Hostage-Taking - Is this Terrorism or a Legitimate Operation?

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Taking innocent people hostage is also a crime.

Freedom fighters attacking military targets in a war is not a crime. Well, it probably would be against the law of that country, but it's not morally reprehensible to fight a tyrant.

And I can understand why people do what they do, but understanding is not always approval.
 
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f I remember right, you started out praising a “School Children Killer”.

No , i have never praised the Russians who - as many Beslan mothers themselves say -were the ones that killed the people

Yes, i praise Shamil Basayev for his 15 year military career against Russian forces and for leading the Chechen people to freedom and for defeating the genocidal Russian army in Chechnya

No, i dont agree with he did in Beslan and i have said that many times here

So your statement was incorrect and i am now tempted to call you a liar.

When I say I do not supporting hostage-taking, I mean I do not support hostage-taking.

So you think the Chechen people should have continued to be massacred and raped - yes?

I think your true colours are finally coming out...

But since you support hostage-taking, I would assume that you would find it ok to rape, torture and murder hostages whose only crime is being Russian.

Your assumption is incorrect - i dont think people raped or murder for being Russian

I do think the Russian people should take more responisibility over what the people they voted into power do in Chechnya and the North Caucaus
 
You are saying that if a person came into your house, raped your mother, daughters and killed them later on, will you not go mad?
No he is justifying making hostages of people that had nothing to do with raping your mother.
IE Collective Punishment.
You are Russian, therefore you are guilty and deserve punishment.
 
Hostage taking is usually about negotiations, and exchange not about raping women.. the only women thus far who have been raped and murdered were the chechnyans, or other Muslim women else where, Iraq, Palestine, not the Russians, not the Americans not the British!...

One country's terrorist is another country's freedom fighter... I don't understand the mentality, that some are superior to others, their feelings and families some how account for more?... I just saw a news brief about that British woman that was taken hostage in Iran, as she reunited wither her daughter... Quite a moving human story... But it isn't human one it comes to one poor Iraqi woman who lost three of her sons one of them tied to an American tank, they sped by her, her son skinned before her very eyes, that it should even merit a mention-- G-D forbid this should echo any sort of sentiment. And your SOB of a president just with his same song and dance --911, terrorists, 911, terrorists... it is almost like a daily prayer, that he and his fellow Masonic Zionists orchestrated to puppeteer the rest of you! Wake up Americans!
 
No he is justifying making hostages of people that had nothing to do with raping your mother.
IE Collective Punishment.
You are Russian, therefore you are guilty and deserve punishment.
Exactly.

It's like, if a black guy attacked a white guy for no reason, I could understand why the white guy might suddenly become a racist serial killer - but it doesn't make his actions right, and he'd still belong behind bars.
 
Freedom fighters attacking military targets in a war is not a crime. Well, it probably would be against the law of that country, but it's not morally reprehensible to fight a tyrant.

The freedom fighters who took these people hostage had fought military targets for a long time - so thats not an accusation that can be levelled against them - and they even offered on many occasions to observe international law - so as to stop the murder and rape of their people through more "civlised" means.

When this didnt work, they tried a more brutal method and that did work and they became heroes
 
I think your true colours are finally coming out...
Only in your mind. Everyone else knows you are just twisting words.
Yes, i praise Shamil Basayev
As I said you praise a "School Children Killer". I think that shows your true colours and I don't even have to twist your words.
i dont think people raped or murder for being Russian
But it is ok to take them hostage.
You have made your point.

I will no longer participate in your justification of hate and terrorism.
But if you don't learn to control your hate, it will control you.
 
As I said you praise a "School Children Killer". I think that shows your true colours and I don't even have to twist your words.

I see you didnt quote my full quote - esp the bit where i mentioned specifically what he had done for Chechnya - nor the bit where i said i have never agreed with what he did in Beslan - and YOU accuse ME of twisting words looool :D :D

You would do Fox news proud :thumbs_up

Only in your mind. Everyone else knows you are just twisting words.

Your words spoke for themselves and people reading this thread will see themselves what you have said or what you have left unsaid...

But it is ok to take them hostage.
You have made your point.

I will no longer participate in your justification of hate and terrorism.
But if you don't learn to control your hate, it will control you.

Running away from questions you find difficult isnt the answer - i asked a simple question and from your answers i have percieved how low you hold the life and honour of our brothers and sisters in Chechnya

Throwing around words like "hate and "terrorism" in order to extract yourself from talking about this is a bit childish - but each to his own, i suppose.
 
Exactly.

It's like, if a black guy attacked a white guy for no reason, I could understand why the white guy might suddenly become a racist serial killer - but it doesn't make his actions right, and he'd still belong behind bars.

OR

Muslim extremists committing a terrorist attack in a certain country then all of a sudden that country starts targeting muslims in retaliation to their terrorist attack :)
 
OR

Muslim extremists committing a terrorist attack in a certain country then all of a sudden that country starts targeting muslims in retaliation to their terrorist attack :)
Yes, and I criticise that, too.
 
The hostage-takers issued an ultimatum threatening to kill the hostages unless their demands, including an end to the Chechen war and beginning of direct negotiations with Chechen rebel leadership, were met. Russian President Boris Yeltsin immediately vowed to do everything possible to free the hostages, denouncing the attack as "unprecedented in cynicism and cruelty."

On June 15, Basayev demanded that journalists be let into the hospital building to conduct a press conference, but when Basayev found the Russian authorities to be too slow in granting his request, he ordered six hostages killed (three helicopter pilots, two police officers and an official of military registration and enlistment office). Only after this journalists were passed into the hospital. Fearing for their lives, the hospital staff helped other policemen and pilots disguise themselves in civilian clothes and to appear committed to the hospital by changing the hospital records.

Chechen commanders enforced firm discipline among their men and reported to hostages that they will strictly punish subordinates for the least attempt at any violence. A member of Chechen force who was found to be threatening the hostages while under influence of narcotics was immediately shot. The Russians attempted various tactics to break the standoff, from threatening to execute 2,000 Chechen civilians to using Basayev's brother to talk him out of it.
After several days of siege, the Russian MVD and FSB OSNAZ special forces tried to storm the hospital compound at dawn on the fourth day, meeting fierce resistance. A woman connected to artificial respiration apparatus died during the assault when the electricity to the hospital was disconnected. After many hours of fighting wherein more than 30 hostages were killed, unable to avoid the grenades the Russians were throwing in through the shot-out windows, a ceasefire was agreed on and 227 hostages were released.

A second Russian attempt to take control of the hospital few hours later also failed, resulting in more casualties. Russian authorities accused the Chechens of using the hostages as human shields
On June 18, negotiations between Russian Prime Minister Viktor Chernomyrdin and Shamil Basayev led to a compromise which became a turning point for the First Chechen War. In exchange for the hostages, the Russian government agreed to temporarily halt military actions in Chechnya and begin a series of negotiations.

The just-released hostages were especially angered by Boris Yeltsin's order to use force against the terrorists. Yeltsin meanwhile had gone to Halifax, Nova Scotia, where the summit of the Group of Seven was being held. After meeting with Yeltsin, the seven condemned violence on both sides of the Chechen conflict.

On June 19, most of the hostages were released, and Basayev's group, under cover of 120 volunteer hostages (including 16 journalists and 9 State Duma deputies), departed for, and uneventfully reached, the Chechen village of Zandak near Chechnya's border with Dagestan. After these hostages were released, Basayev, accompanied by some of the journalists, moved to village of Dargo, where he was welcomed as a hero.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budyonnovsk_hospital_hostage_crisis

It was done for a good cause and if Budyonnovsk didn't happen thousands more of Chechen civilians would have died. And notice how the Russians storm the building, kill a bunch of people and then accuse the Chechens like always, and the worst part is that everyone believes them and nobody will listen to the Chechens when they say that they're not the ones to be blamed because people rather hear what they want to believe and refuse to to even open their eyes and see the truth because they think Chechens and all muslims are terrorists and it just has to stay that way.
 
The hostage-takers issued an ultimatum threatening to kill the hostages unless their demands, including an end to the Chechen war and beginning of direct negotiations with Chechen rebel leadership, were met. Russian President Boris Yeltsin immediately vowed to do everything possible to free the hostages, denouncing the attack as "unprecedented in cynicism and cruelty."

On June 15, Basayev demanded that journalists be let into the hospital building to conduct a press conference, but when Basayev found the Russian authorities to be too slow in granting his request, he ordered six hostages killed (three helicopter pilots, two police officers and an official of military registration and enlistment office). Only after this journalists were passed into the hospital. Fearing for their lives, the hospital staff helped other policemen and pilots disguise themselves in civilian clothes and to appear committed to the hospital by changing the hospital records.

Chechen commanders enforced firm discipline among their men and reported to hostages that they will strictly punish subordinates for the least attempt at any violence. A member of Chechen force who was found to be threatening the hostages while under influence of narcotics was immediately shot. The Russians attempted various tactics to break the standoff, from threatening to execute 2,000 Chechen civilians to using Basayev's brother to talk him out of it.
After several days of siege, the Russian MVD and FSB OSNAZ special forces tried to storm the hospital compound at dawn on the fourth day, meeting fierce resistance. A woman connected to artificial respiration apparatus died during the assault when the electricity to the hospital was disconnected. After many hours of fighting wherein more than 30 hostages were killed, unable to avoid the grenades the Russians were throwing in through the shot-out windows, a ceasefire was agreed on and 227 hostages were released.

A second Russian attempt to take control of the hospital few hours later also failed, resulting in more casualties. Russian authorities accused the Chechens of using the hostages as human shields
On June 18, negotiations between Russian Prime Minister Viktor Chernomyrdin and Shamil Basayev led to a compromise which became a turning point for the First Chechen War. In exchange for the hostages, the Russian government agreed to temporarily halt military actions in Chechnya and begin a series of negotiations.

The just-released hostages were especially angered by Boris Yeltsin's order to use force against the terrorists. Yeltsin meanwhile had gone to Halifax, Nova Scotia, where the summit of the Group of Seven was being held. After meeting with Yeltsin, the seven condemned violence on both sides of the Chechen conflict.

On June 19, most of the hostages were released, and Basayev's group, under cover of 120 volunteer hostages (including 16 journalists and 9 State Duma deputies), departed for, and uneventfully reached, the Chechen village of Zandak near Chechnya's border with Dagestan. After these hostages were released, Basayev, accompanied by some of the journalists, moved to village of Dargo, where he was welcomed as a hero.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budyonnovsk_hospital_hostage_crisis

It was done for a good cause and if Budyonnovsk didn't happen thousands more of Chechen civilians would have died. And notice how the Russians storm the building, kill a bunch of people and then accuse the Chechens like always, and the worst part is that everyone believes them and nobody will listen to the Chechens when they say that they're not the ones to be blamed because people rather hear what they want to believe and refuse to to even open their eyes and see the truth because they think Chechens and all muslims are terrorists and it just has to stay that way.

Wait a minute. are you seriously claiming that the Russians are responsible for the loss of life among hostages because they tried to rescue them (however inept the attempt)? That is preposterous.

The Chechens have a legitimate historical grievance against the Russians but this is not the way to do it. This was unequivocally a terrorist act. I suppose you would have us believe the Beslan school massacre was a courageous act of defence? When I heard about Beslan I had to stop for several minutes and deal with my heartache for those poor children. In terms of willful inhumanity it was worse than 9-11. Absolutely shocking.


Would you support the SS killing French villagers because of the actions of the resistence?
 
Wait a minute. are you seriously claiming that the Russians are responsible for the loss of life among hostages because they tried to rescue them (however inept the attempt)? That is preposterous.

The Chechens have a legitimate historical grievance against the Russians but this is not the way to do it. This was unequivocally a terrorist act. I suppose you would have us believe the Beslan school massacre was a courageous act of defence? When I heard about Beslan I had to stop for several minutes and deal with my heartache for those poor children. In terms of willful inhumanity it was worse than 9-11. Absolutely shocking.


Would you support the SS killing French villagers because of the actions of the resistence?

LOL throwing hand grenades into the building is how the Russians rescue hostages?? And sadly, Budynnovsk was the only way to stop the war. Trust me I would have been happy if there was another way to end it but there wasn't because Chechens were being slaughtered by hundreds everyday and the international community just closed their eyes on that so the rebels had no other way, it's the Russians that put them in that position. And it's funny how suddenly when 300 Russian children die people have "terrible headaches" and are so shocked while in Chechnya Beslan is happening everyday but nobody cares. Is it because Chechen lives aren't worth anything? Are you racist?
The Chechens didn't kill any civilians, it's the Russians who did when storming the building. All the Chechens asked for was to stop the massacre of women and children and the Russian leaders not only just refused to talk to them but threatened to kill more Chechen civilians. The Russian people shouldn't be running after Chechens but they should question themselves about their leaders who kill, rape and torture women and children and don't absolutely care bout their own people either.
 
LOL throwing hand grenades into the building is how the Russians rescue hostages?? And sadly, Budynnovsk was the only way to stop the war. Trust me I would have been happy if there was another way to end it but there wasn't because Chechens were being slaughtered by hundreds everyday and the international community just closed their eyes on that so the rebels had no other way, it's the Russians that put them in that position. And it's funny how suddenly when 300 Russian children die people have "terrible headaches" and are so shocked while in Chechnya Beslan is happening everyday but nobody cares. Is it because Chechen lives aren't worth anything? Are you racist?
The Chechens didn't kill any civilians, it's the Russians who did when storming the building. All the Chechens asked for was to stop the massacre of women and children and the Russian leaders not only just refused to talk to them but threatened to kill more Chechen civilians. The Russian people shouldn't be running after Chechens but they should question themselves about their leaders who kill, rape and torture women and children and don't absolutely care bout their own people either.

To me civilians should be at the very most a casualty of war. Casualty meaning, being in the wrong place at the wrong time and accidently being killed. I respect the Chechens, I think they have a valid right to their war with Russia and I support them in their fight for their land. However, by killing innocent people it furthers their cause none and makes them look no better than those they are fighting and the ideology they are fighting against. The second they took these hostages was a mistake, taking hostages and using them for ransom of any kind is criminal, and it definitely served in the interest of their enemy by presenting themselves as people who do not care for human life, murderers.

Now as far as hostage taking goes in war, I believe it is OK. I believe if a soldiers is captured, he can and should be used as collateral or to obtain an objective. Killing a captive on the other hand is senseless, and makes the captors look like the bad guys. Take Nick Berg for example, a civilian taken hostage and gruesomely beheaded. How is that an act of war? What does that show to the world? That you can kill someone without conscience, to me it gave insight to just exactly why we are in Iraq, not a reason to leave. Hostages are perfectly OK in war as long as they are taken and used in the proper manner, the minute civilians are involved or killing takes place it is no longer a hostage situation. Hostages are not taken to be killed, otherwise why not just kill them on the battlefield?
 
To me civilians should be at the very most a casualty of war. Casualty meaning, being in the wrong place at the wrong time and accidently being killed. I respect the Chechens, I think they have a valid right to their war with Russia and I support them in their fight for their land. However, by killing innocent people it furthers their cause none and makes them look no better than those they are fighting and the ideology they are fighting against. The second they took these hostages was a mistake, taking hostages and using them for ransom of any kind is criminal, and it definitely served in the interest of their enemy by presenting themselves as people who do not care for human life, murderers.

Now as far as hostage taking goes in war, I believe it is OK. I believe if a soldiers is captured, he can and should be used as collateral or to obtain an objective. Killing a captive on the other hand is senseless, and makes the captors look like the bad guys. Take Nick Berg for example, a civilian taken hostage and gruesomely beheaded. How is that an act of war? What does that show to the world? That you can kill someone without conscience, to me it gave insight to just exactly why we are in Iraq, not a reason to leave. Hostages are perfectly OK in war as long as they are taken and used in the proper manner, the minute civilians are involved or killing takes place it is no longer a hostage situation. Hostages are not taken to be killed, otherwise why not just kill them on the battlefield?

I understand what you say and it seems correct to me. I never said I support hostage taking of civilians or anything I just said that in this particular situation the Chechens had no other choice. I understand if the Chechens took those people hostage and asked for money as ransom or something but that's not what they asked for, they just asked for the genocide to be stopped. They didn't do it for themselves they did it to save their countrymen and they've saved thousands of lives by doing that. I agree that from one side it's just wrong but if you look on the other hand they saved a lot of women and children by doing what they did. I mean we could sit here and keep saying yeah this and that but you have to realise that they didn't do it because they wanted to, I'm sure they didn't take pleasure in doing that but they saved thousands of human lives.
 
LOL throwing hand grenades into the building is how the Russians rescue hostages?? And sadly, Budynnovsk was the only way to stop the war. Trust me I would have been happy if there was another way to end it but there wasn't because Chechens were being slaughtered by hundreds everyday and the international community just closed their eyes on that so the rebels had no other way, it's the Russians that put them in that position. And it's funny how suddenly when 300 Russian children die people have "terrible headaches" and are so shocked while in Chechnya Beslan is happening everyday but nobody cares. Is it because Chechen lives aren't worth anything? Are you racist?
The Chechens didn't kill any civilians, it's the Russians who did when storming the building. All the Chechens asked for was to stop the massacre of women and children and the Russian leaders not only just refused to talk to them but threatened to kill more Chechen civilians. The Russian people shouldn't be running after Chechens but they should question themselves about their leaders who kill, rape and torture women and children and don't absolutely care bout their own people either.

Your hatred of the Russians has caused you to suspend all moral reasoning (if you ever possessed it). I can't believe you can dispense with the slaughter of 300 children willfully terrorized for hours and hours as "funny". You are seriously messed up, dude.

You aren't going to see me supporting Russian behavior but, really what do you expect me to do about it? What do you expect the US to do about it? The US defeated the Soviet Union which was the greatest historical tormenter of Muslim poeples of the 20th Century. A lot of bloody thanks we got for it too. The US protected the Bosnian Muslims and the Muslims of Kosovo. Do you want us to invade Russian now? Where was the rest of the Muslim world when Stalin was murdering and deporting whole Muslim populations? Fight your own war and quit whining. Don't ask me to support the murder of 300 helpless children because you are all hyped up from propaganda videos.

BTW....can the racism charge bud.
 
Your hatred of the Russians has caused you to suspend all moral reasoning (if you ever possessed it). I can't believe you can dispense with the slaughter of 300 children willfully terrorized for hours and hours as "funny". You are seriously messed up, dude.

You aren't going to see me supporting Russian behavior but, really what do you expect me to do about it? What do you expect the US to do about it? The US defeated the Soviet Union which was the greatest historical tormenter of Muslim poeples of the 20th Century. A lot of bloody thanks we got for it too. The US protected the Bosnian Muslims and the Muslims of Kosovo. Do you want us to invade Russian now? Where was the rest of the Muslim world when Stalin was murdering and deporting whole Muslim populations? Fight your own war and quit whining. Don't ask me to support the murder of 300 helpless children because you are all hyped up from propaganda videos.

BTW....can the racism charge bud.


...When did I say the death of 300 children is funny? I feel sorry that those children got killed by their own people with no mercy. And when did I say I expect America to help us? I don't want America to come to Chechnya and then install their own puppet regime. I just want America and Europe to stop helping Russia in their genocide against the Chechen people. I think it's the muslim ummah that should be helping us.
 
...When did I say the death of 300 children is funny? I feel sorry that those children got killed by their own people with no mercy. And when did I say I expect America to help us? I don't want America to come to Chechnya and then install their own puppet regime. I just want America and Europe to stop helping Russia in their genocide against the Chechen people. I think it's the muslim ummah that should be helping us.

Exactly how is the US supporting Russian actions in Chechnya?
 
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Exactly how is the US supporting Russian actions in Chechnya?


Well military aid for example. Like president Dudayev's death happened because of the Americans, they gave the Russians his location by using their satellites and the Russians threw a bomb on him and killed him. The Americans helped the Russians kill the leader of the Chechen people when they had absolutely nothing to do with it.
 
After months of having thousands of women and children being killed , tortured and raped - a group of fighters storm a hospital , take over a thousand hostages and threaten to blow it up if the war isnt stopped.

They get what they want from the hostage-taking which is a ceasefire and use it as a platform to end the brutal war a few months later.

Is the hostage-taking an act of terrorism??? Or a legitimate operation to end the murder of their people?

Keeping in mind that before the hostage-taking tens of thousands of women and children had been killed and raped - the hostage-taking stopped this mass-murder.

Before the hostage-taking a brutal war against a whole nation was happening - the hostage-taking stopped this too.

What do you think?

(I am referring to this one particular hostage-taking incident in the Russian town of Buddenyvosk)
your question makes sense in an abstract, theoretical sense - relating to this specific case - the result in innocent lives saved was a positive one.
what would your question have been if it had not worked, and instead the russians murdered even more chechens?
would you then condemn hostage taking? there was no guarantee that it would result in an overall saving of life.
i think it is wrong when innocent people are killed or terrorized - i don't care if it's done by governments or resistance fighters.
this case was apparently an unusual instance of violence (the taking of hostages, even if they were not harmed, is an act of violence) achieved a positive result.
Since you dont support this hostage-taking, is it fair to assume both of you wanted the rape, torture and murder of tens of thousands of Chechen men, women and children to continue?
this is one of those "either/or" questions that to my mind, are invalid.
do you really believe that hostage taking in general, is an effective method for bringing an end to violence? i don't think the record shows that at all.
 
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