Not every group that uses the name "Church" is Christian.

north_malaysian said:
Unitarians are the moonies, rught?
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No, Unitarians are not part of the Unification Church which follows Rev Moon. It is my understanding that the Unification Church believes that Christ did not accomplish His work on earth in that He had no children. That apparently is Rev Moon's job as a new Messiah.
 
Keltoi said:
I'm sure there are many on an individual level, but as for churches, the Unitarian Universalists would be one example. There is alot of debate about Mormons, but I think while Mormons believe some very strange things from my perspective, they do believe in the divinity and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
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you're right - i forgot about unitarians. tho i doubt they would refer to themselves as christians.
i think i would probably go by what you said earlier.
One cannot be a Christian if they don't believe Christ was crucified for our sins and was resurrected. That is the core belief behind Christianity
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that seems a pretty good definition to me.
 
snakelegs said:
One cannot be a Christian if they don't believe Christ was crucified for our sins and was resurrected. That is the core belief behind Christianity
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that seems a pretty good definition to me.
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Which is why I began this thread with the statement that not every group that uses the name "Church" is Christian.

For instance we are now talking about two different groups that refer to themselves as a "church" (the Unitarian Church and the Unification Church) but that would not fit the definition of Christian you just accepted.

The same could be said of some other groups that we have already talked about on this thread.

The Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe that Jesus Christ was crucified for our sins.

The Christian Science Church does not believe that Jesus Christ was crucified for our sins.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints says they believe this when talking to non-Mormons, but they do not actually teach this concept to Mormons.

The Church of Scientology does not believe that Jesus Christ was crucified for our sins.
 
snakelegs said:
thanks for your reply - interesting info about mormons.
you and i have different criteria for defining a christian. in addition to the ones i mentioned earlier, i think if someone calls himself a christian - then he's a christian. i don't really see how being very different from all other christians makes you a non-christian as long as your sect believes that jesus died for your sins, that jesus is divine, that baptism is necessary to go to heaven and that have the holy communion ritual - which mormons do.
but then, you can't expect an agnostic to use the same criteria as a pastor!
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As this quote taken from page one seems to be unresolved still, I have created a new thread Please don't confuse Mormonism with historic Christianity for those who wish to pursue this aspect of the subject more fully.
 
From JWs own documents:
"To get one's name written in that book of life will depend on one's works, whether they are in fulfillment of God's will and approved by his Judge and King." (Watchtower, August 15, 1972).
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JWs do believe in a ransom theory, that Jesus died to pay a price for sin, but they do not believe that Jesus' death actually saves people. As pointed out above, according to JW theology, one has to earn one's salvation by doing good works. Perhaps it should not surprise me that several Muslims on this board seem to like the theology of the Jehovah's Witnesses. Those who do, may also find themselves in agreement with this item taken from their website:
CHRISTENDOM HAS BETRAYED GOD AND THE BIBLE
Included among those who do not live by the Bible are the peoples and nations of Christendom. "Christendom" is defined as that part of the world where Christianity prevails. It is largely the Western world with its church systems, which from about the fourth century C.E. became prominent. Christendom has had the Bible for centuries, and its clergy claim to teach it and to be God's representatives. But do the clergy and missionaries of Christendom teach the truth? Do their actions really represent God and the Bible? Does Christianity really prevail in Christendom? No. Since its religion came to the forefront in the fourth century, Christendom has proved to be an enemy of God and of the Bible. Yes, the facts of history show that Christendom has betrayed God and the Bible.

The fundamental doctrines of Christendom are based not on the Bible but on ancient myths—those of Greece, Egypt, Babylon, and others. Teachings such as the inherent immortality of the human soul, eternal torment in hellfire, purgatory, and the Trinity (three persons in one Godhead) are not found in the Bible.
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But note, if you do agree with them, then you are saying that what has represented itself as Christianity for the last 1600+ years, is not true Christianity. (Which, based on some posts I have read, I would not find it surprising to discover some persons willing to so state. :cry: )
 
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Grace Seeker said:
From JWs own documents:


JWs do believe in a ransom theory, that Jesus died to pay a price for sin, but they do not believe that Jesus' death actually saves people. As pointed out above, according to JW theology, one has to earn one's salvation by doing good works. Perhaps it should not surprise me that several Muslims on this board seem to like the theology of the Jehovah's Witnesses. Those who do, may also find themselves in agreement with this item taken from their website:
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CHRISTENDOM HAS BETRAYED GOD AND THE BIBLE
Included among those who do not live by the Bible are the peoples and nations of Christendom. "Christendom" is defined as that part of the world where Christianity prevails. It is largely the Western world with its church systems, which from about the fourth century C.E. became prominent. Christendom has had the Bible for centuries, and its clergy claim to teach it and to be God's representatives. But do the clergy and missionaries of Christendom teach the truth? Do their actions really represent God and the Bible? Does Christianity really prevail in Christendom? No. Since its religion came to the forefront in the fourth century, Christendom has proved to be an enemy of God and of the Bible. Yes, the facts of history show that Christendom has betrayed God and the Bible.

The fundamental doctrines of Christendom are based not on the Bible but on ancient myths—those of Greece, Egypt, Babylon, and others. Teachings such as the inherent immortality of the human soul, eternal torment in hellfire, purgatory, and the Trinity (three persons in one Godhead) are not found in the Bible.[/QUOTE] But note, if you do agree with them, then you are saying that what has represented itself as Christianity for the last 1600+ years, is not true Christianity. (Which, based on some posts I have read, I would not find it surprising to discover some persons willing to so state. :cry: )[/QUOTE]


:salamext:

Greetings of Peace Brother,

i guess i shouldn't point out that i erupted in laughter when i read that!

not sure if i ever said so, but it was a Jehovah's Witness who sparked my interest in "finding the right church".

which, of course lead to me remembering watching Herbert W. Armstrong on the telly!

i'm NOT trying to be your worst nughtmare! :giggling:

but on a serious note:
To get one's name written in that book of life will depend on one's works, whether they are in fulfillment of God's will and approved by his Judge and King."
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does that really seem far-fetched? you have to "find the right path" and then you have to "do the things that keep you on it."

as logical as Mr. Spock!

Peace,

:wasalamex
 
grace seeker,
that quote from the jehovah's witness folks was really interesting.
hope i remember it if i ever feel a desire to become a christian - i will check them out first.
interersting - they also call other christians non-christians.
do you know if JW's believe in the divinity of jesus?
thanks! :)
p.s. i have learned more about christianity on this forum than in my whole life!
 
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this is probably a stupid question. (won't be first, won't be last).
if someone believes in the trinity does that mean he automatically believes in the divinity of jesus?
 
snakelegs said:
this is probably a stupid question. (won't be first, won't be last).
if someone believes in the trinity does that mean he automatically believes in the divinity of jesus?
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I am not speaking for christianity, but the whole concept of Trinity is based on 3 person in 1 God. That meaning they do believe Jesus devine and the holy Ghost. Co-equal but of the same essence.

(Allah Forbid)
 
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snakelegs said:
this is probably a stupid question. (won't be first, won't be last).
if someone believes in the trinity does that mean he automatically believes in the divinity of jesus?
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Some Hindus believe in the trinity to be Brahm, Siva and Vishnu. so I guess it depends on the trinity as being seen by different religions. If a Christian states he is trinitarian it is a statement that he believe in some concept a divinity of Jesus(as)

In Christianity you will find some denominations that are not trinitarian. Some that believe in a duality in which Jesus(as) is not devine and then there are the hard core Trinitarians who do believe in the Divinity of Jesus(as)

Even among the trinitarians there seems to be some difference of opinion as to the exact nature of Jesus(as).
 
north_malaysian said:
Unitarians are the moonies, rught?
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Moonies??? They sound wonderful!!!
From wikipedia:
General Beliefs of UUs

Unitarian Universalists (UUs) believe in complete but responsible freedom of speech, thought, belief, faith, and disposition. They believe that each person is free to search for his or her own personal truth on issues like the existence, nature, and meaning of life, deities, creation, and afterlife. UUs can come from any heritage, have any sexual orientation, and hold beliefs from other cultures and religions.

Concepts about deity are quite diverse among UUs. Some believe that there is no god; others believe in many gods. Some believe that God is everything. Some believe in a female God (Goddess), a passive God, or that god is found in nature. Some UUs reject the idea of deities and instead speak of "universal spirit" or "reverence of life". Unitarian Universalists believe that individuals should be supported by their community in their personal searches for truth about deity.
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Principles and Purposes
1. The inherent worth and dignity of every person
2. Justice, equity and compassion in human relations
3. Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations
4. A free and responsible search for truth and meaning
5. The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large
6. The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all
7. Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.
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So tolerant and supporting, it almost makes me want to cry :cry:.
 
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KAding said:
Moonies??? They sound wonderful!!!
From wikipedia:




So tolerant and supporting, it almost makes me want to cry :cry:.
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Yes, they sound like a very tolerant and loving group of people. I don't have a problem with the Universalists, besides their politics, my only point is that they aren't representative of Christian faith and belief, although they have a "church".
 
Keltoi said:
Yes, they sound like a very tolerant and loving group of people. I don't have a problem with the Universalists, besides their politics, my only point is that they aren't representative of Christian faith and belief, although they have a "church".
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Very true :).
 
Keltoi said:
Do I sense some sarcasm there....:uuh: surely not.
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No no, don't fear. There was no sarcasm :). Look at the part I quoted earlier from wikipedia:
Concepts about deity are quite diverse among UUs. Some believe that there is no god; others believe in many gods. Some believe that God is everything. Some believe in a female God (Goddess), a passive God, or that god is found in nature. Some UUs reject the idea of deities and instead speak of "universal spirit" or "reverence of life".
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There is no way I would define any of those beliefs as 'Christian'.
 
i think the unitarians are no longer allowed to call themselves "church" and now call themselves uniratian universalist society.
my stepfather was an athiest, my mother an agnostic - they were unitarians. during the 30's and 40's (probably long before that too) the unitarians were the centre for progressive movements and intellectuals in general - the communist party met there (my stepfather was a communist), so did the socialists. they were also active in the civil rights movement. don't know much about them over the last few decades.
i wasn't raised in any religion, but once in a great while they attended services (which often consisted of a book review or talk about important social issues) and i was parked in sunday school where we spent our time learning about how other kids in other parts of the world lived and making fun stuff.
there was no mention of god that i can remember at all. in fact, i never heard anything about their theology and still no almost nothing about it.
however on the west coast, they can be quite different apparently. my mother went a few times in the 70's and that church was about half and half liberal/conservative.
again, i don't know how they may have changed over the past decades...
 

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