Did Jesus fulfill (For unto us a child is born,Isaiah 9:6-7 )?

[back_to_faith]

The writer of the book of Matthew endeavors to make his readers believe that certain Old testament passages were fulfilled by Jesus ,He cut out a sentence from some passage of the Old Testament and call it a prophecy of that case. But when the words thus cut out are restored to the place they are taken from, and read with the words before and after them, they give the lie to him...he did it with Isaiah 7:14,Hosea 11:1,Jeremiah (31:15),Micah 5:2,Zech. 9:9, etc ...

the following so called peophecy never mentioned by NT writers as a prophecy of Jesus ,however translators and commentators have, of their own imagination, erected it into prophecy......

as a matter of fact It could be applied to any other religious figure but Jesus,
let us read the text:


"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with justice and righteousness from hence forth even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this. (Isaiah 9:6-7)"

1-"his name" shall be called. It doesn't say He will be the.

2-Where in the NT Jesus ever been called Mighty God or The everlasting Father.These names/titles actually are inconsistent with common references to Jesus.

3-according the the writers of the New Testament, Jesus said and did many things which had elements which would disqualify him from the title of champion of peace.
For example, read Matthew 10:34 (Luke 12:51), "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." Surely, this does not portray someone who is called The Prince of Peace.
what makes matters worse is this part of the passage(the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end),in the light of the fact that Jeus caused (nations) to destroy the house of David by sword, and to scatter their remnant, and to humiliate them,such phrase can by no mean applied to Jesus, also such phrase describes the reign of a successful king, such as King Solomon whose reign was described in similar terms:

1 Kings 2:12 - And Solomon sat on the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was firmly established.


Apparently, this passage presented an opportunity for Church translators to infuse into the words of the Prophet Isaiah some Christological "spin" that would turn it into a messianic prophecy about Jesus.

 

[dougmusr]

The writer of the book of Matthew endeavors to make his readers believe that certain Old testament passages were fulfilled by Jesus ,He cut out a sentence from some passage of the Old Testament and call it a prophecy of that case. But when the words thus cut out are restored to the place they are taken from, and read with the words before and after them, they give the lie to him...he did it with Isaiah 7:14,Hosea 11:1,Jeremiah (31:15),Micah 5:2,Zech. 9:9, etc ...

the following so called peophecy never mentioned by NT writers as a prophecy of Jesus ,however translators and commentators have, of their own imagination, erected it into prophecy......

as a matter of fact It could be applied to any other religious figure but Jesus,

I assume you are including the prophet Muhammad in the word "any", yet he was involved in wars was he not?

For the sake of discussion, are you saying that you agree that Isaiah 9:6-7 is a valid prophecy, and just disagree with its application to Jesus, or are you saying that the verse is part of the corrupted OT and the claims of the verse are suspect regardless of the child to whom they refer?

1-"his name" shall be called. It doesn't say He will be the.

So you would render this as "and his name shall be (incorrectly) called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace". If so, then Jesus has fulfilled this prophecy by virtue of the fact that the Quran denys the diety of Jesus.

2-Where in the NT Jesus ever been called Mighty God or The everlasting Father.These names/titles actually are inconsistent with common references to Jesus.

So you would render the verse, "and his name shall be (incorrectly) called (in the New Testament) Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace".

In fact, I believe that there are many references to the diety of Christ in the New Testament. I could list a few for you if you like. Yet outside of the NT Jesus is called by these names among Christians world wide on a daily basis. So the prophecy is fulfilled.

3-according the the writers of the New Testament, Jesus said and did many things which had elements which would disqualify him from the title of champion of peace.
For example, read Matthew 10:34 (Luke 12:51), "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."

One only has to look at the news to know that this is true. Disagreements over the identity of Christ are even today causing violence, particularly in societies that have Christianity and Islam in close proximity. Have you seen the videos of hostages on Al Jazerra? What happens to Muslims who convert to Christianity in places like Indonesia, Saudia Arabia, etc? Yet Christ's message will ultimately bring eternal peace. It is unfortunate that the flight will encounter momentary turbulence on the way to the eternal destination.

what makes matters worse is this part of the passage(the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end),in the light of the fact that Jeus caused (nations) to destroy the house of David by sword, and to scatter their remnant, and to humiliate them

This verse speaks about an eternal kingdom, and eternal peace. I would take justice and righteousness to be eternal also. The fact that Israel was punished for lack of obedience to God shows that divine justice was even then being administered. It is my understanding that the Quran was revealed to correct the earlier scriptures, and includes an indictment of those who failed to follow the earlier revelation. Is this not divine justice?

 

[dougmusr]

Timely article on Al Jazerra mentions the sword, just what Christ spoke about.

A Christian bookshop and an internet cafe have been damaged in bomb blasts in Gaza City on Sunday, Palestinian police said.

While attacks against Christian sites in the territory are rare, at least 40 internet cafes and video shops have been attacked in the past several months.

There was no claim of responsibility.

Many of these bombings were claimed by a group called "The Righteous Swords of Islam".

 

[rebelishaulman]

Please read this:
http://www.messiahtruth.com/isa9.html

"Prince of Peace" was the title given to King Hezekiah (the son and sign given to King Ahaz ) because a war was looming with Assyria and through counsel Hezekiah defeated assyria bringing the much needed and important peace. THe context of Isaiah 7 and 9 is regarding King Hezekiah who had his fathers kingdom upon his shoulders. Which is why often times it's taken out of context and words are changed by missionaries to fit their icon who never brough peace and could not have been a sign for Ahaz who lived 600 yrs prior.

It's probably the most falacious used term on the icon, calling him 'prince of peace' without reality of peace nor clue that they are using a verse about Hezekiah not a messianic prophecy.

Isaiah 9:5-6 is not a messianic prophecy. The correct context of this passage is that it describes events that had already taken place in Jewish history, namely, events concerning the birth of this child (believed to be Hezekiah, the son of King Ahaz), and a prophecy concerning his future as King of Judah. Hezekiah's role was to lift Judah from the degenerate conditions into which it had sunk, and he would lead the indestructible faithful "Remnant of Israel". This passage speaks of the wonders performed by G-d for Hezekiah as King of Judah, and in it, the Prophet expresses his praise of G-d for sparing Hezekiah and his kingdom from demise at the hands of Sannheriv, who besieged Jerusalem.

 

[dougmusr]

So are you saying that the Jews at the time referred to Hezekiah as "Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace"?

 

[*Hana*]

The writer of the book of Matthew endeavors to make his readers believe that certain Old testament passages were fulfilled by Jesus ,He cut out a sentence from some passage of the Old Testament and call it a prophecy of that case. But when the words thus cut out are restored to the place they are taken from, and read with the words before and after them, they give the lie to him...he did it with Isaiah 7:14,Hosea 11:1,Jeremiah (31:15),Micah 5:2,Zech. 9:9, etc ...

the following so called peophecy never mentioned by NT writers as a prophecy of Jesus ,however translators and commentators have, of their own imagination, erected it into prophecy......

as a matter of fact It could be applied to any other religious figure but Jesus,
let us read the text:


"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with justice and righteousness from hence forth even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this. (Isaiah 9:6-7)"

1-"his name" shall be called. It doesn't say He will be the.

2-Where in the NT Jesus ever been called Mighty God or The everlasting Father.These names/titles actually are inconsistent with common references to Jesus.

3-according the the writers of the New Testament, Jesus said and did many things which had elements which would disqualify him from the title of champion of peace.
For example, read Matthew 10:34 (Luke 12:51), "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." Surely, this does not portray someone who is called The Prince of Peace.
what makes matters worse is this part of the passage(the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end),in the light of the fact that Jeus caused (nations) to destroy the house of David by sword, and to scatter their remnant, and to humiliate them,such phrase can by no mean applied to Jesus, also such phrase describes the reign of a successful king, such as King Solomon whose reign was described in similar terms:

1 Kings 2:12 - And Solomon sat on the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was firmly established.


Apparently, this passage presented an opportunity for Church translators to infuse into the words of the Prophet Isaiah some Christological "spin" that would turn it into a messianic prophecy about Jesus.

Salam Alaikum Brother:

Are you taking this information from Thomas Paine articles/books? If not, will you please let me know your source.

Jazak Allah Khair

Wasalam,
Hana

 

[rebelishaulman]

So are you saying that the Jews at the time referred to Hezekiah as "Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace"?

(Please read the entire post before posting again)
Translation from Hebrew:

For a child has been born to us, a son has been given to us, and the authority was placed upon his shoulder, and [he] called his name: Wondrous Adviser, Mighty G-d [or, Mighty Hero], Eternal Patron, Ruler of Peace; for the increase of the authority and for peace without end, on David's throne and on his kingdom, to establish it and to support it with justice and with righteousness; from now and to eternity, the zeal of the L-rd of Hosts shall accomplish this.

The last verb in Isaiah 9:5 is followed by a series of names/titles. These names/titles are actually components of an expression which, in its totality, may be viewed as a long name/title that refers to someone. Apparently, this set of names/titles appealed to the KJV translators as an easy target for editing to support the Christological message that was being developed for this passage.

The first name/title is (pele yo'etz), Wondrous Adviser, and it appears in the Hebrew Bible only once, here in Isaiah 9:5, which preempts the ability to do a comparative analysis as was done for the verbs. In the KJV rendition, this name/title is separated into two entities – Wonderful and Counsellor. Although a comparative analysis here is precluded, as explained, the rules of Hebrew grammar still apply. According to the rules of Hebrew grammar, this split may not be done. While the two terms can stand on their own as nouns, they take on different meanings as such. The term (pele) means a wonder or a marvel, as may be seen in its only two occurrences, in singular form, in the Book of Isaiah – at Isaiah 25:1 as (pele), a wonder, and at Isaiah 29:14 as (va'phele), and a wonder. The noun (yo'etz) means an adviser or a counselor, as may be seen from its two occurrences, in singular form, in the Book of Isaiah – at Isaiah 3:3 as (veyo'etz), and an adviser or and a counselor, and at Isaiah 41:28 as (yo'etz), a counselor.

Considering the factual evidence from Hebrew grammar, the rendition by the KJV of (pele yo'etz) as two separate names/titles cannot be correct.

The next name/title is (el gibbor). This expression appears three times in the Hebrew Bible. Two of these cases are in the singular form, and are found in the Book of Isaiah – at Isaiah 9:5, 10:21. The third instance is found at Ezekiel 32:21, where it appears in the plural form, (elei gibborim).

The components of this name/title are (el) and (gibbor). The term (el) is common in the Hebrew Bible, and it has three applications. The most frequent use of this term is in reference to G-d (e.g. Exod 34:6). Another application is in reference to other gods, i.e., idols (e.g., Exod 34:14). The third use of this term is to identify someone strong or mighty (e.g., Ezek 17:13; Ps 29:1), or even something powerful (e.g., Ps 90:11). The term (gibbor) is commonly used in the Hebrew Bible to identify someone who is mighty, brave, a hero (e.g., Gen 10:9; Zech 9:13).

The combined expression, (el gibbor), can have different meanings, depending on the context of the surrounding passage. (el gibbor) can mean mighty hero, when the context speaks of a person, or it can mean Mighty G-d, when the context refers to G-d. The KJV renders (el gibbor) as The mighty God at Isaiah 9:6, and as the mighty God at Isaiah 10:21. Most Jewish translations render these as Mighty G-d and the mighty G-d, respectively.


Example:

The strongest of the mighty men (elgiborim) shall speak of him from the midst of the Grave and with his helpers; the uncircumcised, those slain by the sword, descended and lay down.(Ezekial 32:21)​

Instead of "elgibor" which Christians translate as "mighty G-d" the same Christians translate this which is the plural as "strongest of mighty men".

Though the KJV renditions appear to be consistent with the common Jewish translations, they differ in terms of the definite article the, which is capitalized at Isaiah 9:6 and in lower case at Isaiah 10:21. Also, the definite article (ha), the, is not present in the Hebrew name//title (el gibbor) at Isaiah 9:5. The same is true for Isaiah 10:21, except that, in this case, due to the presence of the preposition (el-), to, and the context of the passage, the definite article (ha), the, is implicit; both translations agree on this. The alternate translation has been added to Table IV.A.2-2 because it is both valid within the context of each passage and helpful in identifying of whom Isaiah might be speaking here. This will be further explored later on.

The next name/title is (avi-ad), and it appears in the Hebrew Bible only once, here in Isaiah 9:5. Consequently, no comparisons are possible, though some analysis will shed light on how to correctly understand it. This name/title is a compound term, in the possessive form, which is made up of two components. The first component, (avi), is the possessive form of the noun (av). The Hebrew noun (av) appears in the Hebrew Bible 723 times, and in several different contexts. The predominant application of this term is a father. However, the (singular) noun is also applied as: (a) a grandfather (e.g., Gen 31:42, 32:10); (b) a progenitor of a line of descendants (e.g., Gen 17:4, Is 51:2); (c) one who is the first of a kind or an inventor (e.g., Gen 4:20,21); (d) an advisor, a counselor, a patron (e.g., Gen 45:8, Job 29:16); (e) a founder (e.g., Josh 17:1, 1 Chron 2:50). In addition, the term is used as a form of address to a prophet, a king, etc. (e.g., 1 Sam 24:12, 2 Kgs 5:13), and in the plural it has additional applications in the Hebrew Bible; however, neither of these applications are significant to Isaiah 9:5[6]. Consequently, according to the various applications given above, the first component of this name/title, (avi) can have meanings such as, father of…, or grandfather of…, or progenitor of…, etc.

The second component of this name/title is (ad), and it is used in Hebrew as either a preposition, such as by (a certain time); to, up-to; till, until, and as a noun, eternity, when in combinations with other terms.

What is the correct application in Isaiah 9:5? The Hebrew concordance[3] lists (avi-ad) as one of the 22 cases in which the application of the noun (av) falls under category (d) above, an advisor, a counselor, a patron. Therefore, the literal translation of (avi-ad) would be advisor of eternity, or counselor of eternity, or patron of eternity. In terms of the passage and its context, perhaps the most appropriate translation of this name/title (avi-ad) is Eternal Patron. Most Jewish translations render it Everlasting Father, and the KJV renders it The everlasting Father.

 

[dougmusr]

For a child has been born to us, a son has been given to us, and the authority was placed upon his shoulder, and [he] called his name: Wondrous Adviser, Mighty G-d [or, Mighty Hero], Eternal Patron, Ruler of Peace; for the increase of the authority and for peace without end, on David's throne and on his kingdom, to establish it and to support it with justice and with righteousness; from now and to eternity, the zeal of the L-rd of Hosts shall accomplish this.

Thanks for the detailed translation. I did indeed read it all. So in the end, the translation is very similar to the NKJ Bible. I would suppose you would take "Mighty G-d [or, Mighty Hero]," to be the latter one, even though you say that "Most Jewish translations render these as Mighty G-d and the mighty G-d, respectively." I don't know enough about the Jewish teachings on King Hezekiah to know if he was considered a Mighty Hero. If you believe it refers to "Mighty God", then and don't believe it refers to the Messiah, then I would be interested to know who the verse refers to.

 

[back_to_faith]

I assume you are including the prophet Muhammad in the word "any", yet he was involved in wars was he not?


I never claimed that It refers to the prophet Mohamed peace be upon him,and If a muslim uses it I will refute him as well.....


For the sake of discussion, are you saying that you agree that Isaiah 9:6-7 is a valid prophecy, and just disagree with its application to Jesus, or are you saying that the verse is part of the corrupted OT and the claims of the verse are suspect regardless of the child to whom they refer?


To say whether it is a valid prophecy or not ,not our topic...to apply it to Jesus ,here we object....


So you would render the verse, "and his name shall be (incorrectly) called (in the New Testament) Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace".

In fact, I believe that there are many references to the diety of Christ in the New Testament. I could list a few for you if you like. Yet outside of the NT Jesus is called by these names among Christians world wide on a daily basis. So the prophecy is fulfilled.

dougmusr .Don't be absured ,where is Jesus called among christians (The everlasting Father) Jesus said in Matthew 23:9 "Call no one on earth your father; you have but one Father in heaven."
what counts is what he has been called during his lif on earth,those who call him some of such titles after his death in order to impose the prophecy on him ,deserve no attention.

so again the questions:
Where is Jesus called (The everlasting Father) ....etc?

One only has to look at the news to know that this is true. Disagreements over the identity of Christ are even today causing violence.
This verse speaks about an eternal kingdom, and eternal peace. I would take justice and righteousness to be eternal also. The fact that Israel was punished for lack of obedience to God shows that divine justice was even then being administered.

That is all irrelivant,my friend ,you tried to reason what caused the message of Jesus to be violent and disastrous on the house of David,and hence violate the title(prince of peace).......as a matter of fact What reasons behind the violence holds no merit....the prophecy talks about someone ( the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. )

why the (new paganism christianity)and its leader (Jesus according to the NT)failed to be peaceful ,why the Jews been punished etc is wholly without merit and irrelevant to the argument.......

the verse promises of someone who will bring never-ending age of peace and justice to the house of David,not on someone caused (nations) to destroy the house of David by sword, and to scatter their remnant, and to humiliate them !!!!

 

[back_to_faith]

Salam Alaikum Brother:

Are you taking this information from Thomas Paine articles/books? If not, will you please let me know your source.

Jazak Allah Khair

Wasalam,
Hana

Salam Alaikum,Sister:

actually I'm not taking this information from Thomas Paine articles,I only sometimes like to use expressions,literally style by him or others and If I think that one of his articles unique ,I will copy and paste the link in the thread ........I never found the issue of our thread(Isaiah 9:6) in his writings online .

I will give you links for my sources when I quote them ,as I usually do in my posts....Just stay with us and read our posts....and thank you very much .

Jazak Allah Khair

 

[Jesus123]

The writer of the book of Matthew endeavors to make his readers believe that certain Old testament passages were fulfilled by Jesus ,He cut out a sentence from some passage of the Old Testament and call it a prophecy of that case. But when the words thus cut out are restored to the place they are taken from, and read with the words before and after them, they give the lie to him...he did it with Isaiah 7:14,Hosea 11:1,Jeremiah (31:15),Micah 5:2,Zech. 9:9, etc ...

the following so called peophecy never mentioned by NT writers as a prophecy of Jesus ,however translators and commentators have, of their own imagination, erected it into prophecy......

as a matter of fact It could be applied to any other religious figure but Jesus,
let us read the text:


"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with justice and righteousness from hence forth even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this. (Isaiah 9:6-7)"

1-"his name" shall be called. It doesn't say He will be the.

2-Where in the NT Jesus ever been called Mighty God or The everlasting Father.These names/titles actually are inconsistent with common references to Jesus.

3-according the the writers of the New Testament, Jesus said and did many things which had elements which would disqualify him from the title of champion of peace.
For example, read Matthew 10:34 (Luke 12:51), "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." Surely, this does not portray someone who is called The Prince of Peace.
what makes matters worse is this part of the passage(the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end),in the light of the fact that Jeus caused (nations) to destroy the house of David by sword, and to scatter their remnant, and to humiliate them,such phrase can by no mean applied to Jesus, also such phrase describes the reign of a successful king, such as King Solomon whose reign was described in similar terms:

1 Kings 2:12 - And Solomon sat on the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was firmly established.


Apparently, this passage presented an opportunity for Church translators to infuse into the words of the Prophet Isaiah some Christological "spin" that would turn it into a messianic prophecy about Jesus.

Who else do you think Isaiah 9:6!!!!!


It seems you never read the New Testament


the Wonderful, Counselor , Mighty God,The Prince of Peace who has everlasting spritual kingdom.
Amen

 

[back_to_faith]

Who else do you think Isaiah 9:6!!!!!


It seems you never read the New Testament


the Wonderful, Counselor , Mighty God,The Prince of Peace who has everlasting spritual kingdom.
Amen

What is going on here?!!!!

Have you ever read all the posts?

It seems that you and dougmusr ,would like to argue off topic argument !!!!
both of you try to shift the argument from
Did Jesus fulfill (For unto us a child is born,Isaiah 9:6-7 )? to
Who fulfilled (For unto us a child is born,Isaiah 9:6-7)?
Both of you can start a thread ,call it Who fulfilled (For unto us a child is born,Isaiah 9:6-7)? and there could be arguments such as:
that Jesus could be the fulfillment,or Ezekial or still to be fulfilled in the future etc......

Just we are here to prove whether Jesus fulfilled Isaiah 9:6 in all of its details or not........

you wrote:
(It seems you never read the New Testament)

Having read the New testament in Greek,English,Arabic,It seems that I suffer from a reading comprehension trouble !!
would you please do me a favor and open my eyes to the scripture ,and show me
where was Jesus called:The everlasting Father?
Matthew 23:9 "Call no one on earth your father; you have but one Father in heaven." !!!!


Don't you think that if Isaiah 9:6 to be rewritten as follows, would fit Jesus?:

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government shall never be upon his shoulder; and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The humililated son of God, The everlasting son, The Prince who send sword not peace to the house of David. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no beginning ,not upon the throne of David, but upon his spritual kingdom, till forever. (Isaiah 9:6-7)"

again:


where was Jesus called:The everlasting Father?

Where did Jesus prove himself to be a successful king to a physical kingdom ,as the text affirms that in a clear language:
(Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom)?exactly as , 1 Kings 2:12 - And Solomon sat on the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was firmly established.?

from now and on I want you to support you comments with a proof text,if not don't bother...

 

[back_to_faith]

In fact, I believe that there are many references to the diety of Christ in the New Testament. I could list a few for you if you like. Yet outside of the NT Jesus is called by these names among Christians world wide on a daily basis. So the prophecy is fulfilled.

(Yet outside of the NT Jesus is called by these names among Christians world wide on a daily basis. So the prophecy is fulfilled.)

your argument is as absured as someone claims that the fact that Jesus is called by christians (the promised Messiah) is a prove and a fulfillment of the Tankah messianic prophecies!!!

the same absurdity could be If someone argues that Mohamed(peace be upon him) is a fulfillment to OT passages only because he is called a prophet by muslims !!!

also you forgot to show us where Jesus is called The everlasting Father among Christians world wide on a daily basis,as you claim?Nobody calls or called Jesus Wonderful, Counsellor, or Everlasting Father..
at best ,He is the Everlasting Son, not Father

anyone serious will focus more not on the titles,but on the actions he must do in order to prove that the passage could be applied to him and only to him..........

this is the crucial part of the passage:

(Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom)

Jesus did not set up a government of peace without end or, indeed, any government.


pity on those that have been victimized by such far-fetched christian interpretation.

 

[don532]

You continue to be stuck in the interpretation Jesus was here to set up an earthly kingdom or government. I guess we will forever differ on this. I know. Off-topic.

From John chapter 18.

36Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

37"You are a king, then!" said Pilate.
Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."

 

[AB517]

HI

My God please help us see you.

We are arguing over the meanings of text. Can the Mind and Heart of God be in any one mans hand?

Did Mohamed (Peace Be Upon Him) write the Koran in the first person?

The bible was written after the fact. As soon as some one else writes it there is another level of perception. Perception, in the mind, is the equivalent to translation (verbal), in the physical world. Not to mention putting the experience that you felt into words. How can I do justice to “Shoveling Snow” when I write a letter to someone does not know of snow?

The Koran can be used to discount the Bible as easy as the bible discounts the Koran. It is logical then for us to use each of these to find Gods will. Although I would never be so arrogant to assume I or any other man can know the will of God, I would assume a big part of his will is to love all of his creation and treat all his creation with equal respect. I use the Bible to teach me how to treat my brothers on this planet. I know that Moslems do the same with the Koran.

Weather or not this fulfilled that missies the point of these books.

Are we thy brother’s keepers?

Do you beat your wife?

Did you steal from thy neighbor?

Did you bring down the sword in gods name to kill children to carry out The Righteousness of God?

These books speak of such things, Jew, Christian, and Moslem should be sorry for acts of violence. Ideas tend to spread by killing everyone opposed to them. Is this right? I don’t know … I really don’t know.

I do know as a United States Citizen that the United States is not perfect, could you imagine if we assumed we were the only righteous people and were sent by God to carry out his vengeance. People have done this before with mass killing. Christians have done it, Jews have done it, and Muslims have done it. This is just three groups. Ladies and gentlemen someone mite be wrong, we all mite be wrong.

WOW, too much… I stop now.

 

[don532]

HI

My God please help us see you.

We are arguing over the meanings of text. Can the Mind and Heart of God be in any one mans hand?

Did Mohamed (Peace Be Upon Him) write the Koran in the first person?

The bible was written after the fact. As soon as some one else writes it there is another level of perception. Perception, in the mind, is the equivalent to translation (verbal), in the physical world. Not to mention putting the experience that you felt into words. How can I do justice to “Shoveling Snow” when I write a letter to someone does not know of snow?

The Koran can be used to discount the Bible as easy as the bible discounts the Koran. It is logical then for us to use each of these to find Gods will. Although I would never be so arrogant to assume I or any other man can know the will of God, I would assume a big part of his will is to love all of his creation and treat all his creation with equal respect. I use the Bible to teach me how to treat my brothers on this planet. I know that Moslems do the same with the Koran.

Weather or not this fulfilled that missies the point of these books.

Are we thy brother’s keepers?

Do you beat your wife?

Did you steal from thy neighbor?

Did you bring down the sword in gods name to kill children to carry out The Righteousness of God?

These books speak of such things, Jew, Christian, and Moslem should be sorry for acts of violence. Ideas tend to spread by killing everyone opposed to them. Is this right? I don’t know … I really don’t know.

I do know as a United States Citizen that the United States is not perfect, could you imagine if we assumed we were the only righteous people and were sent by God to carry out his vengeance. People have done this before with mass killing. Christians have done it, Jews have done it, and Muslims have done it. This is just three groups. Ladies and gentlemen someone mite be wrong, we all mite be wrong.

WOW, too much… I stop now.

AB, I think you're in the wrong room here. Go down the hall to the left where the guys in the white coats are and check yourself in. Have a nice day!

 

[back_to_faith]

You continue to be stuck in the interpretation Jesus was here to set up an earthly kingdom or government. I guess we will forever differ on this. I know. Off-topic.

From John chapter 18.

36Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

37"You are a king, then!" said Pilate.
Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."

Greetings,
If the kingdom of Jesus is from another place(spritual),then it is necessarily requires that the kingdom of king David was spritual too !!!


" Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom (Isaiah 9:7)"

you see How absured the argument of spritual kingdom?!!!

If Jesus asserted that he had a million of spritual kingdoms,he could never have the required kingdom(the physical Davidic kingdom),which (Isaiah 9:7) affirms.................

What a nonsense If it is said(Jesus set up a spritual government upon the spritual kingdom of King David!!!!)




37"You are a king, then!" said Pilate.
Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king.

If I were Pilate,I would have sung for Jesus:
Where's your crown, king nothing?

peace

 

[back_to_faith]

HI

My God please help us see you.



I do know as a United States Citizen that the United States is not perfect, could you imagine if we assumed we were the only righteous people and were sent by God to carry out his vengeance. People have done this before with mass killing. Christians have done it, Jews have done it, and Muslims have done it. This is just three groups. Ladies and gentlemen someone mite be wrong, we all mite be wrong.

WOW, too much… I stop now.

Greetings,
Well,
thank you very much for your post,though irrelevant to the topic.....

here though we argue ,and sometimes i get harsh with some people here.....but I'm sure If once I meet one of those I refute their arguments,I will shake his hand and give him a hug for greeting as we do in Egypt...I think that nowadays Bible is not 100% inspired but still have no hatred to neither Jews nor christians.

God does not forbid that you do good and make justice for those who do not fight you in the religion or drive you out from your homes. Indeed, God loves those who do justice. (Holy Quran Surah al-Mumtahana verses 8-9)

again welcome to the thread ,and wish you and others as well to be stuck to the thread topic ...
peace

 

[don532]

If the kingdom of Jesus is from another place(spritual),then it is necessarily requires that the kingdom of king David was spritual too !!!

I do not believe that to be the only conclusion possible, and I disagree. Christ on the throne of David is yet to come. The Davidic covenant did not say the rule would be constant, only that the lineage would be unbroken. Nowhere in Acts or, for that matter, in the entire Bible does one find the earthly throne of David and the heavenly throne, where Jesus is now, explicitly identified as ever being the same.

They are always distinct and different in Scripture. In the book of Acts, it is even more evident that Christ is not presently reigning on the throne of David. Luke opens Acts with Christ’s post-resurrection ministry to the disciples for forty days. During that time, Jesus spoke to them “of things pertaining to the Kingdom of God” (Acts 1:3). Surely, in all that time, if Jesus were to shortly reign on the throne of David in heaven, He would have plainly told them of this important change and transference of David’s throne from earth to heaven when they asked Him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the Kingdom to Israel?” (Acts 1:6). Christ did not reply, “You are mistaken about this Jewish misconception of an earthly throne and Kingdom in Israel. The throne of David has been transferred to the throne of God in heaven where I will ascend and shortly reign from.”

Instead, Jesus told the disciples that God the Father has appointed the time and season in the future when the Davidic Kingdom will be established in Israel (Acts 1:7). In the meantime, they were to go out and preach the Gospel in all the world, starting in Jerusalem (Acts 1:8). The Davidic rule and Kingdom did not begin when the Lord ascended to heaven, or He would have obviously told them so when questioned about the time and season for the establishment of the Kingdom in Israel. If Jesus is currently reigning on David’s throne in heaven, then Acts 15:16–18 contradicts this novel idea of Progressive Dispensationalism. The passage in Acts 15 deals with the issue of Gentile salvation and whether or not Gentiles must be circumcised and observe the Mosaic law to become Christians. James answers for the group at the Jerusalem Council by saying the calling out of Gentile believers is in keeping with the future promise of a Davidic Kingdom in Israel. Once the present age ends after the taking out of a Gentile body of believers “for His name” (a distinct characteristic and divine work of the present age), Christ will return to rebuild and restore “the tabernacle of David.” The phrase “Tabernacle of David” is a descriptive synonym of the Davidic throne and earthly Kingdom that has long been in ruins (Acts 15:16). It still remains this way during the present age and awaits the final restoration at the return of Christ to earth. If Christ were reigning on the throne of David in heaven at this time, why then did James say the Davidic monarchy was still in ruins? The only reasonable and clear answer is that Jesus has yet to return to earth to repair and rebuild it when He comes to reign on an earthly throne of David in Jerusalem, not heaven.

Clearly, in the book of Acts, the Jewish disciples, along with the Jewish Church of Jerusalem, were looking forward to a future, earthly, literal Davidic Messianic Kingdom in Israel to be ruled over by the Messiah Jesus. It was not spiritualized and transferred to heaven where Christ presently is.

Now there are progressive dispensationalists that believe Christ is on the throne of David now. I haven't personally seen enough scriptural support for that. But my mind could be changed if I'm shown to be wrong.

Here is a good representation of the Davidic covenant by Maranatha:

DOCTRINE OF THE DAVIDIC COVENANT
July 10, 1996

1. Preliminary considerations.
1. Scripture: 2Sam.7:12-16; cp. Ps.89:3,4,19-37.
2. Historical background.
1. David had established his authority over his enemies (2Sam.7:1).
2. He lived in a house of cedar and desired to build God a house (2Sam.7:2).
3. David was not permitted to build this house, but was promised a "house" that would endure forever (2Sam.7:11).
4. The prophet Nathan was informed of the details by a vision 2Sam.7:4; Ps.89:19).
3. Key terms defined.
1. "House" refers to the Davidic royal dynasty (2Sam.7:11,16).
2. "Seed", or "descendant", refers to the male heirs, beginning with Solomon and ending with Jesus Christ (2Sam.7:12; Ps.89:4a,29a,36a)."Covenant" refers to the binding contract between God and His servant, David (Ps.89:3a,28b,34a).
3. "Throne" refers to the right to rule over the kingdom defined by the land grant of the Abrahamic Covenant (2Sam.7:13,16; Ps.89:4b,29b,36b).
4. The Abrahamic Covenant is centered in "land" and "seed".
5. What the Covenant requires for fulfillment: it demands that a biological descendant of David occupy his throne forever.
2. Reasons why David was selected.
1. He was a member of the chosen people (Ps.89:19c) and of the tribe destined for royalty in Israel (Ps.78:68; cp. Gen.49:8-10; Pss.60:7; 76:1; 108:8).
2. He was in the line of Christ (Rom.1:3).
3. He was anointed king by the prophet Samuel to replace the renegade Saul (1Sam.16:13; Ps.89:20).
4. He was spiritually qualified to inherit such Ph2 blessing (2Sam.7:8,9; Ps.89:26).
5. And he was physically endowed to be a warrior-king (Pss.89:19b; 18:32-34).
3. Promises associated with the Covenant fulfilled in David's lifetime. David was promised:
1. An heir who would succeed him and who would build the Temple (2Sam.7:12,13).
2. Continued success over his enemies (Ps.89:21-23).
3. A great name among the peoples of the earth (2Sam.7:9).
4. An expanded kingdom according to the Abrahamic mandate (Ps.89:25; Ex.23:31; Deut.1:7,8; 11:24; 1Kgs.4:21,24).
5. Elevation to the highest rank of kings (Ps.89:27; cp. 2Sam.7:14).
4. The eternal provisions of the Covenant are centered in two spheres: "seed/descendants" and "throne" (Ps.89:3,4,28,29,35-37).
1. There is the promise that there will always be a Davidic descendant (Ps.89:4a; 2Sam.7:16).
2. There is the promise that the throne of David would last forever (Ps.89:4b; 2Sam.7:13).
5. The problem associated with the interrupted rule of the house of David.
1. The problem stated.
1. An uninterrupted succession of kings ruled over the house of David between 1010BC and 586BC.
2. But with the fall of the Southern Kingdom, the throne of David has remained unoccupied to this present day.
3. Furthermore, God placed a curse upon the line of descent through Solomon during the reign of Jehoiakin/Jeconiah/Coniah (Jer.22:30).
4. This curse means that no man in the David/Solomon line of descent could ever prosper as ruler over Israel, no matter how great he was spiritually.
5. Yet the promise to David was that the throne of his son Solomon would remain forever (2Sam.7:13,16).
6. Clearly, the promise does not require an uninterrupted succession of rulers, but it does require the throne to be established forever.
2. The solution.
1. The line of unbroken male descendants continued from the time of the Babylonian captivity to the birth of Christ (cp. Mt.1:12ff).
2. Because of the "Jeconiah curse", the individuals of this line could never occupy the throne of David.
3. So God established another unbroken line of descent from David through his son Nathan; this line links Jesus to David biologically; this line is Mary's genealogy (Lk.3:23ff).
4. The virgin birth enabled Jesus to side-step the Coniah curse and still retain the legal right to the throne since Joseph was His legal link to the throne, while Mary was His biological link to David.
5. Jesus Christ is, in every way, the legal heir to the throne of David.
6. He will re-establish David's throne in connection with His Second Coming (Act.15:16).
3. Conclusion: The Covenant did not guarantee uninterrupted rule by David's descendants, but did require that the right to rule would always remain with David's dynasty.
6. In the person of Jesus Christ, God established the Covenant.
1. The virgin birth enabled Jesus to be the physical descendant of David and not come under the "Jeconiah curse".
2. The resurrection of Christ eliminated the need for a continuation of the genealogy (since Jesus died childless), and provided the Covenant with an indestructible heir.
3. The doctrine of the Second Advent establishes the promise of an eternal throne for David occupied by his greater son, Jesus Christ (Lk.1:32,33).
7. The security of the Covenant.
1. It was not affected by the sins of the Davidic kings (2Sam.7:14,15; Ps.89:30-37).
2. It is seen in the repeated use of the term "forever" or its equivalent (Ps.89:4,28,29,36).
3. It was confirmed by a divine oath, thus giving the strongest possible assurance to its fulfillment (Pss.89:3,4,33; 132:11; 2Sam.7:13,16).
8. The Covenant demands literal fulfillment.
1. Portions of the Covenant fulfilled literally.
1. David had a son, who built the Temple, and who was disciplined for his sins (2Sam.7:12-15).
2. There is an unbroken line of descendants from David to Christ, thus fulfilling the "seed" promise (Matthew 1 and Luke 3).
3. Jesus Christ is a descendant of David according to the flesh (Act.2:29,30; Rom.1:3; 2Tim.2:8).
2. The Jews of Jesus' day expected literal fulfillment (cp. Mk.11:10; Jn.7:42).
3. David so understood that the Covenant was being fulfilled literally (2Sam.23:5).
4. Solomon, likewise, held this conviction (2Chr.6:14-17).
5. The unfulfilled portion has to do with the "throne" promise (2Sam.7:16).
1. Amillennialism (denial of the doctrine of the literal 1,000-year reign of Christ on earth) teaches that the throne in heaven is David's throne.
2. It is true that Jesus Christ is seated on His Father's throne in heaven in session (Heb.12:2); however, the throne of God in heaven and the throne of David are not one and the same.
3. God has promised through the prophets that the throne (political rule) of David would be restored after long centuries of non-existence at the Second coming of Christ (Lk.1:31-33; Act.15:14-17; cp. LXX of Amos.9:11,12).
4. The centuries since the fall of the kingdom of Judah and the dispersions of Israel have not rendered the promise void, even though it may appear to be the case (cp. Ps.89:38-49).
5. Whatever the changing form, temporary interruptions, or chastisements, the line of David will always retain the right to rule over Israel and will, in fact, exercise this privilege.
6. The right to rule will never be transferred to another family, and the Covenant's blessings are designed for eternal perpetuity (cp. Ps.89:34-36 "My covenant I will not violate, Nor will I alter the utterance of My lips. Once I have sworn by My holiness/integrity; I will not lie to David. His descendants shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before Me").
7. It is confirmed in such passages as Isa.9:6,7; Jer.23:5,6; 30:8,9; 33:14-17,20,21; Ezek.37:24,25; Dan.7:13,14; Hos.3:4,5; Amos.9:11; Zech.14:4-9.
8. David's throne was temporarily vacated due to the disobedience of his descendants, but the promise to rule forever stands because of the faithfulness of his greater Son, Jesus Christ.
9. Again, the only necessary feature of the Covenant is that the lineage is unbroken, not that the throne be occupiedcontinuously.
10. The kingdom on earth to be established by Christ be an eternal kingdom, since the "throne/house/kingdom" were all promised to David in perpetuity.
11. According to the established rules of interpretation (hermenuetics), the unfulfilled "throne" promise must be fulfilled literally, as were the fulfilled portions (as is the case with the "seed" promise).

 

[back_to_faith]

I do not believe that to be the only conclusion possible, and I disagree. Christ on the throne of David is yet to come. :

Greetings,

Well, thank you very much for posting the (DOCTRINE OF THE DAVIDIC COVENANT by Maranatha) which shot your first(spritual kingdom)argument in the foot....
Let's see How he affirms that the "throne" part could only be fulfilled literally. and show you where he failed to find solution to this problem:

He stated that (according to the OT):

1- "Throne" refers to the right to rule over the kingdom defined by the land grant of the Abrahamic Covenant (2Sam.7:13,16; Ps.89:4b,29b,36b).

we agree

2-. What the Covenant requires for fulfillment: it demands that a biological descendant of David occupy his throne forever.

Again we agree

3-But with the fall of the Southern Kingdom, the throne of David has remained unoccupied to this present day.
sure

4- Jesus Christ is a descendant of David according to the flesh (Act.2:29,30; Rom.1:3; 2Tim.2:8).

here we disagree ..............

A) The basic requirement that the Messiah was to be the physical offspring of David is not met because Jesus had no biological father,He claims that the genealogy of Jesus presented the Luke gospel traces Jesus through his mother Mary. However, there is absolutely nothing in the Luke genealogy that mentions even the name MARY.There is not one word about her in any way.Mary's name never appears anywhere in the list. The list begins as follows:

Luke 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli

Jesus was the "supposed" son of Joseph because of the virgin birth. It was generally thought by the public that Jesus was the biological son of Joseph and according to Luke, Joseph was the son of Heli.The only way to insert Mary into any of this is to claim that Heli was really the father of Mary and that Heli was the father-in-law of Joseph. Does the text say that Heli was the father of Mary? No, it does not.
The text clearly states that Joseph was the son of Heli, not his son-in-law.
When the Bible wishes to express an in-law relationship, it is clearly expressed.

For example:

1 Sam 18:18,22 And David said unto Saul, Who am I? and what is my life, or my father's family in Israel, that I should be son in law to the king?
And Saul commanded his servants, saying, Commune with David secretly, and say, Behold, the king hath delight in thee, and all his servants love thee: now therefore be the king's son in law.

B) women cannot pass kingships or bloodlines in the Bible. Genealogies are exclusively male as shown in Num 1:2,18 . Women simply didn't count when it came to establishing a bloodline for a kingship.

There is not one genealogy in the Bible that is about a woman nor any instance where a king inherits rights to a throne via his mother. A woman could not pass on what she could never possess herself.

C) there is not one single verse in the entire Bible which establishes that Mary was even from the House of David. Mary was the cousin of Elizabeth who was a Levite(Luke 1:5,36). That is the only scriptural reference to what tribal identity Mary was connected to.


D) There is no evidence that Paul was aware of a virgin birth that the later author of Matthew claimed was the origin of Jesus, Paul thought that Jesus was descended from David that is why he said: Rom 1:3, Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;



5-the writer claimed (The virgin birth enabled Jesus to side-step the Coniah curse and still retain the legal right to the throne since Joseph was His legal link to the throne)

In other words,
He wants adoption to count or be valid if it can serve to connect Jesus to the rights to sit on the throne but he doesn't want adoption to count or be valid when it comes to inheriting the effects of the curse on Jeconiah's offspring which would nullify any claim for Jesus to sit on the throne.
What a desperate ,dishonest attempt to supply Jesus with legitimate credentials to sit on the throne of David!!!!

from http://www.geocities.com/b_r_a_d_99/genealogy.htm

detailed ,excellent page on the genealogy problem..

http://www.messiahtruth.com/genealogy.html

6-.According to the established rules of interpretation (hermenuetics), the unfulfilled "throne" promise must be fulfilled literally, as were the fulfilled portions.

great to know that the "throne" promise is unfulfilled till this moment .....

Let's see How he tried to solve the dilemma:

3. God has promised through the prophets that the throne (political rule) of David would be restored after long centuries of non-existence at the Second coming of Christ (Lk.1:31-33; Act.15:14-17; ).

Ahhhh ,there we go to the old christian straw, that the arrival of Jesus did not usher in that which was predicted and his credentials seem tarnished, but another appearance will rectify the situation. What wasn't fulfilled the first time will be completed during his second time around.
they usually quote the NT as (Lk.1:31-33; Act.15:14-17; ). ,while the relevant proof text has to be Old Testament proof text .......The obvious flaw in this transparent subterfuge is that there is absolutely nothing in the OT alluding to an alleged "Second Coming." As far as the OT is concerned, there is one messiah and that's all, and he is coming once and that's it. We would challenge any Christian to provide so much as one scintilla of OT prophetic commentary to the effect that the messiah would come twice. (The Encyclopedia of Biblical Errancy)

In sum and substance,
Now, it is the case of everybody on earth to consider as to by what trick of interpretation one could apply Isaiah 9:6 prophecy Jesus.

peace to all