Laws and Logic in Islam

[chris4336]

Asalmu alikum - Hi everyone.

As a recent convert (and even before I converted) I considered very seriously the different rules (and permissions) in Islam. As I continue to study them I am finding that a lot of websites/people will provide explanations for the different rulings. Some of these are pretty well accepted and understood by most people (ie: Alcohol is prohibited because of the bad effects it can have on a person's health and society, Zina can cause the spread of STDs, etc).

However there are some topics were people might see differently in terms of logic. For example, I believe God made polygamy permissible to help woman who might be poor and have no other option. However, another Muslim might believe God made polygamy permissible to help men who are attracted to women other than their wives.

However, as a new Muslim these kind of "rationalizations" seem kind of wrong to me, because it seems like we are assuming that we know why Allah made certain laws, when we really don't, and never will. Shouldn't the answer just be "Because God says so." Are they prohibited in Islam? Do scholars use this kind of reasoning (because I think I've seen it on those Islamic Q&A websites)?

I hope this makes some sense. Thanks!

 

[Abdul Fattah]

selam aleykum
First of, mashallah for revereting, may Allah subhana wa ta'ala continue to guide you on the straight path.

You're absolutely right, most of the rules are not explained to that extend that we know the motivation. We should follow the rules with the main purpose of obeying and worshipping Allah subhana wa ta'ala. However, in Allah subhana wa ta'ala his great mercy, he has made the rules as such that they actually tend to make life less complicated and the quality of life better. So understanding all these benefits from these rules make it easier to obey for muslims; and easier to understand for to non-muslims.
We also need to watch with this because some people tend to disobey these rules based on the motive. For example they might reason, we're not allowed to drink alcohol because it makes us drunk, but a lil bit procesed in our food no longer makes us drunk. Because the motive then falls away some people tend to judge that it is ok under those circumstances (astagfirAllah). However that line of reasoning is wrong, as you said, we don't always know the motive and in the cases were we do know of a motive there might always be a secundairy motive that we've overlooked. And technically, even if at a certain point all motive do fall away, that still doesn't grant us authoroty to disobey.

 

[aamirsaab]

However there are some topics were people might see differently in terms of logic. For example, I believe God made polygamy permissible to help woman who might be poor and have no other option. However, another Muslim might believe God made polygamy permissible to help men who are attracted to women other than their wives.

Your initial belief about polygamy being to help those who are poor is islamically correct.

However, as a new Muslim these kind of "rationalizations" seem kind of wrong to me, because it seems like we are assuming that we know why Allah made certain laws, when we really don't, and never will. Shouldn't the answer just be "Because God says so." Are they prohibited in Islam? Do scholars use this kind of reasoning (because I think I've seen it on those Islamic Q&A websites)?

I hope this makes some sense. Thanks!

There is a spiritual and material reason for everything that is prohibited (haram) and that which is permisable (halaal) in Islam. Seeking the material reason is in no way a crime; understanding is just as important as doing.

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

wa alaikum ussalaam and ALHAMDULILLAAH (praise be to Allaah) its really good to have a new sister in the hood!!


as for your question, all i can say is that theres a difference of opinion, but polygomy is certainly halal (permissable) under what context... i dont want to go there!

 

[Emperor]

Asalmu alikum - Hi everyone.

As a recent convert (and even before I converted) I considered very seriously the different rules (and permissions) in Islam.

It is important to follow God's law concerning what is either prohibited or allowed, but paramount is your faith in the Almighty. Merely shunning pork etc. does not make us righteous.

As I continue to study them I am finding that a lot of websites/people will provide explanations for the different rulings.

You MUST read the Quran as God Himself explains things the best.

Some of these are pretty well accepted and understood by most people (ie: Alcohol is prohibited because of the bad effects it can have on a person's health and society, Zina can cause the spread of STDs, etc).

However there are some topics were people might see differently in terms of logic. For example, I believe God made polygamy permissible to help woman who might be poor and have no other option.

However, another Muslim might believe God made polygamy permissible to help men who are attracted to women other than their wives.

This is absolutely incorrect as the institution of marriage is not at all intended as a tool for indulging in lust.

However, as a new Muslim these kind of "rationalizations" seem kind of wrong to me, because it seems like we are assuming that we know why Allah made certain laws, when we really don't, and never will.

It is certainly wrong to set forth unsubstantiated "rationalizations". We can speculate on things that are interpretable, of course.

Shouldn't the answer just be "Because God says so."

Absolutely!

Are they prohibited in Islam? Do scholars use this kind of reasoning (because I think I've seen it on those Islamic Q&A websites)?

Many individuals who claim they are upholding God's law are in fact dictating Islam in their own words.

Read the Quran and reflect. God Himself knows best.

[/QUOTE]

 

[chris4336]

Thanks all for the thoughts. Steve you brought up a really interesting point with the alcohol, I was thinking along those same lines (as long as I'm not getting drunk I can injest it). Thanks also Emperor, I fully agree that reading the Quran is surely the best way to understand Allah.

I read somewhere that when Mohamed was teaching his message at first was mostly about love and obeying Allah. And then when the rules came later, people were very willing to follow them. This seems like a much better way then trying to guess the reasons behind all sorts of rules. I only say this because my first exposure to Islam was "You have to do this, you can't do that, this is allowed, but this is not," with very little emphasis on the nature Allah or the hereafter or anything like that. So in this case I was kind of looking for reasons behind every little thing. In most cases I could find a reason, but sometimes not, and those were real struggles.

Anyway, thanks for the thoughts.

 

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


Yeah, Aa'isha (may Allaah be pleased with her) said something like if the first verses were to be about forbidding people from giving up on their alcohol, sins etc. then the people wouldn't listen. But the beginning verses which were revealed were regarding the hellfire, paradise, the Oneness of Allaah etc. And only later on the verses regarding the prohibitions got revealed.

[Try looking at how the verses from chapter 67 onwards (Mostly Makkan surahs) are totally different to verses of the chapters of 2 - 66 [mainly Medinan Surahs.] The Makkan surahs usually have smaller verses than Medinan Surahs do.


That's why the scholars split up the message into two main parts; the Makkan Period and the Medinan Period. Most verses regarding the hereafter and the verses regarding Allaah, His oneness/attributes, the lives of previous prophets etc. were revealed in Makkah.

The verses regarding prohibitions were revealed in Medina, like the prohibition of alcohol, the verses regarding hijaab etc. Because the faith had been instilled firmly into their hearts so they were ready to sacrifice anything for the sake of Allaah.​

 

[Skillganon]

Asalmu alikum - Hi everyone.

As a recent convert (and even before I converted) I considered very seriously the different rules (and permissions) in Islam. As I continue to study them I am finding that a lot of websites/people will provide explanations for the different rulings. Some of these are pretty well accepted and understood by most people (ie: Alcohol is prohibited because of the bad effects it can have on a person's health and society, Zina can cause the spread of STDs, etc).

However there are some topics were people might see differently in terms of logic. For example, I believe God made polygamy permissible to help woman who might be poor and have no other option. However, another Muslim might believe God made polygamy permissible to help men who are attracted to women other than their wives.

However, as a new Muslim these kind of "rationalizations" seem kind of wrong to me, because it seems like we are assuming that we know why Allah made certain laws, when we really don't, and never will. Shouldn't the answer just be "Because God says so." Are they prohibited in Islam? Do scholars use this kind of reasoning (because I think I've seen it on those Islamic Q&A websites)?

I hope this makes some sense. Thanks!

Ultimately you are correct and that is the position we should all take but it is not wrong to think and ponder upon the ayat of Allah(s.w.t) but rather you are advise too. This is to process of learning and digesting information.

Some people try to rationalize so much that they seem to go beyond the intital purpose of the ayat i.e. arriving at something via something that is not their.

Othe people go to excess and read into something that is not their, for example, claims of the speed of light e.t.c

So we have to be careful not to fall into these stuff or be careful we do not propogate these stuff unintentionally.

 

[Abdul Fattah]

Thanks all for the thoughts. Steve you brought up a really interesting point with the alcohol, I was thinking along those same lines (as long as I'm not getting drunk I can injest it). Thanks also Emperor, I fully agree that reading the Quran is surely the best way to understand Allah.

I'm glad I could be of assistence there

I read somewhere that when Mohamed was teaching his message at first was mostly about love and obeying Allah. And then when the rules came later, people were very willing to follow them. This seems like a much better way then trying to guess the reasons behind all sorts of rules. I only say this because my first exposure to Islam was "You have to do this, you can't do that, this is allowed, but this is not," with very little emphasis on the nature Allah or the hereafter or anything like that. So in this case I was kind of looking for reasons behind every little thing. In most cases I could find a reason, but sometimes not, and those were real struggles.

In general the prophetship of Muhammed peace be upon him is usually devided in two era's, before and after the hijrah (emmigration) to medina. In several qur'ans you will also see wheter a verse was revealed before or afterwards, and teh Islamic callender started on the hijrah with year zero.
The main diffrence is that in Mekka the prophet peace be upon him and his message was adjusted to his surroundings and tried mainly to call people to monotheism, believeing in the oneness of Allah subhana wa ta'ala, and concentrating on the major lines, whereas after the hidjrah were the community was consistent of mostly muslims there was a much larger focus on rules and rituals and details. For a revert it can be confusing at first on one hand there's a certain hierarchy in importance, like you shouldn't occupy with minor rules (stuff like not eating while standing up) while you're still working on the basics like performing daily prayer 5 times a day. On the other hand one shouldn't be careless about these minor things with the excuse that one has still bigger things to worry. Because eventually this can have a chain-effect. Let me give an example. I know this guy who doesn't pray 5 times a day. I asked him to come to the friday prayer with me once. He said something like: no it would be hypocrite to go and pray in teh mesjid on friday when I don't pray during the week. However he forgot that friday prayer is an obligation for men. So although he was trying to avoid being hypocrite -which in it self is good- he thought wrong by using one sin as an excuse to another. Also, less important sins can build up and become important to when there weight accumelates, so I would advise you to work on them as soon as possible, but expieriance shows that if you rush to much that it doesn't work. You'll probably find it difficult at first to find a good balance, to find your way among the 4 different sunni scolars and so on. I know for example in teh beginning after I reverted Is still wasn't sure about the accuracy of the hadeeth and I had a critical attitude about many fatwa's and so on, but the key is to keep reading and keep learning, and I found that the more I investigated, the more that my visions overlapped with the classical viewpoints. May Allah subhana wa ta'ala guide you in this.

And don't be afraid in asking questions, everybody's gotta learn one way or the other. We wont stone you for asking the wrong question inshaAllah

 

[Umar001]

Wa Aleykum Salam,

The key here is the difference between why and wisdom.

Someone asks, "Why do we not eat pork" when in reality they are asking, "What is the wisdom behind it".

You see, in Islam, we have 'Allah said' and 'The Messenger said' as our source, we do not eat pork, why? Because Allah said.

If someone asks, what is the wisdom? Then that is something that we have either been told about by Allah and His Messenger, or if we have not, then some people may speculate based on their understanding, but they should always end by saying 'And Allah knows best' such speculations are not concrete.

 

[Umar001]

This is absolutely incorrect as the institution of marriage is not at all intended as a tool for indulging in lust.

Everyone I think knows my position on marriage.

But for the sake of clarification I would like to ask you, brother, about your statement, 'the institution of marriage is not at all intended as a tool for indulging in lust.'

What do you mean by Lust.

And do you think a marriage to a sister is invalid if he marries her because he has strong desires, which some might define as lust, whether it be his first or second wife or third or fourth?

I await your reply, your brother in Islaam.

Eesa Abdullah

 

[snakelegs]

i've seen the advice "find a wife" "get married" here very frequently when a guy is talking basically about lust.
so i'd be interested too if this is correct or not.

 

[Umar001]

i've seen the advice "find a wife" "get married" here very frequently when a guy is talking basically about lust.
so i'd be interested too if this is correct or not.

I think that what it is is that when someone is falling into such things, i.e. feelings of lusts, and so forth, people say that he should get married, why? Because that is one of the blessings of marriage, others when they hear 'You should get married' they think 'wait a second marriage aint just about sex' but although I give the advise to get married, I aslo know marriage is not about sex, but there are alot of rights in marriage.

I personally, advice people who are finding it hard to control their desires to get married since this is a natural and good religious way of dealing with the desires, also, although there is a physical desire it also in alot of cases tends to be attached to an emotional one where companionship is sought, so I find marriage a good way to resolve it.

If one cannot get married then fast.

Some feel that marriage because a person has a need is not good enough, yet what they fail to see is that those who encourage marriage at such times are not just encouraging that the person takes on the sexual side and leaves all the rest, but rather that the person embraces marriage fully and thus feels the burden of 'lust' relieved whilst also fufilling some duties and gaining reward and blessing insha'Allah.

And Allah knows best.

 

[snakelegs]

thanks for your thoughts, eesa.
to an outsider, while it makes perfect sense, it doesn't seem like a very good reason to get married. but yes, i know it is a very difficult situation to be in.

 

[Abdul Fattah]

thanks for your thoughts, eesa.
to an outsider, while it makes perfect sense, it doesn't seem like a very good reason to get married. but yes, i know it is a very difficult situation to be in.

I know what you mean, but in Islam the practical is usually superior over the ideology. Sure it's nice to have a romantic marriage with someone you're head over heals with, but passion and romance do not guarantee a happily ever after. Next to that, Islam places a lot of regulations and suggestions and code of conduct and responsabilities and rights in marriage. I think that in a correct Islamic marriage where both partners have the right intention that it's only natural for a deep profound bond to grow if the persons are somewhat compatible. It might be a bit naive of me, but that's what I think. And such a bond would get a couple a lot further then romance and passion or love at first sight will bring you.

p.s. Sorry Chris for off-topic rants

 

[snakelegs]

I know what you mean, but in Islam the practical is usually superior over the ideology. Sure it's nice to have a romantic marriage with someone you're head over heals with, but passion and romance do not guarantee a happily ever after. Next to that, Islam places a lot of regulations and suggestions and code of conduct and responsabilities and rights in marriage. I think that in a correct Islamic marriage where both partners have the right intention that it's only natural for a deep profound bond to grow if the persons are somewhat compatible. It might be a bit naive of me, but that's what I think. And such a bond would get a couple a lot further then romance and passion or love at first sight will bring you.

p.s. Sorry Chris for off-topic rants

i couldn't agree more - romantic marriages (which are often based on lust) are not like in the movies, which is why we have such a high divorce rate. what you wrote above sounds like a worthy ideal and there is a certain wisdom in going with the practical. if the person is fullly aware of the code and conduct and responsibilities then it is ok, but lust can blind a person and cause a person to underestimate their ability and readiness. a marriage takes work. just my opinion.

 

[chris4336]

Okay, thanks all for responding. I guess my question is kind of as a revert, and kind of the way I was taught Islam, which is I think the way most reverts are taught Islam is that you are given a big list of things to do/change with very few people speaking to you about the blessing Allah has given to you in this life, or the blessings he has prepared for you in the hereafter. This is just a personal experience, but I have spoken with a few converts who feel this way as well.

So you are sayiing that if I were talking about Islam with a family or friend who is not a Muslim its alright to say - "Alcohol is forbidden, and we can see the widsom behind this ruling for reasons x,y,z but Allah knows best" I think there is a slight, but important, distinction between that an "Alcohol is forbidden because of reasons x,y,z" Do you guys think so?