very true, many creation stories storyies have been around before we (scientist) found them. I think this way cool. If man can dream it ... God has probably done it already.
AB
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very true, many creation stories storyies have been around before we (scientist) found them. I think this way cool. If man can dream it ... God has probably done it already.
AB
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If you were to ask me do you believe in evolution and that we share a common accentor with apes?
No certainly not, especially the Darwin’s theory, because it has not been conclusively proven beyond doubt and there is no irrefutable evidence but there is evidence contrary to it.
We have already discussed the problem of your with proof.
You see majority of believers of Darwin
Just for clarification everyone believes in Darwin, we have evidence that he was born and that he lived and that he died. We even have photos of um.. wait your talking about evolution.. Doh...
Well I should hope you know that the evolutionary theory has changed since darwins time. So has the field of astronomy since Galileos time.
are atheists
Nope as I and others have pointed out before this is not true.
and the problem with atheists is that by denying the existence of god
A slight sematic error here but thats semantics.
vehemently and solely depending on science to provide the answers, they have shrunk the boundaries of their reasoning and I don’t blame them for it, since the world is full of false gods and beliefs and any rational and logical thinking mind would reject them but by doing so they have also rejected the one and only true god (Allah) (Read my post on how logically and rationally only Allah is the creator of the universe)
Well at least you realize that atheists in general use logic
Atheists are always in revision mode because as new evidence uncovers they have to change their position.
And correcting or adjusting theories and knowledge as you learn more is bad?
Since they deny god even if rationally and logically argued they reject it without giving a second thought (at least most of them as far as I know)
I imagine for most atheists they have not had it logically argued nor has any evidence been presented.
and they cannot forward any alternative explanation or theory as to our origin
Of course other theories have been presented. Heck the theory of evo has been adjusted itself from its original form as new info was aquired.
hence they hang on to the coffin of Darwin, they have no alternative but to present the Darwin’s theory as fact which is miles away from the truth.
Evolution has been observed and in that it is fact, how it occurs is the theory. Same with gravity, it has been observed but how it occurs is the theory.
Why we should oppose Darwin? Becuase he was an old bitter man? Oh wait your talking about evo again...
Because it is not fully established and Darwin proposed ideas which are raciest and destructive to the human society.And nuclear fussion is bad because it allows atomic bombs. science doesnt care about racism or good or bad it deals with theories. Right now your trying to discredit evo because you think bad things come from it. Bad argument. it doesnt matter if racists use evo incorrectly to justify their views, evo is not a racists theory and those that use it for that are simply incorrect.
Darwin and his cousin Francis Galton influenced Hitler and as we know he was responsible for the killings of millions of innocent Jews
Title: Research papper on: The Nazi race policies were influenced by Darwin's theory and publications.
.......http://www.cheathouse.com/essay/essay_view.php?p_essay_id=7207
Did you know that Hitler was also a christian and human and he could read ect..... etc.... etc...
... Benito Mussolini ..... Karl Marx. .......
“The combination of social Darwinism...http://en.epochtimes.com/news/6-1-9/36682.html.
Social darwinsim is completely different from actual evolution or what you call darwinism.
....
As you can see Darwin’s ideas resulted in untold miseries for millions of peoples
So did the invention of fire and the wheel and the theory of gravity. It doesnt make them wrong.
One may argue that there were other people also who were responsible for such atrocities.
True but the above fact remains.
That evolution has been observed and that the theory tries to explain how it works.
Also Darwin’s theory encourages atheism, which causes social and moral problems in the society.(I will not go in detail here, it will make the post to long and off tangent)
No it doesnt, the belief that darwin existed doesnt encoura..... doh you mean evo dont you. Well the belief in evolution does not encourage atheism since the majority of evolutionary scientists are theists.
And you can make another thread on the social and moral problems of atheism if you want.
There are gaps, holes, and craters in Darwin’s theory
Wow who would have thought. ditto what Pygoscelis said.
By stating that our forefathers were apes they have degraded the status of human beings To that of an animals.
and what problems do you have with apes and animals? Oh by the way biologically we are apes and animals.
...
Out of millions of creatures on earth humans singularly stand out from the rest of the creatures.
Wow, i didnt know that we could hold our breath longer than whales, or kill a tiger bare handed, or breath under water, or live under immense pressure, or live under very low pressure, or.... etc.. etc...
We humans have logical and rational thinking we are the most versatile and ingenious,
We have the most complex social and emotional behavior; we have the power of reasoning.
Assuming that you are right, so what? You have only chosen what we have been best suited for, other animals are likewise also better suited for their enviroment. Nothing special about us, we are just adapted to our enviroment.
Many scientists tried to teach apes some sort of communication skill so that they can interact with humans at human level but they have failed miserably.
Ditto what Pygoscelis said. Other apes have been taught sign language.
....
If evolution is true than why out of millions of creatures and after millions of years Only Human beings are such highly developed,
We are not the only "highly developed", pretty much every creature is highly developed for their nitch.
.....
Evolution does not take place, at least not the way Darwin states
true because evolution of today is not the same as the evolution of darwins day and age.
Even after millions of years we human still have 5 basic senses, we have not developed super brains, what we humans have done is used our power of reasoning and logical thinking and rational mind to expand our knowledge base to extraordinary level
As a result of which we have become highly advanced in so many fields today.
Ditto what Pygoscelis said.
The proponents of Darwin’s theory have themselves become the master of Darwin today And the universe... .... He-Man....
They refuse to accept the futility of Darwin’s theory in explaining the origin of man
yes they dont think its futile to explain and thus they keep on learning..
Simply because they have no other alternative except to confirm the existence of god. Evo does not equal atheism.
Therefore they hang on to any flimsy evidence provided to them.
nope. as a matter of fact an of those hoaxs you hear about were likely disproven by evolutionary scientists.
...
You see Darwin himself was in doubt about his theory and was open to the idea that his theory will collapse.
Wow he gave ways to falsify evo.. no way that would happen in science... Of course you still dont understand that evo of today is not the same as it was in darwins time, it has been adjusted as new info has come in.
If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous successive slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down (Darwin, 1859, p. 219).
And this would be a falsification criteria. And guess what...
“Living fossil is the nickname given to organisms whose traces appear in the fossil layers from early geological periods, of which living specimens are still found today. These living things exhibit no differences from their counterparts from millions of years ago, and represent living examples of those long-dead fossil forms.”
and evo allows for their to be living fossils.
“The Cœlacanth, ......”See above.
“The catching of a live specimen of Cœlacanth did away with one of the greatest fake foundations of the theory of evolution.”
false, see above.
The Horseshoe Crab ......”
see above.
The Cockroach....”
see above...
Darwin himself would have collapsed let alone his theory if he were presented such evidence!!!!!
Nope, as stated, the theory of evo allows for living fossils, a species does not need to die out inorder for it to evolve. It will often split into more forms as new nitches are presented. If one finds its current nitch perfect then you wont likely see a change, If a variation of it finds a nother nitch its better suited for then it will take over that nitch.
No certainly not, especially the Darwin’s theory, because it has not been conclusively proven beyond doubt and there is no irrefutable evidence but there is evidence contrary to it.
We have already discussed the problem of your with proof.
You see majority of believers of Darwin
Just for clarification everyone believes in Darwin, we have evidence that he was born and that he lived and that he died. We even have photos of um.. wait your talking about evolution.. Doh...
Well I should hope you know that the evolutionary theory has changed since darwins time. So has the field of astronomy since Galileos time.
are atheists
Nope as I and others have pointed out before this is not true.
and the problem with atheists is that by denying the existence of god
A slight sematic error here but thats semantics.
vehemently and solely depending on science to provide the answers, they have shrunk the boundaries of their reasoning and I don’t blame them for it, since the world is full of false gods and beliefs and any rational and logical thinking mind would reject them but by doing so they have also rejected the one and only true god (Allah) (Read my post on how logically and rationally only Allah is the creator of the universe)
Well at least you realize that atheists in general use logic
Atheists are always in revision mode because as new evidence uncovers they have to change their position.
And correcting or adjusting theories and knowledge as you learn more is bad?
Since they deny god even if rationally and logically argued they reject it without giving a second thought (at least most of them as far as I know)
I imagine for most atheists they have not had it logically argued nor has any evidence been presented.
and they cannot forward any alternative explanation or theory as to our origin
Of course other theories have been presented. Heck the theory of evo has been adjusted itself from its original form as new info was aquired.
hence they hang on to the coffin of Darwin, they have no alternative but to present the Darwin’s theory as fact which is miles away from the truth.
Evolution has been observed and in that it is fact, how it occurs is the theory. Same with gravity, it has been observed but how it occurs is the theory.
Why we should oppose Darwin? Becuase he was an old bitter man? Oh wait your talking about evo again...
Because it is not fully established and Darwin proposed ideas which are raciest and destructive to the human society.And nuclear fussion is bad because it allows atomic bombs. science doesnt care about racism or good or bad it deals with theories. Right now your trying to discredit evo because you think bad things come from it. Bad argument. it doesnt matter if racists use evo incorrectly to justify their views, evo is not a racists theory and those that use it for that are simply incorrect.
Darwin and his cousin Francis Galton influenced Hitler and as we know he was responsible for the killings of millions of innocent Jews
Title: Research papper on: The Nazi race policies were influenced by Darwin's theory and publications.
.......http://www.cheathouse.com/essay/essay_view.php?p_essay_id=7207
Did you know that Hitler was also a christian and human and he could read ect..... etc.... etc...
... Benito Mussolini ..... Karl Marx. .......
“The combination of social Darwinism...http://en.epochtimes.com/news/6-1-9/36682.html.
Social darwinsim is completely different from actual evolution or what you call darwinism.
....
As you can see Darwin’s ideas resulted in untold miseries for millions of peoples
So did the invention of fire and the wheel and the theory of gravity. It doesnt make them wrong.
One may argue that there were other people also who were responsible for such atrocities.
True but the above fact remains.
That evolution has been observed and that the theory tries to explain how it works.
Also Darwin’s theory encourages atheism, which causes social and moral problems in the society.(I will not go in detail here, it will make the post to long and off tangent)
No it doesnt, the belief that darwin existed doesnt encoura..... doh you mean evo dont you. Well the belief in evolution does not encourage atheism since the majority of evolutionary scientists are theists.
And you can make another thread on the social and moral problems of atheism if you want.
There are gaps, holes, and craters in Darwin’s theory
Wow who would have thought. ditto what Pygoscelis said.
By stating that our forefathers were apes they have degraded the status of human beings To that of an animals.
and what problems do you have with apes and animals? Oh by the way biologically we are apes and animals.
...
Out of millions of creatures on earth humans singularly stand out from the rest of the creatures.
Wow, i didnt know that we could hold our breath longer than whales, or kill a tiger bare handed, or breath under water, or live under immense pressure, or live under very low pressure, or.... etc.. etc...
We humans have logical and rational thinking we are the most versatile and ingenious,
We have the most complex social and emotional behavior; we have the power of reasoning.
Assuming that you are right, so what? You have only chosen what we have been best suited for, other animals are likewise also better suited for their enviroment. Nothing special about us, we are just adapted to our enviroment.
Many scientists tried to teach apes some sort of communication skill so that they can interact with humans at human level but they have failed miserably.
Ditto what Pygoscelis said. Other apes have been taught sign language.
....
If evolution is true than why out of millions of creatures and after millions of years Only Human beings are such highly developed,
We are not the only "highly developed", pretty much every creature is highly developed for their nitch.
.....
Evolution does not take place, at least not the way Darwin states
true because evolution of today is not the same as the evolution of darwins day and age.
Even after millions of years we human still have 5 basic senses, we have not developed super brains, what we humans have done is used our power of reasoning and logical thinking and rational mind to expand our knowledge base to extraordinary level
As a result of which we have become highly advanced in so many fields today.
Ditto what Pygoscelis said.
The proponents of Darwin’s theory have themselves become the master of Darwin today And the universe... .... He-Man....
They refuse to accept the futility of Darwin’s theory in explaining the origin of man
yes they dont think its futile to explain and thus they keep on learning..
Simply because they have no other alternative except to confirm the existence of god. Evo does not equal atheism.
Therefore they hang on to any flimsy evidence provided to them.
nope. as a matter of fact an of those hoaxs you hear about were likely disproven by evolutionary scientists.
...
You see Darwin himself was in doubt about his theory and was open to the idea that his theory will collapse.
Wow he gave ways to falsify evo.. no way that would happen in science... Of course you still dont understand that evo of today is not the same as it was in darwins time, it has been adjusted as new info has come in.
If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous successive slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down (Darwin, 1859, p. 219).
And this would be a falsification criteria. And guess what...
“Living fossil is the nickname given to organisms whose traces appear in the fossil layers from early geological periods, of which living specimens are still found today. These living things exhibit no differences from their counterparts from millions of years ago, and represent living examples of those long-dead fossil forms.”
and evo allows for their to be living fossils.
“The Cœlacanth, ......”See above.
“The catching of a live specimen of Cœlacanth did away with one of the greatest fake foundations of the theory of evolution.”
false, see above.
The Horseshoe Crab ......”
see above.
The Cockroach....”
see above...
Darwin himself would have collapsed let alone his theory if he were presented such evidence!!!!!
Nope, as stated, the theory of evo allows for living fossils, a species does not need to die out inorder for it to evolve. It will often split into more forms as new nitches are presented. If one finds its current nitch perfect then you wont likely see a change, If a variation of it finds a nother nitch its better suited for then it will take over that nitch.
ranma1/2
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There is a difference between just random and random and selection.
But to get back to what i was saying, if i recall correctly the posts i was responding to was say roughly
a)random, b) god are the only choices, i showed that he was wrong that there were other choices including.
Random mutation with selection as being one of them.
ranma1/2
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You listed mutations and i explained that mutations are random, you confused what causes a mutation with the actual mutation. I admit that mutations are caused, either by damage to dna or imperfect replication to name 2. You also seem to completely ignore the selection part of evo.
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Wow. i mean wow you dont belive in science?
I can understand wanting to believe something because it doesnt change. It creates a kind of secure feeling but it doesnt mean that it is not wrong.
Science tries to discover the hows and whys and tries to back those up with evidence. If it weren for science you would not have that nice computer you are typing on. Nor modern medicine, nor other technological marvels. So wether you openly accept science or not it influences your life.
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I made you quite a long list of questions which you have decided to evade!.. Your buddy came to your rescue thus answering me one question with another..You maintained you didn't like the style of presentation, :rollseyes I can safely assume, it is because you didn't understand what was presented you... then the thread was closed. Why are you entertaining us again and all of a sudden? I am not going to go through the trouble of retyping my work... I admit it isn't as fast as linking us to a website... but at least some thought went into it.
Peace
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I answered many of them and you kept avoiding my answers.
As for your presentation, i dont care for and tend to ignore rude and uncivil remarks. Your presentation tended to avoid facts and responces and instead attacked the poster and the facts or evidence presented.
You provided mutations, i showed how your thinking was flawed.
You also constantly tried to hijack the thread from evo related mutatations "germline or those that can be passed on" to other forms of mutations. You never showed how those mutations were not random.
Now please be civil, try to attack the evidence presented for how they are wrong rather than avoiding them.
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actually i did, you may have ignored the answers. And I admit aftger page 4 of that thread i just started ingnoring your posts due to your uncivilized manner " you have improved though which i appreciate" Regaurdless i have asked the mods about why the thread was closed so hopefully i can create a seperate thread for us to continue our debates there and prevent this one frombeing derailed with yes you did and no you didnts...
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You are so full of you know what... Here is the post again show me your keen critical analysis -- your answers point by point!
It is a child that blathers and it is a man that speaks his mind!
http://www.islamicboard.com/711552-post53.html
It is a child that blathers and it is a man that speaks his mind!
http://www.islamicboard.com/711552-post53.html
lavikor201
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If you understood the first thing about the story, maybe I would indulge you.
It's simple math: the world is either accident or intelligence. If you want to be an atheist, your choice is accident.
If accident. it was either at once or in stages. But that such a highly developed world can accidentally all come at once, like "boom!" there’s people, males, females. Food, water, air, sunlight etc" all suddenly and at the same time is currently inexplicable.
That leaves graduality, which means evolution.
The exact mechanism whereby the graduality supposedly took place - survival of the fittest, sudden mutation, etc - is where the theories come in. But if you’re going to be an atheist, you’re going to have to find some way to validate evolution, because until they find something else, evolution is the only way to explain a G-dless world. That’s why its worth spending our time showing what nonsense evolution is, because today, that’s all the atheists have to hang their hats on. Once that’s not an option, there is nothing left for them.
And if they come up with some other silly idea, that too, will be worth spending our time to expose. But right now, this is all they have. And it is nothing.
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science proves the existence of Allah(SW) each passing DAY!!!
ranma1/2
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well so much for civility, sigh. if you want to discuss it create a seperate thread, but for point. At that point of the thread i jsut decided discussion with you was pointless since you ignore my posts and just throw insults.
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OK here is a reply to that posts you linked to.
After deleting your insults and such I’ve narrowed your posts a little bit.
Can you show me a species that has evolved over time without using fossil records:
I answered that one earlier in the thread, you discounted it. And fossil evidence is also very relevant so I assume you don’t want this presented since you know that. Or you are being dishonest in not wanting it presented since it hurts your case.
Can you tell me why these are evolutionary findings as opposed to say related species or completely different species?
Well related they most likely are, as for other evidence apart from fossils which show a clear relation, we have genetics that show a clear relation between species. Humans have clear genetic similarities to other apes.
Can you tell me why the fossils found are of our ancestors rather than species that have gone extinct—
Wow trying to do a trick question? Speaking in a general term, the fossils show a progression from one form to another. As for extinction, it doesn’t really matter if they are still alive today or not , what matters is that their children at some point split from their form to another so they can both be our ancestors and extinct or alive. “although in all likely hood they will have had their nitch filled by something similar.”
considering there is a number of things they don't share with us-
……
I left this in even though it wasn’t a question. It is expected that they will have differences since they aren’t us. However genetically we have a genetic ancestor.
is evolution reproducible?
Yes
reproducible means we can duplicate it, can do it again to prove it and stick it in the eye of those G-D believing twits.
Fact is that the majority of those evolutionists are as you put it are G-D believing twits.
Apart from your constant hostility, yes it can be reproduced in that it can be observed and observed again. Gravity for example can be observed by dropping a pen. Evo can be observed by watching species change and split over time.
Show me how any mutation known to us, can cause evolution to a new specie rather than the usual--a state of disease or death or adaptation to one of the previously mentioned types of (-plasias)?
Not any mutations, we are talking about evolution so we are referring to germ line mutations.
And here is a source for you from Berkley, if that isn’t good enough for you then I don’t know what would be. http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/mutations_05
.The basic process is this. A Mutation occurs, it is random, “mind you it likely was caused by something. Examples being damage from a source, imperfect replication etc..” and in all likely hood it will be selected out if the mutation prevents reproduction , if it does not help or hinder then it’s a neutral mutation and no likely change to chance of survival, if its positive in that aids the creature in survival then it is much more likely to be passed on in the gene pool.
So all that post was shortened to that little bit.
After deleting your insults and such I’ve narrowed your posts a little bit.
Can you show me a species that has evolved over time without using fossil records:
I answered that one earlier in the thread, you discounted it. And fossil evidence is also very relevant so I assume you don’t want this presented since you know that. Or you are being dishonest in not wanting it presented since it hurts your case.
Can you tell me why these are evolutionary findings as opposed to say related species or completely different species?
Well related they most likely are, as for other evidence apart from fossils which show a clear relation, we have genetics that show a clear relation between species. Humans have clear genetic similarities to other apes.
Can you tell me why the fossils found are of our ancestors rather than species that have gone extinct—
Wow trying to do a trick question? Speaking in a general term, the fossils show a progression from one form to another. As for extinction, it doesn’t really matter if they are still alive today or not , what matters is that their children at some point split from their form to another so they can both be our ancestors and extinct or alive. “although in all likely hood they will have had their nitch filled by something similar.”
considering there is a number of things they don't share with us-
……
I left this in even though it wasn’t a question. It is expected that they will have differences since they aren’t us. However genetically we have a genetic ancestor.
is evolution reproducible?
Yes
reproducible means we can duplicate it, can do it again to prove it and stick it in the eye of those G-D believing twits.
Fact is that the majority of those evolutionists are as you put it are G-D believing twits.
Apart from your constant hostility, yes it can be reproduced in that it can be observed and observed again. Gravity for example can be observed by dropping a pen. Evo can be observed by watching species change and split over time.
Show me how any mutation known to us, can cause evolution to a new specie rather than the usual--a state of disease or death or adaptation to one of the previously mentioned types of (-plasias)?
Not any mutations, we are talking about evolution so we are referring to germ line mutations.
And here is a source for you from Berkley, if that isn’t good enough for you then I don’t know what would be. http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/mutations_05
.The basic process is this. A Mutation occurs, it is random, “mind you it likely was caused by something. Examples being damage from a source, imperfect replication etc..” and in all likely hood it will be selected out if the mutation prevents reproduction , if it does not help or hinder then it’s a neutral mutation and no likely change to chance of survival, if its positive in that aids the creature in survival then it is much more likely to be passed on in the gene pool.
So all that post was shortened to that little bit.
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ranma1/2
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....show me how a Silent mutation, a nonsense mutation, a missense mutation, a frame shift mutation was able to change any specie into another.
I have explained this way to many times, reallll simple this time.
A mutation occurs, it either provides no advantage or disadvantage, or it prodivides an advantage or it provides a disadvantage. Those that provide a advantage have a greater chance of being passed on into the population Negtaive will likely not be passed into the population. Neutral either or.
Of course i assume you know this.
(a mutation that is "random" yet caused by something?)
What does that mean to you?
Ok lets say you expose something to a chemical that increases the mutation rate. It will not cause more mutations that are resistent to that chemical.
You smoke, you induce lung cancer. How is that random?
The mutation itself is brough on by damage. The specific mutation is random and the result due to damage in this case often causes cancer.
Of course your getting off of the topic of mutation related to evo a little bit.
Now how about you tell me what a mutation is ok?
Do you understand that in evo speak we are referring to populations?
Please explain what a species is in terms of evolution?
Do you understand that it is through gradual change that you will get these new species?
I have explained this way to many times, reallll simple this time.
A mutation occurs, it either provides no advantage or disadvantage, or it prodivides an advantage or it provides a disadvantage. Those that provide a advantage have a greater chance of being passed on into the population Negtaive will likely not be passed into the population. Neutral either or.
Of course i assume you know this.
(a mutation that is "random" yet caused by something?)
What does that mean to you?
Ok lets say you expose something to a chemical that increases the mutation rate. It will not cause more mutations that are resistent to that chemical.
You smoke, you induce lung cancer. How is that random?
The mutation itself is brough on by damage. The specific mutation is random and the result due to damage in this case often causes cancer.
Of course your getting off of the topic of mutation related to evo a little bit.
Now how about you tell me what a mutation is ok?
Do you understand that in evo speak we are referring to populations?
Please explain what a species is in terms of evolution?
Do you understand that it is through gradual change that you will get these new species?
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no i completley agree with you, science is vital in the developement of man, technology wise. my point was you cant put your faith into something so fickle, which changes so often, and yet each theory is right in its time. it seems very pragmatic.
if you understood the quran maybe i would indulge you.
lavikor201
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You expect me to read the Quran to find out more about the story of the golden calf?
GUYS !!!!!
You are talking in circles.
It is not religion Vs science here.
I find it silly for atheist and believers (I am a new believer) point to on theory like Darwin --bye the way it /he was only the first .... and it is NOT used today in the classroom, no more then Edison first bulb is used in a room.
The mind
To ignore science is to ignore the ground you walk on and yes when we go from a dirt road to a cement sidewalk the scientist will say "The ground just changed” then studies it.
The Heart
We science guys can not ignore the spirit side of things. The imperial data shows many people had spiritual events, like me. What they are, I hope we find out. None the less, many people had them so the reality is that it is there.
God is rational as much as he is loving.
I posted before: Why can’t God have done it through evolution.
The only question is "Do you believe in a higher Power"
Leave out science Vs Religion ... that is not the fight and that’s why you are talking in circles.
Your discussion is Antitheist Vs Believer
You both made good points.
I know God is rational (The language of Math)
I know God loves (Religious Text)
I know he wants us to have free will for if we didn’t he mite as well watch a tree being a tree.
You are talking in circles.
It is not religion Vs science here.
I find it silly for atheist and believers (I am a new believer) point to on theory like Darwin --bye the way it /he was only the first .... and it is NOT used today in the classroom, no more then Edison first bulb is used in a room.
The mind
To ignore science is to ignore the ground you walk on and yes when we go from a dirt road to a cement sidewalk the scientist will say "The ground just changed” then studies it.
The Heart
We science guys can not ignore the spirit side of things. The imperial data shows many people had spiritual events, like me. What they are, I hope we find out. None the less, many people had them so the reality is that it is there.
God is rational as much as he is loving.
I posted before: Why can’t God have done it through evolution.
The only question is "Do you believe in a higher Power"
Leave out science Vs Religion ... that is not the fight and that’s why you are talking in circles.
Your discussion is Antitheist Vs Believer
You both made good points.
I know God is rational (The language of Math)
I know God loves (Religious Text)
I know he wants us to have free will for if we didn’t he mite as well watch a tree being a tree.
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