Who represents Muslims?

[siFilam]

Why is that thing missing. How many Muslims in the world want to live according to Sharia? If they're more than 100 thousand then don't you think that number is too small to start an independent state by buying a seperate peiece of land somewhere in the deserts or even in Saudi Arabia to make a state of their dreams? The fact is otherwise. They want to impose sharia only on others and not on themselves. Have you heard a single case in which sharia laws were impemented on a relgious scholar when a lot of them are caught on regular basis in cheap crimes that are punishable under the hudood laws.

Do u honestly think that the Saudi government would allow such thing to happen. You're right, not too many Muslims would be willing to live according to the Shariah. Why? This is not due to the faults of the Scholars (may Allah have mercy on them and raise their status Ameen). Yes, they are human being just like us but they are favored by Allah, The Most Exlated because in a Hadith it was said that when Allah wants to favor someone He grants them knowledge of Deen. The fact is the majority of the Muslims today are weak when it comes to practicing Islam. (May Allah forgive us Ameen.) Shariah would demand life according to Allah's ways not according to the desires of the majority of Muslims. That is why unfortunately too many Muslims oppose Shariah law in their own country. I’ve already told you that the respected Scholars who fear Allah live their life according to Shariah. They prefer Allah’s pleasure above their own comfort. Also, I’ve already stated that I will not argue with you about how to apply the Shariah because I lack knowledge regarding such topics. And you should do the same. Fear Allah and don’t speak out of your desire.

-SI-

 

[siFilam]

First of all, let me make it clear to you that I never blamed all the religious scholars for cheap crimes. Most of them look very pious and religious from outside. I don't how they're from inside. Therefore I don't blame them. I only blame those who are caught red handed for the cheap crimes. The crime of the pious looking religious scholars is that they remain silent or passive when they hear about the cheap crimes of their coleagues. Otherwise the same pious looking religious scholars make a hell out of the things when they hear about a similar crime committed by an ordinary person.

You contradict yourself too much...from the very beginning of our discussion you inaccurately generalized against all the scholars and blamed them for their lack of knowledge. :astagfiru May Allah forgive you

Of course there's nothing wrong with the sharia. The only thing is that you and your favorite religious scholars don't want to apply it on yourselves. Have you or any of your favorite religious scholar ever demanded to apply sharia on any religious scholar when caught red handed?

I've already challenged you that you'd never like to live a life 100% according to sharia. Try it for a few months. You can continue it for the rest of your life if you think it's the best way of living. Who is stopping you?

u keep repeating this question. and I've lost count of how many time I asnwered you. I'll say it again: people like you and hypocrite among the mulsims along with the disbelievers are stopping us.

What dou want to prove? Why it is unavoidable? You mean to say that there's no solution to secterianism in Islam? On one hand you claim that Islam has solution to every problem of the world and on the other you tell us that Islam has no solution to the problems created by religious scholars.

When you know that it's the religious scholars who created and promoted the sectarian problems and it's them who don't let us resolve these problems. You also know that they never solved any real problem for Muslims in history, then how do you even think of making them the representatives. You may make these dividers of Muslims as your representaives, but the majority of Muslims is not foolish.

Islam is perfect and it does have all the solutions. The problem is that the weak Muslims and hypocrites won't seek an Islamic solution. And if they are aware of the Islamic solution they don't apply it. Religious scholars didn't create sectarian problems. The ignorant who follow their evil desires creates such problems.

-SI-

 

[SirZubair]

I represent myself.

 

[SirZubair]

Speaking of the Shariah Laws...

... It cannot be applied until a khalifa has been established.

And in this time and age, there is no chance of a Khalifa being established. If you think there is a chance,... all i am going to say is 'open your eyes, take a look around'. Inorder for a khalifa to be established, muslims need to unite.

Muslim Unity?

There is no such thing.

So,... as lovely as it would be to live under Shariah laws,... its a dream which will remain nothing more than a dream during my lifetime.

So i am sticking to representing myself. I will go as far as to say that my teacher ( Afroz Ali ) represents me, but thats as far as i go.

 

[iqbal_soofi]

You contradict yourself too much...from the very beginning of our discussion you inaccurately generalized against all the scholars and blamed them for their lack of knowledge. :astagfiru May Allah forgive you

Where did I say that the religious scholars have lack of knowledge. As far as the real world knowledge is concerned, everybody knows that the religious shcolars know nothing about it. However, I've time and again said that they've a plenty of knowledge about Islam, rather more than anybody knew about Islam in history.

Allah may or may not forgive me but I'm sure He'll never forgive the liars like you and your so called scholars who put their own words into others mouths.

u keep repeating this question. and I've lost count of how many time I asnwered you. I'll say it again: people like you and hypocrite among the mulsims along with the disbelievers are stopping us.

This is another lie. When did I stop you? I only stop you and other fanatics not to force your opinion on others. You're free to do whatever you want to do with your own life, but you're not allowed to play with other people's lives. All sensible people will stop you. You call them as hypocrites.

You put the blame on others only because you yourself don't want to follow sharia for yourself. You only wish to see others following it. When others tell you the genuine reasons for their inability to follow an outdated law which nobody had ever followed, then you call them disbelievers.

Islam is perfect and it does have all the solutions. The problem is that the weak Muslims and hypocrites won't seek an Islamic solution. And if they are aware of the Islamic solution they don't apply it. Religious scholars didn't create sectarian problems. The ignorant who follow their evil desires creates such problems.

Yes I know Islam is perfect and have all the solutions. You don't need to tell me that. Religious scholars must be knowing that too. They're not just the religious scholars, but they're your representatives and leaders. So why don't you ask them to apply their knowledge of Islam and solve this problem. As far as I can understand, this problem of secterianism is not established or supported by less knowledgable people like myself. There're are very highly learned and powerful religious scholars behind as well as in the forefront of every sect. There may be a solution to every problem in Islam, but man, I tell you there's no solution for these people.

 

[SirZubair]

Where did I say that the religious scholars have lack of knowledge. As far as the real world knowledge is concerned, everybody knows that the religious shcolars know nothing about it.

Not true.

Do a google search on scholars named :

Shaykh Hamza Yusuf ( Zaytuna institute ) ( Teacher and good friend of Afroz Ali )

Imam Zaid Shakir ( Zaytuna institute )

Afroz Ali ( Al Ghazzali Centre ) ( My teacher and good friend )

Shaykh Nuh Keller ( Masud )

[ No Pic's Available ]

Times are changing.

Not all the scholars out there have welcomed the 21st century into their lives as they should have done, but like i said, times are changing.. slowly.

These men,... ONE of them can out do you in your knowledge of the 'real world' over and over and over.

 

[noodles]

Where did I say that the religious scholars have lack of knowledge. As far as the real world knowledge is concerned, everybody knows that the religious shcolars know nothing about it. However, I've time and again said that they've a plenty of knowledge about Islam, rather more than anybody knew about Islam in history.

Just so you know, Islam is a Way of Life. Scholars studied the lives of the prophet and his companions you can be sure of that. So much intense study has been done on the companions such that there have been volumes written by many authors on them.

You keep saying they have no "real world" knowledge, however, if you go to these volumes and pour over them looking for your specific problem, you're surely to find it. In 98-99% cases there are apprehendable solutions to your problems. However, when the majority of the muslims population is ignorant of all these books, who is to blame? Surely not the scholars, as they have already presented the population with the solution.

I've said this before and I'll say this again, many Muslims try to find an alternate solution just because the solution present to them is not liked.

Do you want to put all the blame on Muslims?

If Muslims are not willing to follow them, then the scholars should know why. Muslims do anything in the name of Islam when religious scholars give them a call. They can kill anyone, sometimes their own relatives and even themselves in the name of Islam. What more do you expect from a follower. Therefore, you're wrong when you put the blame on Muslims for not following the religious scholars.

You posted earlier on and I thought I should reply to this.

Of course I want to put the blame on muslims, as for scholars knowing why the Muslims arent following them, its obvious as I've stated earlier on, its because they opt to find easier and questionable routes to solve their problems.

You keep asking the same questions. Stand back and look at the issue from a broader perspective.

 

[Darkseid]

If it counts for anything you do have a muslim in the United States House of Representatives.

 

[siFilam]

:salamext:

If it counts for anything you do have a muslim in the United States House of Representatives.

yeah but he is very liberal. for example he supports gay marriage. This is not Islamic.

wasalam
-SI-

 

[iqbal_soofi]

Just so you know, Islam is a Way of Life. Scholars studied the lives of the prophet and his companions you can be sure of that. So much intense study has been done on the companions such that there have been volumes written by many authors on them.

You keep saying they have no "real world" knowledge, however, if you go to these volumes and pour over them looking for your specific problem, you're surely to find it. In 98-99% cases there are apprehendable solutions to your problems. However, when the majority of the muslims population is ignorant of all these books, who is to blame? Surely not the scholars, as they have already presented the population with the solution.

I've said this before and I'll say this again, many Muslims try to find an alternate solution just because the solution present to them is not liked.



You posted earlier on and I thought I should reply to this.

Of course I want to put the blame on muslims, as for scholars knowing why the Muslims arent following them, its obvious as I've stated earlier on, its because they opt to find easier and questionable routes to solve their problems.

You keep asking the same questions. Stand back and look at the issue from a broader perspective.

You made two contradictory statements in just one post.

First you said that Islam is a way of life. Which means a way to make an easy and simple life respectfully. Then you said that Muslims don't want to follow the religious scholars because they opt find easeir routes to solve their problems.

Now if they could find their solutions easily if Islam then why they look to other routes? Because those are easier than Islam. Is that what you said?

Now pay some attention to your two comments and think over it for some time. You'll then yourself know why Muslims don't make these religious scholars as their representatives.

You're totally confused and standing on the brink of a dark well thinking all of the your problems would be solved for ever at once if all of the Muslims jump into this well because there's solution for every problem in this dark well.

Why don't you and your religious scholars jump into it and solve your problems at least. Why are you spending money and time on the websites and other propaganda techniques to push innocent Muslims into this well by force. You're just wasting your time because majority of Muslims is not stupid, I tell you.

 

[SirZubair]

You're just wasting your time because majority of Muslims is not stupid, I tell you.

Yeah,... seems like the minority found its way to the internet.

 

[noodles]

You made two contradictory statements in just one post.

First you said that Islam is a way of life. Which means a way to make an easy and simple life respectfully. Then you said that Muslims don't want to follow the religious scholars because they opt find easeir routes to solve their problems.

Now if they could find their solutions easily if Islam then why they look to other routes? Because those are easier than Islam. Is that what you said?

Now pay some attention to your two comments and think over it for some time. You'll then yourself know why Muslims don't make these religious scholars as their representatives.

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem- I hope Allah grants me patience because clearly I'm running out.

Let me just clarify something. When you state "Which means a way to make an easy and simple life respectfully" that is incorrect.

Every religion has its own kind of practice. Moreover, many participants of that religion will find it difficult to adhere to its guidelines fully. (ie, Sikhism demands you to be in constant remembrance of their gurus, likewise, christianity demands its participants to visit the church every sunday among other things) Islam likely demands many things from its participants. If the simple commands of Allah are not undergone, then how do you expect the bigger commands to take place? Yes, it's the necessity of EVERY muslim to follow the given set of rules. However, muslims now-a-days try to weasel out of the most simplests tasks by making petty excuses and finding alternate rules to accomplish it. (I admit, I try not to. But it happens)

Yes, its easy to not wear the Hijab, but are you suggesting the scholars Fatwa it and make it unnecessary just because it doesn't sit will with present day muslims? Scholars know their obligations and that is to spread the word of islam and help the muslims with their problems. If the muslims aren't paying heed, then it is their own fault.

You're totally confused and standing on the brink of a dark well thinking all of the your problems would be solved for ever at once if all of the Muslims jump into this well because there's solution for every problem in this dark well.

Why don't you and your religious scholars jump into it and solve your problems at least. Why are you spending money and time on the websites and other propaganda techniques to push innocent Muslims into this well by force. You're just wasting your time because majority of Muslims is not stupid, I tell you.

I never said the Hadeeth and the Qur'an has a solution to every complication that a muslims faces. I did say that most of problems found today are there present in those volumes.



Here it has been repeated about 10 times now in this same thread. Here is an example from the previous page, that you didn't understand properly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi View Post
Do you want to put all the blame on Muslims?

Akhi, who do you want to blame? Scholars have spoken on what we need to do. A person sins it's their fault. True we don't have a Khalifa, ok, a scholar cannot bring a khalifa, the Muslims need to bring one as a community.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi View Post
If Muslims are not willing to follow them, then the scholars should know why.
Scholars are humans, they can call a person to pray, they can quote hadith and tell the person of the importance, but its not their job to push you physically into praying. Furthermore, there are some reasons that cannot be helped, arrogance is one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi View Post
Muslims do anything in the name of Islam when religious scholars give them a call. They can kill anyone, sometimes their own relatives and even themselves in the name of Islam. What more do you expect from a follower.
Oh yes, I can see the multitude of Muslims who willingly shave, uncover, sell haram, use interest, and pray only when they can, I can see them moving to Muslim countries and sacrifising a day without food, can you see that? Come on, let alone see those Muslims standing up for justice in the name of Islam.


Quote:
Originally Posted by iqbal_soofi View Post
Therefore, you're wrong when you put the blame on Muslims for not following the religious scholars. The religious schlars have made their followers do all kinds of destructions in and outside their homelands; but they could not make the Muslims do a single contructive job other than constructing mosques and madrisas for themselves.
I don't know what scholars your on about, knowledge is what we need, brother let me ask you how many Muslim parents here in the Uk make their children memorise Qu'ran? How many parents make their children cover, or even themselves cover properly? How many Muslims in the uk contradict the prophet is simple things like not shaving?

I've seen it, even if we had the plan set out 100% I doubt most muslims here would follow it.

 

[siFilam]

:salamext:
Brother Noodles,
It’s no use arguing with Iqbal_soofi. Some people seek guidance and a chance to examine their own views through discussions. This is not the case here. So I figured its best not to answer him and argue for the sake of arguing. This is useless.
wasalam
-SI-

 

[Talha777]

A common myth people have about Islam is that there is no "church" or organized leadership. That may be the contemporary situation, but it is not the ideal one. After the death of our Holy Prophet (Sall Allahu alaihi wa sala'am), Allah Taala gave us the khilafat as our spiritual and political guidance. Khilafat is a guiding light. Now we need to work to restore this institution with the Help of Allah, which will come once we have united sincerely ourselves in this virtuous cause. The Muslims should be an organized Jama'at (Congregation/Church), with organized and effective leadership, just like in the days of Rasoolullah (Sall Allahu alaihi wa sala'am) and his companions. Sooner we are organized and have the institution of khilafat the sooner we will be able to propogate our religion more effectively and facilitate taqwa among the masses. Our Holy Prophet (Sall Allahu alaihi wa salaam) forbade that even three people should venture on a journey without one being appointed an ameer over the other.

 

[iqbal_soofi]

:salamext:
Brother Noodles,
It’s no use arguing with Iqbal_soofi. Some people seek guidance and a chance to examine their own views through discussions. This is not the case here. So I figured its best not to answer him and argue for the sake of arguing. This is useless.
wasalam
-SI-

For me a right is right even if it's done by a Muslim or a non-Muslim, and a wrong is wrong even if it's done by a Muslim or a non-Muslim. Therefore, the fanatics cannot convince me otherwise with stupid kind of illogical arguments.

The fans of religious scholars have double standards. They've a different standard for the common people and a different one for the religious scholars. They wish to apply the sharia only on the common people but not on the religious scholars. They blindly believe that the religious scholaras are angels who always live their lives according to the Sharia. They close their eyes when any of the religious scholars is caught red handed. If somebody wants to try a religious scholar for a crime, they create a lot of nuaisance and start shouting that Islam is in danger. They're actually mentaly sick people. They fail to understand the simeple reason why majority of Muslims don't like the relgious scholars.

 

[iqbal_soofi]

A common myth people have about Islam is that there is no "church" or organized leadership. That may be the contemporary situation, but it is not the ideal one. After the death of our Holy Prophet (Sall Allahu alaihi wa sala'am), Allah Taala gave us the khilafat as our spiritual and political guidance. Khilafat is a guiding light. Now we need to work to restore this institution with the Help of Allah, which will come once we have united sincerely ourselves in this virtuous cause. The Muslims should be an organized Jama'at (Congregation/Church), with organized and effective leadership, just like in the days of Rasoolullah (Sall Allahu alaihi wa sala'am) and his companions. Sooner we are organized and have the institution of khilafat the sooner we will be able to propogate our religion more effectively and facilitate taqwa among the masses. Our Holy Prophet (Sall Allahu alaihi wa salaam) forbade that even three people should venture on a journey without one being appointed an ameer over the other.

Khilafat worked in simple and small societies. Now we've big countries with a lot more complex lifestyle. Today's societies need a lot more institutions and departments to handle different kinds of tasks. It's true that the modern religious scholars have much more knowledge of Islam than the old time khalifas and their aides, but still that's not enough to handle the modern departments of life.

 

[Talha777]

Khilafat worked in simple and small societies. Now we've big countries with a lot more complex lifestyle. Today's societies need a lot more institutions and departments to handle different kinds of tasks. It's true that the modern religious scholars have much more knowledge of Islam than the old time khalifas and their aides, but still that's not enough to handle the modern departments of life.

Khilafat is a divinely established institution, and insha Allah it will work for all times until Day of Judgment. First of all, khilafat is primarily a spiritual leadership, and khilafat can exist without a government or Islamic state. Muslims can still take bayath to the Khalifa without him being in charge of a government. It is more ideal, however, that all the Muslim majority states are united under the federal government of a Khalifa. In that case, political governance will require departments and councils, which did exist during the time of khulafa rashideen (Razi Allah Taala Anhum).

 

[iqbal_soofi]

Khilafat is a divinely established institution, and insha Allah it will work for all times until Day of Judgment. First of all, khilafat is primarily a spiritual leadership, and khilafat can exist without a government or Islamic state. Muslims can still take bayath to the Khalifa without him being in charge of a government. It is more ideal, however, that all the Muslim majority states are united under the federal government of a Khalifa. In that case, political governance will require departments and councils, which did exist during the time of khulafa rashideen (Razi Allah Taala Anhum).

You don't know what you're talking. Totally confused and lost in idealism. The religious scholars who teach spirtualism to you could be the representatives of the confused and misguided people like yourself. But majority of Muslims is still sensible and wise. They don't like the relgious scholars or spirtual thugs to represent them.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

What are you talking about? Islam is spiritual and intellectual.

 

[siFilam]

:salamext:
I had made up my mind before not to answer you. But I couldn't resist. Your ignorance is very misleading and alluring to Muslims with little knowledge of Islam. I'm not implying that I am very smart and knowledgeable about Islam but Alhamdulilah that Allah gave me ability to understand and accept the Shair'ah as the only way to live.

Khilafat worked in simple and small societies. Now we've big countries with a lot more complex lifestyle. Today's societies need a lot more institutions and departments to handle different kinds of tasks.

In Surah Al-Maeda Allah said that He completed and perfected this religion. This means that the Shari'ah is compatible with every single human society until the Day of Judgment. There is no exception and it doesn’t make any difference whether the lifestyle is simple or complex. He perfected it for the human race until Resurrection.
You said “small societies”, u think the companions of Prophet (peace of upon him) ruled small societies. They controlled vast empires with people of different culture and society. But they all came under one Way of Life, Islam.

It's true that the modern religious scholars have much more knowledge of Islam than the old time khalifas and their aides, but still that's not enough to handle the modern departments of life.

No, modern religious scholars do not have more knowledge of Islam compared to the four rightly guided Khalifah (may Allah be pleased with them) and the other Companions (may Allah be pleased with them).
Your problem is that you place more value on mundane knowledge than religious knowledge. And your view on religion is very narrow. You restrict it only to spiritual concerns when Islam is literally “A WAY OF LIFE”. It’s a way to execute every action necessary for our survival whether it’s political, social or economic issue. So don’t u think a religious scholar, the expert in Islam, would be able to carry out duties regarding the “modern departments of life”.

wasalam
-SI-