I must admit. I should point out though that I 'occassionally' have had my posts deleted without explaination (only one in the thread a couple of times), which of course makes one wonder. I also have noticed that a few times when a mod has stepped in in the middle of a debate, made a grande statement as fact, and closed the thread. And with the thread goes any chance that the nonmuslim point of view will be made. It has happened to me at least twice. Call it censorship if you will. We will tolerate you coming here, but don't you dare make any good points in a debate.
 
True, but keep in mind us mods are human too. Sometimes we may see things in a light that the poster did not intend. We can make errors.

Yes, sometimes I do delete threads and close the thread. This is not done to quiet the poster, it is usually because too much has gone astray and the thread is falling apart into a fight instead of a debate.
 
Woodrow said:
True, but keep in mind us mods are human too. Sometimes we may see things in a light that the poster did not intend. We can make errors.

Yes, sometimes I do delete threads and close the thread. This is not done to quiet the poster, it is usually because too much has gone astray and the thread is falling apart into a fight instead of a debate.
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More often than not, this true. But I have had this happen when I had just started a thread, also when no arguement has taken place, and also seemingly just because I made a point that the mod doesn't like.
I revisited this thread today because SirZubair just started a thread about a very similiar situation, and by 'coincidence' one of the mods I've noticed this happening with is named as doing this to him.

SirZubair's thread: http://www.islamicboard.com/comments-suggestions/31957-sick-tired-self-righteousness.html
 
If members have a problem with a moderator's decision, the best thing to do is to send a private message to that moderator.

Shall we avoid derailling this thread?
 
Muezzin said:
If members have a problem with a moderator's decision, the best thing to do is to send a private message to that moderator.

Shall we avoid derailling this thread?
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To avoid derailing the thread, I will say that my personal experience with this "occassional" problem with a minority of the mods has been what I believe to be intolerance on their part. Intolerance for the nonmuslim view and questions that I bring to the table. But if I am not tolerated to ask my questions, how can we have any real dialogue that any of us can learn from? I am only learning that many of you are inclined to tolerate my presence, not my opinions or questions.

As for the idea of private messaging the mod's in question, I have done this. It is usually not helpful when dealing with someone that has already decided to be unreasonable, and has closed their mind to what you have to say.
Don't get me wrong, I have found most mod's to be reasonable, but I can name a few that are not.
 
tolerance is something that honestly, all religions have a problem with. like let's take catholics.. they told israel to ban the gay pride parade in jeruselem.. now that is intolerant! and of course muslims kill gyas, non muslims aren't allowed to live in saudi arabia, jews can legally be killed in qatar, so there's your muslim part. and for jews.. well, they have their intolerant verses in the torah lol.

everyone should be tolerant. that doesn't mean you have to accept something, but you should at least tolerate it.

and with homosexuality, muslims are the most intolerant of them all. and i pray that one day muslims will be more tolerant. and woodrow, you said that you don't mind homoseuxals, you just don't like their acts.. that's good, but lots of muslims think that gays should be killed, one muslim told me that he hated gays.. so i asked him "what if your mom was a lesbian and told you" and he responded by saying "i would slay her myself." so yeah, that shows some intolerance right there.

i think islam could be a beutiful religion, but some bigots interperet it wrongly.. as in all religions.
 
Is it an act of intolerance to be against intolerant people?

There is no such thing as anyone being purely tolerant of all things. We all have things that we are intolerant about, often without realising it.

All we can do is to accept the fact that each of us is intolerant about something, and we need to do our best to keep our individual intolerance from infringing on the rights of others.

We all have much to learn from each other. When we understand why each of us is intolerant, we open the doors for tolerance.

Remember to be tolerant we do not have to agree.
 
To you, Gary, it seems we are intolerant because Islam does not allow Homosexuality, but if u think about you too are intolerant because you fail to just accept our beliefs. Ironic, don't u think? Like bro Woodrow said:

Is it an act of intolerance to be against intolerant people?

There is no such thing as anyone being purely tolerant of all things. We all have things that we are intolerant about, often without realising it.

All we can do is to accept the fact that each of us is intolerant about something, and we need to do our best to keep our individual intolerance from infringing on the rights of others.

We all have much to learn from each other. When we understand why each of us is intolerant, we open the doors for tolerance.

Remember to be tolerant we do not have to agree.
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Peace
__________________
 
you can be tolerant and not accepting though. like lots of people tolerate gays.. don't kill them, and let them live their life. but that doesn't mean they have to accept it.

i for one am tolerant and accepting of lots, if not most things.
 
Same here....I don't like them, but I don't say anything. Once, one of em said to me, "If Islam allowed Homosexuality I would be Muslim"...:hiding:
 
Tayyaba said:
To you, Gary, it seems we are intolerant because Islam does not allow Homosexuality, but if u think about you too are intolerant because you fail to just accept our beliefs. Ironic, don't u think? Like bro Woodrow said:



Peace
__________________
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Uh, no. That's not what I've said. The things I referred to included the act of punishing gays in various ways. For example, when a family learns that a member is gay, to disown him, or worse.
To be fair, I realize that many families with no religion at all also disown family members when they learn that they are gay.
 
I'm sure u've said all that, but wasnt the only thing...

If muslims feel that these type of things are so sinful, that they cannot be tolerated, then so be it. But for muslims that hold these views, the claim of tolerance is unfounded. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either you are tolerant, or you are not
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Tayyaba said:
I'm sure u've said all that, but wasnt the only thing...
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You quoted me as saying;
If muslims feel that these type of things are so sinful, that they cannot be tolerated, then so be it. But for muslims that hold these views, the claim of tolerance is unfounded. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either you are tolerant, or you are not
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This is what the media seems to do often, and we call it "selective reporting". This partial statement is meant to make it seem as if I am saying that muslims are intolerant because islam does not allow homosexuality.

Now, let's look at my complete statement;
When I started this thread, I wanted to examine two points about the muslim position on homosexuality. What muslims think 'makes' a person gay, and what the level of tolerance of gays is. In regards to the point about tolerance in particular. I wanted to directly compare it to what I have observed muslims say about islam being a religion of peace and tolerance. tolerance :1a : sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own b : the act of allowing something
2 : disinclined to interfere with others' ways or opinions

Clearly, punishing someone for doing something that does not directly harm others, by the above definition is not tolerant. Don't get me wrong, I am not sticking up for the gay lifestyle. But I have no right to condemn it either. Who am I to judge? Am I to join forces with the others in my community and punish the minority that are different like this, thhe ones that I don't understand and fear "could potentially" corrupt others in the community? Should I join forces with those then that would seek out the other small minorities that are different, and they don't understand, and "could potentially" harm others in the
community? Minorities like muslims? Should they be punished for being different than us? According to the majority religion where I live, not following Christ is a major sin. Should the minority muslims be punished for what the majority views as this sin? Should we be intolerant of these people that have
such different beliefs and practices than the rest of us? Should we be intolerant of the gays that are so different than the rest of us in our community?
I say all this as a point. I have no problem with strong convictions. If muslims feel that these type of things are so sinful, that they cannot be tolerated, then so be it. But for muslims that hold these views, the claim of tolerance is unfounded. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either you
are tolerant, or you are not.
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Now, the bit you quoted that seemed to make reference to sins that were bad enough to not be tolerated, in it's full context we can see clearly that what was really being referred to was the sinner not being tolerated, and in fact being punished by those that could not tolerate him/her.

That was some excellent selective editing on your part, ever consider a career in journalism? CNN could use a few more good people with those kind of skills.

You seem to be trying to make it seem as if I say muslims are intolerant for simply not approving of homosexuality, clearly I did not say this. I myself do not approve either. Clearly my reference was to homosexuals being punished by those that do not approve, that is where it becomes intolerant.

One mistake I did make though was in not clarifying that I do see that some muslims do this, while others do not. Another was in not clarifying that I do distinguish between "islam" and "muslims".
 
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Verily, you practise your lusts on men instead of women. Nay, but you are a people transgressing beyond bounds (by committing great sins)’”

[al-A’raaf 7:80-81]

B – “Verily, We sent against them a violent storm of stones (which destroyed them all), except the family of Loot (Lot), them We saved in the last hour of the night”

[al-Qamar 54:34 – interpretation of the meaning]

Islam and Muslims are tolerant with things that can be tolerated...

But something like homosexuality, which Allah forbade and has destroyed the past civilizations that were extravagant in such acts... it clearly shows that it is something to be condemned... If God destroyed the people before us than who are we to go against God almighty?

We love what Allah loves.. and we hate what Allah hates... and be sure that Allah loves all that is good and hates all that is evil.
 
I get a little spooked over discussions like this - I get to loose the point at some time during the progres.

Why is it so needfull to discuss the tolerance of muslim versus christians/other religions ?

I would think that the background for intollerance is mutch more interesting - not wich believe the intollerent have
 
Ansar Al-'Adl said:
Hi Gary,
Evidently you are unaware that in an Islamic state, one is not punished for being homosexual. One is punished for committing homosexual acts publicly such that four witnesses can testify to the open display of licentious behavior. Please see our discussion here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-islam/4498-shariah-law.html#post556617

Regards
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Hi Ansar, the punishment I mentioned does not always come from the authorities. More often it comes from the person's own family. As I said earlier though, this also happens with nonmuslims.
I don't often say this, but I think this thread has run it's course. We are now going over the same things again. Unless someone has something new to add, this thread may as well be closed.
 
Tayyaba said:
I read ur entire post Gary and the meaning didnt change whether i cut it out or not.
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Then you clearly are misinterpreting what I have said. The problem could be either in your understanding, my explaining, or both.

At any rate, I meant what I meant. If you choose to insist that I meant something else, that is for you to deal with.
 
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