Mujahideen Literally Walk Over Mines To Save People - Bravery!

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Chechnya said:
Another thing Sis sweetness, you obviously dont know much about chechnya or shamil so please refrain from making bad remarks about him - what you hear in the kafir media isnt always true

when bro chechen said he doesnt care - its because shamil did not kill the children nor was it ever his aim
do you know what happened in buddenyvosk in the first war?

in buddenvosk shamil took over a hospital in russia and forced the russians to negotiate a ceasefire in chechnya and stop the genocide - they didnt blow up the hospital to kill the hostages in buddenyvosk and that was the exact same aim in beslan.
shamil himself said he was shocked at the outcome of beslan - no-one expected that
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Yeah Shamil said that he thought that like any normal human being Putin would go negotiate if he used children but he was shocked when Putin just ordered to attack the building without taking a second to think the situation through. Putin showed the whole world he didn't care about anyone's lives not even of his own people. Shamil was 100% sure that Putin would negotiate like the Russians had done in Budenyvosk but at the end it just turned out how he never suspected it would happen.
 
It doesn't matter what "should" have happened or who was "shocked". I don't know this man personally, and neither does anyone else on this board I would wager, but what happened in Beslan was the act of evil men(and women). Shamil didn't pull the trigger, so we don't know whether he wanted this to occur or not. God will judge.

I also find many posts made by "Chechnya" to be fairly disturbing in themselves. I would hope this individual would choose his words more carefully. If one truly wants the world to have sympathy for Chechnya, which I do have, these comments aren't going to win you any friends. If the Russians kill children, then you kill their children, that makes you just as bad as they are. You have lost the moral high ground. That is what was so unfortunate in Beslan, besides the death of over 200 innocent children. The Chechen cause became nothing more than another example of radical Muslim Jihad gone mad.
 
It doesn't matter what "should" have happened or who was "shocked". I don't know this man personally, and neither does anyone else on this board I would wager, but what happened in Beslan was the act of evil men(and women). Shamil didn't pull the trigger, so we don't know whether he wanted this to occur or not. God will judge.
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Actually we do know - we have his own words to tell us what he wanted.

Beslan was just supposed to be a repeat of Buddenyvosk - things went badly wrong and Shamil accepted his role in that and offered to pay the price for it.

I also find many posts made by "Chechnya" to be fairly disturbing in themselves. I would hope this individual would choose his words more carefully. If one truly wants the world to have sympathy for Chechnya, which I do have, these comments aren't going to win you any friends. If the Russians kill children, then you kill their children, that makes you just as bad as they are. You have lost the moral high ground. That is what was so unfortunate in Beslan, besides the death of over 200 innocent children. The Chechen cause became nothing more than another example of radical Muslim Jihad gone mad.
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What exactly do you find disturbing?

The fact that i said i want no children being killed, whether its through hostage-taking in Beslan or being bombed from the air in Grozny or Kabul?

Maybe you find it disturbing that i am saying non-muslims children are not more important than Muslim children?

And it wasnt the Chechens who killed the children in Beslan - as said by many hostages themselves, in fact they confirm that the hostage-takers were trying to get them out when the fire-fight started.

if the death of 200 kids in Beslan is "radical muslim jihad gone mad" then what would you call the death of over 40,000 chechen kids? spreading freedom and democracy in the western way?
 
Chechnya said:
Actually we do know - we have his own words to tell us what he wanted.

Beslan was just supposed to be a repeat of Buddenyvosk - things went badly wrong and Shamil accepted his role in that and offered to pay the price for it.



What exactly do you find disturbing?

The fact that i said i want no children being killed, whether its through hostage-taking in Beslan or being bombed from the air in Grozny or Kabul?

Maybe you find it disturbing that i am saying non-muslims children are not more important than Muslim children?

And it wasnt the Chechens who killed the children in Beslan - as said by many hostages themselves, in fact they confirm that the hostage-takers were trying to get them out when the fire-fight started.

if the death of 200 kids in Beslan is "radical muslim jihad gone mad" then what would you call the death of over 40,000 chechen kids? spreading freedom and democracy in the western way?
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According to the children that survived Beslan the hostage-takers were not trying to "get them out". In fact, many of the children were shot by the hostage takers as they attempted to flee. Those who care about the truth know what happened in Beslan. However, that is a different point from the one I raised to you.

It is a question of the moral high ground. In order to achieve support from the international community, it is important that the Chechens are perceived to be the "good guys". By butchering those children in Beslan, those terrorists have effectively isolated the Chechens from most international sympathy. I would hope that the majority of Chechens were horrified by what those people did in their name, and I'm sure they are. Hopefully you can understand this.
 
Chechen said:
They took them hostage to scare Putin and force him to negotitate they had no intention of hurting anyone.
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And thus by definition they are terrorists.

I've been here for a while now and I must say that this is the first time I've encountered a muslim here defending terrorism.
 
Keltoi said:
According to the children that survived Beslan the hostage-takers were not trying to "get them out". In fact, many of the children were shot by the hostage takers as they attempted to flee. Those who care about the truth know what happened in Beslan. However, that is a different point from the one I raised to you.

It is a question of the moral high ground. In order to achieve support from the international community, it is important that the Chechens are perceived to be the "good guys". By butchering those children in Beslan, those terrorists have effectively isolated the Chechens from most international sympathy. I would hope that the majority of Chechens were horrified by what those people did in their name, and I'm sure they are. Hopefully you can understand this.
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What does it matter if people see us as good guys or bad guys? When they considered us as bad guys they wouldn't support us and now as they see us as bad guys they still won't support us so what does it change for us? It would matter if we got help from people but we don't so nothing has changed for us excpt the fact that people consider us as "bad guys" now. Also the majority of the world has since the beginning seen us as bad guys.
 
Pygoscelis said:
And thus by definition they are terrorists.

I've been here for a while now and I must say that this is the first time I've encountered a muslim here defending terrorism.
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Defending terrorism? I don't see anyone defending terrorism.
 
According to the children that survived Beslan the hostage-takers were not trying to "get them out". In fact, many of the children were shot by the hostage takers as they attempted to flee. Those who care about the truth know what happened in Beslan. However, that is a different point from the one I raised to you.
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check out the names of just some of the hostages i mentioned earlier and their testimonies about what happened.
apart from the words of the hostages themselves, it absolutely makes no sense for the hostage-takers to be shooting the kids - these are the same guys that fought in grozny and elsewhere, proving their mettle - why would they start shooting kids for the sake of it?.
Once they realised the seige was over, then their aim was to fight the russians outside and the hostages confirm that they were just trying to get them out.

n fact one hostage went as far as to say she didnt fear the hostage-takers at all at that stage but was more fearful of the russian soldiers who were firing blindly.

It is a question of the moral high ground. In order to achieve support from the international community, it is important that the Chechens are perceived to be the "good guys". By butchering those children in Beslan, those terrorists have effectively isolated the Chechens from most international sympathy. I would hope that the majority of Chechens were horrified by what those people did in their name, and I'm sure they are. Hopefully you can understand this.
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Im afraid yor living in a fanatasy world.

You talk about support of the international community - but where was the international community when 40,000 chechen children were being killed???

It is ludicrous that the "international community" places these limitations on what actions basayev and chechen fighters are allowed to take while at the same time meeting and greeting Putin and ever since 2001 basically giving him a free hand to do what he wants.

For 12 years they ignored the butchering of Chechen women and children so to say any Chechen should care about what they think is absurd.
 
Chechen said:
Also the majority of the world has since the beginning seen us as bad guys.
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So you're just living up to the label?

That these people decided to go killing children and thus threw away any sympathy means more than just the sympathy. They threw away the reason they got that sympathy. They have become evil. They are no longer good. How can this not be important to a person of a faith (Islam) that supposedly values good over evil?
 
Pygoscelis said:
So you're just living up to the label?

That these people decided to go killing children and thus threw away any sympathy means more than just the sympathy. They threw away the reason they got that sympathy. They have become evil. They are no longer good. How can this not be important to a person of a faith (Islam) that supposedly values good over evil?
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The Chechens have always been seen as evil. Even by most of their "muslim" brothers. Nothing has changed. And I still can't manage to understand how we who have been oppressed for 400 years, have gone through all sorts of torture, have lost 300 000 people among them 50 000 children for these last 12 years only, 80% of our country has been destroyed and at the end WE are the evil ones??
 
First time I've encountered this here. What is a "kafir"? Is it a derogatory slur for "non muslim" as the context here implies?
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Who said that was a slur?

The Chechens have always been seen as evil. Even by most of their "muslim" brothers.
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Which Muslim brothers?

I dont know anyone who sees them as evil.
 
Nah bro trust me I know some muslims where I live who hate Chechens. Well.. if you really can call them muslims...
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what are their reasons?

you get these apologist muslims everywhere - even here in britain

best to ignore them bruv - they just got big self-esteem issues or something.
 
Chechen said:
and at the end WE are the evil ones??
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Those of you who go killing children at the end of it all, yes indeed, they are evil ones. Two wrongs do not make a right. And two attrocities don't either. Consider for a moment that what has befallen them is evil AND they have then become evil themselves. This is not an either/or.
 
Those of you who go killing children at the end of it all, yes indeed, they are evil ones. Two wrongs do not make a right. And two attrocities don't either. Consider for a moment that that has befallen them is evil AND they have then become evil themselves. This is not an either/or.
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we could take this logic further and say the whole of america, russia, israel etc. are evil because they re-instated proven child-killers and murderers into power like bush and putin.

you should really be concetrating on these evil nations first :rollseyes
 
Pygoscelis said:
Those of you who go killing children at the end of it all, yes indeed, they are evil ones. Two wrongs do not make a right. And two attrocities don't either. Consider for a moment that what has befallen them is evil AND they have then become evil themselves. This is not an either/or.
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Once you go through what I have been through meaning losing family and friends in war, not being able to return to your country for 7 years not see your family for 7 years and many other things which I can't tell you, you start to have phsycological problems and you can't control your anger or hate and you no longer can see who is your friend and who is your enemy. Most Chechens suffer from this kind of stuff and they're ready to do ANYTHING to stop all of this because we're going crazy. And I also live abroad imagine for the ones who live there. Who have to hear the sound of bombs everyday. Who have family and friends who constantly die. Who see dead corpses lying around in the street. And the children see these things too and they grow up with hate in them. Chechens, even myself, once we see a Russian be he a soldier or not we feel terrible rage and are ready to jump on him and rip him apart. It's hard for you to understand these things because you don't know what war is. You haven't experienced it. Our life has been spoiled and we suffer everyday just because the Russians want more money!
 
Chechnya said:
we could take this logic further and say the whole of america, russia, israel etc. are evil because they re-instated proven child-killers and murderers into power like bush and putin.

you should really be concetrating on these evil nations first :rollseyes
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Interesting logic that. You would hold all citizens of these places responsible? Even if they didn't vote for the regime who comitted the said acts? And what makes you think we don't criticize Russia, Israel and the USA?

That's your straw man talking.

And just because somebody else is doing something terrible that gives these folks who killed children a free pass? Again, two attrocities don't make a right.
 
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