Friendly fire' killing unlawful

[mahdisoldier19]

I think another issue is the lack of coordination between the two nations when they are in a warzone. Usually we hack the warzone in two and say "We kill things on this side, you kill things on that side". Of course soldiers end up in areas they aren't supposed to be in, and that leads to confusion. I don't know why there seems to be so many friendly fire incidents involving U.S. aircraft and British patrols, but my bet would be lack of coordination between ground forces and the air force.

Exactly

 

[wilberhum]

My dad served in the British army. He was in the Light Infantry 2nd Battalion station in Larkhill, Wiltshire, fought in Northern Ireland, trained in the Falklands, Germany, and more places. He has trained with U.S troops during his time, late 70s until the early 90s. He talks to me about it all the time.

Anyone want pictures?

I'm sure not much has changed in training over the last 15 - 20 years. :? :?

 

[England]

I'm sure not much has changed in training over the last 15 - 20 years. :? :?

No not alot has. Everything's the same. The only things that have changed is the equipment. He's signed up to a Light Infantry forum which he's been on a few times to see what his batallion is like now and it's all the same. Although his regiment has merged up with other regiments and its name has now reverted to "The rifles" which was what they were called to start with. The Wiltshire regiment still follows its traditions of fast pace and fast marching. Everything remains the same and they're doing a great job in Iraq.

Correction. It was the 1st Batallion regiment and not the 2nd.

 

[Agnostic]

I have never been in a fighter jet screaming in at 400 to 500 MPH I wonder how easy it is to identify a target at that speed. I know Woodrow was a pilot in Vietnam perhaps he could give us a pilots perspective.

 

[England]

I have never been in a fighter jet screaming in at 400 to 500 MPH I wonder how easy it is to identify a target at that speed. I know Woodrow was a pilot in Vietnam perhaps he could give us a pilots perspective.

Watch the video and take a look at how easy it is... :rollseyes

 

[Agnostic]

Watch the video and take a look at how easy it is... :rollseyes

I did, all I see is a blurry road I cant even see the vehicles.:blind:

 

[England]

I did, all I see is a blurry road I cant even see the vehicles.:blind:

View it full screen. They were able to describe the vehicles.... :rollseyes

If they're not sure then they're not supposed to fire. They gave the wrong location out too and attacked before given the go ahead...

yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeehaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

 

[Agnostic]

I would still like Woodrow's view on it.

 

[Woodrow]

I have never been in a fighter jet screaming in at 400 to 500 MPH I wonder how easy it is to identify a target at that speed. I know Woodrow was a pilot in Vietnam perhaps he could give us a pilots perspective.

You count on having all of the information in advance. You come in with the knowledge of where your target is supposed to be. Your appraoch depends on what your payload is. If it is a straffing run and you are going to be using guns you get your first visual view when you are about 20 miles (3 minutes) from the target, at that point it looks like a black pin dot, then you descend so that by the time you reach the target you are about 1000 feet off the ground. You then get your first actual clear visual and have perhaps 1/10 of a second in that visual contact to identify the target and decide to press the button or abort. It is a one shot deal. If you miss the target at that point and they are hostiles they are going to start shooting as soon as you begin to start to climb and you can not turn to return fire. Lots of thoughts go through your mind in that brief moment of visual contact. You depend very heavily on what your preflight info was and any updates that come from the ground as you approach your target. You are really much to busy trying to fly the bird than to be a sightseer. The view from the cockpit is a very blurry tiny view of the world.

Air to air combat is much more comfortable. You immediatly know who the hostile is, he is the guy shooting at you.

 

[Agnostic]

Thanks Woodrow, I kinda thought it was much harder than your average video game

 

[Woodrow]

Thanks Woodrow, I kinda thought it was much harder than your average video game

there is one aspect that the video games do not show and can not be simulated. It is the realization that that somebody is going to die a small error means death for you or the death of an innocent person and there is no reset button.

There really is very little visual contact with the world from the cockpit. Most of your life is spent looking at the Instrument panel. Most of what you are doing is interpreting little lights.

From a fighter plane it is a rare opportunity to actually make visual contact with your target. And when you are close enough to see it is clear only for a fraction of a second.

There is never any opportunity for a second chance or for guesses. You know that within the next second you will either die or have to live with your choice. You hope you make the right choice.

You also have the knowledge that the info you are given is telling you that it is a hostile you see and it is a legitimate target. In that brief second it is hard to determine that you were given erroneous information.

In this game of life it is a question of who shoots first.



An analogy would be have you ever been driving down the road at dusk and suddenly a child darts in front of you. You swerve and slam on your brakes. Get out shaken up and discover the "child" was a piece of paper the wind had blown.

The same thing happens to a pilot, except in that moment what he sees is a hostile that is fixing to shoot at him. Sadly sometimes it turns out to be an innocent person.

 

[Woodrow]

apparently alcoholism is widespread among the soldiers, as is mental illness. this could explain a lot of these "friendly fire" incidents.

There is much validity in that statement. But, much of it comes after the fact and not during combat. Some of our Vietnam era soldiers are now alcoholics and/or drug addicts. But, for most of them this came after the war and not during the time of combat.

The "friendly fire" incidents are most often the result of erroneous information. True there are human errors that contribute to some and misinformation. But, it will be very rare that it can be attributed to drug/alcohol abuse or mental illness.

The sad fact of reality is war is not fought within the terms of fair play. A target will often not look like what it really is. You have to remember, the target is going to do it's best to look like anything except the target. It is hard to determine in that brief second if what you see is actually your own people or if it is the other guy, trying to look like your own people.


Like all things I would say that unless a person was actually there at the time an error takes place, they can not know why the error took place.

In driving a car when you make a brief error you might get a traffic ticket. In the reality of combat a small error results in death for somebody.

None of the US military basis in the Mideast allow alcohol. sadly tho a persistent GI will find a local source. There are bootleggers in every country. However, alcoholism and drug abuse does not seem to be a major problem among GIs in the Mideast. When it does occur it does become a major incident.

Ironicaly, we probably have more American soldiers stationed here in Texas, then what are deployed in the entire middle east. Yet, we have no problems with maniacs running around killing innocent civilians.

At the moment we have

* Army 60,945
* Navy & Marine Corps 6,909
* Air Force 40,981
* Coast Guard 1,409
* Active Duty Military 108,835
* Reserve and National Guard 84,721
* Total Personnel 194,965

source: http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/statefacts/bltx.htm

Stationed here in Texas. These are the very same type of people that are serving in Iraq. Yet, we do not fear them and they are not homicidal maniacs or drug addicts wandering the streets.

If I recall correctly you are in California. I believe California has even more US military forces there then we have in Texas. Yet, You have no need to fear that there are drug addicts and killers wandering the streets of California. These are the very same type of people that are being sent to Iraq, Afghanistan etc.

EDIT ADDED:

California does have more military troops assigned there then we have in Texas.

* Army 7,697
* Navy & Marine Corps 80,572
* Air Force 21,428
* Coast Guard 4,811
* Active Duty Military 109,697
* Reserve and National Guard 98,292
* Total Personnel 212,800

Source: http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/statefacts/blca.htm

But it does not seem that US GIs in Californis are going around raping, killing etc. These are still the very same type of GIs that are being deployed to the Mideast.

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

ERROR ONE came when they asked the Forward Air Controller, call sign Manila Hotel, if friendly forces were around the Iraqi vehicles — not to the west.

Error dispute:
------------------------------------------------------
POPOV36: Hey, I got a four ship. Looks like we got orange panels on them though. Do we have any friendlies up in this area?

MANILA HOTEL: I understand that was north 800 meters?

POPOV35: Affirm, North 800 meters. Confirm there are no friendlies this far north on the ground?

MANILA HOTEL: That is an affirm. You are well clear of friendlies. Copy.

POPOV35: Describes types of vehicles to Manila hotel.

My commentary: They did report the orange panels, location was being monitored at this point in time.

POPOV36: I've got a four ship of vehicles that are evenly spaced along a road going north. Look down at your right 2:00, eh, 10:00 low - there is a... left 10:00 low... look down there north along the canal, right there. Coming up just south of the village.

My commentary: POPOV36 was speaking to POPOV35, who had circled back in order to maintain visual contact.

POPOV35: Evenly spaced... where we just strafed (fired previously)?

POPOV36: No. No. Further East, further West, right now! And there's four or five of them right now heading up there.

My commentary: POPOV 35 had circled back again, so East became west and POPOV36 made the adjustment for the other pilot at that time.

POPOV35: No, I don't have you visual (can't see the other pilot named POPOV36).

POPOV36: I'm back at your 6 - no factor.

POPOV35: OK, now where's this canal? Don't hit those F18s that are out there (just identified other aircraft in the area).

POPOV36: Ok, right underneath you. Right now, there's a canal that runs north/south. There's a small village and there are vehicles that are spaced evenly there. They look like they have orange panel on though.

My commentary: One comes to understand there were other aircraft to watch out for as well but despite all this, the pilot (popov36) noted the orange panels for a second time.

POPOV35: He (Manila Hotel) told me there's nobody north of here... no friendlies.

POPOV36: I know. There (the targets), right on the river.

POPOV35: I see vehicles though, might be our original dudes.

POPOV36: They've got something orange on top of them. (third comment on markings).

POPOV35: To Manila Hotel... Is Manila 34 in this area? (repeats request again)

MANILA HOTEL: Negative. Understand they are well clear of that now.

POPOV35: (to MANILA HOTEL) OK, like I said, multiple riveted vehicles. They look like flatbed trucks. Are those your targets?

MANILA HOTEL: That's affirm.
------------------------------------------------------
Summary OK. They (friendlies) were not "well clear of that (location) now (then)". It is for this reason, and the commentary from MANILA HOTEL (I've got other aircraft working this push. Not sure they're coming to me (reporting to me). Someone else might be working this freak.) that lead me to believe the pilots were not at fault. After receiving word that there were no friendlies after three inquiries about the orange panels, I would convince myself they were something else too.

Guilt would then fall on MANILA HOTEL who were monitoring the mission, unless it could be proven someone was indeed working the area freak, and failed to report their mission.

Ninth Scribe