Police raids target 'terror plot' in UK

[Dawud_uk]

If Van Gough were, indeed, trying to start a relgious war, then there are secular laws in the Netherlands to deal with him. I have; however, never heard such a claim before and find it preposterous in the extreme that a Dutch army would march on Mecca.

It seems to me, the real threat was that Van Gough might cause practicing Dutch Muslims to question their faith. That he offended people is a certainty, but it is hard to imagine that he had the international impact in life that he now has in death. I suspect the "scholar" who issued the contract on Van Gough had no understanding of the harm his murder would do to the cause of Islam. What might have worked in the 7th Century will almost certainly not work in the 21st.

So, putting aside the morally bereft justification offered, one has to ask....what has been gained here in a utilitarian sense?

the gain is that people are no longer so free to insult Allah and his messenger, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him.

disagree with us fine, but insults... i would have thought theo van gogh and the danish matter as well as salman rushdie would have taught the west better and i certainly think it has.

Abu Abdullah

 

[Dawud_uk]

Isn't it a matter of practical certainty that the Sunni and Shia could never possibly agree on this point? Seems to me someone would have to be right and someone would have to be wrong.

yes. the sunni muslims believe the leader should come about through consensus and consultation, the shi'a believe their imams are divinely inspired and flawless...

i know which argument is logical and in accordance with the reason and logic in the Quran and sunnah of islam.

Abu Abdullah

 

[DaNgErOuS MiNdS]

I just hope that this latest ''plot'' turns out to be untrue, I can't imagine anybody actually thinking to do somehting like this in the UK. In my opinion all this has been exaggerated to make intresting headlines, especially chopping the head off. Doing something like this wouldn't do anything but cause more conflict between Muslims and bring more hate from non-muslims.

 

[Dawud_uk]

i agree, most likely either untrue or an exageration.

what if they overheard someone saying something like "yeah saw that ken bigley video last night, someone should do that to a soldier"

2nd muslim "a muslim soldier! there is one on my street, really ****ed me off when he joined army"

conversation goes on like that, but nothing serious, they are just talking and but someone over hears and goes police.

Abu Abdullah

 

[DaNgErOuS MiNdS]

^ you know something like that is the only thing that I can think of that could possibly have happend, anything else is unimaginable (as in actually planning it out etc). We'll wait and see what happens...

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

^^ Agreed !

 

[FBI]

I wanna know how actually MI5 ect find out about these so-called plots?

 

[Bittersteel]

BTW...remind me to get my Jiziya in on time should I be consumed with a crazy idea to move to a Muslim state.

this Jizya is now modern day tax for residence,electrcity ,gas,car ,tax for properties,etc.

 

[MTAFFI]

this Jizya is now modern day tax for residence,electrcity ,gas,car ,tax for properties,etc.

i thought tax was forbidden in Shariah Law

 

[j4763]

I just hope that this latest ''plot'' turns out to be untrue, I can't imagine anybody actually thinking to do somehting like this in the UK.

Why? Some fools bomb the tube not long ago.

In my opinion all this has been exaggerated to make intresting headlines, especially chopping the head off.

well at least its more intresting than reading about the big brother rubbish!

Doing something like this wouldn't do anything but cause more conflict between Muslims and bring more hate from non-muslims.

Well that would work fine for both party's, scare muslims into the alleged terrorists hands and make the muslim non-mulism dived even bigger!

 

[- Qatada -]

i thought tax was forbidden in Shariah Law

The muslims pay zakaah which goes to support the poor, state etc, and the non muslims living in the muslim state pay a small tax called jizya which is also used to support the state, needy etc.

When the non muslims pay this tax, their blood and honor is protected - hence if an enemy enters the muslim land to fight - it is the muslims duty to protect the non muslims aswell as the muslims in that state.



Peace.

 

[Muezzin]

From terrorist plots to Jizya, via Theo Van Gogh. Only in the World Affairs section...

 

[Cognescenti]

yes,

i found it quite alarming when i was a non muslim but i accepted it.

this is because if someone accepts something as from God as they accept the sources for it then really such a person having submitted themselves totally to God would not find it alarming.

so i would ask the non muslim to look at the central arguments of islam, pure unadultorated monoetheism and its sources, the Quran and Sunnah.

if they accept those matters as true and correct then everything else is fine but as believers we cannot pick and choose what we like and dont like and having Allah be pleased with me because i defend the way of life he has given for mankind is more important than you liking me.

Abu Abdullah

Right. I understand the theological concept of "submission". In fact, it is not entirely unique to Islam, but is perhaps more central in Islamic thought.

But, the problem here is really a catch-22. If a non Muslim is troubled by what appears to be a somewhat arbitrary system for issuing death edicts from thousands of miles away by a person whom he has never met and whom would likely not accept his protestations in the unlikely event that they were to meet he need only "submit" to the religion which he finds troubling in the first place and everything will be fine???:uuh:

Saying that a believer must not question is one thing (a mistake if you ask me but at least understandible as there was apparentlya voluntary acceptance of the religion)...saying that a non-believer may not question is quite another.

I can understand economic boycott or shunning or even social shame directed towards an odious critic, but murder??? Note that the Catholic Church engaged in Heresy trials 500-600 yrs ago. It didn't stop Calvin or Luther or other reformers and now is a serious embarrassment.

 

[Cognescenti]

this Jizya is now modern day tax for residence,electrcity ,gas,car ,tax for properties,etc.

Fair enough, but another poster suggested a non-payor of Jizya could be killed for refusal to pay. That seems extreme to me. What happened to just turning his elelctricity off?

 

[Cognescenti]

the gain is that people are no longer so free to insult Allah and his messenger, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him.

disagree with us fine, but insults... i would have thought theo van gogh and the danish matter as well as salman rushdie would have taught the west better and i certainly think it has.

Abu Abdullah

Dawud;

But virtually nobody in the West, except perhaps a very small literary crowd, ever heard of Rushdie before the issuance of a fatwa against him. As far as I can tell from interviews, the guy is an insufferable pedant and I don't think I would read one of his books if I were stuck on a desert isle for 30 years. Before 9-11, it was funny, and it was hard to have any sympathy for the guy. Of course, it isn't funny any more, but I don't think the West is learning the lesson you want them to learn. You can't condone such idiocy as the murder of Van Gough and, at the same time complain when MI5 starts looking for a terrorist in every mosque. The Dutch were a bastion of multi-culturism. Not any more. If Islamic hard-liners push the Western Europeans hard enough, you will have a crop of leaders that make Bush look like a peacenik.

A good example was the recent Danish production of a Mozart opera which was cancelled because of Muslim opposition to the depiction of the Prophet. Those cancelling the performance were labled as cowards and back it comes.

It might be good to counsel restraint before you have 600 million people in charge of 3/4 of the world economy mad at you. I don't think anything good will come of it. Better would be a western-style campaign of education. In general, human beings don't purposely offend other human beings if the offended party can communciate what they find offensive without the use of a death threat.

 

[- Qatada -]

Fair enough, but another poster suggested a non-payor of Jizya could be killed for refusal to pay. That seems extreme to me. What happened to just turning his elelctricity off?

Umar ibn Al-Khattaab, a successor and companion of the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) allowed an old jewish man freedom from paying jizya because he was too old and too poor to pay the jizya. He said similar about other old, poor non muslims living in the islamic state. Yet they were still under muslim protection.


Peace.

 

[Skillganon]

I think we should let the police handle the suspects and giver them a trial.

If they are involved in something bad than hopefully they will be dealt accordingly with fair manner.
If they didn't they will be requited. Hopefully they will be given a fair trial. Innocent before proven Guilty, and let's stop this trial by media.

So let's not condemn or say anything before the trial.

 

[Malaikah]

If Van Gough were, indeed, trying to start a relgious war, then there are secular laws in the Netherlands to deal with him. I have; however, never heard such a claim before and find it preposterous in the extreme that a Dutch army would march on Mecca.

I wasn't talking about him, I was talking about another person who tried to start a war during the prophets time, some 1400 years ago!

It seems to me, the real threat was that Van Gough might cause practicing Dutch Muslims to question their faith.

He insulted God, His Creator and Sustainer. He insulted the Prophet, the man who went through unimaginable hardships for the sake of mankind. He spread lies about Islam, thereby weakening the Muslims who are already weak in faith, and giving the non-Muslims further reason to dislike Islam and discriminate against Muslim, and be the cause of their entering the hell-fire for eternity. And the list goes on...

It was certainly more than just causing a few Muslim to question their faith.

 

[Keltoi]

I wasn't talking about him, I was talking about another person who tried to start a war during the prophets time, some 1400 years ago!



He insulted God, His Creator and Sustainer. He insulted the Prophet, the man who went through unimaginable hardships for the sake of mankind. He spread lies about Islam, thereby weakening the Muslims who are already weak in faith, and giving the non-Muslims further reason to dislike Islam and discriminate against Muslim, and be the cause of their entering the hell-fire for eternity. And the list goes on...

It was certainly more than just causing a few Muslim to question their faith.

However, I assume you aren't attempting to justify shooting a man 6 times in the back and then cutting his throat are you?

 

[Malaikah]

No, I wasn't.