Discussion/Questions on Sikhism

[cali dude]

Muslim Woman and all others, as I have explained this many times, Sikh scripture is more of a spiritual guidance rather than a book of rules and regulation to live your personal life. Since you keep asking about the minimum to get married, yes we use the age what's legal age of the country we live in. Usually the age difference between husband and wife is no more than five years.

Now why doesn't it make sense to us for someone to marry someone who is young enough to his daughter?

Let me ask all this one question.

What kind of society would you rather live and raise your kids in?

From what I have learnt so far on this site especially from Fi_Sabilillah, it's OK to have lust in Islamic culture as long as you use it positively. So if you have lust towards someone, it's OK as long as you marry her even if there is huge difference in age and even if she is only nine years old.

So let me ask you this, would you feel safe raising your children in such an environment where a 40 years old doesn't treat a nine years old girl as his own child and could have lust for her as even marry her?

Or would you feel safer raising your children in a society where people treat your child just as their own children and you have no fear that you child would be seduced at young age?

 

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

So if you have lust towards someone, it's OK as long as you marry her even if there is huge difference in age and even if she is only nine years old.

Just to clarify, the Messenger's marriage to Aisha' was a divine commandment, and there was nothing wrong with it at all.

 

[One Man Army]

brother what do you mean by divine comandment?

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

Just to clarify, the Messenger's marriage to Aisha' was a divine commandment, and there was nothing wrong with it at all.

If Mohammed was commanded, then why are other people copying?

 

[cali dude]

My main question is do sikhs believe that if a person dies, in what way will they become with God?

Nobody ever becomes God but there are people whose soul is merged into God's spirit. To simplify things, it's said that it's like a small merging into a larger flame. But it doesn't necessarily mean that the larger flame gets even larger when two flames are merged. This is simply said for the explanation purpose.

No, you don't have to die to find this out. It happens to those, the blessed ones, while living this life.

 

[- Qatada -]

This is what brother Ansar said in a thread link which i posted earlier, but you guys chose to ignore:

"Again, this is probably the most obvious strawmen visible. I am not saying it is okay for any man to marry any nine year old girl, I am specifically speaking about Aisha rd."

"I'm not speaking about anyone, I am speaking about the Prophet Muhammad pbuh and Aisha - I clarified this in my last post."
​

So the issue here is whether the marriage of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh to A'ishah was harmful and immoral, NOT whether early marriages in other societies could be classified as such. What is confirmed is that A'ishah was mature and post-pubescent, her marriage to the Prophet was acceptable by cultural norms, she did not bear children which is something God knew before He commanded the Prophet to marry her, and A'ishah did not suffer any harm. Much to the contrary, she lived a very outspoken and public life as a religious scholar and leading figure and she always had the best things to say about the Prophet Muhammad saws.



As for the purpose of this marriage, it was purely for sociopolitical reason. The Prophet’s main concern was the future of Islam. He was interested in strengthening the Muslims by all bonds. This also explains the reason why he married the daughter of `Umar, his Second Successor. It was by his marriage to Juwayriyyah that he gained the support for Islam of the whole clan of Bani Al-Mustaliq and their allied tribes. It was through his marriage to Safiyyah that he neutralized a great section of the hostile Jews of Arabia. By accepting Mariya, the Copt from Egypt, as his wife, he formed a political alliance with a king of great magnitude. So his marriage to `Aisha could never be of anything save cementing his relation with Abu Bakr, `Aisha’s father. (SOURCE)



The truth of this matter is that just because an action is done by the Prophet pbuh does not make it a part of the religion. If the Prophet ordered others to do it, then it would acquire the status of wâjib, or obligatory. If he did not order us to do it but he recommended it or promised a reward for it, then it would acquire the religious ruling of mustahab or recommended.

But other actions like riding a camel or wearing a turban or various cultural practices do not have religious significance. It is only what the prophet commands or recommends. But in this case, we see neither!! In fact, not only is there no recommendation at all in Islam to marry at such an age, but it is forbidden if there is any risk of danger associated with the marriage.

http://www.islamicboard.com/587743-post147.html


That answers alot of the misunderstandings you have.



By the way, you guys continously ignore what we say, we've proven that there were revered sikhis who did perform polygamy, so it's not only islaam.

And avar, maybe you could prove how much people actually get married to a 9yr old in todays times? Why do you guys claim something as if its a fact if you don't even have no proof whatsoever for it?

 

[- Qatada -]

Nobody ever becomes God but there are people whose soul is merged into God's spirit. To simplify things, it's said that it's like a small merging into a larger flame. But it doesn't necessarily mean that the larger flame gets even larger when two flames are merged. This is simply said for the explanation purpose.

No, you don't have to die to find this out. It happens to those, the blessed ones, while living this life.

That big flame takes in the small flame right? And when it does that - it becomes the new flame. And if we were to put a candle in it, then it would capture a new flame [not that earlier specific one] - so it really seems questionable and also doubtful.

 

[One Man Army]

lol bro its an example. no its not a new flame. its like two lights shining and merging. it cant be a new one as the original flame or light was the same as the original when it ws sepearated into this human body. its like water merging into water:

The rays of light merge with the sun, and water merges with water.
One's light blends with the Light, and one becomes totally perfect.
I see God, hear God, and speak of the One and only God.
The soul is the Creator of the expanse of creation. Without God, I know no other at all.
He Himself is the Creator, and He Himself is the Enjoyer. He created the Creation.
Prays Nanak, they alone know this, who drink in the subtle essence of the Lord. ||4||2||

 

[cali dude]

That big flame takes in the small flame right? And when it does that - it becomes the new flame. And if we were to put a candle in it, then it would capture a new flame [not that earlier specific one] - so it really seems questionable and also doubtful.

Sometimes, things are explained giving closest examples we humans could possibly understand. Things aren't exactly the way we envision but they are the closest to how we could possibly understand them. We could completely understand them only when we experience them ourselves.

 

[- Qatada -]

Seriosly, this just seems like the trinity to me. It's like saying 3 is 1, except the difference is that there are many spirits which 'become' God. There's no clear definition is there?

In islaam its simple - we believe in God, His true messengers, and if we submit to God - then we be in His kingdom with His presence, in a state that He is pleased with us. Those who reject and turnaway are punished because they took God's message in jest.


Now you see that we don't become God, nor do we believe that humans can become that way. God doesn't incarnate within His creation because He only does what befits His Majesty. So He doesn't need to have a son, nor does He have to have His creation unite with Him, the Self-Sufficient.


Regards.

 

[Muslim Woman]

...........Or would you feel safer raising your children in a society where people treat your child just as their own children and you have no fear that you child would be seduced at young age?

---what do u mean by suduced ? U can't marry a girl by force or without her permission. U must send marriage proposal to her parent ; If they think u r good enough to be her husband , then they must take her permission. No one can force her in to marriage.


All Sikhs do not consider young grils as daughters. I will Insha Allah try to find about that Sikh writer who wrote how he enjoyed girls who were younger than his kids. He proudly claimed that he is still capable of doing that ( i forgot his age ......most probably 70 + )

Don't u think , the Thai parent should have arranged marriage of their 9 years old girl long ago to avoid the illegal relationship she had with boyfriend ?

Islam is a practical religion . Islam gives solutions to problems

If a girl is matured enough , why she should be adopted ? Do u know , in the West how many girls are raped by step-dads ?

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace,


in few sites , many lies & hatred are there against Islam & the last Prophet (p). I asked an author to take part here ; so that we all can discuss more.

may i request all to do the same i.e. those who have misconception against Islam , ask them to know about Islam from Islamic sites ?


can anybody give me e-mail add of any Sikh Guru/scholar who will give answers by e-mails ? Thanks.

 

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


Ukhti, please can you edit your post and remove that because we know its all lies because Aa'isha may Allaah be pleased with her never even had children lol, women are allowed to pray in the masaajid, and we're not allowed to post anti islamic articles on the site.

Jazaak Allaahu khayrun.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace

:salamext:


Ukhti, please can you edit your post and remove that because we know its all lies because Aa'isha may Allaah be pleased with her never even had children lol, women are allowed to pray in the masaajid, and we're not allowed to post anti islamic articles on the site.

Jazaak Allaahu khayrun.

-- it's a good idea to remove the link......sorry to post the anti-Islamic site.

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

By the way, you guys continously ignore what we say, we've proven that there were revered sikhis who did perform polygamy, so it's not only islaam.

And avar, maybe you could prove how much people actually get married to a 9yr old in todays times? Why do you guys claim something as if its a fact if you don't even have no proof whatsoever for it?

Practice what you preach bro..... Lets see the actual evidence Polagamy is allowed in Sikhi, make it stand up in court if neccessary

 

[- Qatada -]

Can you find anywhere else apart from that post which makes a statement into a fact?

And the reason why i will say that as a fact is because guru gobind singh is one of the ten gurus' - he is revered among the sikhs. So his example can be imitated by anyone, and those who follow his example can say that they're following the true guidance. Especially since it was him who made the Guru Granth Sahib aswell.

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

Can you find anywhere else apart from that post which makes a statement into a fact?

And the reason why i will say that as a fact is because Guru Gobind Singh is one of the ten gurus' - he is revered among the sikhs. So his example can be imitated by anyone, and those who follow his example can say that they're following the true guidance. Especially since it was him who made the Guru Granth Sahib aswell.

Here is an explanation of Guru Gobind Singh Ji and his one wife.

Enjoy the read....

The wrong impression that the Guru had more than one wife was created by those writers who were ignorant of punjabi culture. Later authors accepted those writings regarding more than one marriage of the Guru and presented other important people usually had more than one wife as a symbol of their being great and superior to the common man. Guru Gobind Singh, being a true king, was justified in their eyes to have more than one wife. This is actually incorrect. In the Punjab, there are two and sometimes three big functions connected with a marriage, i.e., engagement, wedding and Muklawa. Big gatherings and singings are held at all these three functions. In many cases, engagements were held as soon as one had passed the baby stage. Even today, engagements at 8-12 years age are not uncommon in some interior parts of the country. The wedding is performed a couple of years after the engagement. After the wedding, it takes another couple of years for the bride to move in with her in-laws and live there. This is called Muklawa. Dowry and other gifts to the bride are usually given at the time of this ceremony to help her to establish a new home.


A big befitting function and other joyful activities were held at Anandpur, according to the customs, at the time of the engagement of the Guru. The bride, Mata Jeeto Ji, resided in Lahore which was the capital of the Mughal rulers, who were not on good terms with the Gurus. When the time for the marriage ceremony came, it was not considered desirable for the Guru to go to Lahore along with Sikhs in large numbers. Furthermore, it would involve a lot of inconvenience to the Sangat, young and old, who wished to witness the marriage of the Guru. Therefore, as mentioned in the Sikh chronicles, Lahore was 'brought' to Anandpur Sahib for the marriage instead of the Guru going to Lahore. A scenic place, a couple of miles to the north of Anandpur was developed into a nice camp for the marriage. This place was named Guru Ka Lahore. People going to Anandpur visit this place as well. The bride was brought to this place by her parents and the marriage was celebrated with a very huge gathering attending the ceremony.


The two elaborate functions, one at the time of engagement and the other at the time of the marriage of the Guru, gave the outside observers the impression of two marriages. They had the reason to feel like that because a second name was also there, i.e., Mata Sundari Ji. After the marriage, there is a custom in the Punjab to give a new affectionate name to the bride by her in-laws. Mata Jeeto Ji because of her fine features and good looks, was named Sundari (beautiful) by the Guru's mother. The two names and two functions gave a cause to the outsiders to believe that the Guru had two wives. In fact, the Guru had one wife with two names as explained above.


There is one more very important function in the life of the Guru and the Sikhs. It took place in 1699 when the Guru founded the Khalsa Panth. For preparation of Amrit, he took a Khanda and a Bata (bowl) and asked Mata Sahib Kaur to bring Patasas (puffed sugar) for adding to the water in the Bata. Thus, Guru Gobind Singh and Mata Sahib Kaur jointly particpated in preparing Amrit. Alongwith firmness like steel, weetness is another great character of the Khalsa, gifted respectively by Guru Gobind Singh and Mata Sahib Kaur to them. Whereas Guru Gobind Singh is recognized as the spiritual father of the Khalsa, Mata Sahib Kaur is recognized as the spiritual mother of the Khalsa.


Again, people not conversant with the Amrit ceremony mistakenly assume that Mata Sahib Kaur was the wife of Guru Gobind Singh. As Guru Gobind Singh is the spiritual father but not hte physical father of the khalsa, Mata Sahib Kaur is the spiritual mother of the Khalsa but not the physical wife of the Guru Gobind Singh. Because of their ignorance of the Punjabi culture and the Amrit ceremony, some writers mistook these three names of the women in the life of Guru Gobind Singh as the names of three wives. Another reason for this misunderstanding is that the parents of Mata Sahib Kaur had decided to marry her to Guru Gobind Singh. When the proposal was brought for discussion at Anandpur, the Guru said that he could not have another wife because he was already married. The dilemma before the parents of the girl was that, the proposal having become public, no Sikh would be willing to marry her. The Guru agreed for her stay at Anandpur but without accepting her as is wife. The question arose, as every woman desires to have a child, how she could have one without being married. The Guru said, "She will be the mother of a great son who will live forever and be known all over the world." The people understood the hidden meaning of his statement only after the Guru associated Mata Sahib Kaur with preparing Amrit by bringing Patasas. It is, therefore, ignorant to consider Mata Sahib Kaur as the worldly wife of Guru Gobind Singh.

Gur Fateh

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace ,

Here is an explanation of Guru Gobind Singh Ji and his one wife.

Enjoy the read....

I will Insha Allah try to read later. I dont understand one thing. If polygamy is totally banned in ur religion , it means it's not giving practical solutions in many cases. As i mentioned earlier , Dr. Jamal asks if a young man's wife is bed ridden , then it's the Islam that gives a logical solution .


A Husband can enjoy a normal life without divorcing his sick wife. Now give me ur honest answer------ Which one is a better solution ? To divorce the sick wife , remain as a bachelor ( that may not be possible for many men ) or go for adultery ?

A man who is not satistfied with one wife, what Sikhism is giving solution for him ? Take example of Khushbant Singh , famous Sikh writer , who had ' few dozens' illegal wives ...because of man made laws , many men are forced to commit adultery. They want to have more wives but can't .


Anyway , Islam did not introduce polygamy , instead Islam set up a maximum limit . Many Prophets (pbut ) who are respected by Jews , Christians , Muslims had more than one wife. Are u trying to say that they all committed sins ?


It's not compulsory for Muslim men to have more than 1 wife.....it's allowed only when needed & with condition. Just because ur religion does not allow it ( if it's true ) , it does not mean that all other major religions in the world are wrong.

 

[- Qatada -]

Thanks avar, never knew that. I'm from the punjab and i don't hear people giving their daughter inlaws nicknames, but that probably was customs of the past.


What does this mean?

It is, therefore, ignorant to consider Mata Sahib Kaur as the worldly wife of Guru Gobind Singh.

What other wives are they according to sikhis apart from 'worldly wives'?

And who writ the Sikh Rehat Maryada? And when?

 

[cali dude]

I will Insha Allah try to read later. I dont understand one thing. If polygamy is totally banned in ur religion , it means it's not giving practical solutions in many cases. As i mentioned earlier , Dr. Jamal asks if a young man's wife is bed ridden , then it's the Islam that gives a logical solution.

Like I said before, Sikh scripture is more of spiritual guidance and doesn't tell people how to live their personal lives. Someone spiritually wise wouldn't need any directions to make decisions in personal life.

A Husband can enjoy a normal life without divorcing his sick wife. Now give me ur honest answer------ Which one is a better solution ? To divorce the sick wife , remain as a bachelor ( that may not be possible for many men ) or go for adultery ?

To take care of sick wife. In a marriage, husband and wife go through good times and bad times together. If the wife is suffering, if the husband finds another woman to satisfy his sexual needs, he is not a true partner. Finding another woman for sexual purpose is adultery, even if it's with sick wife's permission.

A man who is not satistfied with one wife, what Sikhism is giving solution for him ? Take example of Khushbant Singh , famous Sikh writer , who had ' few dozens' illegal wives ...because of man made laws , many men are forced to commit adultery. They want to have more wives but can't .

Why should there be solution for something that isn't even a legitimate problem? I didn't know Khushbant Singh had multiple affairs. If he did, he is a dirty old man.

But let me ask this now. What if a woman isn't satisfied, does she have a choice?