A Message To The Non-Muslims.

[جوري]

Greetings,


Sorry, I couldn't make head or tail of that.

Naturally.....

What you've mentioned are a mathematical and a biological concept respectively. I don't know why you call them logical concepts.

what is illogical about them?

I take your point. Atheism is a belief, and hasn't been proven with logic. Agnosticism is more logically rigorous, in that it sees no evidence to support the existence of god and so takes a neutral position. I believe atheism is true largely because I think it is far more likely that god was invented by humans than that he actually exists.

Peace

Good for you!

Peace....

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

what is illogical about them?

I'm not calling them illogical, I'm just unsure as to why you call them 'logical concepts' when they are from disciplines other than logic.

If you're talking about ideas that make sense or can be logically justified that some people haven't grasped or aren't aware of, then fine - of course the people's ignorance does nothing to invalidate the truth of these cocnepts. But that's surely different from the god-concept, which atheists are very much aware of and have often thought about deeply.

Peace

 

[جوري]

Greetings,


I'm not calling them illogical, I'm just unsure as to why you call them 'logical concepts' when they are from disciplines other than logic.

If you're talking about ideas that make sense or can be logically justified that some people haven't grasped or aren't aware of, then fine - of course the people's ignorance does nothing to invalidate the truth of these cocnepts. But that's surely different from the god-concept, which atheists are very much aware of and have often thought about deeply.

Peace

one of the definitions of logic as per Merriam Webster

Main Entry: log·i·cal
Pronunciation: 'lä-ji-k&l
Function: adjective
1 a (1) : of, relating to, involving, or being in accordance with logic (2) : skilled in logic b : formally true or valid

So yes meant as (true or valid)! And yes many a sane, reflective persons can't accept or comprehend true and or valid concepts in regular fields, which others use in practice everyday!... Someone might arrive to the existence of G-D just through reflections of the mathematical impossibility of this world being a mere chance!

The probabilities of millions of positive coincidences is beyond anything they have learned in the fields of statistics, mathematics and probability leads them to conclude this universe wasn't a random mistake-- someone else in medicine might not understand who drives the aorticopulmonary septum to rotate a good 90 degrees to prevent transposition of the great vessels or why we have several pace makers in the heart to prevent it from going into arrest should one of them mal-function... or why the cardiac muscle is the only muscle in the body to not be affected by tetany.. or why even under hypovolemic shock the brain isn't affected until there is truly massive bleeding, as most of the blood gets shunted from the rest of the body to maintain brain function. It is logical-- an intelligent event that isn't haphazard is occuring and continues to occur--every day around the globe!

All of these natural perfect events happen on their own volition.... We know why it happens physiologically and even what it prevents-- what the outcome will be should it not happen exactly as described --but don't know what drove these events to to occur as such-- to proper function--by whom? .... these are a few and I mean very few examples of things that go right every day that you might not even think about.. some take for granted call it by some other name (mother nature) etc etc..

So frankly... it is perfectly logical for us to understand why there is a creator even by default if you will. It is too phenomenal to be the work of chance. One might later look to philosophy or religion to enhance or cement their conclusions.......this might not be easily digested by your person, because your brain works on a different plane... not as an insult to your ability to comprehend basic concepts in mathematics or medicine or other fields that might lead to the same conclusions--- as it comes easily to someone else-- it just makes perfect sense to them and not to you... So you telling someone--

"A logical argument will convince any rational person, no matter what their prior beliefs, as long as its premises are accepted".

I'd have to beg to differ--not everyone understands all that is logical as long as its premises are accepted!... besides that some concepts and premises are not even formally taught as a part of regular curriculum. All fields have a potential to branch into theology and philosophy... but that isn't what people pay or expect when they sign up for a class! ... its branches are outside of academia, on the basis that religion is ultimately a personal choice and not a coercion!..
And peace to you!

 

[Grace Seeker]

I take your point. Atheism is a belief, and hasn't been proven with logic. Agnosticism is more logically rigorous, in that it sees no evidence to support the existence of god and so takes a neutral position. I believe atheism is true largely because I think it is far more likely that god was invented by humans than that he actually exists.

Peace

Again, that is 100% a statement of theological belief (or disbelief in this case) and suffers from all the same problems that you apply to beliefs in God-- i.e. it itself is not a logical conclusion, the source of your conclusion lies within your own personal conception of what reality is or isn't.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

The probabilities of millions of positive coincidences is beyond anything they have learned in the fields of statistics, mathematics and probability leads them to conclude this universe wasn't a random mistake-- someone else in medicine might not understand who drives the aorticopulmonary septum to rotate a good 90 degrees to prevent transposition of the great vessels or why we have several pace makers in the heart to prevent it from going into arrest should one of them mal-function... or why the cardiac muscle is the only muscle in the body to not be affected by tetany.. or why even under hypovolemic shock the brain isn't affected until there is truly massive bleeding, as most of the blood gets shunted from the rest of the body to maintain brain function. It is logical-- an intelligent event that isn't haphazard is occuring and continues to occur--every day around the globe!

Thank you for giving the argument from design once again. Either this convinces a person or it doesn't, and we happen to be on opposite sides of that particular fence.

So frankly... it is perfectly logical for us to understand why there is a creator even by default if you will. It is too phenomenal to be the work of chance.

Who mentioned chance?

I'd have to beg to differ--not everyone understands all that is logical as long as its premises are accepted!...

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. If you're simply saying 'there are some things which are logically justifiable that not everyone understands', then fine, that is not a controversial statement. All I'm trying to do is to show that 'logic' is called upon by some theists to support their argument, and that if this was truly so then their argument would convince non-believers; as it is, that is not the case, so their arguments cannot be purely logical.

besides that some concepts and premises are not even formally taught as a part of regular curriculum.

Just to be clear - can you give examples of what you're talking about here?

All fields have a potential to branch into theology and philosophy... but that isn't what people pay or expect when they sign up for a class! ...

I'm not sure what point you're making here either, I'm afraid.

its branches are outside of academia, on the basis that religion is ultimately a personal choice and not a coercion!..

That's absolutely the way it should be.

Again, that is 100% a statement of theological belief (or disbelief in this case) and suffers from all the same problems that you apply to beliefs in God-- i.e. it itself is not a logical conclusion, the source of your conclusion lies within your own personal conception of what reality is or isn't.

I agree completely. Perhaps I haven't been making myself clear - if so, please forgive my ineptitude.

I am an atheist. Although I place a high value on logic, I don't think that atheism is logically rigorous, and I don't think there is any proof that atheism is true. It is simply my belief, just as religious people have their beliefs.

I think that since there is no evidence for the existence of god that comes up to the level of evidence we have for, say, the existence of trees, dreams, music or thought, it is reasonable to doubt his existence. According to the scientific method, that would be a rational position. Beyond this is mere belief, and that is where atheism is situated.

Although adherence to athiesm simply seems intuitively obvious to me, I don't want to pretend it's a view based entirely on rigorous logic. I do object, though, to religious opinions that claim to be 'clear', 'logical', 'rational' or to possess 'proof' of their assumptions where there is none, and that is why I responded negatively to a claim of 'logic' earlier on in this thread.

Peace

 

[جوري]

Greetings,


Thank you for giving the argument from design once again. Either this convinces a person or it doesn't, and we happen to be on opposite sides of that particular fence.

What would you like to work with?

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. If you're simply saying 'there are some things which are logically justifiable that not everyone understands', then fine, that is not a controversial statement. All I'm trying to do is to show that 'logic' is called upon by some theists to support their argument, and that if this was truly so then their argument would convince non-believers; as it is, that is not the case, so their arguments cannot be purely logical.

we are in agreement with first part of that statement--

Just to be clear - can you give examples of what you're talking about here?

I have tired of giving you examples...

I'm not sure what point you're making here either, I'm afraid.

It isn't really the abstract work of Rothko... I am not sure what is so difficult for you to comprehend?

peace!

 

[Muslim Woman]

I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

With the name of ALLAH (swt) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful


Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)

&&

....
just the thoughts of this kafir.

----suggesstions pl. from Kafir ........errrrrrrr......many people believe it's a bad word. I heard of Dr. Zakir Naik ....it's the word for those who don't believe in One God & the Last Prophet (p) ...just as the words like non-Jew , non- Hindu etc.

I want to know if non-Muslims feel more comfortable with the word God instead of Allah ? I read in a revert story that even after embracing Islam , the bro was more comfortable with the word God .

If non-Muslims feel more comfortable with God , then while telling them about Islam , should Muslims use God instead of Allah ? So that they can feel that it's the same God & not some strange diety etc.


[BANANA] i'm still safe - i only read the first paragraph![/BANANA]



---hahaha , so u think , ignorance is bliss ?

 

[Muezzin]

----suggesstions pl. from Kafir ........errrrrrrr......many people believe it's a bad word. I heard of Dr. Zakir Naik ....it's the word for those who don't believe in One God & the Last Prophet (p) ...just as the words like non-Jew , non- Hindu etc.

The reason it has negative connotations right now is because certain Muslims publically spit the word like venom. I just say 'non-Muslim' and if people ask what 'Kafir' means, I tell them. It's a lot like the word 'Gentile' come to think of it.

I want to know if non-Muslims feel more comfortable with the word God instead of Allah ? I read in a revert story that even after embracing Islam , the bro was more comfortable with the word God .

If non-Muslims feel more comfortable with God , then while telling them about Islam , should Muslims use God instead of Allah ? So that they can feel that it's the same God & not some strange diety etc.

'Allah' is simply the Arabic word for 'God', so whatever people are comfortable with should be okay. Allah/God will know what they mean anyhow

 

[snakelegs]

----suggesstions pl. from Kafir ........errrrrrrr......many people believe it's a bad word. I heard of Dr. Zakir Naik ....it's the word for those who don't believe in One God & the Last Prophet (p) ...just as the words like non-Jew , non- Hindu etc.

i don't know how typical i am for a non-muslim, but i have no problem with "kaffir" - like muezzin pointed out - it's just like "gentile" (goy). some people do find it offensive though, so it's best to use the more neutral term non-muslim.

I want to know if non-Muslims feel more comfortable with the word God instead of Allah ? I read in a revert story that even after embracing Islam , the bro was more comfortable with the word God .

If non-Muslims feel more comfortable with God , then while telling them about Islam , should Muslims use God instead of Allah ? So that they can feel that it's the same God & not some strange diety etc.

i'm fine with allah. i'm not likely to use it myself, because it would feel unnatural, or phony. i do know that some non-muslims think allah is a different god.

---hahaha , so u think , ignorance is bliss ?

who knows? seriously, i do not like the use of fear or threat, as in the first post on this thread. when i read that, i read no further.

 

[جوري]

contrary to popular opinion... I believe the after life is more about justice than it is of reward and punishment... but I'll go no further than that as I covered what that in some details on different threads-- and I have a more pressing things to do at the moment .........:-[ :-[ :-[

 

[MustafaMc]

If non-Muslims feel more comfortable with God , then while telling them about Islam , should Muslims use God instead of Allah ? So that they can feel that it's the same God & not some strange diety etc.

I sometimes use God in my discussions, but, if I don't use Allah, I try to preface it with "The One..." or otherwise qualify what I mean. The Christian concept of God is so intertwined with the Trinity - Father, Son (Jesus) and "the Holy Spirit" that I am inclined to not leave it open ended and vague.

 

[Grace Seeker]

If non-Muslims feel more comfortable with God , then while telling them about Islam , should Muslims use God instead of Allah ? So that they can feel that it's the same God & not some strange diety etc.

I think one should always speak with one's audience in mind.

If you feel that Allah is the same God that others would mean by the term God and that they might mistakenly think that Allah is some other god. Then, unless it is actually offensive, I would recommend using the term God to speak of God.

 

[جوري]

but what is the god that the audience speaks of? the porcelain god? the river god...some Indian gods? a forest god? some female goddess?

Allah is distinguished... can't be turned plural, can't be turned into the feminine as can be done in English... and is the way it first appeared in Semitic tongue...
If we pronounce the words "Allah" in Arabic and "Elahh (pronounced as 'El-aw')" in Aramaic, then we would hear almost the same exact word.

Religion came from that part of the world (the middle east) it came down in Semitic tongue -- not in English.... if the audience can't comprehend that... then I reckon they have bigger problems than just words being lost in translation...

I have never been big on extending dawa to anyone...

[28 56] It is true thou wilt not be able to guide every one whom thou lovest; but Allah guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance."

I have always thought it a privilege to be a Muslim not a right....

 

[Grace Seeker]

but what is the god that the audience speaks of? the porcelain god? the river god...some Indian gods? a forest god? some female goddess?

Hence why I began: "If you feel that Allah is the same God that others would mean by the term God ...."

You obviously would not want to use any term other than Allah. It is possible that Muslim Woman might. And, looking at the title of this thread, she was speaking to non-Muslims when she asked her question.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace ,

...i have no problem with "kaffir" - like muezzin pointed out - it's just like "gentile" (goy). some people do find it offensive though, so it's best to use the more neutral term non-muslim..

--want to clarify something.......i don't use the word kafir , usually i write non-Muslim. U used the word kafir & i just used that jokingly....hope nobody misunderstood me hew

who knows? seriously, i do not like the use of fear or threat, as in the first post on this thread. when i read that, i read no further.

----ummmm , was not paradise was also mentioned in the 1st para ? So, it was not that horrific i guess :statisfie

 

[One Man Army]

looks like another post gets deleted. nothing was off topic on what i posted, a message was given 2 'kafirs' and so i gave my reply. and yet its deleted

 

[Panther]

If you're going to try to convert people who don't believe in Islam to the Islamic way, don't exclusively use verses from your holy book.

How can you expect people who don't believe in Allah to convert just because you explained that your holy book states that "Allah says this", or "Allah says that"?

Elsewhere on the internet, this thread would be deemed "epic fail".

I have no problem with being called a "Kafir". If people will choose speak to me in a hateful way for what I believe, so be it. I make no apologies for who I am.

 

[wilberhum]

If you're going to try to convert people who don't believe in Islam to the Islamic way, don't exclusively use verses from your holy book.

How can you expect people who don't believe in Allah to convert just because you explained that your holy book states that "Allah says this", or "Allah says that"?

Elsewhere on the internet, this thread would be deemed "epic fail".

I have no problem with being called a "Kafir". If people will choose speak to me in a hateful way for what I believe, so be it. I make no apologies for who I am.

Well stated.:thumbs_up

 

[جوري]

???--no one has expectations from you.. no interest in converting you...no one has tread on your atheists forums speaking of Allah-- to really care what it would be called else where on the net ...... and Who here has singled you as kaffir or spoken to you hatefully? pls take a deep breath and get a glass of water.. and just calm down... I feel like you have gone into hysterics! ......

peace!

 

[ranma1/2]

are all of your really thinking about it?

I find it amazing to perceive that anyone can think there is no God once they consider all the amazing mechanisms which are so perfectly synchronized.


.... omg..

And i find it so amazing how quickly people will go with the god of the gaps approach.