The Purpose Behind our Existence

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PurestAmbrosia:

If you will read the first chapter of my (free) online book at www.zenofzero.net, then maybe it will become clearer to you. Until you do, it seems highly inefficient for me to try to lead you through it, here, step by step -- not to dwell on the nuisance factor of your insulting me, evey step of the way.
 
[/QUOTE]So, again, there is too much knowledge for any one of us to be an expert in all fields; therefore, we must rely on the knowledge and honesty of others. Thus, for example, when you state “but in the context of congealing mass evolving into the life form that we are now... I just don't see it!”, my recommendation to you is that you consider what competent people knowledgeably and honestly report.
Knowledgeable and competent people used to report that the world was flat.
Knowledgeable and competant people used to report that blood letting was a great way to cure disease and illness.

I mean seriously...evolution and the atheist belief is just a stupid thought that will eventually be laid to rest, by science or by miracle.

No need to really argue about it, just let it happen, as the stupid ideas of the past have come to be know as stupid, so will evolution and atheism.
 
PurestAmbrosia: Three responses come to mind, in reaction to your statements:



1. When it took science so long to develop the theory of evolution, it seems inappropriate to call it “inherently instinctive”. Quantum mechanics is an even better example of something that’s not “inherently instinctive”. But both theories seem to work!

2. In general, I agree with your recommendation to “take charge of your own life and decide for yourself”, but reality has a way of imposing its restrictions on investigating everything on your own.

For example, from your posts, it would seem to be appropriate for me to seek your advice if I have medical problems. There isn’t time for me to learn all that you know. Similarly, I go to experts committed to the scientific method to learn about evolution, because there isn’t time for me to learn all that, for example, Dawkins knows. And similarly, my impression is that should you be interested, you might want to learn some from me about specific aspects of mathematics and the physical sciences, since I have my Ph.D. in those fields plus more than a decade of experience teaching them at various universities. Further, if you should seek information about specific aspects of environmental sciences, I have more than 20 years research experience in my specialty (with more than 50 open-literature publications), and when I retired, an international conference was named after me, to honor my accomplishments – at least I assume that was the reason, rather than their just being glad to get rid of me!

So, again, there is too much knowledge for any one of us to be an expert in all fields; therefore, we must rely on the knowledge and honesty of others. Thus, for example, when you state “but in the context of congealing mass evolving into the life form that we are now... I just don't see it!”, my recommendation to you is that you consider what competent people knowledgeably and honestly report.

And of course I agree that it’s wise to be skeptical (agreeing with your “And I won't [believe it] unless it can be duplicated scientifically…”), but I disagree with your “lots of theories are nice on paper but they have no place in life”. As you know, the scientific method starts by trying to make sense of some data (followed by proposing succinct hypotheses that have predictive power and that generally are consistent with well-established principles). In the case of how this universe came into existence, in particular, one can’t jump immediately to a “full-fledged theory”. At present, we’re trying to make sense of the data – and I maintain (and surely you agree) that such as step has an important “place in life”.

3. I would have you seriously reconsider your suggestion “follow what you know in your heart to be true”. That’s what’s called “the proof-by-pleasure fallacy”, which has caused humanity an enormous amount of harm -- and continues to do so.

To the contrary I think investigating things on your own would make you less a victim... anyone can hide behind jargon that you'd swear it is the truth! it is put in appropriate terms... how can it not make sense?
If we were to go by your logic we'd still be using something like digoxin for heart failure when it has absolutely no prospect on improving mortality or the quality of life... in favor for something like propanolol; which by all account would seem to have a contradictory affect!... after all physics dictates that a muscle that can no longer pump blood, should be given an inotropic agent to make it pump better-- not something to slow down the heart rate?... yet here we are by medical trial prove just that... to improve mortality someone in CHF would in fact need to go on a regimen that would include propanolol as an agent rather than digoxin the obvious choice! & then you try it out--you see it in your pts. so you can put that theory to work for humanity.

you don't have to be an expert in any field to exercise your brain.. I'd like to think that I can discuss Corregio's Jupiter and Io as much as I could the biosynthesis of heme... All you need is to be literate... to be able to read to have an inquisitive mind, to be able to process information.. to understand to ask questions to contradict to duplicate... to show some humility even in ignorance-- In essence the same things that bind us all to this form and weakness that is (the human condition) there is no reason to talk above somebody... there is no reason to expect that if it makes sense to one it should make sense to all or else leave it to the experts!...
and finally when you find an answer that satisfies you both heart and mind embrace it!... as opposed to being defiant in favor of some theorem that has no premises or logic .

I have actually called my Professor of Physics from under grad to ask of this (0=S-S)....... I admit I am not above learning, maybe some component is missing from my mind that disables me from making sense of this-- that I can't think of it in abstract terms?.... and it made no sense to him either... it is what he called (poetic-physics) ....

lastly, I don't know of the enormous harm you speak of? I have used before the analogy that religion is much like a knife --in the hand of a surgeon, a cook or a serial murder... each party does with it in accordance to what the heart perceives to be true, to what is satisfactory too skill and moral consciousness .... Yes it can be used immorally... it can be used to aid humanity... it can be used with no implications whatsoever--and can be used to commit massive atrocities, ultimately your individuality, your own morals is the decider... and that is what you'll eventually be accountable for!-- I am sorry if you feel insulted... but rather than referencing me to something you've written from which I am to infer what I may... explain it to me.. I admit that I am not by any measure the brightest pea in the Pod!... I consult with my peers and elders, and I ask questions like a 2nd grader... so go ahead and teach me and pls be ready to do it in lay man's terms because admittedly my brain capacitance isn't as developed as yours and I am always truly grateful when someone teaches me something!

peace!
 
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I mean seriously...evolution and the atheist belief is just a stupid thought that will eventually be laid to rest, by science or by miracle.
If that is the extent of your debating, then that's sad.
 
PurestAmbrosia:

To the contrary I think investigating things on your own would make you less a victim..

Thank you very much, but I don’t consider myself “a victim”!

you don't have to be an expert in any field to exercise your brain.. All you need is to be literate... to be able to read to have an inquisitive mind, to be able to process information.. to understand to ask questions to contradict to duplicate... to show some humility even in ignorance-- In essence the same things that bind us all to this form and weakness that is (the human condition) there is no reason to talk above somebody... there is no reason to expect that if it makes sense to one it should make sense to all or else leave it to the experts!...

Agreed. My wife estimates that I have read 1,000 books during the past 10 years. I don’t know – but I do know, that there’s much that I don’t know. In those areas where I feel my knowledge is deficient, I try to learn from those more knowledgeable.

I have actually called my Professor of Physics from under grad to ask of this (0=S-S)....... and it made no sense to him either... it is what he called (poetic-physics) ...

I can’t resist smiling to myself, imagining your conversation! I expect that he would revise his description of your description if he would go to my brief explanations at http://zenofzero.net/docs/Awareness.pdf and at www.advancedphysics.org/forum/showthread.php?t=6992 .

I don't know of the enormous harm you speak of [caused by the “proof-by-pleasure fallacy”]

That’s a big topic, that I’ll leave for another thread or for later in this thread (since I haven’t yet addressed your main request). Therefore, for here and for now (and no doubt stimulating your objection), let me just quote Nietzsche:

An agreeable opinion is accepted as true: this is the proof by pleasure (or, as the church says, the proof by strength), which all religions are so proud of, whereas they ought to be ashamed. If the belief did not make us happy, it would not be believed: how little must it then be worth!

I am sorry if you feel insulted... but rather than referencing me to something you've written from which I am to infer what I may... explain it to me.. so go ahead and teach me and pls be ready to do it in lay man's terms… I am always truly grateful when someone teaches me something!

Since you seem to object to going elsewhere to read it, then I’ll bring it to you. The following is from the referenced chapter. The book is explicitly written for my 16-year-old granddaughter (referred to as “Dear” in the text, hiding her name to protect her from religious extremists); yet, of course the book is intended for all teenagers who will invest the time to read it (which is why I put my “letters” to her on the internet); therefore, I will have failed if it’s not already in “layman’s terms”. I’ll paste relevant text below; I invite your comments and questions, and should you have any, I’ll do my best to convey the ideas to you more clearly.

The essence of the idea is that what’s here (i.e., this universe), in total, sums to totally nothing (i.e., zero) – exactly as it did before there was anything here. That’s a little of what I mean in the title of this book by “Zen of Zero”; later in this chapter I’ll give you more “hints” of what I mean – but I won’t complete my explanation until I get to the Z-chapters, one of which is entitled “Zen of Zero.”

Now, Dear, if your immediate response to my suggestion [that “what’s here (i.e., the universe), in total, sums to totally nothing (i.e., zero)”] is to conclude that I’m saying that there’s nothing here, then my response would be not only “Gimme a break” (i.e., be a little kinder) but also “Be a little more patient: I may be dumb, kid, but I ain’t that stupid!”

Seriously though, Dear, think, first, about how much electrical charge exists. You can charge your comb by combing your hair (as the plastic in your comb strips electrons from your hair, because of differences in the way electrons are bound in the molecules of plastic vs. in the molecules of your hair), but I assume you know that, when combing your hair, you didn’t create any electrical charge – you just separated the charges. That is, in total, your comb plus your hair has exactly the same electrical charge as it had before you commenced combing, summing exactly, in total, to zero electrical charge.

Similarly for all processes by which humans manipulate electrical charge, from making batteries to powering enormous power-transmission lines: we only separate charge; we never create it; in total, the electrical charge always sums to exactly zero. In fact, that’s a “general principle” of physics (called “the conservation of electrical charge” and based on an enormous number of experiments): electrical charge can never be created or destroyed, or equivalently, the net amount of electrical charge produced in any process is zero.

Further, I doubt if there’s a single physicist who would disagree with the concept that, in total, the electrical charge of the universe sums to exactly zero – although it’s rather difficult to test if that hypothesis is correct! In any event and in summary, what always seems to happen with electrical charge is that the “original zero” (charge) is just separated into exactly compensating positive and negative components.

This case of separating electrical charge will, perhaps, give you a first hint of why I use the term “the Zen of Zero” – although it’s only the slightest hint. The hint is this: the idea that electrical charges can’t be created but only separated is consistent with the Ancient Chinese idea of yin and yang, defined as follows [Footnote #1: Copied from http://barbaria.com/god/philosophy/zen/glossary.htm]

Yin and Yang: Principle of polarity in Chinese cosmology, in which the opposite poles eventually blend and become one another in a cosmic connectedness.

Now, Dear, it would take me longer to explain to you why, similarly, there appears to be, in total, no momentum in this universe. Maybe in your physics course you’ve already seen that momentum is always conserved during collisions in isolated systems (i.e., the total momentum is constant). If so, then I trust you’ll consider it obvious that, if before the Big Bang the total momentum of “the universe” was initially zero (which seems to be a totally obvious assumption, if there was nothing present!), then the total momentum in the universe must still sum to zero.

In the case of energy, maybe the idea that the total energy of the universe must be at least a constant won’t seem too foreign to you if you’ve seen the first “law” (or better, the first “principle”) of thermodynamics, which states that energy (similar to electrical charge) can only be changed from one form to another; it can’t be created or destroyed. That this constant value for the energy would be zero then follows, if initially (before the Big Bang) the energy was exactly zero (i.e., if the universe was created from nothing).

And let me add that, Dear, that if the above idea (that the total energy of the universe is zero) seems “weird” to you, given that you can see so many things whizzing around with so much kinetic energy, then prepare yourself for learning about even “weirder stuff” in later courses in physics. Thus, from Einstein’s work, mass is actually “solidified positive-energy” (according to his E = mc2) and from Dirac’s work, “space” or “the vacuum” is actually “brim full” with “negative energy” (which led to his prediction of “anti-particles”, i.e., “holes” in the negative-energy “vacuum”, and to his being awarded the 1933 Nobel Prize in Physics, along with one of the founders of quantum mechanics, Erwin Schrödinger).

But such details aside for now, if you can (at least for now) accept at least the possibility that, currently and in total, there’s no charge, momentum, and energy in our universe, then maybe you can begin to see what I mean by suggesting that there’s nothing here – and it must have been always so! Yet, if you don’t like the above demonstration, then maybe it would be helpful if I showed you the same idea using the simplest possible mathematics.

Thus, the challenge is to try to understand how ‘something’ could have arisen from ‘nothing’ – or stated differently, how ‘nothing’ could have yielded ‘something’. Mathematically, the question is: How could ‘nothing’ (i.e., zero = 0) lead to ‘something’, say represented by the symbol S?

Well, the answer to that question is obvious: 0 = S + ( – S ), i.e., nothing can obviously be separated into something plus its negative. Alternatively, with A = (pretty much Anything), B = Bosons, C = Charge, D = Dark Matter, E = Energy, F = Fermions, G = Gluons, H = Hadrons, I = (I dunno!), …, then “nothing” can be separated into any number of “things”:

0 = (A – A) + (B – B) + (C – C) + (D – D) + (E – E) + …

From this, I suggest that we humans experience “something” in this universe because the different parts (that sum to totally nothing) are separated. For example, the mass of all us humans is “merely” a particular arrangement of various “chunks” of positive energy, via Einstein’s E = mc2.

Thereby, Dear, the suggestion is that, “in the beginning”, there was totally nothing, nowhere, and with no time. And let me add that I expect that this original “total nothingness” still exists “outside” our universe, i.e., there’s totally nothing “there” – which is a meaningless statement, because without any momentum or energy “there”, then there is no “there”! This original “total nothingness” or “the original zero” had at least two options: sit there (nowhere!) and do nothing “for ever” (which is meaningless, since there was no time “there”) or “start bubbling” or “fluctuating” – which, when you study quantum mechanics, you’ll find that this “bubbling” is what Nature (at least in our universe) actually does!

[Footnote #2: Another hint about the Zen of Zero, Dear, can be derived from the difficulty of using familiar words to try to describe totally foreign concepts, such as “total nothingness” or “the original zero” or (hint, hint, “the Tao”, pronounced “Dao”). As (perhaps) Lao Tzu wrote (perhaps in about 600 BCE) in the book Tao Te Ching (“The Book of the Way and Virtue”): “The Tao that can be spoken of, is not the true Tao; the name that can be named, is not the true Name.”]

There is (or was), however, a critical proviso for these “bubblings” or “fluctuations” in the original “nothing”. Any fluctuation could occur (consistent with what I call not the “quantum mechanics” but a more general “zigblat mechanics” of zero) provided that, when “the total nothingness” fluctuated, sampling all “states” available to it, then always-but-always the total “positive” of anything created (such as energy, spin, charm, color, or whatever “quantum numbers” or “zigblat numbers” it “created”) was exactly balanced by corresponding “negatives”, in total summing exactly to zero, i.e., provided that always, in total, there was still totally nothing.

At least one of these fluctuations, however, apparently “broke the symmetry”, maybe permitting at least one “chunk” of positive energy to “condense” into a “particle” that “refused” to “rejoin” with its negative-energy counterpart. Once that happened, “all hell broke loose”, causing the Big Bang. That is, with the Big Bang, enormously more positive energy “solidified”, creating our universe, starting time, and so on.

Incidentally, Dear, as far as I can make sense of the data, our universe seems to be still exploding into the “total nothingness” that “exists” outside our universe. It may be, however, that “other verses” (multiverses!) have also created themselves “out there” in that “total nothingness”. But even if so, I don’t know of any reason why these “other verses” would be anything similar to ours, including even having the same “dimensions”. Other verses may even be “right here”, in different dimensions – in which case “here” would be a meaningless concept!

And though I wouldn’t be surprised if the patience of a certain grandchild is being “sorely tried”, I want to add a few comment about the importance of symmetry and about what symmetry might have been broken, leading to the Big Bang.

To begin to appreciate the importance of symmetry, Dear, first realize that any mass (such as a car) never “possesses” any absolute momentum or (kinetic) energy in the same way that it “possesses” a certain number of atoms. Thus, even though you may be driving along in a car at 50 mph relative to someone standing on the road, yet relative to your sitting in the car, its velocity, momentum, and kinetic energy are zero. Nonetheless, even in your “stationary car” you should take extreme care, because a barricade “sitting” on the road in front of you (relative to someone standing on the road) would have an enormous amount of momentum coming right at you! That is, Dear, bodies don’t “possess” any absolute velocity, momentum, or (kinetic) energy, only relative values of these “things”.

In fact, if stationary and moving observers are to agree that in any collision (e.g., between a car and a barricade) momentum and energy are always conserved, then according to a 1915 demonstration by a brilliant but relatively unknown scientist Emmy Noether (whose name rhymes with “mother”), it’s necessary that space and time have (or space-time has) “translational symmetry”, i.e., all descriptions of nature are independent of location and velocity of the observer. This “translational symmetry” is one of many “invariances” found in nature (and given such names as charge invariance, Lorentz invariance, and gauge invariance).

One symmetry that was expected but was found to be violated, however, is “parity”, the discovery of which led to the award of the 1956 Nobel prize in physics to Lee and Yang. It’s common to compare “parity” to left-handedness vs. right-handedness (which doesn’t seem to be symmetric in humans!), but actually, parity is related to the found-to-be-preferred direction along which a particular radioactive nucleus emits its decay products. All of which I mention solely to be able to say: perhaps the original symmetry that was broken was parity – which then would explain not only why the Big Bang occurred but also why you’re right handed!

But potentially to confuse you still further, let me say that I doubt that it was nonconservation of parity that was the original “symmetry breaking fluctuation” in the “original nothingness” that led to Big Bang. Instead, I’d have a tendency to put my money on the possibility that some “chunk” of positive energy (maybe the fundamental chunk of energy in string theory) “got hooked on itself”, or “tied in a knot”, or bound with some other chunk of positive energy (the original “homosexual bond”!) and was thereby unavailable to “mate” with it’s negative counterpart, which then broke the symmetry. And I make the suggestion that it was a “chunk” of positive energy that broke the symmetry solely from the result: look around you to see how much solidified positive energy (i.e., mass) now exists!

And if I’ve managed to totally confuse you with the above, Dear, then I would recommend that you just totally ignore it! On the other hand, if you are left with the general idea that your old grandfather suggests that the universe created itself from total nothingness, then that much will be quite adequate for now.

Footnote #3: And on the third hand (!), Dear, if after you earn your Ph.D. in physics and want to talk about the Big Bang being caused by a collision of a couple of the infinite number of (mem-)branes in eleven-dimensional space, then my first response would be “You talk; I’ll listen” and maybe my final response would be “Why don’t you tell me about the rest of it ‘when I’m older!’?”

But if you also picked up some idea that everything in the universe still sums to exactly zero, exactly as it did before the Big Bang, then so much the better. Then, maybe you won’t conclude (when your old grandfather suggests that there’s nothing here) that even he’s barely here – not to suggest that you won’t reach that same conclusion, but at least that you’ll base your assessment on different evidence!

Besides, Dear, if you’re beginning to think that your old grandfather has “really gone around the bend”, I’d point out to you that, subsequently, I’ve found myself to be in good company. For example, in his 1974 article entitled “Is the Universe a Vacuum Fluctuation”, which I found only recently but which was published in Nature in 1974 (vol. 248, pp. 396 -397), Edward P. Tryon (Department of Physics, City College of New York) demonstrated from available data that the total energy of our universe appears to be zero, “to within a factor of order unity”, depending on his assumption of the mass density in the universe.

In his paper, Tryon mentions that P. Bergmann earlier presented “a more sophisticated argument” that our universe must have exactly zero energy. Further, near the end of his paper, Tryon concludes the following [to which I’ve added the italics and some notes in “square brackets”, such as these!].

If it is true that our Universe has a zero net value for all conserved quantities [such as electrical charge, momentum, and total energy], then it [our Universe] may simply be a fluctuation of the vacuum [i.e., the original “zero” or “total nothingness”], the vacuum of some larger space [which stretches the meaning of the word “space”] in which our Universe is imbedded. In answer to the question of why it happened, I offer the modest proposal that our Universe is simply one of those things [that] happen from time to time.

Another example is the following quotation from p. 129 of the 1988 book A Brief History of Time by Stephen Hawking (who holds the same chair at Cambridge University that Newton held). In this quotation, I’ve again added the italics and some notes [in square brackets].

… that… raises the question of where the energy [in the universe] came from. The answer is that the total energy of the universe is exactly zero [although maybe Hawking should have written something similar to “seems to be exactly zero” or “theoretically must be exactly zero” or even “by the first principle of thermodynamics must remain zero, if initially zero”].

The matter in the universe is made out of positive energy. However, the matter is all attracting itself by gravity. Two pieces of matter that are close to each other have less energy than the same two pieces a long way apart, because you have to expend energy to separate them against the gravitational force that is pulling them together. Thus, in a sense, the gravitational field has negative energy. In the case of a universe that is approximately uniform in space, one can show that this negative gravitational energy exactly cancels the positive energy represented by the matter. [I assume that, with his use of the word “exactly”, Hawking is referring to Bergmann’s theory rather than Tryon’s calculation.] So the total energy of the universe is zero.

Now twice zero is also zero. Thus, the universe can double the amount of positive matter energy and also double the negative gravitational energy without violation of the conservation of energy… During the inflationary phase [of the early universe], the universe increases its size by a very large amount. Thus, the total amount of energy available to make particles becomes very large. As Guth has remarked, “It is said that there’s no such thing as a free lunch. But the universe is the ultimate free lunch.”
In the above quotation, the fellow that Hawking quotes, Alan Guth, is in the Physics Department at M.I.T. and is famous for his “Inflationary Theory” of the universe.

In fact, still another example is from a recent paper coauthored by Guth and published in a Special Section of Science entitled Einstein’s Legacy (on “the centennial of Albert Einstein’s most important year of scientific innovation”).

[I’ll omit the long quotation, which deals also with string theory.]

And if you could generally follow all the above, Dear (although it certainly isn’t necessary for purposes of this book!), then maybe there are a couple of other advantages for you.

For example, maybe you won’t be so surprised (as otherwise you might be) upon reading statement in news reports such as the following (from a Reuter news story by Jeremy Lovell dealing with the 2006 annual meeting of the British Association for the Advancement of Science and with the Large Hadron Collider to be opened in 2007 at CERN); in this report, the physicist Brian Cox of Manchester University is quoted as saying:

It could be that there is a whole new universe a millimeter away from our heads but at right-angles to the three dimensions that are here.

As another example, from the above you might gain another hint of my meaning for “the Zen of Zero” (namely, about the influence such thoughts can have on our experiencing life). In particular, there’s Einstein’s tremendous comment:

Once you can accept the universe as matter expanding into nothing that is something, [then] wearing stripes with plaid comes easy.

I’d even suggest that, if you can perceive that our universe might be nothing (which is now something) expanding into nothing (which is not yet something), then you’ll gain an entirely different outlook on life – which could be labeled as the Zen of Zero!
 
My ole prof. wouldn't revise his theory/understanding, and I have in fact fwd your fecund little manifesto to him! -- at the end of all those long winded additions and subtraction still lies a zero from which nothing can be produced or divided! you wrote it yourself there... energy can't be created nor destoryed..... yet energy needs to exist if you are to do something at all with it! Now, (if you personally understand something really well, you will not have a hard time explaining it to someone else!) you won't need this much volume of a cut and paste.. or even twisted semantics, so that I can drown in it Ad infinitum, while you feel slightly triumphant? admittedly I am not sure why..

If you know not just the anatomy but the physiology not the how but the why of the page to which you are referencing (cutting and pasting) then it will be very easy for you to explain its contents instead of hiding behind those big formulas...
Even big formulas don't need an "Einstein" to explain -- they in fact can be broken down to very simple terms and made use off in every day life..and should be used by the common man-- for instance I found a (le place's law) in that page PDF you have referenced me... I know how to make use of his formula in real life in medicinal terms, for (neonates with collapsed alevoli) I can actually explain it to someone, so that it doesn't just look good on paper!... contradictory to what you might believe that each should be confined to his/her area of expertise-- since somethings are just beyond our scope and comprehnsion, I believe that all the sciences intertwine...

So show me how this one fits into the non-existence of G-D-- and how a zero can propogate into two particles of opposite charges from which all supreme phenomenal happenings have taken place!

The text which you've pasted here though rich in characters and principles and at times even very poetic.... Still invariably doesn't explain how a nothing divided into two parts can equal to something!... If it did and I missed it.... then again I urge you to go ahead and prove it! and forgive me for I am a bit dense! I almost feel sorry for the little girl who was bedazzled by this text from which she is being shielded from the so-called fanatics only to be brain washed by bigger fanatics with pseudo-science and intellect!

peace......
 
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PurestAmbrosia:

My ole prof. wouldn't revise his theory/understanding, and I have in fact fwd your fecund little manifesto to him! -- at the end of all those long winded additions and subtraction still lies a zero from which nothing can be produced or divided! you wrote it yourself there... energy can't be created nor destoryed.....! Now, (if you personally understand something really well, you will not have a hard time explaining it to someone else!) you won't need this much volume of a cut and paste.. or even twisted semantics, so that I can drown in it Ad infinitum, while you feel slightly triumphant? admittedly I am not sure why..
I do not feel even slightly “triumphant”. Perhaps that’s why you’re “not sure why”. Also, does it not strike you as incongrous with your reprimands to me that you are contacting an "expert"?! I would add, further, that for your patients’ sake, I hope that your bedside manner is better than the manner in which you write: it seethes with sarcasm and pompousness.

In any event, brushing that aside once again, let me address your: “yet energy needs to exist if you are to do something at all with it.”

If (as you say) you desire to learn, then I recommend that you read the following, slowly.

Start with nothing, absolutely zero, zip: no energy, no nothing.

Got it?

Now, split that "nothing" into various positive and negative “things”, such as electrical charge, components of momentum, and energy.

Stop now. Think about it. Positive vs. negative energy.

“What,” you probably ask, “is negative energy?”

Answer: consider what we call “space” or “the vacuum”. It’s filled to the brim with negative energy.

Now, read what I already posted, again – and this time, for a change, THINK.

And as for your:
I almost feel sorry for the little girl who was bedazzled by this text from which she is being shielded from the so-called fanatics only to be brain washed by bigger fanatics with pseudo-science and intellect!

When it comes to my grandchildren, I strongly advise you to butt out.
 
PurestAmbrosia:


I do not feel even slightly “triumphant”. Perhaps that’s why you’re “not sure why”. Also, does it not strike you as incongrous with your reprimands to me that you are contacting an "expert"?! I would add, further, that for your patients’ sake, I hope that your bedside manner is better than the manner in which you write: it seethes with sarcasm and pompousness..

was something in the way of a "smile" on your face after the "proof" which I was to present to a mentor. I do apologize if you feel that I am brimming with sarcasm and pompousness! in my defense that is in essence the same sensation I get from the Atheists on this forum! me contacting an expert was nothing more than me bewildered at something I was obviously not taught conventionally in the class room... as in not the readily accepted theory!

In any event, brushing that aside once again, let me address your: “yet energy needs to exist if you are to do something at all with it.”

If (as you say) you desire to learn, then I recommend that you read the following, slowly.

Start with nothing, absolutely zero, zip: no energy, no nothing.

Got it?.

Yes!

Now, split that "nothing" into various positive and negative “things”, such as electrical charge, components of momentum, and energy.

Stop now. Think about it. Positive vs. negative energy.

“What,” you probably ask, “is negative energy?”

Answer: consider what we call “space” or “the vacuum”. It’s filled to the brim with negative energy.

Now, read what I already posted, again – and this time, for a change, THINK..

Yes! wish I could spilt the nothing... even after much thought--- but it borders upon a fantasy the (never ending story) type-- than an actual cold visceral reality... in a sense non-reproducible!... Again poetic physics!-- I can deal with the positive and the negative energy but not the splitting of a zero..... it is nonsensical! .. probably as much nonsense as the concept of G-D is to you! so you see when it comes down to it-- a little magical exercise is needed to accept either hypothesis.
Sort of like the schizophrenic who exhibits positive signs and the one who exhibits negative signs... at the very core you are still a schizophrenic then you add or subtract symptoms! The religious type the (positive sort) the atheist type (the negative sort) -- I hope you'll forgive the analogy.....


And as for your:


When it comes to my grandchildren, I strongly advise you to butt out.
with pleasure sir :)

peace!
 
Yes! wish I could spilt the nothing... even after much thought--- but it borders upon a fantasy the (never ending story) type-- than an actual cold visceral reality... in a sense non-reproducible!... Again poetic physics!-- I can deal with the positive and the negative energy but not the splitting of a zero..... it is nonsensical

Astounding!

Okay, see if this will get through your.... [I'll skip that].

Comb your hair [assuming you have some].

Now, see if your comb is charged enough to pick up a small piece of paper.

Amazing, huh?

Something created from nothing, by splitting "nothing" into positive and negative components.

DUH.

Now, read the posted part of the chapter -- and for a change, THINK!
 
Astounding!

Okay, see if this will get through your.... [I'll skip that].

Comb your hair [assuming you have some].

Now, see if your comb is charged enough to pick up a small piece of paper.

Amazing, huh?

Something created from nothing, by splitting "nothing" into positive and negative components.

DUH.

Now, read the posted part of the chapter -- and for a change, THINK!

You don't have to lose your manners to make a point!
In very primitive child like terms that we can all understand (physics 101)-- in order for you to create that "static electricity" or charge you need something not nothing!.. in combing my hair I am passing electrons from my hair to the comb.. that isn't a creation of something from nothing (gasp)... that is transferance of electrons from hair to comb!....... tiny particles that though we can't see still exist!
peace!
 
Okay, and if you apparently won't consider carefully what I wrote, then (again) carefully consider what Steven Hawking wrote in his book (referenced earlier):

… that… raises the question of where the energy [in the universe] came from. The answer is that the total energy of the universe is exactly zero.

The matter in the universe is made out of positive energy. However, the matter is all attracting itself by gravity. Two pieces of matter that are close to each other have less energy than the same two pieces a long way apart, because you have to expend energy to separate them against the gravitational force that is pulling them together. Thus, in a sense, the gravitational field has negative energy. In the case of a universe that is approximately uniform in space, one can show that this negative gravitational energy exactly cancels the positive energy represented by the matter. So the total energy of the universe is zero.

Now twice zero is also zero. Thus, the universe can double the amount of positive matter energy and also double the negative gravitational energy without violation of the conservation of energy… During the inflationary phase [of the early universe], the universe increases its size by a very large amount. Thus, the total amount of energy available to make particles becomes very large. As Guth has remarked, “It is said that there’s no such thing as a free lunch. But the universe is the ultimate free lunch.”
Now, carefully consider (again) what Tryon published in Nature (referenced earlier):

If it is true that our Universe has a zero net value for all conserved quantities, then it may simply be a fluctuation of the vacuum, the vacuum of some larger space in which our Universe is imbedded. In answer to the question of why it happened, I offer the modest proposal that our Universe is simply one of those things [that] happen from time to time.

And since, now, you apparently approve of listening to "experts", listen (again) to what Einstein said:

Once you can accept the universe as matter expanding into nothing that is something, [then] wearing stripes with plaid comes easy.

And as for my manners: You, sir, would try the patience of Job.
 
Okay, and if you apparently won't consider carefully what I wrote, then (again) carefully consider what Steven Hawking wrote in his book (referenced earlier):


Now, carefully consider (again) what Tryon published in Nature (referenced earlier):



And since, now, you apparently approve of listening to "experts", listen (again) to what Einstein said:



And as for my manners: You, sir, would try the patience of Job.

For starters I am a lady!-- …Now--firstly you don't offer an explanation as to where this "energy" came from-- I can accept that it can't be created nor destroyed... but I need you to account for its existence and where from! Energy doesn't mean nothing nor does it mean a zero... by definition it is a fundamental entity, and entities don't come from zero!... yes it is all great about the rest-- positive energy (universe)... negative energy (gravity) both nullifying each other thus equaling to zero--- again, doesn't offer an explanation as to how two forces that cancel each other out, create something from the nothing! or even remotely offer an explanation to a zero dividing into two particles of opposite charges that expands into more nothing to create something seemingly phenomenal... & Sure I can accept that matter expands into the universe... but matter by definition is some sort of material again couldn't have come from a zero any more than energy did! honestly if that can be duplicated in a vacuum all the way to the amazing form that we are in today we wouldn't be sitting here writing about this crap-- lastly none of this impressive lists of names offers an explanation to most simple to the most complex questions which I posted earlier today! ... ... We both offer "theories" and I rather like the one I follow... it is more satisfactory to me on multiple levels!-- and if it drives your patience-- what can I say? Free thought never hurt anyone in fact has been shown to keeps Alzheimer's at bay!-- besides what business have you with (JOB)? they are all stories of yore and have no room in that zenzero world of yours!
peace!
 
PurestAmbrosia:

Now--firstly you don't offer an explanation as to where this "energy" came from-- I can accept that it can't be created nor destroyed... but I need you to account for its existence and where from!

To "account for it", it's required that you think.

Try it. Start with absolutely nothing. That, I agree, is a totally foreign concept. We have no experience with it. But imagine it. It’s expected to be what’s “outside” our universe (recall Einstein's quote), and I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s what’s “inside” Black Holes.

Now, suppose that, in such “total nothingness”, a fluctuation occurs – with always, in total, nothing present. The fluctuation can be of anything, generating any paired set of quantum variables ("paired" in the sense of both "positive" and "negative" components) of "quantities" such as spin, charge, charm, color… or energy.

In particular, imagine a fluctuation that consists of a small amount of positive energy plus an equal small amount of negative energy. In total: nothing. Then, imagine that the fluctuation vanishes. Still nothing.

Quantum mechanics shows that such fluctuations, creating “virtual particles" (particles and their anti-particles, i.e., positive and negative energy) go on continuously.

Now, though, suppose that the positive-energy side of the fluctuation “precipitates” (in the form of a “string of energy” or an elementary particle) and thereby is unavailable to mate with its negative partner. The marriage is broken, irreversibly.

That causes major problems: when the original, balanced fluctuation can’t disappear (because the “positive side” of energy formed a precipitate), the result cascades, leading to the Big Bang. Read Hawking's quote again.

And that’s Tryon's point.

If it is true that our Universe has a zero net value for all conserved quantities [and that seems to be correct], then it [the universe] may simply be a fluctuation of the vacuum, the vacuum of some larger space in which our Universe is imbedded. In answer to the question of why it happened, I offer the modest proposal that our Universe is simply one of those things [that] happen from time to time.

And in response to your:

Energy doesn't mean nothing nor does it mean a zero... by definition it is a fundamental entity, and entities don't come from zero

I think that the only reasonable thing for me to do is shake my head in sadness, try to shake the sadness off, and go to bed.
 
The problem isn't in how many times you hammer it in...fact is if you gave what you wrote some "thought" as you like to readily prescribe you'd see how so very flawed your argument is to the core! it isn't a concept with which we have no experience and requires some abstract thought, it is in fact a conjecture! If it weren't you wouldn't need all these seemingly circular arguments-- You'll have an easier time selling fava bean to a person suffering from G6PD deficiency than you will the above! frankly I'll have to concur with your need to go to bed... maybe the random firing of your neurons at night will make you see things more clearly... and if not...(ne sois pas triste!).... the sadness and the going to bed will nullify each other out and equal to zero emotion. I really hope this is the last of it--- I detest Jadal (vain discourse) and this is the very definition of it--
peace !
 
purestambrosia:

Sleep suggested another way that you might see it. The question that I’d have you consider is: What’s here? What is this universe?

The obvious response to that question is that an enormous amount is “here” – but is that so?

You stated that you took first-year physics, so I trust that you saw the first principle of electrostatics (the conservation of electrical charge): electrical charge can never be created or destroyed. So, if that’s the case for the entire universe, then the total electrical charge in the universe (summing over both positive and negative charges) is exactly zero.

Now consider momentum. In your physics course, I trust you saw that momentum is always conserved in a closed system. The universe is such a system. Therefore, if the principle is valid for the entire universe and if there was no momentum before the Big Bang, then the total momentum in the universe must still be zero.

You might have also seen that similar is true also for angular momentum. So, in this universe, the total linear and angular momentum (or spin) must sum to exactly zero.

Now, consider energy. In your physics course, I trust that you also saw the first “law” of thermodynamics: energy can be neither created nor destroyed. Therefore, in total, counting all mass to be its equivalent “positive energy” (via E = mc^2) and accounting for all the negative energy of “space”, the total energy of the universe is zero.

So now, again: in this universe, what’s here? Answer: nothing! No electric charge, no momentum, no energy, no “whatever else that’s conserved”.

Consequently, if (as seems to be the case) that, in total, there’s nothing “here”, then the next obvious questions are: How was this universe created and why do we perceive this “nothing” as “something”?

Such questions lead to the suggestions that I tried to show you yesterday: that the original “total nothingness” was split into positive and negative components (by, it’s assumed, some symmetry-breaking fluctuation in the “original total void”, leading to the Big Bang), and now, here we are, living on and in the “positive side of existence” (especially as the “positive side of energy”, which we call mass), while all about us is the “negative side” (especially the “negative side of energy”, which we call “space” or “the vacuum”).

[And by the way: if you object (or if anyone objects, including your physics prof) that the universe does seem to have some positive entropy, then before writing on that topic, please go to that Advanced Physics thread that I referenced in an earlier post (the thread is labeled “The Tao of Physics and the Zen of Zero”) – and I would recommend that you contribute there, instead of here, since more knowledgeable responses will more likely appear. Further, before contributing there, please read the paper that I referenced, there, about time going in the opposite direction in negative-energy space (which seems to resolve some quantum mechanical dilemmas) and carefully consider how to define entropy of space if, in it, time goes in the opposite direction. As you can see there, I’ve made (extremely tentative!) suggestions about how the entropy of space might be defined so that, as positive entropy increase “on our side of reality” (in accordance with the second principle of thermo), the entropy of space would become increasingly negative, as the universe expands – thereby tentatively suggesting that the total entropy of the universe is also zero.]
 
You know what the problem really is... and if you search in your posts you'll pick the words right up
1- (If you can accept)
2-(If we can get you to believe)
3-(Now suppose)
4-if you'd listen to the "Experts"..
5(such laws seem to suggest)
and then you resort to some temper tantrums of "Duh" and the clue here is to "think"

This has absolutely nothing to do with the laws of physics that we readily know and learn in basic courses-- this has nothing to do with energy, or momentum, or torque or or or... this has to do with a flaw at the very core from which all else sprang forth....... you can tweak it... you can add extra dressing-- you can make it sound intelligent... but it isn't-- it is still poetic physics... even if I were to "accept" the ludicrous claim of a zero dividing--- even if it were to miraculously happen using your ill-conceived example of hair and comb of which we explained in simple terms exactly what has happened in terms of passing charges already in existence!.. it would still end (at just that)-- two charges of opposite polarity! not a complex organ system, not different life forms, not a differentiation into shapes not a universe --not a periodic table of elements, not millions of bacteria, not 19 types of collagen, not well thought out systems doing exactly their perspective job to keep it all running.... There is thought here! an intelligent thought! that you cannot duplicate or prove with a zero dividing.......'tis true as in the noble book-- those who appreciate the magistrate of G-D are ones who possess knowledge (the scientists who can see the big picture) not the quasi intellects!
وَمِ
نَ النَّاسِ وَالدَّوَابِّ وَالْأَنْعَامِ مُخْتَلِفٌ أَلْوَانُهُ كَذَلِكَ إِنَّمَا يَخْشَى اللَّهَ مِنْ عِبَادِهِ الْعُلَمَاء إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَزِيزٌ غَفُورٌ {28}

[35:28] And of men and beasts and cattle are various species of it likewise; those of His servants only who are possessed of knowledge fear Allah; surely Allah is Mighty, Forgiving.!...

Your zenzero seems like a fantastic sci-fi thriller... and you can get a teenager to get all excited about it. I am sure it meets with the approval of some of your buddies in atheism!... you can try some character assassination of my fund of knowledge in physics or lack thereof... I think it is beneath me at this point to go through my resume... I won't get into your head and make assumptions of what it is you conceive to be a Muslim woman-- but I didn't get this far by accepting things at face value!.. I certainly didn't become Muslim having been born to Muslim parents... I gave this the bulk of my years, my thoughts, my being! and a zero dividing ain't gonna change that!...

If I am going to readily believe something it will be in the magistrate of the lord of the Heavens and the Earth-- and you can keep and perpetuate you sci-fi thriller.. and it is what it is-- a fantastic theory..... and this is really all the time I intend to dedicate to it-- at this point the time has come for us to move on!

peace!
 
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