Dublin imam takes on the fanatics

[Hijrah]

as for suicide bombers, I personally think it's wrong, simply because suicide in itself is wrong and as for killing military units why not take an ak and just shoot until one of the enemies kill you, it;s a lot more messy and risky and probably haraam to just blow yourself up, I have seen both views of suicide bombing from scholars and I take it that it is def. bad and obviously a doubtful matter in a situation like this, I would also like to point out that there are some scholars being considered 'moderate' who are all for the suicide bombing

 

[MTAFFI]

Of course women and children death is against my religion, (what you will call is causulty of War) but I was moer specifically talking about Iraqi men who help and abet them, not neccesarily the women and children.

do you really think that they are attacking these other Iraqi men because they side with the US? This is ignorant on your part, they attack these men because of they are shia and they are sunni. Saddam was sunni and the sunni had it good and everyone else lived in fear. Now the shia have control of the government and the sunni do not want this, so with or without US presence these attacks will continue until they kill everyone in their way of gaining power.

Non-combatant corporate for the purpose of establishing control is a legit target as they are abeting in this war crime.

CONTROL being the key word here

Thank's to independent journalism. I really do not think they can totally controll the information that is out, but what they can do is limit it and edit.

crazy talk, believe me I live in America and there is no limit to what the press can say

I really do not think their is any issue with the legality of the war. it is admitted and recognise it is an illegal war, regardless of U.S goverment and cohort agree or not.
I do believe in the pull out, that is the least that can be done. U.S is part of the problem. IF they don't I do believe they must be driven out.

what makes you think the war is illegal? The US invaded Iraq after the sept 11 bombings based on a war that was against those who threatened peace in our country. Are you saying Saddam never threatened peace in America? Yes we did pick the wrong country, no we didnt catch the man behind it, yet, but the guy was a maniac who really didnt just threaten peace in America he threatened it around the world. There is nothing illegal about this war. And by the way Sunnis kill way more shia each day than american troops, why do you think that is? Personally I believe the Sunni are trying to do an religious cleansing, and if the US were to pull out the violence would not stop until all the shia were dead.

I do not care about your greatest Victory, it is nonsense to bring in the how bad was sadaam. The War was in the first base based on lies. It is worldy recognise. When you have a goverment that lies so outwardly and play's the 9-11 card on the hignorant masses has no credibility.

Why would bringing Saddam in have no credibility? Also 9/11 is not a "card" it is the reason that the US has occupied so many different places today, because the people that did it are cowards and hide with civilians in multiple countries.

They never went to iraq for correctly or incorrect purpose, it is for their own interest. They are willing to sacrifice the cattle for the invested interest. Blanming on the innacurate artillery and this and that, to justify their action holds no water, whenit is in itself a criminal act.

This is the same backwash I continue to read on this site, tell me what is the invested interest? A democratic Iraq? That is about the only interest the US has and I dont see why it is a bad one considering their previous government. Also regarding your inaccurate artillery, how accurate were the Sunni suicide bombers at the college in Iraq yesterday? Tell me how is the villan here?

It is not a heated circular debate, one is not keen on facing the reality for american terrorism and extremism.

I dont think you know what American terrorism or extremism is, do you know what happened to the Japanese back when Roosevelt was president? That was extreme, I would hate to see this happen to muslim americans because of the current events today, then I would say America was extreme

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_internment_camps

Right now the US is only in Iraq to save the shia and for no other reason.

 

[atha]

Assalam-u-alaikum and Hello

I totally agree with Steve. I think everyone who is in favour of suicide bombing should try to answer the points raised by Steve. He did a really good job at it and I think he deserves criticism, positive or negative, so he can learn or teach more. So anyone has the guts to take him on? I have discussions with Steve before and I have found him very thorough and to the point. He does his research and is open to new points and ideas. So, anyone (who is in favour of suicide bombing) care to try taking him on? It will only make this thread extremely interesting. And by the way, I know why you guys haven't answered him before. I think you don't know how to answer him b/c he speaks the truth. I am dissapointed in you people for still favouring suicide bombing even after so much evidence and proof against it.

Take care
Assalam-u-Alaikum

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you MTAFFI,

what makes you think the war is illegal? The US invaded Iraq after the sept 11 bombings based on a war that was against those who threatened peace in our country.

If Jesus was here today would he sanction the bombing of Afghanistan and Iraq?

In the spirit of seeking justice for the oppressed;

Eric

 

[MTAFFI]

Greetings and peace be with you MTAFFI,



If Jesus was here today would he sanction the bombing of Afghanistan and Iraq?

In the spirit of seeking justice for the oppressed;

Eric

Do you think he would want the people that are getting bombed to be able to do the things they do? I too disagree with bombing anyone or anything but at the same time if we left these countries and did nothing we would be attacked and thousands of lives would be lost because we let them run free, not just lives in america but in afganistan and everywhere else. God is peace but at the same time evil cannot be allowed to roam free with no one to stop it.

peace

 

[Akil]

but I was moer specifically talking about Iraqi men who help and abet them, not neccesarily the women and children.

Non-combatant corporate for the purpose of establishing control is a legit target as they are abeting in this war crime.

So you believe its ok to kill males indiscriminately so long as you think they belong to a political faction that is opposite your own? Regardless of whether or not they are armed? Regardless of whether or not they have ever been combatants? Regardless of whether or not they are Muslim?

Thank's to independent journalism.

All journalism (outside of fox news) is independent in America. My point is that the US does not limit journalism (Outside of common sense stuff, like not reveling troop locations or movements).

Anyway does U.S terrorism, extremism sound alien to you?

I’m Choctaw, of course not.

I really do not think their is any issue with the legality of the war. it is admitted and recognise it is an illegal war,

International law is slightly more complicated than the press makes it out to be. Firstly the US never went to the table in the UN, they called off the vote because they new several permanent members of the UN security council were going to veto the vote (ie because Saddam owed France and Germany billions and those respective countries knew that upon regime change they would be forced to forgive those debts).

Second, in the United Nations there are only two legal ways to declare war. The first is action that is sanctioned by the UN Security Council and the second is eminent self-defense. The Bush Doctrine is legalese that equates preemptive self-defense with eminent self-defense, thereby making preemptive self-defense a legal reason to declare war. It’s a backdoor policy and its as slimy as the lawyers that wrote it, but regardless of what I think about whether or not the US should have started the war, it is technically legal.

it is nonsense to bring in the how bad was sadaam. The War was in the first base based on lies. It is worldy recognise.

Governments lie, get over it. As for what I said, you didn’t understand it so I will state it again.

By taking Saddam out of power we have created a power vacuum. What I meant by him being the baddest bully is that Saddam kept his own forces, al Sadr and the Shia opposition, Salafi extremists and the Sunni opposition, the rebel Kurds, ethnic and religious minorities like the Assyrians, all under his thumb, tightly controlled where they had no potential to hurt his regime.

Now that he is gone all those lesser bullies he formerly repressed want to take his crown, trying to fill the void the Iraqi Baath party left when it went down. That’s why our greatest victory was our greatest crime.

Blanming on the innacurate artillery and this and that, to justify their action holds no water, whenit is in itself a criminal act.

Once again you look past the obvious meaning of my statement. I disagree with the way the war is being handled and that is one of the things I disagree with. We have destroyed targets that were not correctly identified and that is not acceptable in my opinion.

It is not a heated circular debate, one is not keen on facing the reality for american terrorism and extremism.

You always end with these word games, like it somehow punctuates your argument. Do you believe you have cemented your argument because you put the word American next to the word terrorism? I’ve seen it done before and it doesn’t shock me, people without an argument often resort to semantics.

Reflecting hate will not end this. All hate causes is violence which becomes death and then loss and then anger and then hate once again. We have to find a new reign of power, worldwide.

 

[Hijrah]

do you really think that they are attacking these other Iraqi men because they side with the US? This is ignorant on your part, they attack these men because of they are shia and they are sunni. Saddam was sunni and the sunni had it good and everyone else lived in fear. Now the shia have control of the government and the sunni do not want this, so with or without US presence these attacks will continue until they kill everyone in their way of gaining power.



CONTROL being the key word here



crazy talk, believe me I live in America and there is no limit to what the press can say



what makes you think the war is illegal? The US invaded Iraq after the sept 11 bombings based on a war that was against those who threatened peace in our country. Are you saying Saddam never threatened peace in America? Yes we did pick the wrong country, no we didnt catch the man behind it, yet, but the guy was a maniac who really didnt just threaten peace in America he threatened it around the world. There is nothing illegal about this war. And by the way Sunnis kill way more shia each day than american troops, why do you think that is? Personally I believe the Sunni are trying to do an religious cleansing, and if the US were to pull out the violence would not stop until all the shia were dead.


Why would bringing Saddam in have no credibility? Also 9/11 is not a "card" it is the reason that the US has occupied so many different places today, because the people that did it are cowards and hide with civilians in multiple countries.


This is the same backwash I continue to read on this site, tell me what is the invested interest? A democratic Iraq? That is about the only interest the US has and I dont see why it is a bad one considering their previous government. Also regarding your inaccurate artillery, how accurate were the Sunni suicide bombers at the college in Iraq yesterday? Tell me how is the villan here?



I dont think you know what American terrorism or extremism is, do you know what happened to the Japanese back when Roosevelt was president? That was extreme, I would hate to see this happen to muslim americans because of the current events today, then I would say America was extreme

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_internment_camps

Right now the US is only in Iraq to save the shia and for no other reason.

hmm..yess.America is protecting shias..this explains why Muqtadah Al-Sadr is anti-sunni as well as anti-american

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you too MTAFFI;

God is the creator of all that is seen and unseen and that means he created everyone living in Iraq and Afghanistan. Now I wonder how Mr Bush can be totally confident that only the evil and unjust people will be killed through his aggressive policies in these countries.

Can Mr Bush be totally sure that he is only having the people killed that God wants killed?

At some point we will all have to stand before God and he is eternal so he can easily wait another seventy years for some one to die of old age.

I struggle to understand how God benefits in any way when we bomb and kill a part of his creation?

This thread started off talking about a brave Muslim cleric standing up for peace, and I have to agree with him. The people in Iraq and Afghanistan need our prayers not our bombs.

In the spirit of striving to find peace in my heart,

Eric

 

[Abdul Fattah]

Ok, for all those claiming suicide bombings should be ok in some cases, I made a separate tread here: http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-jurisprudence/35684-suicide-bombing.html#post629222

 

[Skillganon]

do you really think that they are attacking these other Iraqi men because they side with the US? This is ignorant on your part, they attack these men because of they are shia and they are sunni. Saddam was sunni and the sunni had it good and everyone else lived in fear. Now the shia have control of the government and the sunni do not want this, so with or without US presence these attacks will continue until they kill everyone in their way of gaining power.

I do indeed think and believe they do attack those Iraqi that are part of the american terrorist, and this is not solely got to do with Shia or sunni. For the simple reason even if they where sunni and shia who are helping the american terrorist, their are group who are naturaly have the right to defend their country and fight the invaders.
Secondly their is a tension between sunni and shia and by all means that is being tried to be aggrevated even more, but to solely trying to potray the fighting as a Shia and Sunni thing is ignorance on your part.

CONTROL being the key word here

Control was alway's been the of america's agenda, how else it will it serve their interest.

Crazy talk, believe me I live in America and there is no limit to what the press can say

One should differentiate between freedom of speech in america and the control of information by filtering information that comes out as much as possible (although they do come out not that they have not tried to stop it) aswell as what the editing that goes on by the EDITORS.

what makes you think the war is illegal? The US invaded Iraq after the sept 11 bombings based on a war that was against those who threatened peace in our country. Are you saying Saddam never threatened peace in America? Yes we did pick the wrong country, no we didnt catch the man behind it, yet, but the guy was a maniac who really didnt just threaten peace in America he threatened it around the world. There is nothing illegal about this war.

So the sept 11 bombing allows U.S to invade another country they like?
I am not suprised by how much indoctrination you got from that, if one noticed the bush was rewinding that message so many time. Are you also trying to say the the america's terrorist attack on Iraq was pure agression least to say?

If you wan't to potray an evil man going around the world terrorising everyone in the world does not hold no water. Iraq was no threat to the world, they did not have any considerable millitary power even if they had that so called agenda least to say the suppose WMD that apparently justifies this war.
Saddam is not a legit reason to terrorise another country, this was not true for so many years.

And by the way Sunnis kill way more shia each day than american troops, why do you think that is? Personally I believe the Sunni are trying to do an religious cleansing, and if the US were to pull out the violence would not stop until all the shia were dead.

If sunni's really wanted to wipe out the Shia's they easily could of cleansed them out anytime during the Islamic History.

Why would bringing Saddam in have no credibility? Also 9/11 is not a "card" it is the reason that the US has occupied so many different places today, because the people that did it are cowards and hide with civilians in multiple countries.

If you got some Idea in your head that it 9/11 justifies every attack by the U.s Goverment than you are living in a funny world and their will be alway's people who do not advocate 9/11 who will oppose america solely because they are going around on their will and killing and imposing their will by any mean's available to them as much as they think they can get away with.
If you want to chuck everyone who oppose american terrorism into your "terrorist boat" than one have a funny idea of the world.


[quot]This is the same backwash I continue to read on this site, tell me what is the invested interest? A democratic Iraq? That is about the only interest the US has and I dont see why it is a bad one considering their previous government.[/quote]
If the vested interest was somekind of democratic Iraq than imposing democracy in itself defeats the purpose of democracy. Secondly holding a democratic election under a foreign attack and occupation in itself defeats the purpose.
Also using ther word democracy to spread miscief around the world is pure evil.

Also regarding your inaccurate artillery, how accurate were the Sunni suicide bombers at the college in Iraq yesterday? Tell me how is the villan here?

I do not advocate the U.S terrorist attack of Iraq nor killing of women and children.
Secondly how many women, children & innocnent did the U.S & allies killed in this war?
Oyeah what was the word to justify it, casualty of war and Colatteral Damage.

I dont think you know what American terrorism or extremism is, do you know what happened to the Japanese back when Roosevelt was president? That was extreme, I would hate to see this happen to muslim americans because of the current events today, then I would say America was extreme.

I do not care about the Japanesse and Roosevalt, this is not the point of discussion but rather american terrorism, extremism. It seems like one is having a hard time swallowing such concept or that this thing exist in america.

Right now the US is only in Iraq to save the shia and for no other reason.

Is that the next spin?

 

[snakelegs]

This is where my problem lies with the article he genralises too much and doesn't actually say what true islam is.[/B]

who gets to determine what the "true islam" is?

 

[Skillganon]

who gets to determine what the "true islam" is?

The Quran and the Sunnah and obviousely this requires knowledge.

 

[snakelegs]

even among scholars, there is some diversity of opinion on some issues.

 

[Skillganon]

even among scholars, there is some diversity of opinion on some issues.

Yeah this are fiqh issues, mostly one take's the one that has the stronger evidence, it is negligble on some case. Their are things that fall in area of doubt and mostly one is advised that "if in doubt stay clear of it".
I am admittedly not an expert on this thing just like you learning. In Islam it is okay to have a different opinion.

 

[SilentObserver]

The Quran and the Sunnah and obviousely this requires knowledge.

even among scholars, there is some diversity of opinion on some issues.

Diversity?

I'll say. There is a HUGE range in how muslims interpret their religion. What one muslim calls true Islam can be very different from another muslim. This forum is full of examples.
One example is the 'Dublin imam takes on the fanatics' thread. Some consider him to be preaching the true meaning of islam. Peace and tolerance. Others have went as far as to say he is not a muslim, and an enemy of Allah and Islam.

These differences can be found among the scholars. So who gets to decide what is the true Islam? How do we know which is the true islam?

 

[snakelegs]

actually, i think this is one of the cool things about islam. no pope or ultimate authority figure. thinking is required.

 

[SilentObserver]

actually, i think this is one of the cool things about islam. no pope or ultimate authority figure. thinking is required.

Are you kidding?

 

[snakelegs]

no.
it could just be my "take" on it. but from what i understand, you check your motivation/intent, see what various scholars say and ultimately, based on the above, you make up your own mind.
at least, this is how it's supposed to be, i think.
like any other religion, you can't always judge a religion by its followers.

 

[Erundur]

actually, i think this is one of the cool things about islam. no pope or ultimate authority figure. thinking is required.

:salamext:

Until another Caliphate happens, then it will become more linear.

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

Diversity?

I'll say. There is a HUGE range in how muslims interpret their religion. What one muslim calls true Islam can be very different from another muslim. This forum is full of examples.

To distinguish between truth and falsehood, we simply need to return to the sources of Islam: we should follow Islam as revealed by Allah in the Qur'an, explained by the Prophet (peace be upon him) through the Sunnah, and understood by the noble companions and early generations of Muslims.

Interpreting the Qur'an or the Sunnah is not left for any Muslim who chooses to do so; rather it is the responsibility of one who is qualified, thus demonstrating the need to refer to such individuals.

Many differences arise from ignorance and some people who claim to be experts in Islam have little qualification to be called so in reality. Some principles on adhering to scholars have been pointed out in the following threads:

http://www.islamicboard.com/biographies-islamic-figures/2791-position-scholars-past.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-jurisprudence/30213-differences-among-scholars.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-islam/31035-good-learn-about-islam-variety-scholars.html

One example is the 'Dublin imam takes on the fanatics' thread. Some consider him to be preaching the true meaning of islam. Peace and tolerance. Others have went as far as to say he is not a muslim, and an enemy of Allah and Islam.

Many statements on this forum are simply opinions and often statements are made out of ignorance. If we look at two ore more differing opinions on this forum, then it does not represent two or more sides of equal research and investigation having reached an edcuated conclusion that can be seen as representing the differences among the whole Muslim nation. Many young and naive people are often behind posts, and therefore this comparison is inappropriate.

I hope that helps us to understand this issue. Anything wrong that I have said is from my own lack of knowledge.

Peace.