Creationists dealt a blow

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Personally I think ToE is not based on testing nor is it falsifiable. As for the many tests and falsifications people come up with, they just don't seem to cut the mustard. At least, if you ask me they don't. But I had recently made a resolve no longer to indulge in head-on debates. So although right now I'm extremely tempted, instead of defending my case I'm just going to invite you to think it over for yourself.

I will give you two open questions though: (I don't require an answer, my mind is already firmly made up, they are purely put forward in an attempt to be thought-provoking)

For testability of a theory, is there a difference between testing a theory directly (like dropping an apple to the floor to see if it falls), and backing a theory up with tests (like proving a certain creature did indeed live in that era by carbon dating it)?

For falsification. When I claim I have a rock that wards of tigers. And I point out to the fact that there are no tigers in the vicinity of that rock, is that sufficient as falsification?

That being said, I guess all that's left is to agree to disagree.
 
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NO scientist thinks darwin is a fact.

Argument From Authority


People that change their minds in the present of truth. Is that a bad thing?

People confuse opinions, observations, conclusions as truth ignoring hard facts is that a
Good thing?


Satan takes many forms and uses many tools.
There is plenty of history to proove religous people did exactly the same thing.

Yes and his tool includes Darwin's theory of evolution


Prsent theory:
Puncuated equilibrium: slow progress (adaptations) and then every so often quick changes
(new species).


Future theory: punctured equilibrium!!!



Evolutionist believes that Darwin's theory of evolution is scientific but the truth is, it is just conclusions formed by observing fossils and species.
Darwin observed this and Darwin observed that, Darwin concluded this and Darwin concluded that.

Unlike big bang theory which is validated by
Astronomers who combined mathematical models with observations to develop workable theories of how the Universe came to be.
These mathematical models included Albert Einstein's theory of general relativity
And a standard theory of fundamental particles and the observation was done by Hubble Space Telescope and Spitzer Space Telescope.

If the Big Bang model is correct, the proportion of helium in the Universe should be
Approximately 24% and this is what was observed


Gravity is one of the four fundamental forces of nature :D

NASA has several missions to study gravitational waves

LISA (Laser Interferometry Space Antenna)

INFLATION PROBE will seek the imprint of gravitational waves on the relic cosmic microwave
Background by observing the polarization of the background photons.

BIG BANG Observer is a gravitational wave detector


Now compare this with Darwin's theory of evolution
There is no fossil record to show intermediate state of evolution all the fossil record
Show fully formed species, there are no fossil to show any gradually changing species, his theory does not stand scrutiny at molecular level.
To fill these gaping holes in his theory Stephen Jay Gould proposed the theory of punctuated equilibrium but unwittingly he ended up discrediting Darwin's theory of evolution for this
He was criticized heavily by his fellowmen


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


“but was criticized by some in the biological community who felt his public presentations
were,in various respects, out of step with mainstream evolutionary theory."

"The eminent John Maynard Smith{evolutionary biologist } was among Gould's stronges
critics. Maynard Smith thought that Gould trivialized the role of adaptation, and
criticized Gould's periodic invocation of large scale mutations.
In a recent review of Daniel Dennett's book Darwin's Dangerous Idea, Maynard Smith wrote
That Gould "is giving non-biologists a largely false picture of the state of evolutionary
Theory."

"Gould's interpretation of the Cambrian Burgess Shale fossils in his book Wonderful Life
was criticized by Simon Conway Morris in his 1998 book The Crucible Of Creation."

http://www.answers.com/topic/stephen-jay-gould
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Due to such heavy criticisms Gould went back to drawing board and made some changes to his
theory but ended up messing it up further


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NO EVIDENCE FOR EVOLUTION

Scientists' Research and Darwinism


"In the past 25 years, Eldredge and Gould have proposed so many different versions of their
theory that it is difficult to describe it with any accuracy. If a scientific theory is to
be of any value as a tool for exploring the real world, it must have some stability as a
set of propositions open to empirical test. Punctuated equilibrium has undergone so many
transformations that it is hard to distinguish its core of truth from the "statement that
morphological evolution sometimes occurs episodically."

The above quotation by Jerry A. Coyne and Brian Charlesworth, Department of Ecology and Evolution, University of Chicago, appeared in Science, Volume 276, Number 5311, 18 April 1997, pp. 337-341.



""How did a very complex molecule, DNA, occur when the best that can happen
naturalistically is for chemicals to form amino acids?" 2. "Even given DNA, how did we
obtain the intricate genetic information it contains from chemicals, which have no genetic
information at all?" How does something come from nothing? Are evolutionists calling for
miracles here, under the name of science? There is no genetic information in chemicals to
mutate and no genetic information to undergo natural selection - mutation and natural
selection being two mainstays of current evolutionary thinking. Also, there is no process
that scientists know of, whereby amino acids naturally form DNA. Given these
considerations, how can any clearly thinking person claim that we came from only chemicals?
Yet some people do, so it would seem that their faith in a naturalistic worldview overrides
reason."


this is a good read visit the link

http://personal.georgiasouthern.edu/~etmcmull/Noev.htm

---------------------------------------------------------------------------




very true, many creation stories storyies have been around before we
(scientist) found them. I think this way cool. If man can dream it ... God has probably
done it already.

AB


I notice you saying god can do this god can do that.
There are certain things god (Allah) does not do.
Allah does not sleep, Allah does not get tired, and Allah does not produce children, but Allah Has power over everything.

And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and Allah has power over all things.
(Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #189)


As a citizen of any country a person has the right and responsibility to uphold the
Constitution and laws of the country they belong to and they are liable to be punished if
They break the law, similarly since you acknowledge the existence of god and he is the
Creator of the whole universe it is incumbent on you that you find the true god and follow
His constitution and laws otherwise you are liable to be punished.
Hence you must state your concept of god and not just vaguely some sort of god who can do
Anything (Allah does not do just anything) , this is for your own benefit.

By the way Zulu believe in the god Nkulunkulu.



.
 
Hi Lavikor,

There is a law of physics called "causation." It means, in a nutshell, that everything in the world must a cause.....

Now we have a question: If everything has a cause, and the causes also have a cause, and the causes of the cause also have a cause, etc – are the amount of causes in the chain of causes going all the way back infinite or finite?

Finite. Because it would be impossible that there were an infinite chain of causes without a beginning, for, as we learned, an infinite amount of things cannot happen - infinity is not the "biggest number"; rather, it is a number that can never be reached. ...

And if so, if we cannot have a chain of causes without any beginning, there had to be a beginning - a First Cause, which itself had no cause at all.

This means, that this first cause has no reason or reasons for why it is; nothing created it, nothing makes it what it is. This First Cause is what we refer to as “Hashem”.

Infinite univers? who knows. I could go into big crunch, big bang and such but thats beside the point. If there was a first cause why cant there be many unrealted first causes. Also this first cause doesnt need to be intellegent or even living.

The snake has some kinda protective sack that makes protects it from the poison.

Now, as the snake was developing (sic), which came first: The poison or the sack? If the poison, then snakes wouold have immediately become extinct, since they would have all poisoned itself. If the sack, then why would a sack develop and remain if there was no poison to protect it from?
Obvioiusly the poison and the sack had to come at the same time. And that can only happen through Hashem.
By sack are you referring to the glands that hold the venom? Venom itself is a modifcation of saliva. As the saliva became more deadly the snakes that either were immune to their poison or developed other defences would be selected into the population over those that didnt.
 
By sack are you referring to the glands that hold the venom? Venom itself is a modifcation of saliva. As the saliva became more deadly the snakes that either were immune to their poison or developed other defences would be selected into the population over those that didnt.

I expected such an answer. :rollseyes
 
....show me how a Silent mutation, a nonsense mutation, a missense mutation, a frame shift mutation was able to change any specie into another.
I have explained this way to many times, reallll simple this time.
A mutation occurs, it either provides no advantage or disadvantage, or it prodivides an advantage or it provides a disadvantage. Those that provide a advantage have a greater chance of being passed on into the population Negtaive will likely not be passed into the population. Neutral either or.
Of course i assume you know this.
Yes, I understand that evolution refers to population changes, but these start as individual changes that have supposedly enhanced adaptive ability.

One thing I don't understand is how "random" (as opposed to ID) evolutionists attribute the creation of new species to a random, destructive process. Note: how many superior mutations did Hiroshima and Chernobyl give us that we are now more fit as a species?

This evolution is assumed to be a progressive process starting from an original seminal "common ancestor". The human species is assumed to have evolved from the bactria - not the bacteria evolve from humans. Both of these are absolutely ludicrous to me without a Higher Power directing the whole thing.

My contention is that the original, unmutated, DNA coded for the most perfect protein and that nearly all mutations are recessive and lethal or otherwise render the offspring less - not more - fit when homozygous. Prime example is sickle cell anemia.

If there a million trees growing in an area with tremondously high iron deposits, how long must we wait for two 2"x4" boards to be randomly nailed together by 16d nails? how long to wait for a 3-bedroom house to randomly appear?
 
Hi Mustafa,
First i would like to say it is always a pleasure to have civil conversations with members like you.


One thing I don't understand is how evolutionists attribute the creation of new species to a random, destructive process.

Could you clarify what process? Evolution? Mutation?


Note: how many superior mutations did Hiroshima and Chernobyl give us that we are now more fit as a species?

Mutations only matter if they are the type that can be transferred to the next generation of off spring. The mutations caused by Chernobyl and Hiroshima in general where fatal and not of the type to be passed on. It also should be pointed out that humans have to a point put themselves out of natural selection.
So looking at nature, animals that through mutations had a characteristic that gave an advantage would more likely live. In the case of Hiroshima i would almost expect to see some animals with some sort of radiation resistence.


This evolution is assumed to be a progressive process starting from an original seminal "common ancestor". The human species is assumed to have evolved from the bacteria - not the bacteria evolve from humans. Both of these are absolutely ludicrous to me without a Higher Power directing the whole thing.

As stated before there is evidence in both structures, fossils and dna.
The entire phylogenetic tree is evidence that everything had a common ancestor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phylogenetic_tree

Evidence for humans having a common ancestor with other apes include genetic similarities with dna and a fused chromosome.
http://www.gate.net/~rwms/hum_ape_chrom.html




My contention is that the original, unmutated, DNA coded for the most perfect protein and that nearly all mutations are recessive and lethal or otherwise render the offspring less - not more - fit when homozygous. Prime example is sickle cell anemia.]

Im not sure if i understand what do you mean by Perfect protein?
Mutations however are not all lethal. And some that may be lethal in some instances may be benefital in others. Sickle cell vs malaria.
Also sense positive mutatations are more likely to be selected in to the population you will see a natural trend torward improvement somehow.



argh.. got to go to class.
 
Could you clarify what process? Evolution? Mutation?
Mutation seems to be the foundation for genetic changes that selection pressure acts on. My knowledge of mutation is that it is predominantly destructive.

Mutations only matter if they are the type that can be transferred to the next generation of off spring. The mutations caused by Chernobyl and Hiroshima in general where fatal and not of the type to be passed on. It also should be pointed out that humans have to a point put themselves out of natural selection.
So looking at nature, animals that through mutations had a characteristic that gave an advantage would more likely live. In the case of Hiroshima i would almost expect to see some animals with some sort of radiation resistence.
Well aren't there genetic mutations induced by these nuclear disasters along with depleted uranium used by US in anti-tank weaponry passed on to the next generation? Yes, humans have reached a point where even the weak survive and reproduce. I believe that last statement is a bit far fetched "radiation resistance". How about selection for resistance to a bullet in the back of the head?

As stated before there is evidence in both structures, fossils and dna.
The entire phylogenetic tree is evidence that everything had a common ancestor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phylogenetic_tree

Evidence for humans having a common ancestor with other apes include genetic similarities with dna and a fused chromosome.
http://www.gate.net/~rwms/hum_ape_chrom.html
No, this proves nothing. Just because there is similarity of DNA between organisms it doesn't mean they derived from a common ancestor. What it means to me is that they were created from similar "building blocks". Just because a 3-bedroom house and the Empire State Building have some of the same materials, doesn't mean one evolved from the other. You would expect houses on the same block to be "more related" than a factory in another country.

Im not sure if i understand what do you mean by Perfect protein?
Mutations however are not all lethal. And some that may be lethal in some instances may be benefital in others. Sickle cell vs malaria.
Also sense positive mutatations are more likely to be selected in to the population you will see a natural trend torward improvement somehow.
The structure of proteins amazes me. The linking of amino acids in a particular order to form a certain sequence that then folds in upon itself in a three-dimensional form and often forming complexes with other transcriptional products. How changes in just 1 out of hundreds of nucleic acids in DNA can render the resulting protein non-functional demonstrates the destructive nature of mutations. However, occassionally there are changes that are good. When a person has only one copy of the Sickle Cell gene, then he is much more likely to survive Malaria. In the homozygous state, this gene renders the individual less fit.
 


Argument From Authority




People confuse opinions, observations, conclusions as truth ignoring hard facts is that a
Good thing?




Yes and his tool includes Darwin's theory of evolution





Future theory: punctured equilibrium!!!



Evolutionist believes that Darwin's theory of evolution is scientific but the truth is, it is just conclusions formed by observing fossils and species.
Darwin observed this and Darwin observed that, Darwin concluded this and Darwin concluded that.

Unlike big bang theory which is validated by
Astronomers who combined mathematical models with observations to develop workable theories of how the Universe came to be.
These mathematical models included Albert Einstein's theory of general relativity
And a standard theory of fundamental particles and the observation was done by Hubble Space Telescope and Spitzer Space Telescope.

If the Big Bang model is correct, the proportion of helium in the Universe should be
Approximately 24% and this is what was observed


Gravity is one of the four fundamental forces of nature :D

NASA has several missions to study gravitational waves

LISA (Laser Interferometry Space Antenna)

INFLATION PROBE will seek the imprint of gravitational waves on the relic cosmic microwave
Background by observing the polarization of the background photons.

BIG BANG Observer is a gravitational wave detector


Now compare this with Darwin's theory of evolution
There is no fossil record to show intermediate state of evolution all the fossil record
Show fully formed species, there are no fossil to show any gradually changing species, his theory does not stand scrutiny at molecular level.
To fill these gaping holes in his theory Stephen Jay Gould proposed the theory of punctuated equilibrium but unwittingly he ended up discrediting Darwin's theory of evolution for this
He was criticized heavily by his fellowmen


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


“but was criticized by some in the biological community who felt his public presentations
were,in various respects, out of step with mainstream evolutionary theory."

"The eminent John Maynard Smith{evolutionary biologist } was among Gould's stronges
critics. Maynard Smith thought that Gould trivialized the role of adaptation, and
criticized Gould's periodic invocation of large scale mutations.
In a recent review of Daniel Dennett's book Darwin's Dangerous Idea, Maynard Smith wrote
That Gould "is giving non-biologists a largely false picture of the state of evolutionary
Theory."

"Gould's interpretation of the Cambrian Burgess Shale fossils in his book Wonderful Life
was criticized by Simon Conway Morris in his 1998 book The Crucible Of Creation."

http://www.answers.com/topic/stephen-jay-gould
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Due to such heavy criticisms Gould went back to drawing board and made some changes to his
theory but ended up messing it up further


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NO EVIDENCE FOR EVOLUTION

Scientists' Research and Darwinism


"In the past 25 years, Eldredge and Gould have proposed so many different versions of their
theory that it is difficult to describe it with any accuracy. If a scientific theory is to
be of any value as a tool for exploring the real world, it must have some stability as a
set of propositions open to empirical test. Punctuated equilibrium has undergone so many
transformations that it is hard to distinguish its core of truth from the "statement that
morphological evolution sometimes occurs episodically."

The above quotation by Jerry A. Coyne and Brian Charlesworth, Department of Ecology and Evolution, University of Chicago, appeared in Science, Volume 276, Number 5311, 18 April 1997, pp. 337-341.



""How did a very complex molecule, DNA, occur when the best that can happen
naturalistically is for chemicals to form amino acids?" 2. "Even given DNA, how did we
obtain the intricate genetic information it contains from chemicals, which have no genetic
information at all?" How does something come from nothing? Are evolutionists calling for
miracles here, under the name of science? There is no genetic information in chemicals to
mutate and no genetic information to undergo natural selection - mutation and natural
selection being two mainstays of current evolutionary thinking. Also, there is no process
that scientists know of, whereby amino acids naturally form DNA. Given these
considerations, how can any clearly thinking person claim that we came from only chemicals?
Yet some people do, so it would seem that their faith in a naturalistic worldview overrides
reason."


this is a good read visit the link

http://personal.georgiasouthern.edu/~etmcmull/Noev.htm

---------------------------------------------------------------------------







I notice you saying god can do this god can do that.
There are certain things god (Allah) does not do.
Allah does not sleep, Allah does not get tired, and Allah does not produce children, but Allah Has power over everything.

And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and Allah has power over all things.
(Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #189)


As a citizen of any country a person has the right and responsibility to uphold the
Constitution and laws of the country they belong to and they are liable to be punished if
They break the law, similarly since you acknowledge the existence of god and he is the
Creator of the whole universe it is incumbent on you that you find the true god and follow
His constitution and laws otherwise you are liable to be punished.
Hence you must state your concept of god and not just vaguely some sort of god who can do
Anything (Allah does not do just anything) , this is for your own benefit.

By the way Zulu believe in the god Nkulunkulu.



.

This probly will be my last post here.

These kinds of staments are dangerous.

You are the kind of people (not muslem here ... just this guy ... we have them in christianity too) that I tell people to watch out for, they sound good enough, but they are false prophets. God is bigger than you, please try and listen to him...

or ...
Go put your head back in the sand.

I qoute you here.
"People confuse opinions, observations, conclusions as truth ignoring hard facts is that a
Good thing?"

This is just sick dude.


AB
 
Hi again Mustafa,

Mutation seems to be the foundation for genetic changes that selection pressure acts on. My knowledge of mutation is that it is predominantly destructive.

Correct mutation is the foundation for change. Without change everything would be the same. And although that the majority of mutations are destructive the fact that they are destructive means that they wont be passed on into the population. Those few positive mutations will be passed on.


Well aren't there genetic mutations induced by these nuclear disasters along with depleted uranium used by US in anti-tank weaponry passed on to the next generation?

Regardless of how the mutation occurs, if the mutation is not a germline mutation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germline_mutation
it wont be passed on. Also if the creature dies before it reproduces it wont be passed on.




Yes, humans have reached a point where even the weak survive and reproduce.
However outside of industrialized society you can still see human populations evolving persay. In parts of africa you can find people with extraordinary eyesite. This eyesite is used to spy game and predators in the plains.


I believe that last statement is a bit far fetched "radiation resistance". How about selection for resistance to a bullet in the back of the head?
Radiation resistence is not as farfetched as you may think. If a member of the population is suddenly fitter than others and the others either die out or dont reproduce as much that extra fitness will be have a greater chance or being spread throughout the population.
There are bacteria that have extreme resistence to radiation as compared to humans. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinococcus_radiodurans


No, this proves nothing. Just because there is similarity of DNA between organisms it doesn't mean they derived from a common ancestor.

Correct, however it is evidence that we do. Also its not just similarity in dna but in many other aspects. Through the tree i showed you eariler there is a clear progression from one form to another. Those that are closer to us in that tree have much closer dna similarities. I could go on into how we share in our dna with apes past diseases or viruses that have been added to our dna but i dont have a source at the moment.

What it means to me is that they were created from similar "building blocks". ...
What would the alternative be? if you are saying a god created us as is then why model us after apes down to the ability of not being able to manufacture vitamin c? Not to mention being so imperfectly made. "I hate my glasses."


The structure of proteins amazes me. The linking of amino acids in a particular order to form a certain sequence that then folds in upon itself in a three-dimensional form and often forming complexes with other transcriptional products. How changes in just 1 out of hundreds of nucleic acids in DNA can render the resulting protein non-functional demonstrates the destructive nature of mutations.
Correct and those bad mutations wont usually get passed on. Good ones however do.

However, occassionally there are changes that are good.
So whats the problem then? You seem to realize that good mutations get passed on while bad ones dont.
 
This probly will be my last post here.

These kinds of staments are dangerous.

You are the kind of people (not muslem here ... just this guy ... we have them in christianity too) that I tell people to watch out for, they sound good enough, but they are false prophets. God is bigger than you, please try and listen to him...

or ...
Go put your head back in the sand.

I qoute you here.
"People confuse opinions, observations, conclusions as truth ignoring hard facts is that a
Good thing?"

This is just sick dude.


AB

He lost me at evolution is a tool of the devil.
 
However outside of industrialized society you can still see human populations evolving persay. In parts of africa you can find people with extraordinary eyesite. This eyesite is used to spy game and predators in the plains
Yes, and I agree with most of your post here.

Radiation resistence is not as farfetched as you may think. If a member of the population is suddenly fitter than others and the others either die out or dont reproduce as much that extra fitness will be have a greater chance or being spread throughout the population.
There are bacteria that have extreme resistence to radiation as compared to humans. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinococcus_radiodurans
I don't disagree that some organisms may survive a nuclear holocaust, but what about the probability of higher life forms (humans) surviving?

What would the alternative be? if you are saying a god created us as is then why model us after apes down to the ability of not being able to manufacture vitamin c? Not to mention being so imperfectly made. "I hate my glasses."
You make a good point, but I don't see that He modeled us after apes. I see that he created some things more similar than others. Structurally and genetically we are similar to apes. Another thing is that (Muslims may be repulsed, but..) humans also have a lot of anatomical and physiological similarity to swine.
http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/pubs/swine/swine.htm "Swine have increasingly become utilized as biomedical research models in the last two decades. This increased use as an animal model is not only a result of regulatory pressure on other large animal species, but also because swine are recognized as a suitable animal model for human disease based upon their comparative anatomy and physiology. Swine are used as general surgical models of most organs and systems, for cardiovascular research including atherosclerosis, for digestive system models, and in recent years in transplantation and xenografic research."

However, do evolutionists put humans and pigs close together on the evolutionary tree?
 

I don't disagree that some organisms may survive a nuclear holocaust, but what about the probability of higher life forms (humans) surviving?


It would depend on how close they were to the event. As for having a mutation that makes them more resistant, if one did have one then those without it would more likely die out. Of course no human has resistenct like the bacteria from earlier.

You make a good point, but I don't see that He modeled us after apes. I see that he created some things more similar than others. Structurally and genetically we are similar to apes. Another thing is that (Muslims may be repulsed, but..) humans also have a lot of anatomical and physiological similarity to swine.
http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/pubs/swine/swine.htm

You should look up glowing pigs and see how they are planning on being used in humans.


However, do evolutionists put humans and pigs close together on the evolutionary tree?[/QUOTE]

Compared to what? They are not as close as other apes.

Humans Pigs

Kingdom: Animalia Animalia
Phylum: Chordata Chordata
Class: Mammalia Mammalia
Order: Primates Artiodactyla

This website goesinto much more detail and i would recomend checking it out. You pretty much can start at the roots of the tree and see how it is classified. Unfortunatly it is a little out of date but its a good start.
http://tolweb.org/Eutheria/15997
and of course a wiki link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eutheria
 
A very good read visit the site

"The "origin of life" (OOL) is best described as the chemical and physical processes that brought into existence the first self-replicating molecule. It differs from the "evolution of life" because Darwinian evolution employs mutation and natural selection to change organisms, which requires reproduction. Since there was no reproduction before the first life, no "mutation - selection" mechanism was operating to build complexity. Hence, OOL theories cannot rely upon natural selection to increase complexity and must create the first life using only the laws of chemistry and physics."



http://www-acs.ucsd.edu/~idea/archives/origlife.htm



Mathematical Probabilities

" Morowitz's approach, in his Energy Flow in Biology (1968) was to calculate the probability of chance fluctuations generating enough energy for the bond formation that molecules needed for a living cell. For an ocean of the correct molecules needed to make a minimal cell, this would be one chance in 10399,999,866, again, basically an impossibility."


" As Pasteur's and others' experiments indicate, life does not occur spontaneously anywhere. Also, they imply that life did not occur at any time past. Additionally, the mathematical approach eliminates the option of life naturally occurring, either terrestrially or extraterrestrially. That leaves only the supernatural option. Life had to be created. It could not have happened by chance."





http://personal.georgiasouthern.edu/~etmcmull/CHEM.htm



O mankind! Be dutiful to your Lord, Who created you from a single person (adam), and from him (adam) He created his wife (Hawwa (Eve)), and from them both He created many men and women and fear Allah through Whom you demand your mutual (rights), and (do not cut the relations of) the wombs (kinship). Surely, Allah is Ever an AllWatcher over you.
( An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #1)

here Allah says all human beings have come from single human being ie Adam(pbuh)



And Allah has created from water every living creature: so of them is that which walks upon its belly, and of them is that which walks upon two feet, and of them is that which walks upon four; Allah creates what He pleases; surely Allah has power over all things.
(An-Noor, Chapter #24, Verse #45)


here Allah says he created all living creatures from water but he does not say they all came from single creature as is the case with Adam(pbuh)


since Allah is absolute truth, all the true things i have said are from Allah
and any wrong information or explanation that i may have given unintentionally is from me and i ask forgiveness from Allah and guidance from him.








.
 
Howdy Ajazz,

"The "origin of life" (OOL) is best described as the chemical and physical processes that brought into existence the first self-replicating molecule.
It differs from the "evolution of life" because Darwinian evolution employs mutation and natural selection to change organisms, which requires reproduction. Since there was no reproduction before the first life, no "mutation - selection" mechanism was operating to build complexity. Hence, OOL theories cannot rely upon natural selection to increase complexity and must create the first life using only the laws of chemistry and physics."
http://www-acs.ucsd.edu/~idea/archives/origlife.htm

Um im not sure what your point is with this article, evolution does not try to describe how life began that is of course abiogenisis.

Mathematical Probabilities

" Morowitz's approach, in his Energy Flow in Biology (1968) was to calculate the probability of chance fluctuations generating enough energy for the bond formation that molecules needed for a living cell. For an ocean of the correct molecules needed to make a minimal cell, this would be one chance in 10399,999,866, again, basically an impossibility."


Hardly. I have seen lottery ticket winners with worst chances. And remember life would have started to begin once the first self replication molecules where formed. Given enough matter and enough time its just about gauranteed.


" As Pasteur's and others' experiments indicate, life does not occur spontaneously anywhere. Also, they imply that life did not occur at any time past. Additionally, the mathematical approach eliminates the option of life naturally occurring, either terrestrially or extraterrestrially. That leaves only the supernatural option. Life had to be created. It could not have happened by chance."
http://personal.georgiasouthern.edu/~etmcmull/CHEM.htm

Now you are misleading, their experiments were that life could not sprout in full "flies from meat and mice from grain." They never ever did anything related to first life or abiogenisis. And i have already shown your mathmatical concept is flawed. Now with the supernatural option you need to explain how that came into being.





since Allah is absolute truth, all the true things i have said are from Allah
and any wrong information or explanation that i may have given unintentionally is from me and i ask forgiveness from Allah and guidance from him
.

I wouldnt declare your words are from Alah, im pretty sure thats a no no but i might be mistaken.
 
One problem I find with all theories on the concept of how evolution occurs. None of them seem to address how death evolved. Death does not seem to be a very healthy attribute for an organism to have.

If life is the result of random chance, so must death be.

Going a step further why is their death? Unless a dead organism has been physically destroyed, is it not the same material it was while it was alive?

So let us say that all of this events occur by chance. That can explain how we can end up with a 2 legged 6 foot tall lump of matter called man. But, the question is why is it alive?

The question I want answered is not how evolution can explain the existence of a pile of matter that looks like an Elephant, but rather why is the elephant alive.
 
One problem I find with all theories on the concept of how evolution occurs. None of them seem to address how death evolved. Death does not seem to be a very healthy attribute for an organism to have.

If life is the result of random chance, so must death be.

Going a step further why is their death? Unless a dead organism has been physically destroyed, is it not the same material it was while it was alive?

So let us say that all of this events occur by chance. That can explain how we can end up with a 2 legged 6 foot tall lump of matter called man. But, the question is why is it alive?

The question I want answered is not how evolution can explain the existence of a pile of matter that looks like an Elephant, but rather why is the elephant alive.

That does get to the heart of the matter doesn't it?
 
That does get to the heart of the matter doesn't it?


That suddenly hit me.

I remembered as a kid for a science fair project I did some interesting projects with crystals. It is fairly easy for even a 14 year old to make self replicating crystals. But, they are not alive. So the question is not so much "How did the lump of matter evolve", the question should be "What is Life? And how could Life evolve."
 
One problem I find with all theories on the concept of how evolution occurs. None of them seem to address how death evolved. Death does not seem to be a very healthy attribute for an organism to have.

If life is the result of random chance, so must death be.

Going a step further why is their death? Unless a dead organism has been physically destroyed, is it not the same material it was while it was alive?

So let us say that all of this events occur by chance. That can explain how we can end up with a 2 legged 6 foot tall lump of matter called man. But, the question is why is it alive?

The question I want answered is not how evolution can explain the existence of a pile of matter that looks like an Elephant, but rather why is the elephant alive.

I'd have to agree with you, on that observation... but I have much more serious problems with the theory of evolution from a cellular level-- It makes no sense.. unless you keep it in the realms of science fiction or under very strict general topics.
for instance when someone states
Correct mutation is the foundation for change. Without change everything would be the same. And although that the majority of mutations are destructive the fact that they are destructive means that they wont be passed on into the population. Those few positive mutations will be passed on.".

You'll notice a term like "mutation is the foundation of change".. well change into what? a change into a diseased state.. a change into spontaneous abortion, a change into not working as well, or no change at all. is in fact what has been observed from any mutation known to man. We have very much advanced in the field of molecular biology, that any number of possibilities are documented, through mode of action, pathophysiology and outcome-- further very destructive genes can and are being passed down to generations. To put it in very simple terms--Many genes normally contain a trinucleotide repeat which is present several times. When the number of trinucleotide repeats increases to a larger than normal number of copies, the DNA is altered, and the gene may not function properly, or may not work at all.

{{{Sometimes, a person may have more than the usual number of copies, but not enough to alter the function of the gene. These individuals are referred to as "premutation carriers." When they pass on these extra copies to a child, however, the extra trinucleotide repeats cause the DNA to become unstable, and the area of DNA expands even more. The result is that the child has a gene that no longer functions, or is not functioning properly and they are said to have the "full mutation." An example of a trinucleotide repeat disease is Fragile-X syndrome. }}} http://www.healthsystem.virginia.edu/uvahealth/peds_genetics/trinucleo.cfm

You can imagine due to the X linked inheritance of this, that it will and in fact is passed down for generations, the females are carriers and in turn this syndrome is present only in boys. I don't wish to get into what sort of genes get methylated or become non functional ( It is a very expansive topic) however, every generation thereof has more of these trinucleotide repeats.. they don't wipe themselves out, and they certainly don't become another specie... what happens is the degree of mental retardation becomes more severe with every generation... Same thing with Huntington's disease, except in that trinucleotide repeat, the person dies earlier and earlier with each successive generation... Some of the older members of this forums who may have listened to country songs may remember someone named 'Woody' Guthrie' who in fact died of this early on, and people were afraid the lethal genes were passed on to his kid-- another country singer whose name I can't remember at the moment, but he was spared... undoubtedly due to the autosomal dominant nature of the disease he is a carrier, and a strong chance he has passed the lethal genes to one of his off spring...the result of this will be early death, but they will not be wipe themselves out--- I don't wish to go further into what it means to have a germline mutation.. because this can be an all day lecture, frankly I don't have that kind of time.. but if I am to stand firm on a point (evolution) in this case, I'd really have to cover all grounds, not just pass generalizations and random statements of mutations or glowing pigs...



we already use porcine valves in humans, along with immunosuppressive therapy-- more often than not, I am lost and confused about the point the evolutionists are trying to make... putting a (phylum) or a (kingdom) in a topic doesn't loan it credence or qualify it as a heading for evolution. under Class Mammalia you'll find everything from Armadillos, to whales to humans.. I am very confused as to how or why that would qualify us as having evolved from such creatures, as opposed to simply having similarities with them? Further what is the name of this amazing mutation that would cause such a radical change?


Evolution becomes very flawed when it comes down to very specific detail... life is very detailed. Every cell has multitudes of functions and run like clock works... I am not trying to make a case for G-D, to be honest, it doesn't matter to me on the long run who believes in what, I much rather worry about my own pursuits, however, Darwin by today's standards is no scholar.. What he was is a cultist and started a cult of loyal fans, under the guise of science-- who go into extremes, albeit extremes in generality to prove his points. But they are really not holding up when put to the test.



my two cents

:w:
 
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The question I want answered is not how evolution can explain the existence of a pile of matter that looks like an Elephant, but rather why is the elephant alive.

Its alive in because it falls under what we classify as alive. I guess im not sure what you mean by alive.
 
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