Questions about the Bible/Christianity

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If a healthy person becomes aware of the need to revert and delays the decision until an unexpected illness or accident makes their demise seem imminent, and then proclaims the Shahadah per step 1 above, does step 2 also occur? If so, would you say that the Shadadah is unjust and open to abuse?

I think I found a better answer to this than the one I gave before.

The shahadah has seven conditions, one of which is sincerity. If a person does what you are saying, then they are not sincere and risk having their shahadah being void.

I'm sure there is a better answer out their, I'll let you know if I find it!
 
I do not see why you do not think they harmonize, they are in fact in perfect harmony. No matter how much a person sins, as long as they turn to God in sincere repentance, they can be forgiven.

If even the most evil person can be forgiven upon reprenting later, you don't seem to be rewarding good and punishing evil.
 
If even the most evil person can be forgiven upon reprenting later, you don't seem to be rewarding good and punishing evil.

Exactly! A man who kills all his life and then 'sincerely repents' in islam and christianity are forgiven, a ruling that is not in Judaism because Judaism recognizes that you are accountable for your actions no matter what, and Judaism does not missionize, recruit or care for converts therefore, it does not need to "appeal" to the parts of society that have done wrong. Since recruitment is not a goal in Judaism, making concessions and preaching how you could be "forgiven" for all your sins if you join a certain religion is no where to be found in Judaism.
 
If even the most evil person can be forgiven upon reprenting later, you don't seem to be rewarding good and punishing evil.

Why not? Only Allah can forgive. If a person commits a sin that is punishable by (Islamic) law, then the person will be punished if found guilty regardless of whether or not they repent. And that punishment means they are now free of that burden of that sin.

The whole point of life it worship God. He created us as sinners and he gave us the permission to repent of our deeds. And if He finds that we are sincere in our repentance then He has every right to forgive us (on the day of Judgment).

Exactly! A man who kills all his life and then 'sincerely repents' in islam and christianity are forgiven, a ruling that is not in Judaism because Judaism recognizes that you are accountable for your actions no matter what,

So, a man who regrets what he did, is sincere, gives up the sin immediately, and will never ever do it again, does not deserve God's mercy?:rollseyes

How said we are not accountable for our actions?! Of course we are. It is a blessing and a mercy from Allah swt that he grants forgiveness to those of His slaves how deserve it. That does not change the fact that we are accountable in anyway.

By your logic, every single person in existence would have to taste the fire of hell because there is no sinless person! Where is the Mercy and Compassion?
 
So, a man who regrets what he did, is sincere, gives up the sin immediately, and will never ever do it again, does not deserve God's mercy?

Of course, but does that mean he is completly releaved of all of the sins of his past. For example, one can forgive but that does not mean the persons record is cleaned. A man who kills a baby will stand trial no matter how much he repents. Repenting and having a clean slate is a tactic used to get people who feel guilt to join a certain religion. It is preached as a tactic of prostelizing.

How said we are not accountable for our actions?! Of course we are. It is a blessing and a mercy from Allah swt that he grants forgiveness to those of His slaves how deserve it. That does not change the fact that we are accountable in anyway.

By your logic, every single person in existence would have to taste the fire of hell because there is no sinless person! Where is the Mercy and Compassion?

Correct!

In Judaism everyone tastes a little bit of "hell" called Gehenna which in reality is far from what you think of hell. Judaism says hell is a place where we are cleaned of our sins so we may enjoy heaven more, even overall good people must go to be cleaned of sins before entering heaven, yet many have so many sins, or were such terrible people they may never see heaven, it is for G-d to decide. Most sinners are said to suffer in Gehenna no longer than twelve months, but those who commit certain sins are punished forever.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=115&letter=G

The "eternal burning" hell was created by Christians and then used by Muslims later to basically scare people by saying "if you do not follow us then you will burn forever". But that is just my opinion of course. It is a smart tactic, Judaism's "non-jews who are good will be in heaven with us" tactic does not seem to get many converts because we tell them all, you don;t have to convert! G-d does not care about one religion going to heaven and all else hell! G-d cares about how you lived your life!!!!
 
Hi Jayda. :)

I do not see why you do not think they harmonize, they are in fact in perfect harmony. No matter how much a person sins, as long as they turn to God in sincere repentance, they can be forgiven.

This does NOT mean a person can sin now, and say "I will repent later" because they have not meet the conditions of repentance:

There are five essential conditions for repentance: sincerity, regret for what one has done, giving it up immediately, determination not to repeat it in the future, and repenting during the time when repentance will be accepted, i.e., before one dies or before the sun rises in the west.​

http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=1807&ln=eng

I hope that makes sense.

hola Malaikah,

so muslims have to be very sorry and commit to not doing it again during an appointed time and they are free from sin... gracias. i do not know why you think protestants believe you can be insincere...

but what i am confused about is this:

Malaikah said:
No, but the point I am making is even the most evil of Christians will not be punished! Whereas the most evil of Muslims will be punished (if they are not forgiven).

it seems like protestants and muslims believe that if you commit a sin, but later decide you are really sorry about it, you will be forgiven... through faith in God only. and it does not even matter what the sin is... like the story about the serial killer who goes to heaven did not need to do anything or offer anything to show his commitment... this is why i do not understand your confusion... i see what you are talking about and what the previous poster was talking about as basically the same thing... forgiveness through faith but not action or obedience.

answering just for Catholics at the moment... forgiveness of sin comes after a sacrement of penance which is a process, first we confess our sins and apologize, Jesus has already sacrificed himself on our behalf so we do not need to give any further sin offering (leviticus 4:3), then we must acknowledge our imperfectness and then we must do something called "penance" in which an actual act or hardship is given to us to physically demonstrate our obedience to God (since we have been disobedient).

the only way forgiveness will come is if we are honest about all the sins we have committed, truly sorry for having sinned, have a clear commitment to never doing them again, and perform the penance.

so it is identify your sin and apologize, give something up to God as a sin offering (the Lamb of God in His mercy has done this for us), acknowledge your weaknesses, and then perform penance. if this is all done with sincerity and commitment we are forgiven.

if we have not reconciled completely or at all then we may not recieve the sacrements, any of them, especially eucharist...

there are only two rites that can free you from prior sin without penance they are the rite of baptism (you become the property of God) this usually frees you from original sin but can free you from all sins if you are baptized at a later time in life...

and the annointing of the sick which includes an act of contrition... penance is still required but if somebody is unable to do penance for health reasons than it must be a "perfect contrition" (motivated by love of God, not fear of hell), and they can be forgiven.

Dios te bendiga
 
Thanks Jayda,

When I said:

No, but the point I am making is even the most evil of Christians will not be punished! Whereas the most evil of Muslims will be punished (if they are not forgiven).

That was a misunderstand because I thought dougmusr was saying that ALL Christians, no matter what they did in life, and even if they do not repent, will go to paradise just like that without being punished! Obviously that is not the case.
 
Of course, but does that mean he is completly releaved of all of the sins of his past. For example, one can forgive but that does not mean the persons record is cleaned. A man who kills a baby will stand trial no matter how much he repents. Repenting and having a clean slate is a tactic used to get people who feel guilt to join a certain religion. It is preached as a tactic of prostelizing.



Correct!

In Judaism everyone tastes a little bit of "hell" called Gehenna which in reality is far from what you think of hell. Judaism says hell is a place where we are cleaned of our sins so we may enjoy heaven more, even overall good people must go to be cleaned of sins before entering heaven, yet many have so many sins, or were such terrible people they may never see heaven, it is for G-d to decide. Most sinners are said to suffer in Gehenna no longer than twelve months, but those who commit certain sins are punished forever.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=115&letter=G

The "eternal burning" hell was created by Christians and then used by Muslims later to basically scare people by saying "if you do not follow us then you will burn forever". But that is just my opinion of course. It is a smart tactic, Judaism's "non-jews who are good will be in heaven with us" tactic does not seem to get many converts because we tell them all, you don;t have to convert! G-d does not care about one religion going to heaven and all else hell! G-d cares about how you lived your life!!!!

hola,

we believe that the greatest punishment of Hell is separation from God and that those who die in separation from God remain in that state... Hell. it comes from disbelief in Him or acts of disobedience (sins) that distance you from Him...

"fear of Hell" is considered "imperfect" if somebody is motivated by fear of Hell much more is required of them to show that their fear of Hell is not masking a latent disobedience toward God... if somebody is motivated by "love of God" which is considered perfect, that is what we are all supposed to be.

...so i think i understand what you are saying but i wanted to point out that we believe Hell is not a good place to be, but if we are doing the things God requires of us out of fear of going to Hell that is not enough and not what we are meant to be... it is not a sin... it is just not enough, complete or "perfect."

Dios te bendiga
 
Thanks Jayda,

When I said:



That was a misunderstand because I thought dougmusr was saying that ALL Christians, no matter what they did in life, and even if they do not repent, will go to paradise just like that without being punished! Obviously that is not the case.

gracias Malaikah,

i think i understand now... this is confusing for me because i am learning about two different religions at once, islam and protestantism... what dougmusr is saying is still radically different from Catholic beliefs... it is difficult sometimes because it seems like muslims talk to protestants a lot and then in turn think some things about Catholics that are not true... we are very different...

i do not think i agree with the kind of forgiveness both of you are talking about... but i will add that to my response in the why not islam thread...

Dios te bendiga
 
Why not? It is almost identical, except for the penance. I think by penance you mean something like a punishment or test presented to the person in this life rather than the next life? We have something like that to.

For example, for some sins, you have to do something special before you can be forgiven. For example, if you back bite someone, part of the expiation is that you have to apologise to the person, or if apologising makes it worse, then you have tell people something good about the person to compensate for the bad thing you said, and so forth... Also for major crimes like murder and stealing, these crimes are punished by the state, and once the person has been punished for these sins in this life, they are no longer punished for it in the next life because God does not punish a sin twice.

Also, God said that he rushes to punish the believers in this life, whereas he leaves the punishment for the non-believers in the next life, because when God punishes us (by making us go through physical pain, or grief and sorrow etc), He will not punish us in the next life, and that is a good thing because the punishment of the next life is much worse than that of this life.

AND, God only forgives sins committed against Himself. If you commit a sin against a person, and that person does not forgive you, then you have to be punished for that sin before God can forgive you because only forgives the sins that a committed against Himself, and this is a part of justice.

So, Jayda, I hope you realise that this topic is MUCH more complex than anything we have covered in this thread, I dont understand it completely, can i do not think you do either, so please do not add this the the "why not Islam" thread!
 
so i think i understand what you are saying but i wanted to point out that we believe Hell is not a good place to be, but if we are doing the things God requires of us out of fear of going to Hell that is not enough and not what we are meant to be... it is not a sin... it is just not enough, complete or "perfect."

Of course hell is not a good place to be, but in Judaism it is nessesary to go through it to cleanse yourself of your sins. But eventually most common people will reach heaven as long as they lived overall good lives. The Rabbi's have debated for years if one can be an idol worshiper and live a good life, and it is an interesting topic.
 
Why not? It is almost identical, except for the penance. I think by penance you mean something like a punishment or test presented to the person in this life rather than the next life? We have something like that to.

For example, for some sins, you have to do something special before you can be forgiven. For example, if you back bite someone, part of the expiation is that you have to apologise to the person, or if apologising makes it worse, then you have tell people something good about the person to compensate for the bad thing you said, and so forth... Also for major crimes like murder and stealing, these crimes are punished by the state, and once the person has been punished for these sins in this life, they are no longer punished for it in the next life because God does not punish a sin twice.

Also, God said that he rushes to punish the believers in this life, whereas he leaves the punishment for the non-believers in the next life, because when God punishes us (by making us go through physical pain, or grief and sorrow etc), He will not punish us in the next life, and that is a good thing because the punishment of the next life is much worse than that of this life.

AND, God only forgives sins committed against Himself. If you commit a sin against a person, and that person does not forgive you, then you have to be punished for that sin before God can forgive you because only forgives the sins that a committed against Himself, and this is a part of justice.

So, Jayda, I hope you realise that this topic is MUCH more complex than anything we have covered in this thread, I dont understand it completely, can i do not think you do either, so please do not add this the the "why not Islam" thread!

hola Malaikah,

gracias for your patience, i am very grateful for your attempts to explain this important and difficult concept to me... you are correct i do not understand it completely, i am becomming more confused every time i think i understand...

i do not know how you could not understand atonement completely... one part of the purpose of life, as i think muslims also believe, is to follow the things God said we must do... He created us so the things He tells us to do must be the things we were made to do... i think this is just part of the universal human experience...

when we do not do these things we must atone for them, and even then christians believe there is a way to do this that God demands from us... admitting we have offended Him, giving something up as a gift or offering (which has been done already for us), turning away from sin with heart and action, and performing a penance to reimbalance the effect of our original Sin...

it is essential for us to reconcile with God because we belong to Him... but we cannot reconcile with God if there is no clear way for us to do so... if it is left to our own imaginations we could justify our sins or fall into deeper sin... so there must be a more simple explanation for repentance in islam... maybe something you follow without thinking about it? or a doctrine maybe... i think maybe in great detail it is complicated but if you could perhaps give me the essence of repentance that would be very helpful...

i do not see the relationship between God punishing you in this life instead of the next... and penance, which is apologetic in nature. i did not get a chance to properly explain before but penance is "a work of satisfaction enjoined upon the recipient of the sacrament," it is something that is done for the "satisfaction" of God, which is meant to please Him and do good above what good is expected of us directly for the sake of trying to offset our wrong. by the time you are actually doing your penance you have already been forgiven (but the forgiveness is revoked if you do not go through with the penance you promised, it signifies you were ingenuous).

so it is not something that is meant as a punishment... you are not supposed to do it with a heavy heart like you have been punished, but instead with happyness you are being given an opportunity to physically make up for what you have done.

_______________________________________________________________

i do not see what is identical about these two religions... certain aspects are similar but from what you have explained the kind of atonement islam calls for is very incomplete in the eyes of the Church...

what i am not seeing in Islam, and perhaps if you could just explain further it could help, is very much action, though i kind of see some... we believe our forgiveness comes through faith and action, faith includes confessing our sins to God and being truly sorry for them, and making promises to not do them again and to complete a penance, and action comes through making an offering to God, literally giving something up to Him (since our sins are so great the Lamb of God has already been offered... nothing additional is necessary here), and performing a penance to do something good in action to counteract the bad we have done...

then our promise of forgiveness is truly fulfilled... so it is words and actions...

what you seem to be saying is that if you are very sorry, and have faith in God then you will be forgiven (which i think is what the protestants here said... i think) but muslims should expect (and maybe be greatful for) trials, tests and punishments from God... here on earth... for our sins, even though we have been forgiven, so that the punishment after is not as great...

so the action is really something that God puts upon you as a punishment... even after you have confessed which means you are forgiven, it is not something you are choosing to do to make things right with God...

but i am still very confused, i do not understand how you can have faith in God and be forgiven but still be punished on earth so you are not punished in heaven... when you are forgiven isnt that supposed to be the end of it?

maybe this deserves its own thread instead of being discussed here on the why not islam thread...

Dios te bendiga
 
I ASKED dougmusr whether all Christians will go to Heaven no matter what and he said yes, it is not my fault if he mislead me!

I gave a short and long answer, sorry if you feel misled.

All people sin, all will die as sinners, and all will die either forgiven or unforgiven. Those who die perfectly sinless or forgiven will be in heaven, those who die imperfect and unforgiven will be in hell. Forgiveness must be obtained while alive.

People generally consider themselves as good people because they measure themselves against other people, and one only has to read the news paper to know that there are horrendous crimes comitted daily. God does not measure people against other people. God measures people against His standard.

The Bible does not teach that God forgives on a point system by allowing one to offset a sin with a corresponding good deed.

So to both Jayda and Malaikah, lets say both of you died today and had a sin or sins for which you had not sought God's forgiveness and done penance prior to your untimely demise. Can you give me an idea of which sins you could commit and enter Heaven, and which sins would require Hell?
 
Thanks for clarifying.

I can't answer your question directly, but in Islam, there are two types on sin, minor and major.

The minor sins are forgiven more easily. For example, the five daily prayers wipe out the minor sins committed (one prayer wipes out the sins committed in the time between thay prayer and the one before it). Fasting the whole month of Ramadan wipes out all a persons minor sins... etc So if you go to God with these sins on the Day of Judgment, then he might forgive them of punish them.

If you're not forgiven of the major sins that you committed in this life (i.e. you did not repent and you didn't take the prescribed punishment) then well, I would take to be that person on the DOJ. :X It is upto God what He does for them, and that depends on the persons circumstances etc.

I can't give you a better answer than that on this, because I am not too knowledgeable in this area, perhaps someone else can...
 
what i am not seeing in Islam, and perhaps if you could just explain further it could help, is very much action, though i kind of see some... we believe our forgiveness comes through faith and action, faith includes confessing our sins to God and being truly sorry for them, and making promises to not do them again and to complete a penance, and action comes through making an offering to God, literally giving something up to Him (since our sins are so great the Lamb of God has already been offered... nothing additional is necessary here), and performing a penance to do something good in action to counteract the bad we have done...

Am totally confused, so you made an offering, well God offered himself to be killed by people, so he is punished for you, and that is neccessary, as in that is enough, so why would you need to perform penance to do something good in action to counteract the bad you done? Is the sacrafise of God only for some sins and the rest you have to do pennance for yourself?

Eesa


God measures people against His standard.

The standard being that any type of sin, small or big or tiny or even lying to save your life or kids or even not stoning someone = Death?

If even the most evil person can be forgiven upon reprenting later, you don't seem to be rewarding good and punishing evil.

Well that depends on how you view things, in our view the rejecting or acceptance of God Almighty may not be a great thing, it might be seen as a trivial thing, with comments like 'Oh so and so embraced Christianity' or 'Oh So and so embraced Islam' whilst these things may not seem great, these things are great in the sight of God. The Kalimah, the testimony of faith is one of the heaviest things on the scales of deeds, whilst it is only a sentance of words. For example, look at how Allah tells Muslims and non-Muslims that the mountains are about to shatter because Christians ascribe to Him a son,

YUSUFALI: They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!"
YUSUFALI: Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!
YUSUFALI: At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin,
YUSUFALI: That they should invoke a son for (Allah) Most Gracious.

Surah 19:88-91

So it is clear that what we might think is trivial might be a big thing in the view of God, and when we ponder then how big of a thing it is, to deny the one who created you and made you and provides for you and so forth. So yes, someone might be forgiven when they repent sincerly since repentance is a big matter, at the same time killing and taking of life is too, but repentance is something which is more 'heavy' for lack of better words, but repentance would also mean that the person would try to make right what he done wrong. Such punishments could occour, for example the fact that people will repay others from their good deeds on the day of Judgement for wrongdoing they have done to others.

Exactly! A man who kills all his life and then 'sincerely repents' in islam and christianity are forgiven, a ruling that is not in Judaism because Judaism recognizes that you are accountable for your actions no matter what,..

So if a person does not know a law is it right for him to be accountable for what he has done?
 
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”Ironbeard” said:
7. Jesus said that he had not come to change the Law of Moses (Matthew 5:17). The Law of Moses teaches that there is one God (Exodus 20:3). If Jesus was introducing the concept of Trinity, why did he not say that he was changing the Law of Moses or introducing a different understanding of it?

Hola Ironbeard,

These are the two quotes you referred to:
Matthew 5: 17 said:
“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.”

And

Exodus 20: 3 said:
”You shall have no other gods before Me.”

Matthew 5: 17 is about “Old Law” and “New Law,” the Law and the Prophets Jesus was talking about represented the Old Law, but his commandments, ministry, life and brought the “New Law.” Catholics consider the Old Law to be “imperfect” and “incomplete” because of what is said in Matthew 5: 17.

We believe that the Old Law found justification in men, through “the flesh” while the new law finds justification through “the Spirit” (of God), through Christ. This is what is meant in Romans 8:3-4 by:

Romans 8:3-4 said:
”For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

St. Thomas Aquinas explains in the Summa Theologica that the imperfection of the Old Law was fulfilled in Christ through his works and through his doctrines.

”St. Thomas Aquinas” said:
“In His works, because He was willing to be circumcised and to fulfill the other legal observances, which were binding for the time being; according to Gal. 4:4: "Made under the Law."

In His doctrine He fulfilled the precepts of the Law in three ways.

First, by explaining the true sense of the Law. This is clear in the case of murder and adultery, the prohibition of which the Scribes and Pharisees thought to refer only to the exterior act: wherefore Our Lord fulfilled the Law by showing that the prohibition extended also to the interior acts of sins.

Secondly, Our Lord fulfilled the precepts of the Law by prescribing the safest way of complying with the statutes of the Old Law. Thus the Old Law forbade perjury: and this is more safely avoided, by abstaining altogether from swearing, save in cases of urgency.

Thirdly, Our Lord fulfilled the precepts of the Law, by adding some counsels of perfection: this is clearly seen in Mt. 19:21, where Our Lord said to the man who affirmed that he had kept all the precepts of the Old Law: "One thing is wanting to thee: If thou wilt be perfect, go, sell whatsoever thou hast," etc. (St. Thomas combines Mt. 19:21 with Mk. 10:21.”)

So we believe he literally was the epitome of the Law, everything he was doing was the way adherence to the Law was meant to be performed. We also believe the counsels he gave and the explanations of the “true sense” or meaning of the Law were how they were always meant to be understood. So in that way Jesus perfected and fulfilled the imperfect unfulfilled Law.

This is why we do not say Jesus “introduced” ideas like the theological nature of God, or casting the first stone, or the Golden Rule, or not judging. These things might not have been known well to those who practiced the Old Law, or may not have been spoken and practiced before but they were always at the heart of the Law. So we say that Jesus revealed the true understanding and practice of these laws and thereby fulfilled it.

To put it shortly there is no contradiction between Exodus 20:3 and Matthew 28:19 or Exodus 20:3 and John 10: 30, it is the same law, same command but the perfect and complete understanding of it. Not a modification, a clarification…

So here is your question again

”Ironbeard” said:
7. Jesus said that he had not come to change the Law of Moses (Matthew 5:17). The Law of Moses teaches that there is one God (Exodus 20:3). If Jesus was introducing the concept of Trinity, why did he not say that he was changing the Law of Moses or introducing a different understanding of it?

And my answer is that the continuation of the verse says that while he is not “abolishing” the Law or the Prophets, he is “fulfilling” them. Romans explains that the way we practice the Law is different because it has been made perfect in Christ…

I think what is confusing you is that you have mistaken “abolish” which means do away with, for “introducing a new understanding” or “altering.” Because the correct interpretation shows that Jesus is saying exactly what you are suggesting he should have said: why did he not say that he was changing the Law of Moses or introducing a different understanding of it?.

The Old Law still stands, but it is fulfilled in Christ… that makes it perfect and so naturally the Law appears different in practice after its perfection in Christ than it did before it. This is why Triunity is actually how “the One God” is meant to be theologically thought of (singular and unified in Three), whereas this might not have been known or known as well before Jesus.

Dios te bendiga
 
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I gave a short and long answer, sorry if you feel misled.

All people sin, all will die as sinners, and all will die either forgiven or unforgiven. Those who die perfectly sinless or forgiven will be in heaven, those who die imperfect and unforgiven will be in hell. Forgiveness must be obtained while alive.

People generally consider themselves as good people because they measure themselves against other people, and one only has to read the news paper to know that there are horrendous crimes comitted daily. God does not measure people against other people. God measures people against His standard.

The Bible does not teach that God forgives on a point system by allowing one to offset a sin with a corresponding good deed.

So to both Jayda and Malaikah, lets say both of you died today and had a sin or sins for which you had not sought God's forgiveness and done penance prior to your untimely demise. Can you give me an idea of which sins you could commit and enter Heaven, and which sins would require Hell?

hola Dougmusr,

there are three kinds of sins in order of importance: The Unforgiveable Sin, Mortal Sins and Venial Sins.

the first two you will go to hell (or in the case of mortal sins there is a possibility of purgatory), venial sins do not result in ****ation... they are sins in which it does not concern a grave matter, it is not committed in full knowledge that what you are doing is sinful, and it is not committed with deliberate and complete consent... if you have enough you might still go to purgatory but that is only temporarily while you are perfected to go to heaven (a sinless state and place).

if you do something grave, intentionally knowing it is a sin, or with deliberate and full consent it is a mortal sin which you must confess for... if you do not you certainly risk purgatory and might still possibly hell... a killer for example who kills deliberately and does not go through the process of confession (including penance) will most likely go to hell...

the Unforgiveable Sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit... Jesus Himself said that there is no pardon for this...

Dios te bendiga
 
This is what troubles me most about the three monotheistic religions. The notion that whatever God does is Just and Right BECAUSE he is God. Please correct me if that is not the notion being presented here.

I have seen it elsewhere.

It is frightening.

It shows a complete lack of morality independent from the religious belief. I have a very hard time believing that even the most hard core religionists could have no morals independent of their God beliefs. Surely even they have some independent values. Don't they?

I do get nervous about this when I see them killing people and doing horrible things in the name of their God. Maybe they don't... that is a very scary thought. For if true, then all that has to happen is for them to be convinced that God wants them to do a horrible act, and they'll do it.

Well the god we worship has 99 attributes, and a god with those attributes by definition is right in what he does.

At the end of the day we'll all return to him, so its either we play by his rules and endup in paradise, or challenge him and endup in hell for ever.

Think of what i said from the perspective of someone who believes in god, not an athiest. Otherwise you'll just confuse yourself.

About accusing people of killing others in name of god, ever clicked that the Muslims in the country you live in don't do that, or in any other country that's not in war :?

Back to topic i guess...
 
Merciful and forgiving? No. I think not.

This is the same God that sends you to hell with no chance of parole simply for not believing in him. That isn't merciful. And it isn't forgiving, given the lack of being able to leave Hell once yer sent there.

Merciful to those who seek his help and forgiveness.
Forgiving to those who ask for his forgiveness.
Just to everyone, including to those who disbelieve in him.

The 2nd paragraph, kind alike a serial killer goin around killing people and then saying 'the system isn't merciful, it's not forgiving', because there's no chance of leaving jail once i'm sent there.

In your case, you refuse to even read the quran (as you admitted in another thread) , and then make false claims about the creator, and lie about him, and then expect to escape punishment :rollseyes
 
hola Dougmusr,

there are three kinds of sins in order of importance: The Unforgiveable Sin, Mortal Sins and Venial Sins.

the first two you will go to hell (or in the case of mortal sins there is a possibility of purgatory), venial sins do not result in ****ation... they are sins in which it does not concern a grave matter, it is not committed in full knowledge that what you are doing is sinful, and it is not committed with deliberate and complete consent... if you have enough you might still go to purgatory but that is only temporarily while you are perfected to go to heaven (a sinless state and place).

if you do something grave, intentionally knowing it is a sin, or with deliberate and full consent it is a mortal sin which you must confess for... if you do not you certainly risk purgatory and might still possibly hell... a killer for example who kills deliberately and does not go through the process of confession (including penance) will most likely go to hell...

the Unforgiveable Sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit... Jesus Himself said that there is no pardon for this...

Dios te bendiga


Here we see a point at which there is some difference in the teaching of respective Christians groups. The view experessed by Jayda is indeed the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church. But it is not just Roman Catholic. There are even some Protestants who speak of the "Seven Deadly Sins". So, the idea that there are big sin and lesser sins is common in many religions and is even present in some parts of Christianity.

For myself, I see all sin (yes, even the litte, venial sins) as sin. Now the whole concept of sin is pretty broad. It embraces the entire gamut of human failure as expressed above. And in scripture there are several different words used to express the concept.

The most general of those words in the New Testament is hamartia. hamartia is used in regard to offenses against morals and laws (whether humankind's law or God's law). hamartia is derived from the classical Greek (people like Homer to Aristotle) word hamartano and originally meant to miss, as in miss the mark when aiming at a target.

When the Jews, 200 years before the time of Jesus, translated their scriptures from Hebrew into Greek, they also used the word hamartia as a way to speak about sin. They in particular used hamartia to translate the Hebrew word hatta't which was used to describe one who lapses, and they also used hamartia to translate the Hebrew word 'awon which referred to a conscious deviation from the right way and the concept of rebellion, specifically rebellion against God. Here we see the idea that sin then is something that separates an individual or even a whole nation from God. Who is it then that determines what is sin and what is not sin? The same one who determines what is and what is not the standard of righteousness -- God. God is the yardstick, not humans, not our comparisons with one another as some being not as bad as others. God is the yardstick of what is right and what is wrong.

In the New Testament this concept is further developed. Jesus speaks about the forgiveness of this short-coming in people. But for Jesus sin is not just that which comes from breaking a law or a command, it is anything that falls short of being the person God wants us to be. Yet it is to imperfect people just like this that Jesus comes to bring and announce God's forgiveness.


Another word that is used in the New Testament to talk about sin is the Greek word adikia. To understand the connotations to this word one must contrast it with dikaios meaning just or righteous (the a at the front of a Greek word unfunctioning much like the prefix "un-" does in English) so that adikia means unrighteous.

Thus, sinners are those who do not do what is right in God's eyes, they fall short of God's standard, they even rebell against God seeking their own way as if their way were the law, the standard of right and wrong; when of course God sets the standard of right and wrong, not us humans.

As such, in my opinion, there really are no big and little sins. Either you are living up to what God desires or you are not. True, some fall far more short of God's view of righteous behavior than others. But when trying to jump the gap between human imperfection and divine perfection, falling short by an inch is as deadly as falling short by a mile. Thus, though human may speak of big and little sins (i.e. big and little misses of the mark God has set for us), both sets of individuals end up having fallen short of God's expectations of righteousness and both miss the mark. And both can be described by the same word -- sinner. And as we have seen above, a sinner is one who is separated from God.

The only good news in this is what I described above of how Jesus came with a message of forgiveness and God's acceptance inspite of our moral failure. That message was that God wanted to be united though we were/are neither perfect nor righteous. In the Gospel accounts, it is those (the scribes and the pharisees and the teachers of the law) who reject Jesus' message and trust in their own righteousness rather than God's gift of forgiveness that are left unforgiven.

As far as the "Unforgivable Sin", this is it. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, doesn't come in cursing God. It comes from walking away from the forgiveness offered to us and trusting in our own righteousness. In other words it isn't by the things we do that Christians (or anyone) gets to heaven. It is a gracious gift of God, and trusting in him to be gracious and forgiving of our falling short of his standard, but still striving to meet it as best as we can, is the key to salvation. Christians believe that means trusting in Jesus, but that part of the discussion is for other parts of this thread, not in answer to the present questions.
 

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