Evolution - Creationism

You just can't resist can you wilberhum.
Evolution based on facts? Give me one fact that proves common descent.
Evolution is scientific? Ok, then falsify it, then show me empirical testing, then present me mechanistic theories.

Just one of each will do :)
You are right. I couldn't resist. That is one thing we have in common. We both know that you are more stubron than me and will never accept even to most obvious statements. As you know there is no "Proof" of common desent, just millions of indications. For me a million indications outweight a cupple of old books.
 
You are right. I couldn't resist. That is one thing we have in common. We both know that you are more stubron than me and will never accept even to most obvious statements. As you know there is no "Proof" of common desent, just millions of indications. For me a million indications outweight a cupple of old books.

I marvel at the way you play with words.

First you say that I'm stuborn not to accept an obvious statement.
The statement was: Evolution is based on facts.
Then I ask give me one fact that proofs common descent, and you reply there is none, so which one is it? Millions of litle facts that can be interpreted both ways but you chose to see as proof out of convenience?

Anyway, how about the empirical testing and the mechanistic theories to make it scientific... you didn't say anything in respond to that ...
 
Nothing in the real world can be proved with absolute certainty.

However, high degrees of certainty can be reached. In the case of evolution, we have huge amounts of data from diverse fields. Extensive evidence exists in all of the following different forms (Theobald 2004). Each new piece of evidence tests the rest.

1/ All life shows a fundamental unity in the mechanisms of replication, heritability, catalysis, and metabolism.

2/ Common descent predicts a nested hierarchy pattern, or groups within groups. We see just such an arrangement in a unique, consistent, well-defined hierarchy, the so-called tree of life.

3/ Different lines of evidence give the same arrangement of the tree of life. We get essentially the same results whether we look at morphological, biochemical, or genetic traits.

4/ Fossil animals fit in the same tree of life. We find several cases of transitional forms in the fossil record.

5/ The fossils appear in a chronological order, showing change consistent with common descent over hundreds of millions of years and inconsistent with sudden creation.

6/ Many organisms show rudimentary, vestigial characters, such as sightless eyes or wings useless for flight.

7/ Atavisms sometimes occur. An atavism is the reappearance of a character present in a distant ancestor but lost in the organism's immediate ancestors. We only see atavisms consistent with organisms' evolutionary histories.

8/ Ontogeny (embryology and developmental biology) gives information about the historical pathway of an organism's evolution. For example, as embryos whales and many snakes develop hind limbs that are reabsorbed before birth.
The distribution of species is consistent with their evolutionary history. For example, marsupials are mostly limited to Australia, and the exceptions are explained by continental drift. Remote islands often have species groups that are highly diverse in habits and general appearance but closely related genetically. Squirrel diversity coincides with tectonic and sea level changes (Mercer and Roth 2003). Such consistency still holds when the distribution of fossil species is included.

9/ Evolution predicts that new structures are adapted from other structures that already exist, and thus similarity in structures should reflect evolutionary history rather than function. We see this frequently. For example, human hands, bat wings, horse legs, whale flippers, and mole forelimbs all have similar bone structure despite their different functions.
The same principle applies on a molecular level. Humans share a large percentage of their genes, probably more than 70 percent, with a fruit fly or a nematode worm.

10/ When two organisms evolve the same function independently, different structures are often recruited. For example, wings of birds, bats, pterosaurs, and insects all have different structures. Gliding has been implemented in many additional ways. Again, this applies on a molecular level, too.

11/ The constraints of evolutionary history sometimes lead to suboptimal structures and functions. For example, the human throat and respiratory system make it impossible to breathe and swallow at the same time and make us susceptible to choking.

12/ Suboptimality appears also on the molecular level. For example, much DNA is nonfunctional. Some nonfunctional DNA, such as certain transposons, pseudogenes, and endogenous viruses, show a pattern of inheritance indicating common ancestry.

13/ Speciation has been observed.
The day-to-day aspects of evolution -- heritable genetic change, morphological variation and change, functional change, and natural selection -- are seen to occur at rates consistent with common descent. Furthermore, the different lines of evidence are consistent; they all point to the same big picture. For example, evidence from gene duplications in the yeast genome shows that its ability to ferment glucose evolved about eighty million years ago. Fossil evidence shows that fermentable fruits became prominent about the same time. Genetic evidence for major change around that time also is found in fruiting plants and fruit flies (Benner et al. 2002).

The evidence is extensive and consistent, and it points unambiguously to evolution, including common descent, change over time, and adaptation influenced by natural selection. It would be preposterous to refer to these as anything other than facts

Could the creationists now post YOUR "EVIDENCE"

Thanks...........
 
Not another evolution debate...

I don't think people should get so fired up about it. Live and let live, think freely, and be excellent to each other.
 
5/ The fossils appear in a chronological order, showing change consistent with common descent over hundreds of millions of years and inconsistent with sudden creation.

I would love to hear about the dating methods of the fossils.
 
Tons of sites on google boast your "high degrees of certainty" How embaressing for you this cut and paste job!.. Do you have a mind of your own or is this where your rudimentary vestigial remnant presides?

common ancestors, genetic drift, morphological change, survival of the fittest, Embryology, yeast, change over time, adaptation, natural selection. ..........scatology. you have met the quota of most convuloted words per day.... Do you understand half of the stuff you posted up there? why or why not it would remotly negate the existence of a creator?

You decide to use your right hand all the time, it hypertrophies --you neglect and disuse your left and it atrophies so much it becomes non-functional-- and you being a natural leader decide to invade a tribe and run a little experiment ...where you won't be judged harshly for your freakish arms; and view of a new superior one armed human race! All the people in the village in which you are now king follow in your lead until their left hand falls off over time from disuse... yipee yay kayay.. & with this you have now proven that G-D doesn't exist?

......a few generations down the line new folks come strolling in your town with two arms and intermarry with your village of freaks and voila Atavism woho a couple of you have arms G-D exists yet again and man in perfect form?

....... you open a state of the art lab and go in a double blinded random study indiscriminately sampling folks, animals and plants from various sites and discover all the components from the various tissues are made of the exact same organic substances and proteins in different isometric structures and spatial arrangements, and suddenly you conclude we've all come from monkeys and whales and share common ancestry? and oh let me throw in there that it should also denote that G-D doesn't exist?

creatures have existed millions and billions of years and are fossilized they share common genetic makeup with us made of the same stuff...these new books about G-D are a fairly new so that must mean he couldn't exist?

what do you know of creation except cliff notes from various blogs of which you have mustered the art plagiarizing ? a shame all you write is someone else's eloquent view... I don't understand remotely how you can tie humans acquiescing to the environment, creatures acquiescing to nature and all the events that run like clock works, changing, morphing acquiescing, losing or gaining traits having traits in common genetic drifiting, dominance or recessiveness of genes to mean that a governing deity doesn't exist? Have you actually read the Quran or any books preceding it? If for nothing else just simply to loan credence to your drivel! or for curiosity' sake.. like you would casually read a history book or the Canterbury tales, So that when you write you'd be more insightful and less abraisive...

It is tiresome this recycled hyperbolic rhetoric "proof", "truth" behaving like a clever 2 year old who has run an adult in a corner... -------

-- I can't believe I wasted my time on this... I really have no one to blame but myself--I am ready to take another hiatus, please take all the time in the world to come up with one of you derisive & expected replies!.... I have lost all interest in this ad hominem!
........ beam me up scotty....
 
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Hi root, I'm sorry but your points don't cut the mustard they're full of Bias

1/ All life shows a fundamental unity in the mechanisms of replication, heritability, catalysis, and metabolism.
That fact is equally consistence with creationism, if it aint broken, don't fix it. Why would God have gone trough completely different mechanisms when obviously these are quite effective?

2/ Common descent predicts a nested hierarchy pattern, or groups within groups. We see just such an arrangement in a unique, consistent, well-defined hierarchy, the so-called tree of life.
That's a straw man, the nest only proves micro-evolution, not macro-evolution. A person who believes in micro-evolution but not macro-evolution would just as well have predicted the emergence of such nests. So that emergence doesn't necessarily prove common descent, in fact the many missing links tend to suggest that common descent is false.

3/ Different lines of evidence give the same arrangement of the tree of life. We get essentially the same results whether we look at morphological, biochemical, or genetic traits.
Well, that's only for the nests, the micro-evolution, not the macro-evolution.

4/ Fossil animals fit in the same tree of life. We find several cases of transitional forms in the fossil record.
Yet at the same time there are incredible gaps in the fossil record, again showing us that micro-evolution is probable, but macro is improbable.

5/ The fossils appear in a chronological order, showing change consistent with common descent over hundreds of millions of years and inconsistent with sudden creation.
Yet at the same time there are cases of unexplainable fossils who were found in layers they don't belong in, or different fossils of different alleged steps of evolution almost all originating from the same time-period.

6/ Many organisms show rudimentary, vestigial characters, such as sightless eyes or wings useless for flight.
But the intermediate stages still make it troublesome to explain the evolutionary step in between them in a mechanistic theory as it is still likely that such a change would involve mutation in several genes at once who are located on different spots.

7/ Atavisms sometimes occur. An atavism is the reappearance of a character present in a distant ancestor but lost in the organism's immediate ancestors. We only see atavisms consistent with organisms' evolutionary histories.
In a way, atavism could just as well be held as an argument of inconsistency with the evolutionary three. The theory that it was dormant in the in between species is just a way out of the inconsistency until it is proven.

8/ Ontogeny (embryology and developmental biology) gives information about the historical pathway of an organism's evolution. For example, as embryos whales and many snakes develop hind limbs that are reabsorbed before birth.
The distribution of species is consistent with their evolutionary history. For example, marsupials are mostly limited to Australia, and the exceptions are explained by continental drift. Remote islands often have species groups that are highly diverse in habits and general appearance but closely related genetically. Squirrel diversity coincides with tectonic and sea level changes (Mercer and Roth 2003). Such consistency still holds when the distribution of fossil species is included.
Again, micro-evolution, not macro evolution.

9/ Evolution predicts that new structures are adapted from other structures that already exist, and thus similarity in structures should reflect evolutionary history rather than function. We see this frequently. For example, human hands, bat wings, horse legs, whale flippers, and mole forelimbs all have similar bone structure despite their different functions.
The same principle applies on a molecular level. Humans share a large percentage of their genes, probably more than 70 percent, with a fruit fly or a nematode worm.
If it ain't broken, don't fix it. For the thousand time, you cannot argue that similarity is a proof for condescend.

10/ When two organisms evolve the same function independently, different structures are often recruited. For example, wings of birds, bats, pterosaurs, and insects all have different structures. Gliding has been implemented in many additional ways. Again, this applies on a molecular level, too.
Why should God have made different mechanisms when these obviously are great? If it ain't broken, don't fix it.

11/ The constraints of evolutionary history sometimes lead to suboptimal structures and functions. For example, the human throat and respiratory system make it impossible to breathe and swallow at the same time and make us susceptible to choking.
Suboptimal is extremely difficult to establish. I'm not saying our bodies are perfect in the Utopian sense, but I do think they are perfect in the sense that they more benefits then all alternatives. To suggest otherwise one would have to come up with a hypotetical "better" alternative. And of course it's incredible hard determining whether or not it would be "better" since we have no way of testing the hypothetical alternative.

12/ Suboptimality appears also on the molecular level. For example, much DNA is nonfunctional. Some nonfunctional DNA, such as certain transposons, pseudogenes, and endogenous viruses, show a pattern of inheritance indicating common ancestry.
Just because we haven't found the use of it doesn't mean it's useless. A lot of genes that were considered garbage DNA could still have certain use.
As for ERV (endogenous retro-viruses) proving our common descent, have you read my latest post in the Evolution-ERV-sticky-topic? Recent studies have shown that Aids (a retrovirus) most likely carries enzymes with 'm that dictates the insertion point it takes when infecting a cell's DNA. So The theory that different species have similar insertion points due to similar methods of infection rather then condescend again rises in credebility.

13/ Speciation has been observed.
The day-to-day aspects of evolution -- heritable genetic change, morphological variation and change, functional change, and natural selection -- are seen to occur at rates consistent with common descent. Furthermore, the different lines of evidence are consistent; they all point to the same big picture. For example, evidence from gene duplications in the yeast genome shows that its ability to ferment glucose evolved about eighty million years ago. Fossil evidence shows that fermentable fruits became prominent about the same time. Genetic evidence for major change around that time also is found in fruiting plants and fruit flies (Benner et al. 2002). The evidence is extensive and consistent, and it points unambiguously to evolution, including common descent, change over time, and adaptation influenced by natural selection. It would be preposterous to refer to these as anything other than facts
These only show us that micro-evolution is possible. As I said before, I don't have any problems with that.



Could the creationists now post YOUR "EVIDENCE"
Thanks...........

I don't see why I should post evidence. I never claimed that the theory of creationism was based on facts and was scientific. Instead wilberhum said that about evolution, even though he knows only micro-evolution is proven and common descent isn't at all proven and isn't at all scientific. I think my replies to your arguments have shown that sufficiently.
 
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There are millions of facts that support evolution. I assume that you don't understand the concept of a "Scientific Theory". If not, you are debating against what you don't understand.
:sl:

Is evolution still going on or has it stopped now?
If it has since when?
Is anyone one here today who knows that his/her great, great, great grandpappy was a monkey?
also could you elaborate a bit about, which field of science you have your masters degree?

Thank you kindly
 
Is evolution still going on or has it stopped now?
It will continue as long as there is any life form.
Is anyone one here today who knows that his/her great, great, great grandpappy was a monkey?
Statements like this proves that either you don't understand what is said about human evolution or you chose to distort it.
also could you elaborate a bit about, which field of science you have your masters degree?
No degree, just average intellegance and I don't suffer from Self Imposed Ignorance.
 
this evolution vs. creationism discussion is something I don't. in my country Church has much too much influence, but we never had such a discussion. I had to attend religion classes since I was 7 until I was 19. And never ever there was any discussion about creationism.
Let's scientists do their job. They say it is probably evolution. I hope they know what they are saying.
Whatever phenomena they will discover in this world I believe that God in behind it. He is the Creator. even if He "used" evolution.
 
Let's scientists do their job. They say it is probably evolution. I hope they know what they are saying.
Whatever phenomena they will discover in this world I believe that God in behind it. He is the Creator. even if He "used" evolution.

Then by your statement I can assume that you do not believe the story of Genesis, on how the world was created?
 
Then by your statement I can assume that you do not believe the story of Genesis, on how the world was created?

Maybe the garden of eden was a puddle and Adam and Eve were bacteria? :D

Maybe God was a scientist in an alien lab and the Garden of Eden was contained within a petri dish.

Good sci fi topic we got goin here now.
 
Maybe the garden of eden was a puddle and Adam and Eve were bacteria? :D

Maybe God was a scientist in an alien lab and the Garden of Eden was contained within a petri dish.

Good sci fi topic we got goin here now.
I laughed, despite myself.

I take the middle ground, in this debate. That is to say, i believe in the existence of God and i believe that He created all things but i also believe that He uses evolution via natural selection as His tool. Contrary to what a lot of people may think, science and religion doesn't necessarily have to be at odds especially Islam which confirms a lot of the theories found within science such as the theory of the Big Bang.
 
Drastically condensed version:

Creationism; according to the Bible, Allah made whales, cows, and so on. Then He made man. The man, Adam, named things for a while, was lonely, so Allah put him to sleep. During the sleep, rib taken, woman made. The end.

Me thinks that evolution wasn't used by Allah. It says in the Bible that Adam did his own thing for a while, and then AFTER a bit, Allah made woman. Me thinks that if evolution was used by Him, man and woman woulda been there at the same time.
 
I see 3 problems.

1. Nobody has the ability to replicate creationism.

2. Nobody can replicate evolution

3. Until one of us can replicate our belief we will never be able to convince the other how our belief can work.
 

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