Questions about Judaism answered by a Jew!

[Grace Seeker]

I'm sorry, but I do not believe we will be able to hold a discussion on this topic anylonger if your qualifications for a source includes refering to our great patriarchs as "muslims" which they certainly were not.

A Muslim adheres to Islam, and one cannot adhere to Islam by simply "submitting to G-d". They must follow the Quran and your Hadiths if I am not correct, and follow the "Fatwahs" of your leaders. Therefore, Moshe was not a Muslim nor were any of the patriarchs.

Until then, have a good day, I will try to get online sometime soon during my vacation with my family.

With respect Rav, while I agree with your regarding your assessment of how the patriarchs could not have been Muslim, as defined today certainly not, they could not have been Jewish either, for that terms derives from Jacob's son Judah and the patriarchs were all ancestors, not descendants, of Judah. The patriarchs were, well, the patriarchs.

 

[IzakHalevas]

as defined today certainly not, they could not have been Jewish either, for that terms derives from Jacob's son Judah and the patriarchs were all ancestors, not descendants of Judah. The patriarchs were, well, the patriarchs.

Actually you are wrong. The term "Judaism" as in reference to "Judah" was created by the english language. Both the Kingdom of Israel and the Kingdom of Judah both followed the Torah at certain point in their history. In Hebrew the original language of the Torah and the people the word for Judaism was "Yehudi". If you are not aware what the word "Yehudi" means then I will quote what a previous Jewish poster has already answered here in this thread:

The word "Jew" comes from the word "Yehudi" in Hebrew.

The Talmud (Megillah 13a) says that the name Yehudi applies to anyone who rejects idolatry and follows/recongnizes that there is one true G-d and the laws he has given us are in the Torah (uncorrupted ).

The word "Hodaah," which is the root of the word Yehudi (and Yehudah), means to acknowledge.


So Judaism in Hebrew means to acknowledge one true G-d.

The name "Yehudi" or Jew was also used to describe a descendant from the Ancient Hebrews who became the Jews when the Torah was recieved at Mt. Sinai.

http://www.islamicboard.com/471180-post422.html

Therefore, although the term for "Jew" can be decieving, it is not the word for a follower of "Judaism". That word would be "Yehudi", as it is still called in Hebrew. Especially since many Iranian Jews, and other Jews from "India" which seem to be from the old tribes who formed the Kingdom of Israel have abo****ly no relation to the tribe of Judah, at all.

The Ethiopian Jews, recongnized as Jews from the tribe Dan are not called followers of "Danism", they are Jews, who are "Yehudi" like all other Jews, once you remove the deceptive tag the English language has given us.

 

[Abu Zakariya]

A Muslim adheres to Islam, and one cannot adhere to Islam by simply "submitting to G-d". They must follow the Quran and your Hadiths if I am not correct, and follow the "Fatwahs" of your leaders. Therefore, Moshe was not a Muslim nor were any of the patriarchs.

Moses ('alayhi salam) and his followers were supposed to adhere to the Torah and the Shari'ah that was revealed to him. If he had lived at this time, however, he would have been obliged to follow the Qur'an and the Shari'ah of the Prophet Muhammad (sall Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam). So the Muslims at that time didn't have to follow the Shari'ah of Islam (which are derived from the Qur'an and hadiths), since it hadn't been revealed yet.
What we mean when we say that he was a Muslim is that he submitted to God and did what God told him to do. We never said that he followed the Shari'ah of Muhammad (sall Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam).

By the way, the Fatwas are to be followed if they are in line with the Qur'an and Sunnah. Not following a particular fatwa doesn't necessarily make you a non-Muslim.

 

[IzakHalevas]

Moses ('alayhi salam) and his followers were supposed to adhere to the Torah and the Shari'ah that was revealed to him. If he had lived at this time, however, he would have been obliged to follow the Qur'an and the Shari'ah of the Prophet Muhammad (sall Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam). So the Muslims at that time didn't have to follow the Shari'ah of Islam (which are derived from the Qur'an and hadiths), since it hadn't been revealed yet.
What we mean when we say that he was a Muslim is that he submitted to God and did what God told him to do. We never said that he followed the Shari'ah of Muhammad (sall Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam).

By the way, the Fatwas are to be followed if they are in line with the Qur'an and Sunnah. If you don't follow a particular fatwa, that doesn't make you a non-Muslim.

I'm sorry, that is unrelated and I kindly ask you to enter a question into your post as well to keep your post on topic.

We differ in views there, but I believe there is no way you can consider Moshe a Muslim. Moshe preached never starting a new religion, and Moshe Rabeinu came from the line of Isaac and the Israelites (Hebrews) therefore, he was a JEW, since even someone from that line who was born a Jew but converts to Budhism, is still considered a Jew. Basically, if you are born of a Jewish mother, you are still a Jew no matter what you believe, unless you in front of a lot of witnesses declare you do not believe in G-d or you worship idols ect.

If Moshe our Teacher was an Ishmaelite then you possibly have an argument, but he didn't therefore, he was a Jew, and you really don't have an argument except for your scriptures which Jews do not accept.

 

[Abu Zakariya]

We differ in views there, but I believe there is no way you can consider Moshe a Muslim. Moshe preached never starting a new religion, and Moshe Rabeinu came from the line of Isaac and the Israelites (Hebrews) therefore, he was a JEW, since even someone from that line who was born a Jew but converts to Budhism, is still considered a Jew. Basically, if you are born of a Jewish mother, you are still a Jew no matter what you believe, unless you in front of a lot of witnesses declare you do not believe in G-d or you worship idols ect.

We believe that Moses ('alayhi salam) was a Prophet who reveiced revelation from God and submitted to His command. That is what makes him a Muslim.

Noone has ever claimed that Moses (alayhi salam) followed the Shari'ah of Muhammad (sall Allahu 'alayhi sallam), and if we had claimed that then you would have a point. But we haven't said that.

This could be a definition of a Muslim that we apply to Moses (alayhi salam):
He followed the law that God had obliged him to follow and submitted to His command.

If Moshe our Teacher was an Ishmaelite then you possibly have an argument, but he didn't therefore, he was a Jew, and you really don't have an argument except for your scriptures which Jews do not accept.

I never said that Moses ('alayhi salam) was an Ishamelite or an Arab. I never claimed that he wasn't from the Bani Israel. This is a red herring and a logical fallacy.

Moses (alayhi salam) was indeed from the Bani Israel and he wasn't an Arab. But he was a Muslim in the sense that he submitted to God, not in the sense that he followed the Shari'ah of Muhammad (sall Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam).

I'm sorry, that is unrelated and I kindly ask you to enter a question into your post as well to keep your post on topic.

I respect your wish that you keep this a Q&A-thread, but if someone is going to spread misinformation about Islam in this thread, you can't seriously excpet us to not protest? In this case, it was implied that Muslims claim that Moses ('alayhi salam) was a Muslim in the sense that he followed the Shari'ah of this nation (derived from the Qur'an and hadiths), but that isn't true.

But okay, I'll ask a question:

Is that the name of Maimonides in your signature (Imran Musa ibn Maymun ibn Abdullah al-Qurtubi al-Israily)?

 

[IzakHalevas]

We believe that Moses ('alayhi salam) was a Prophet who reveiced revelation from God and submitted to His command. That is what makes him a Muslim.

Noone has ever claimed that Moses (alayhi salam) followed the Shari'ah of Muhammad (sall Allahu 'alayhi sallam), and if we had claimed that then you would have a point. But we haven't said that.

This is our definition of a Muslim that we apply to Moses (alayhi salam):
He followed the law that God had obliged him to follow and submitted to His command.

Fair enough. You will just have to respect that my religion believes different and all the answers I have given are the opinion of Judaism, with I am sorry to say no considerations to what Muslims believe since that really isn't part of the topic.

I never said that Moses ('alayhi salam) was an Ishamelite or an Arab. I never claimed that he wasn't from the Bani Israel. This is a red herring and a logical fallacy.

Moses (alayhi salam) was indeed from the Bani Israel and he wasn't an Arab. But he was a Muslim in the sense that he submitted to God, not in the sense that he followed the Shari'ah of Muhammad (sall Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam).

It really isn't a logical fallacy as you suggest because his tribal relations makes him a Jew in the sense of the Jewish definition for a Jew. Judaism is a people that one can convert to but never leave.

Someone is a jew if they convert to Islam because they were born a Jew, just like one cannot change being black and convert away. The only difference is that one can convert to being Jewish and one cannot convert to being black, (I converted to Judaism).

I respect your wish that you keep this a Q&A-thread, but if someone is going to spread misinformation about Islam in this thread, you can't seriously excpet us to not protest? In this case, it was implied that Muslims claim that Moses ('alayhi salam) was a Muslim in the sense that he followed the Shari'ah of this nation (derived from the Qur'an and hadiths), but that isn't true.

You might have to accept that in a thread explaining Jewish views, there will be many views and posts that are contrary to Muslim belief.

Is that the name of Maimonides in your signature (Imran Musa ibn Maymun ibn Abdullah al-Qurtubi al-Israily)?

Yes. Do you speak Arabic?

 

[Abu Zakariya]

Fair enough. You will just have to respect that my religion believes different and all the answers I have given are the opinion of Judaism, with I am sorry to say no considerations to what Muslims believe since that really isn't part of the topic.

I do respect that and that isn't what I objected to.

It really isn't a logical fallacy as you suggest because his tribal relations makes him a Jew in the sense of the Jewish definition for a Jew. Judaism is a people that one can convert to but never leave.

It is a logical fallacy because I didn't claim otherwise. I didn't say that he wasn't a Jew. I said that he was a Prophet of God and submitted to His command. If the word "Muslim" is so offensive, just replace it with the above desprictption of what we consider a Muslim.

Someone is a jew if they convert to Islam because they were born a Jew, just like one cannot change being black and convert away. The only difference is that one can convert to being Jewish and one cannot convert to being black, (I converted to Judaism).

Again, I haven't claimed otherwise. Muslim doesn't equal Arab. I'm not an Arab.

You might have to accept that in a thread explaining Jewish views, there will be many views and posts that are contrary to Muslim belief.

Yes, but a misrepresentation of Muslim beliefs is an entirely different thing.

Yes. Do you speak Arabic?

Well, I read and write Arabic and I have some basic knowledge, but I'm still a student of the language.

Do you have a link where I can information about Jews in Turkey, and their leaders etc? Or maybe you can tell me about your personal experience about the Jewish community there?

 

[IzakHalevas]

It is a logical fallacy because I didn't claim otherwise. I didn't say that he wasn't a Jew. I said that he was a Prophet of God and submitted to His command. If the word "Muslim" is so offensive, just replace it with the above desprictption of what we consider a Muslim.

Fair enough, so you are saying he was a practcing Jew, and a Muslim. :rollseyes

Your belief, and I can't change that, but it is not mine.

Do you have a link where I can information about Jews in Turkey, and their leaders etc? Or maybe you can tell me about your personal experience about the Jewish community there?

http://www.sephardicstudies.org/harav.html
http://www.sephardicstudies.org/akhisar.html
http://www.mersina.com/lib/turkish_jews/history/life.htm
http://www.mersina.com/lib/turkish_jews/history/today.htm
http://www.anatolia.com/anatolia/History/judaism.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Turkey
http://www.ataa.org/ataa/ref/jewish/jew-history.html
http://www.allaboutturkey.com/jews.htm

What kind of story would you like? I converted in Turkey and actually had the honor of studying under the Grand Rabbi for a little bit (i still have much to learn), who my "user name" is named after.

 

[Abu Zakariya]

Fair enough, so you are saying he was a practcing Jew, and a Muslim. :rollseyes

Your belief, and I can't change that, but it is not mine.

He was ethnically Jewish. But following the Torah at that time would make someone a Muslim in the sense that one is following the law of God and submitting to His will. Muslim = someone who submits to God (a monotheist who follows the law of God).
You can be from the Jewish people and still fall under this description. In this era, you would have to follow the last Prophet Muhammad (sall Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam). At the time of Moses ('alayhi salam), you would have to follow him and the Torah.

This is my belief. I know you believe otherwise. I'm not that dumb.

Can you tell me a bit about Izak Halevas? His biography, etcetera.

 

[IzakHalevas]

Can you tell me a bit about Izak Halevas? His biography, etcetera.

I do not know much about him, he is very wise, but have never really had personal discussions with him.

He became the "fill in" Chief rabbi of Tukey after Rav Asseo died in 2002.

New York Times - David Asseo, the chief rabbi of the tiny Jewish community in Turkey, who strove for decades to buttress tolerance among the different religions there, died on July 14 in Istanbul, where he lived. He was 88. At his death he was the longest serving of the chief rabbis in Europe, with 40 years as chief rabbi and spiritual leader, and was a former secretary of the Conference of European Rabbis. He was a Sephardic Jew, as are most of Turkey's Jews, descended from ancestors who were expelled from Spain in the late 1400's. The half-dozen languages he knew included Ladino, a variant of Spanish with words borrowed from other tongues. According to the Chief Rabbinate's office in Istanbul, there are 22,000 Jews in Turkey, a country of about 65 million people.

Rabbi Asseo was born in Istanbul and attended schools in Haskoy, the city's Jewish quarter. In 1933 he graduated from a Jewish school on the Greek island of Rhodes with a diploma qualifying him to teach Hebrew and Jewish religious subjects. His subsequent career largely reflected his community's needs as a diminutive minority. He was active in educational institutions that reaffirmed their pupils' and students' Jewish heritage. In 1933 he began teaching at schools in Istanbul. He went on to teach Hebrew at the Jewish High School. After completing his military service, in 1936 he was named a member of the Bet Din, or rabbinical court, later becoming its secretary as well as private secretary to Chief Rabbi Rafael Saban. In 1955, Rabbi Asseo also became headmaster of an academy of Jewish learning in Haskoy of which he was co-founder. He was elected chief rabbi by Turkey's Jewish community after the death of Rabbi Saban in 1960 and started his duties on Dec. 9, 1961.

As the years passed, he conferred with successive leaders of the Turkish government, cabinet ministers, lesser government figures and leaders of political parties. He also stayed in touch with high-ranking figures in Islam, Roman Catholicism and the Greek and Armenian minorities in Turkey. Turkey's prime minister, Bulent Ecevit, said after the chief rabbi died that he "was a fine clergyman who always defended interreligious understanding and served for the peoples' happiness." In 1997, Rabbi Asseo wrote, "Throughout the years that I have served as chief rabbi in the Turkish Republic, I can state without hesitation that all religions have been practiced in our country freely and unhindered."


And yet terrorists, thought to be Palestinians, killed a score of Jewish worshipers and themselves in Istanbul's largest synagogue, Neve Shalom, in 1986. Rabbi Asseo's deputy, Rabbi Isak Haleva, is to fill in as chief rabbi until a new one is elected. (He still holds this position today as no one has elected a new one because he has done well) Rabbi Asseo's wife died before him. He is survived by two daughters and two grandsons.

http://www.sephardiccouncil.org/sages/asseo.html


Here is a picture of Izak:
http://sephardicjournal.org/hahambashi.html

 

[YusufNoor]

I'm sorry, but I do not believe we will be able to hold a discussion on this topic anylonger if your qualifications for a source includes refering to our great patriarchs as "muslims" which they certainly were not.

A Muslim adheres to Islam, and one cannot adhere to Islam by simply "submitting to G-d". They must follow the Quran and your Hadiths if I am not correct, and follow the "Fatwahs" of your leaders. Therefore, Moshe was not a Muslim nor were any of the patriarchs.

Until then, have a good day, I will try to get online sometime soon during my vacation with my family.

Assalamu 'alaykum,

A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

Shalom rav & Izak

Astaghfirullah! that's what i get for posting when i'm tired! i didn't mean to roast anyone's cherios this morning.

a "Muslim" would be defined as one who believes in the One True G-d, His Angels and Messengers, His revealed Scriptures, the Day of Resurrection and in Divine Preordainment! i'm pretty sure the Patriarchs fit the classification!


ANYONE calling the Patriarchs Jews would have to be "rewriting" history!

kind of like this:

The word "Jew" comes from the word "Yehudi" in Hebrew.

The Talmud (Megillah 13a) says that the name Yehudi applies to anyone who rejects idolatry and follows/recongnizes that there is one true G-d and the laws he has given us are in the Torah (uncorrupted ).

The word "Hodaah," which is the root of the word Yehudi (and Yehudah), means to acknowledge.


So Judaism in Hebrew means to acknowledge one true G-d.

The name "Yehudi" or Jew was also used to describe a descendant from the Ancient Hebrews who became the Jews when the Torah was recieved at Mt. Sinai.

the Talmud WASN'T in existance until AFTER the Babylonian captivity! at THAT time, the "folks of Judeae" were the ONLY ones still following the Torah, so OF COURSE they would use that term in describing a Jew. i'll wager that term was NEVER used to describe BOTH the nation of Israel & the nation of Judah, EVER!

by YOUR definition, which i don't agree with by the way, the Patriarchs COULDN'T have been Jews because the didn't follow the revealed, uncorrupted Torah! ergo, a Muslim, in it's TRUE sense, is a better term!

also, from a non-Jewish perspective, a Jew is someone who constantly REJECTS G-d and His Commandments. the Tanakh is FULL of examples of this. [i'm NOT saying that Jews aren't NOW trying to follow what they can of Scripture, but right up until the Common Era, there's alot of evidence to show idolatry on a national level; not mention the Tanakh reporting of their "slaying the Prophets!" !]

Peace,



Yusuf

 

[IzakHalevas]

the Talmud WASN'T in existance until AFTER the Babylonian captivity!

What on earth would give you that idea? The Oral Law was given to us, with the written law. The Written Torah is not complete without the Oral Torah. The Gemora or commentary of the Mishna which is the Oral law, was written later, but the Mishna was certainly in existance before Babylon. Would you like to rethink your answer?

by YOUR definition, which i don't agree with by the way, the Patriarchs COULDN'T have been Jews because the didn't follow the revealed, uncorrupted Torah! ergo, a Muslim, in it's TRUE sense, is a better term!

They didn't follow the uncorrupted Torah? Of course they did. Since the Torah continues to be uncorrupted, I follow the uncorrupted Torah. The uncorrupted Torah is in your artscroll chumash.

also, from a non-Jewish perspective, a Jew is someone who constantly REJECTS G-d and His Commandments. the Tanakh is FULL of examples of this. [i'm NOT saying that Jews aren't NOW trying to follow what they can of Scripture, but right up until the Common Era, there's alot of evidence to show idolatry on a national level; not mention the Tanakh reporting of their "slaying the Prophets!" !]

Really? You get that from just reading the Tanakh? Well of course idolatry occured, but that isn't what a Jew was at all.

That is like saying from a non-Muslim perspective, Islam is a religion of violence and war becomes of people like Osama. Your reasoning makes zero sense.

 

[Muslim Woman]

..... not mention the Tanakh reporting of their "slaying the Prophets!" !].......Yusuf

---- bro , can u give me a link on that topic
( Jewish link /site , of course )

You might have to accept that in a thread explaining Jewish views, there will be many views and posts that are contrary to Muslim belief.

----yes but if it's not the correct explanation of Islam like who is a Muslim , then Muslims should give info , right :statisfie ?

 

[IzakHalevas]

----yes but if it's not the correct explanation of Islam like who is a Muslim , then Muslims should give info , right

?

I assume, but they should not get into debates.

 

[YusufNoor]

Assalamu 'alaykum,

A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

Shalom Izak,

the Talmud WASN'T in existance until AFTER the Babylonian captivity!

What on earth would give you that idea? The Oral Law was given to us, with the written law. The Written Torah is not complete without the Oral Torah. The Gemora or commentary of the Mishna which is the Oral law, was written later, but the Mishna was certainly in existance before Babylon. Would you like to rethink your answer?

not really, i stand by what i wrote as their is NO PROOF that it was in existence before then. but MAYBE i should have said WRITTEN.

by YOUR definition, which i don't agree with by the way, the Patriarchs COULDN'T have been Jews because the didn't follow the revealed, uncorrupted Torah! ergo, a Muslim, in it's TRUE sense, is a better term!

They didn't follow the uncorrupted Torah? Of course they did. Since the Torah continues to be uncorrupted, I follow the uncorrupted Torah. The uncorrupted Torah is in your artscroll chumash.

perhaps your missing my point. how could the Patriarchs of Genesis follow something that wasn't revealed until Exodus?

also, from a non-Jewish perspective, a Jew is someone who constantly REJECTS G-d and His Commandments. the Tanakh is FULL of examples of this. [i'm NOT saying that Jews aren't NOW trying to follow what they can of Scripture, but right up until the Common Era, there's alot of evidence to show idolatry on a national level; not mention the Tanakh reporting of their "slaying the Prophets!" !]

Really? You get that from just reading the Tanakh? Well of course idolatry occured, but that isn't what a Jew was at all.

perhaps but that isn't what a Jew was supposed to be at all would be a better answer

That is like saying from a non-Muslim perspective, Islam is a religion of violence and war becomes of people like Osama

people DO say that! i believe that i said it before i reverted. people are basing that on current history, my view on the Tanakh is based within the Tanakh itself. i don't hold that view to anger you, i think that it's sad.

i asked about Josephus because of the comments he makes in regards to Jesus. i was also wondering if a Jew would consider him a traitor or an opportunist, or BOTH!

the Torah is part history and part revealed, is that a correct statement?

Peace,



Yusuf

 

[IzakHalevas]

not really, i stand by what i wrote as their is NO PROOF that it was in existence before then. but MAYBE i should have said WRITTEN.

If your so interested in proof, then I would suggest you go to an atheist convention since your religion has no more "proof" then mine does. You may dispute that, but that is because your unbias.

perhaps your missing my point. how could the Patriarchs of Genesis follow something that wasn't revealed until Exodus?

I believe there is an opinion that the Torah was created before the universe as a blueprint, and was revealed after the Exodus. I will try to find the source for you.

people DO say that! i believe that i said it before i reverted. people are basing that on current history, my view on the Tanakh is based within the Tanakh itself. i don't hold that view to anger you, i think that it's sad.

i asked about Josephus because of the comments he makes in regards to Jesus. i was also wondering if a Jew would consider him a traitor or an opportunist, or BOTH!

Josephus was a source. I doubt he is recieving praise, but it was a source that shows the existance of the Torah, before a certain period which you requested.

the Torah is part history and part revealed, is that a correct statement?

Can you elaborate on your question? What do you mean "part"?

i believe that i said it before i reverted.

Not to offend you, but that shows you were pretty close minded and ignorantabout people you did not know before you "reverted", therefore, I suggest you not be closed minded and ignorant towards Judaism as well.

 

[SilentObserver]

Um, YusufNoor. This thread is an educational thread, not a debate thread. Please don't debate here. If you disagree with anything that you read here please start a new thread for debate.

 

[YusufNoor]

Assalamu 'alaykum,

A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

Shalom Izak

nice to see you're in a pleasant mood today...

I suggest you not be closed minded and ignorant towards Judaism as well.

:rollseyes

Have you ever read the following excerpts in the Torah? Exodus:

Chapter 14

10 And when Pharaoh drew nigh, the children of Israel lifted up their eyes, and, behold, the Egyptians were marching after them; and they were sore afraid; and the children of Israel cried out unto the LORD.

11 And they said unto Moses: 'Because there were no graves in Egypt, hast thou taken us away to die in the wilderness? wherefore hast thou dealt thus with us, to bring us forth out of Egypt?

12 Is not this the word that we spoke unto thee in Egypt, saying: Let us alone, that we may serve the Egyptians? For it were better for us to serve the Egyptians, than that we should die in the wilderness.'

How soon after G-d rescues them from Egypt was this?


Chapter 32


7 And the LORD spoke unto Moses: 'Go, get thee down; for thy people, that thou broughtest up out of the land of Egypt, have dealt corruptly;

8 they have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them; they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed unto it, and said: This is thy god, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

9 And the LORD said unto Moses: 'I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people

How soon after they received the 10 commandments was this? Were they or weren’t they just old NOT to make idols?



Numbers:

Chapter 11

1 And the people were as murmurers, speaking evil in the ears of the LORD; and when the LORD heard it, His anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and devoured in the uttermost part of the camp.

2 And the people cried unto Moses; and Moses prayed unto the LORD, and the fire abated.

3 And the name of that place was called Taberah, because the fire of the LORD burnt among them.

4 And the mixed multitude that was among them fell a lusting; and the children of Israel also wept on their part, and said: 'Would that we were given flesh to eat!

5 We remember the fish, which we were wont to eat in Egypt for nought; the cucumbers, and the melons, and the leeks, and the onions, and the garlic;
6 but now our soul is dried away; there is nothing at all; we have nought save this manna to look to.'—

this manna that they are complaining about, is it not food from heaven??

Do they seem appreciative to you?



Chapters 13 & 14:

25 And they returned from spying out the land at the end of forty days.

26 And they went and came to Moses, and to Aaron, and to all the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the wilderness of Paran, to Kadesh; and brought back word unto them, and unto all the congregation, and showed them the fruit of the land.

27 And they told him, and said: 'We came unto the land whither thou sentest us, and surely it floweth with milk and honey; and this is the fruit of it.

28 Howbeit the people that dwell in the land are fierce, and the cities are fortified, and very great; and moreover we saw the children of Anak there.

29 Amalek dwelleth in the land of the South; and the Hittite, and the Jebusite, and the Amorite, dwell in the mountains; and the Canaanite dwelleth by the sea, and along by the side of the Jordan.'

30 And Caleb stilled the people toward Moses, and said: 'We should go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it.'

31 But the men that went up with him said: 'We are not able to go up against the people; for they are stronger than we.'

32 And they spread an evil report of the land which they had spied out unto the children of Israel, saying: 'The land, through which we have passed to spy it out, is a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it are men of great stature.

33 And there we saw the Nephilim, the sons of Anak, who come of the Nephilim; and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight

1 And all the congregation lifted up their voice, and cried; and the people wept that night.

2 And all the children of Israel murmured against Moses and against Aaron; and the whole congregation said unto them: 'Would that we had died in the land of Egypt! or would we had died in this wilderness!

3 And wherefore doth the LORD bring us unto this land, to fall by the sword? Our wives and our little ones will be a prey; were it not better for us to return into Egypt?

4 And they said one to another: 'Let us make a captain, and let us return into Egypt.'

11 And the LORD said unto Moses: 'How long will this people despise Me? and how long will they not believe in Me, for all the signs which I have wrought among them?

12 I will smite them with the pestilence, and destroy them, and will make of thee a nation greater and mightier than they.'

Who is it speaking in vv 11 & 12??

While the above events took place, was not there a presence from G-d among them?

so, you don't see a pattern here??

Peace,



Yusuf

 

[north_malaysian]

what are the differences between kosher wine and non-kosher wine? And what's the significant of having wine in Seder celebration?

 

[SilentObserver]

Yusufnoor.

Hey Buddy, clue in. Start another thread if you want to debate. Some of us want the educational threads to be educational.