Wife beating?

[Malaikah]

This is where one of the potential problems arises. What if you don't feel that you have done anything "bad"? What if your husband decides many things you do are "bad", while you feel you are being good?
What about the husband that thinks he is right when he is not?

He would use Islamic standards, and like I said if the wife thinks he is wrong then she can take it to a third person to help them settle the issue.

It's just my opinion, and obviously we will disagree, but I see the "steps" as something that is meant for an imaginary, magical, perfect world. It reminds me of the movie 'Pleasantville'.

No they are meant for Muslims.

It is extremely unlikely that a man that cannot have a rational, reasonable discussion with his wife to settle a marital dispute, is going to be able to rationally, without anger, follow a set of steps, that leads to him being in a position that allows him to give her a tap. If he lacks the ability to reason with her, and is prone to 'tapping', he is likely going to be an angry man. That tap, will be more of a 'slap'.

But that discussion IS step one of the steps! He reasons with her, but she doesnt respond.

 

[GARY]

He would use Islamic standards, and like I said if the wife thinks he is wrong then she can take it to a third person to help them settle the issue.



No they are meant for Muslims.

But that discussion IS step one of the steps! He reasons with her, but she doesnt respond.

Sounds like you got it all figured out.

Life is not like the scenario you described. That would not work. A situation that developed that way would not be a calm situation that you described, with 'steps'. That option should not be availiable, it's a dangerous door to open. If a man feels the need to 'tap' a woman, he will be angry. Muslims are people too.

But hey, what do I know. It's just the opinion of an ignorant kafir.

I hope for your sake, and safety, that your future husband does not ever feel the need to 'tap' you.
Peace.

 

[Malaikah]

But hey, what do I know. It's just the opinion of an ignorant kafir.

Exactly.:thumbs_up God knows better than you or I do.

 

[Muslim Woman]

I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)

Listen to the holy Quran---the Final Testament
Recitation by Shiekh Saad Al-Ghamdhi of Saudi Arabia
http://www.islamworld.net/fathiha.au

whole Quran recitation: http://quran.jalisi.com
&&&

What about a society that thinks "Its not right to believe in God" can they reject all religion based on that?

----- a good point , bro . In another forum , an Atheist told me he did not find it wrong that 2 brothers had secret relationship with step-mom when she was still dad's wife ( Bold & Beautiful). So, chris , if human being have to decide which is good , which is bad , there will be chaos. We all have differenet opininions.

Why would God let men have 3 more wives even if the first one would be really upset?"

----well Sis Chris , u did not give any suggestion for that young man who's wife is extremely sick ( unable to perform her duty as a wife ). Should he divorce her, cheat her or deprive himself for the rest of his life or what ?????


related link:

Dr. Zakir Naik
http://www.allaahuakbar.net/misconceptions/1.htm
Qur'ân permits limited polygyny
As I mentioned earlier, Qur'ân is the only religious book on the face of the earth that says ‘marry only one’. The context of this phrase is the following verse from Surah Nisa of the Glorious Qur’an:
"Marry women of your choice, two, or three, or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one." [Al-Qur'ân 4:3]



Before the Qur'ân was revealed, there was no upper limit for polygyny and many men had scores of wives, some even hundreds. Islam put an upper limit of four wives. Islam gives a man permission to marry two, three or four women, only on the condition that he deals justly with them.
In the same chapter i.e. Surah Nisa verse 129 says: "Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women...." [Al-Qur'ân 4:129]
Therefore polygyny is not a rule but an exception. Many people are under the misconception that it is compulsory for a Muslim man to have more than one wife.
Broadly, Islam has five categories of Do’s and Don’ts:
(i) ‘Fard’ i.e. compulsory or obligatory
(ii) ‘Mustahab’ i.e. recommended or encouraged


(iii) ‘Mubah’ i.e. permissible or allowed
(iv) ‘Makruh’ i.e. not recommended or discouraged


(v) ‘Haraam’ i.e. prohibited or forbidden
Polygyny falls in the middle category of things that are permissible. It cannot be said that a Muslim who has two, three or four wives is a better Muslim as compared to a Muslim who has only one wife.

.... polygamy gives the opportunity for more unmarried women to be married, considering the fact that women exceed men in number. This in turn eliminates fornication and prostitution, thus greatly reducing the number of children born out of wedlock. Unfortunately, children born out of wedlock are being ostracized in the same way as their mothers are being look down by the society. In polygamy, children are recognized as legal offspring of their fathers just as their mothers are respected as legally married women.
There are several other reasons, why Islaam has permitted limited polygyny, but it is mainly to protect the modesty of women.



For your Comments/ Suggestions/Criticisms, please do not hesitate to mail us at: [email protected]
http://www.allaahuakbar.net

 

[hidden_treasure]

Re: 4:34 - a Q regarding the ayat

If you ask a Westerner if it’s OK to beat your wife the answer is “no”.

If you ask a Muslim it requires a 10,000 word debate between Muslims!

How can the West understand Islam when Muslims do not!

who said we dont understand Joe??? and yes u may ask a westerner if its ok to beat their wife, and yes they will more than likely say no, but behind closed doors is another story aint it?

Can u tell me what the big deal is about being tapped with a siwak?? it is not meant by any means to harm the woman, but to humiliate her, to show her that she has taken things way too far (for whatever reason)...

 

[hidden_treasure]

This is the beauty of islam, we have guidelines in all aspects of our lives.
I have never been "tapped" before by my husband, as i am obedient to him, and he in return treats me like his queen. I respect him, and he respects me, and we both try and please Allah as best we can.

When you fear God, you will try and be a good person, and be merciful to others.

 

[lolwatever]

^ btw as for wat joe said that's sooo not true, i swear i've heard with my very own ears @ uni non Muslims going on about how 'women bashers are cool' ffended: let alone the other sexual insaults and harassment comments they hurl at girls ifnrotn and behind their backs!

so stop trying to claim moral high grounds that don't belong to you,

Funny some non Muslims jump to moral high grounds on thing slike this and polygamy without taking a good look at their own sorry states first :grumbling (trust me no matter how much they deny cheating doesnt occur, i assure u it's something taht non Muslims explicitly boast about in my work place :uuh: )

slightly off topic but i think they should keep out of this if ppl r gonna try pretend they're angelic, and finally.. i think this thread is going in circles man, pls b4 ne1 objects or post a question.. hav a read thru i assure u ur point has been answered or mentioned!!!!!!

 

[hidden_treasure]

Gary - you must have missed the whole idea that men are the leaders of the family and wives are obedient to their husbands. He should consult his wife but the decisions rest with him. So in the case of these dim wits let's hope they take their wife's advice.

yes, men are "supposed" to be the leaders of the household, thats correct. Its funny when i see western men for example, as i myself am a westerner, who are ruled by their nagging wives on the street. It just looks so ridiculous. He is too afraid to upset his wife, so he gives in to her every demand...these marriages only last a few years at the most, as he usually ends up in bed with another woman. He cannot stand his wife and her nagging, ruling, oppresive, aggresive, over the top ways any longer...
Thank God i have a real man.....!!

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

The point was not that the actions were similiar.

Then by your own admission, the analogy was unwarranted.

And there seems to be another misunderstanding here. A rational objection is not one that entails constant recourse to statements such as "it is just my opinion" or "personally, i think"; nor is a rational objection something that is subjective. For you to bring a rational objection you would need to clearly demonstrate a logical contradiction or fallacy in the arguments I am advancing. As of yet, you have not done this.

It is not in my opinion an effective way of "snapping someone out of it," if it were we would see psychiatrists and therapists "tapping" their patients all the time.

Another flawed analogy. Psychiatrists are not living with their patients and going through all the steps (they only have enough time to go through the dialogue stage), nor are they even interested in saving a fictitious marital relationship with their patient from deterioration. Secondly, they are bound by legal restraints as well in terms of what they are allowed to do with their patient. Thirdly, cultural attitudes play a large role in shaping therapeutic theories - keep in mind that you are appealing to the same group of people that used to classify homosexuality as a mental disorder only to have now replaced it with homophobia.

If it were effective, why doesn't the wife bring her husband to a third party mediator who will tap him?

Because typically mediation has nothing to do with that and a mediating party maintains trust from both sides by negotioating in an unbiased manner between both groups; they are not there for the purpose of hitting one party on behalf of the other. If the husband is still obtuse enough at the mediation stage to warrant a smack, then in all likelihood if the wife returns to him he might become even more abusive towards her.

Sure, you can always get someone to come hit the husband to get him to "snap out of it" but it is usually more trouble than he's worth.

Why don't we just leave it as I find it an objectional ruling and you do not.

By all means if you want to leave the issue and move on to other issues, go ahead, I'm not forcing you to continue posting in this thread. This thread is for the purpose of explaining the Islamic law pertaining to this issue, not for the purpose of me trying to convince chris4336 of a particular point of view. So if you have no further questions on the Islamic jurisprudence underlying this issue, then feel free to leave this thread and move on.

That is my opinion and I am entitled to it even if you consider it illogical or irrational or whatever.

I never said you weren't entitled to your opinion; but if you do not want to subject it to rational scrutiny and criticism then why espouse it in such a debate in the first place? If its your personal opinion that you don't want to discuss, fine keep it to yourself.

Islam contains rulings that I personally consider objectional, so that is something that I personally have to deal with.

...and just on a linguistic note, I wanted to point out that the word is objectionable not objectional!

Regards

 

[Iwant2no2]

I can't understand any type of domestic violence, meaning: "wife beating", "wife battering", "Man Beating", "husband battering", "relationship violence", "domestic abuse", "spousal abuse", and "family violence", or even the beating of an animal. That I do not understand, I will never understand anyone condoning this type of behaviour. I feel I never will understand it, maybe because I lived it for about one year and half.

I was in a very domestic violent relationship/marriage about 11 years ago. My views on this type of relationship is when the battering starts it never stops. It just gets worse. There are many different theories as to the causes of domestic violence. As with many phenomena regarding human experience, no one approach appears to cover all cases. Identified and proposed causes include a need for power and control, a form of bullying and social learning of abuse. Abusers' efforts to dominate their partners have been attributed to low self-esteem or feelings of inadequacy, unresolved childhood conflicts, the stress of poverty, hostility and resentment toward women, hostility and resentment toward men, personality disorders, genetic tendencies and sociocultural influences, among other possible causative factors. Most authorities seem to agree that abusive personalities result from a combination of several factors, to varying degrees. Factors associated with domestic violence also include substance abuse, mental illness, and many more.

These are my views, just as said above "when it starts it never stops". I just can not see anyone condoning wifebeating of any kind. It's a bad thing to think that any type strategy to gain or maintain power and control over any victim is a good thing to have in any marriage or relationship.

Just my views...... eace:
Take care....

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Greetings,

I agree with everything you said, and I am very sorry to hear about what you had to go through. Indeed we should all condemn domestic violence, wife battering, and spousal abuse of any form. All such things are against Islam; it is interesting that you mentioned beating of an animal because even this too is prohibited in Islam:

A'isha said: 'I was once riding a difficult (slow-moving) camel, so I kept hitting it. When the Prophet saw me, he said: 'Be gentle, for gentleness adorns everything in which it is found, and its absence leaves everything tainted.' (Musnad Ahmad)

Islam commands kindness and compassion and prohibits harshness and cruelty. Look at the example of the Prophet Muhammad PBUH:

Mu'awiyah ibn al-Hakam al-Sulami said: 'By my father and mother, (I swear that) I never saw a teacher, before or after him, who was a better teacher than the Messenger of Allah. By God, he never shouted at me, or punished me, or insulted me.' (Sunan Ad-Dârimî)

When I went back to my userpage to copy these ahadith, I was reminded of some of the ahadith on anger and controlling anger:

The Prophet said: 'If one of you happens to be standing when he becomes angry, then he should take a seat. If this helps his anger to subside, then good and well. Otherwise, he should go and lie down.' (Sunan Abî Dawûd, Sahîh Ibn Hibbân)
The Prophet said: 'The strong man is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry.' (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim)
The Prophet said: 'Teach the people and give them glad tidings. Do not make things difficult. And if you get angry, remain silent.' (Musnad Ahmad, Musnad al-Tayâlisî, and al-Adab al-Mufrad Bukhârî


Peace!

 

[Iwant2no2]

Greetings,

I agree with everything you said, and I am very sorry to hear about what you had to go through. Indeed we should all condemn domestic violence, wife battering, and spousal abuse of any form. All such things are against Islam; it is interesting that you mentioned beating of an animal because even this too is prohibited in Islam:

Thank you for your kind remarks Ansar Al-'Adl;593491. I was reading on the second posting on this thread, a guy with the screen name' "Igram" quoted from the Quran' the following: and I quote.... "Men are (meant to be righteous and kind) guardians of women because God has favored some more than others and because they (i.e. men) spend out of their wealth. (In their turn) righteous women are (meant to be) devoted and to guard what God has (willed to be) guarded even though out of sight (of the husband). As for those (women) on whose part you fear ill-will and nasty conduct, admonish them (first), (next) leave them alone in beds (and last) beat or separate them (from you). But if they obey you, then seek nothing against them. Behold, God is most high and great. (4:34)

What if it's the other way around and the man does all the wrong to her, can he be beat by his wife, and later divorced by her if he continues wronging her? I didn't read anything about what a woman can do to her husband if he wrongs her... Can a woman do anything to HIM? Then you said: "All such things are against Islam" If you say "Indeed we should all condemn domestic violence, wife battering, and spousal abuse of any form"... Then the Quran does use the word "beat" them. Just seems to me like a double standard on what the Quran says and what you are saying. I'm just not understanding that part. I like the things you said much more..... If I am wrong please explain........

That was a sweet story about the Camel. I have a horse, up until he was at least 4 years old he was little mean at times about bitting me. I can not count how many times he bite me, sometimes hard and sometimes just a nip, but a nip can hurt to and leave a nasty bruse. I found myself loosing my temper a few times with him, specially after a real brusing bite from him... uch: I would hit him with my open hand, { yeah just like that's really going to hurt a 1400 pound horse}, but never did I ever beat him with anything that would really hurt him. There were times I really wanted to kick the.... well ya know!! Then one day and old man told me if I didn't want to get bitten by my horse any longer to grab him by his halter, after he bites, and hold on tight with your hands {if you don't want to loose your teeth} and then bite him myself on his top lip, OK so I tried that one day, and believe me it worked, he never bite me every again. He is a now a great horse, and a good friend....

Take care... eace:

 

[chris4336]

Ansar - Just because you do not see a fallacy in your arguments doesn't mean that I do not see a fallacy in your arguments. That is where the opinion factor comes in. I think its illogical to say that "It is only to be used when the husband is sure it will be effective" and give angry men the responsibility of determining when it will be effective. You think this is logical, so now what do we do? I also think that giving men the right to hit their wife lightly is a pretty bad idea because of the possible behavior it could lead to. These seem like rational objections to me, but they might seem irrational to you.

The analogy was misunderstood. My point was about the difficulties with accepting a religion while I still find some parts of it objectionable. Maybe this is something you cannot appreciate. I was not comparing the behaviors, which I thought I had stated. Rather I choose something that all people would find objectionable, so that maybe they could understand. You obviously cannot understand that its difficult to accept a religion that permits lightly tapping of a wife, because you do not find that objectional. So replace "lightly tapping of a wife" with any behavior that you find objectionable and then hopefully you can understand where I am coming from.

I now very clearly understand the Islamic law so I will move on.

Thanks for your concern about my language.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

"Men are (meant to be righteous and kind) guardians of women because God has favored some more than others and because they (i.e. men) spend out of their wealth. (In their turn) righteous women are (meant to be) devoted and to guard what God has (willed to be) guarded even though out of sight (of the husband). As for those (women) on whose part you fear ill-will and nasty conduct, admonish them (first), (next) leave them alone in beds (and last) beat or separate them (from you). But if they obey you, then seek nothing against them. Behold, God is most high and great. (4:34)

What if it's the other way around and the man does all the wrong to her, can he be beat by his wife, and later divorced by her if he continues wronging her? I didn't read anything about what a woman can do to her husband if he wrongs her... Can a woman do anything to HIM? Then you said: "All such things are against Islam" If you say "Indeed we should all condemn domestic violence, wife battering, and spousal abuse of any form"... Then the Quran does use the word "beat" them. Just seems to me like a double standard on what the Quran says and what you are saying. I'm just not understanding that part. I like the things you said much more..... If I am wrong please explain........

We have been over each of these questions again and again in quite some detail. Please read the thread for the detailed answers. I really don't want to regurgitate all that info all over again, but since you asked so nicely I'll give you a quick run-down and for more detail, read my previous posts in this thread
1. The verse is speaking about a scenario where the wife is guilty of manifest indecency
2. In the scenario the husband has exhausted other methods of dispute resolution such as dialogue and temporary seperation
3. In this scenario the Qur'an gives a dispensation - not a command or even a recommdation - to use the method of 'daraba', when it will prove productive in evoking recognition on the part of the other party of the gravity of the situation and the manner in which their behaviour is threatening the relationship.
4. The word 'daraba' has been grossly distorted when translated as 'beat' because 'beat' implies repetitive violent strikes with intent to cause injury and harm - all of which is against Islam.
5. Daraba has been described as a non-violent swat/hit that does not cause harm, nor targets the face or private parts, but is almost as mild as the strike of a miswâk (twig).
6. Also, one is prohibited from hitting when angry, as the other hadith on anger show.
7. If the man is guilty of manifest indecency, then the wife can seek third-party mediation or get the arbitration of a judge. She should never stay in an abusive household, and the reason why she is not given the option to hit him is because that may endanger her further.
8. However, if he hurts her and she takes him to court, then by Islamic law she can have the same done to him that he did to her.

Again, these are just basic points without the detailed explanation and justification - if you're interested in that please go through and read the thread. Here are some teachings from the Prophet Muhammad pbuh on the subject in case you have not seen them either:

The Prophet said: 'The most perfect of the believers in faith are the best of them in moral excellence, and the best of you are the kindest to their wives. (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)
The Prophet said: 'None but a noble man treats women in an honorable manner. And none but an ignoble treats women disgracefully' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)
The Prophet said: 'I command you to be kind to women.' (Sahîh Bukhârî)
The Prophet said: 'The believer should not harbor hatred towards his wife. If he dislikes something in her, then surely he will be pleased with another quality in her.' (Sahîh Muslim)
The Prophet said to Abd-Allah ibn 'Amr ibn al-'Aas, who used to fast all day and pray all night: 'Do not do that. Fast and break your fast, pray qiyaam and sleep, for your body has a right over you, your eyes have a right over you, your wife has a right over you and your visitors have a right over you.' (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim)
A'isha, the wife of the Prophet, was asked, "What did the Prophet used to do at home?" She answered, "he kept himself busy helping the members of his household, and when the time for prayer came, he would go out for the prayer". (Sahîh Bukhârî)
The Prophet said: 'Verily among the most evil of people with Allah in ranking on the Day of Resurrection is a man who goes to his wife and whose wife goes to him, and then he spreads her secrets.' (Sahîh Muslim, Musnad Ahmad, Sunan Abû Dawûd)
The Prophet said: "Iblîs (Satan) sets up his throne on water, then he sends out his armies of devils (to incite humans to do evil). The closest to him of these troops are the ones who cause the most tribulation. One of them comes and says, 'I have done such and such.' Iblîs says, 'You have not done enough.' Then another one comes and says, 'I never left him alone until I created trouble and caused division between him and his wife.' Then Iblîs comes close to this devil and says, 'How excellent you are!' " (Sahîh Muslim)

The Prophet said: 'If any man shows patience with his wife's bad temper, Allah will give him a reward similar to the reward of Ayyub (Job) for his patience, and if any woman shows patience with her husband's bad temper, Allah will give her a reward similar to the reward of Asiyah daughter of Muzahim, the wife of Pharoah (Cf. Qur'an 66:11).' (Al-Kabâ'ir of Adh-Dhahabî)
The Prophet said: 'Consult with women. Indeed, you have some rights over your women and they have some rights over you. It is their right on you that you provide for their food and clothing generously, and your right on them is that they do not let anyone whom you dislike in the house, walking upon your floor. (Sunan Ibn Mâjah, Sunan At-Tirmidhî)

The Prophet said: 'The most perfect believers are the best in conduct and best of you are those who are best to their wives.' (Musnad Ahmad)

That was a sweet story about the Camel. I have a horse, up until he was at least 4 years old he was little mean at times about bitting me. I can not count how many times he bite me, sometimes hard and sometimes just a nip, but a nip can hurt to and leave a nasty bruse. I found myself loosing my temper a few times with him, specially after a real brusing bite from him... uch: I would hit him with my open hand, { yeah just like that's really going to hurt a 1400 pound horse}, but never did I ever beat him with anything that would really hurt him. There were times I really wanted to kick the.... well ya know!! Then one day and old man told me if I didn't want to get bitten by my horse any longer to grab him by his halter, after he bites, and hold on tight with your hands {if you don't want to loose your teeth} and then bite him myself on his top lip, OK so I tried that one day, and believe me it worked, he never bite me every again. He is a now a great horse, and a good friend....

Take care... eace:

wow, that's a neat story! Thanks for sharing!

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hello chris,

Ansar - Just because you do not see a fallacy in your arguments doesn't mean that I do not see a fallacy in your arguments.

It is not a question of who sees what. If there is a logical fallacy in my arguments you should be able to expose the flaw - where is it? What is the logical error? You haven't mentioned it all, you just continue to say that in your opinion it is not effective, which does not amount to establishing fallacious reasoning in the opponent's argument in the first place.

I think its illogical to say that "It is only to be used when the husband is sure it will be effective" and give angry men the responsibility of determining when it will be effective.

Angry men are not give the decision. Re-read what I posted on anger:


The Prophet said: 'If one of you happens to be standing when he becomes angry, then he should take a seat. If this helps his anger to subside, then good and well. Otherwise, he should go and lie down.' (Sunan Abî Dawûd, Sahîh Ibn Hibbân)
The Prophet said: 'The strong man is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry.' (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim)
The Prophet said: 'Teach the people and give them glad tidings. Do not make things difficult. And if you get angry, remain silent.' (Musnad Ahmad, Musnad al-Tayâlisî, and al-Adab al-Mufrad Bukhârî)

You can't even shout or yell when you're angry, let alone beat others. So your presumtion that angry men are given authority here and licence to unleash their anger is totally baseless.

I also think that giving men the right to hit their wife lightly is a pretty bad idea because of the possible behavior it could lead to.

First, your not even objecting to the act in and of itself, your only objection is that someone can misuse the dispensation. Right from here YOU need to recognize that none of your objections are against what the Qur'an says, but only against how people can misuse it. Second, I already answered this objection as well way at the beginning of our debate.
1. Qur'an and Sunnah lay down strict guidelines and stringent conditions for the implementation of such rules
2. The slippery slope argument can apply to absolutely anything. Human beings are not robots who need 800 page programs delineating thousands of parameters which still will not cover all scenarios. We have brains and we are responsible for making sound judgements and we know the sunnah and the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh which we have to follow.
3. If we apply the same slippery slope argument to both sides, you would have to object to every single marital law system in the world because none of them have turned the grey area black and white; as I said:

Actually the same 'slippery-slope' argument can be applied to anything in this regard, irrespective of where you choose to draw the line. When does a spouse's playful shove become an aggressive push? When does an annoyed slap become an inappropriate smack? When does an exasperated grab become a threatening clutch? When does an unwanted pinch become a abusive squeeze?

What you must realize is that there is inherent subjectivity when it comes to physical contact and interactions amongst human beings. And most people have reasonable judgement; we're not robots or computers who need an 800 page programming of the exact parameters of appropriate contact, which will never be free of grey areas anyway. In your day to day interactions you need to be a judge on what kind of conduct is allowed. If someone acts excessively it is usually quite obvious, especially if the case winds up in court for domestic violence.

As Muslims we have the lofty standard of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh to apply in all aspects of our lives and this is how his own wife described him:
`Âishah said: “Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) never once struck a servant of his nor a woman, nor did he strike anyone with his hand.” [Sahîh Muslim (2328), Sunan Abî Dâwûd (4786), Sunan Ibn Mâjah (1984), as quoted from Sunan Ibn Mâjah]

So even if you say 'no hitting period', the 'period' is only in your imagination since the grey areas continue forever and physical contact will still occur between couples; and when it is deemed excessive by one party it will be brought before the courts and the decision will be clear as will the punishment.​

The analogy was misunderstood.

The analogy was not misunderstood, it was an awful, ludicrous and completely baseless analogy. Your pertinacious insistence on such a perverted scheme of reasoning serves you no benefit if you intend to have a productive dialogue.

I was not comparing the behaviors, which I thought I had stated. Rather I choose something that all people would find objectionable, so that maybe they could understand.

so if in my personal opinion biking is not as effective as skateboarding, should I just compare all bikers to baby-killers?!

So replace "lightly tapping of a wife" with any behavior that you find objectionable and then hopefully you can understand where I am coming from.

It doesn't work that way - the behaviour must be analogous. If I replace 'lightly tapping' with 'mass genocide' that is not a fair comparison!!

I now very clearly understand the Islamic law so I will move on.

Bravo. Hope you find other more fruitful discussions on the forum.

Regards

 

[Chuck]

5. Daraba has been described as a non-violent swat/hit that does not cause harm, nor targets the face or private parts, but is almost as mild as the strike of a miswâk (twig).

One thing I don't understand, how this kind of tapping gona have any effect on the spouse. If they are cheating, this wouldn't force them to change. The word also means part or separate. I also read somewhere in a hadiths that prophet (pbuh) tapped a companion with miswak to warn the person that he have to leave the mosque if he continues the behavior.

 

[chris4336]

One thing I don't understand, how this kind of tapping gona have any effect on the spouse. If they are cheating, this wouldn't force them to change. The word also means part or separate. I also read somewhere in a hadiths that prophet (pbuh) tapped a companion with miswak to warn the person that he have to leave the mosque if he continues the behavior.

At least I am not the only one who doesn't think its a great way of getting someone to realize the error of their ways. But Ansar said you can only use it if you think it will be effective. I would love to see that Hadith because I think it would be wonderful to see the "tapping" is not just something that women have to put up with.

Ansar - How can you even say the man won't be angry if his wife is acting with such "nasty conduct?" If he is not angry, then why does he even bother tapping her?

Since you since have absolutely no regards for unIslamic behavior let the women hit the men as well. If the men retaliate they are outside of Islam and its not your problem.

And since you are such an expert on analogies, let me remind you that you compared a religion to a car, and permission to hit your wife lightly to a "Km/h" part of that car. But I'm sure your analogy makes perfect sense to you.

 

[Chuck]

At least I am not the only one who doesn't think its a great way of getting someone to realize the error of their ways. But Ansar said you can only use it if you think it will be effective. I would love to see that Hadith because I think it would be wonderful to see the "tapping" is not just something that women have to put up with.

I don't have the hadiths, I bumped into the hadith when I was searching for another hadith. I think my point was not clear. I meant this kind of tapping can't force anyone to change, in other words, it is not something forceful. Unless it has a symbolic meaning or you go by the other meaning of the word, which is to leave/depart.

 

[chris4336]

Ah okay I misunderstood. It seems to me that Muslims think its symbolic meaning might get people to change, however I find this doubtful.
I am really in no place to respond, but I would think if a correct interpretation is "leave/depart" it wouldn't have been necessary to have this whole discussion.

 

[soulsociety]

Everyone needs to understand that Islam is not pacifism. It allows Corporal punishment at many levels, state and domestic. What's the problem with that? At least it is consistent with itself.

1. You try reasoning with her.
2. Don't sleep together.
3. Slap her, but not on the face and do not leave a mark.

I'm quite dubious about this toothbrush thing. I mean there's record of Umar(RA) giving his wife a good smack, Abu Bakr (RA) telling a man to discipline his wife and so on.