Hostage-Taking - Is this Terrorism or a Legitimate Operation?

[wilberhum]

I just saw thin on another thread and thought it was applicable to the situration.

“No person earns any (sin) except against himself (only), and no bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another.”
(Quran 6:164)
“The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.”
(Deuteronomy 24:16)

Isn't taking hostages making them "bear the burden of another"?
I would think sol

 

[Chechen]

I just saw thin on another thread and thought it was applicable to the situration.

Isn't taking hostages making them "bear the burden of another"?
I would think sol

What does this have to do with hostage taking? Hostages aren't been being punished for anything.. They're just being used to scare a certain person.

 

[wilberhum]

Hostages aren't been being punished for anything..

Hardly an accurate statement. Having your freedom taken away, having your life threatened, is not punishment?
Oh well!

 

[SATalha]

I am not a supporter of hosstage takings. In battle or war the only thing you should be doing is fighting the enemy who bears arms!

no way should civilians and childrens be harmed!

But you need to understand that the people of chechnya hav suffered greatly......let me say that again GREATLY.
We shouldnt say what some terrorist do is good and we accept it, we should condem it but also understand the circumstances that they came from.

The humen mind is a fragile thing, it can break so easily and this will lead people to do extreme things that is wrong. But they feel that it is justice although we may not. Hope you understand what i am trying to say.

 

[wilberhum]

I am not a supporter of hosstage takings. In battle or war the only thing you should be doing is fighting the enemy who bears arms!

no way should civilians and childrens be harmed!

But you need to understand that the people of chechnya hav suffered greatly......let me say that again GREATLY.
We shouldnt say what some terrorist do is good and we accept it, we should condem it but also understand the circumstances that they came from.

The humen mind is a fragile thing, it can break so easily and this will lead people to do extreme things that is wrong. But they feel that it is justice although we may not. Hope you understand what i am trying to say.

Well said. Chechnya has suffered more than most countries. I hope peace will come there way, but terrorism it not the right road.

 

[SATalha]

Well said. Chechnya has suffered more than most countries. I hope peace will come there way, but terrorism it not the right road.

I honestly think that the Islamic Militants that are in that region take part in warefare with the army and also pro-russian chechens. From what i have read most if not all of the fighting take place against the Russian army and also the pr-russian chechen militants.

 

[wilberhum]

I honestly think that the Islamic Militants that are in that region take part in warefare with the army and also pro-russian chechens. From what i have read most if not all of the fighting take place against the Russian army and also the pr-russian chechen militants.

I think that is a reasonably honest assement. But "most" it the key word and "if not all" obviously is not accurate.

 

[SATalha]

Yeah you are right, but one thing that i do know is that the Amirs (leaders) know that killing civilians and terrorsim is wrong. Its the ones below with not much Islamic knowledge that use certain parts of the Quran and Adith out of context for their own means. But they dont realise that it goes against their own beliefs. I cant stress how important it is for Muslims not to harm other people lives (expect in war with the enemy)it makes me cring when i see these kind of things.

 

[wilberhum]

SATalha,
You talk a lot of good sence. That is a nice change for this thread. :thumbs_up

 

[Chechnya]

our question makes sense in an abstract, theoretical sense - relating to this specific case - the result in innocent lives saved was a positive one.
what would your question have been if it had not worked, and instead the russians murdered even more chechens?
would you then condemn hostage taking? there was no guarantee that it would result in an overall saving of life.

no, there was no guarantee but as it happened they achieved what they set out to achieve - they save hundreds of thousands of lives, they started the beginning of the end - a praiseworthy deed, im sure you'd agree..

sn't taking hostages making them "bear the burden of another"?

you have inadvertently raised an interesting point - to what extent are the people responsible for the crimes of the people they support into power? Are they completely blameless?

I think i'll start another thread on that :thumbs_up

But you need to understand that the people of chechnya hav suffered greatly......let me say that again GREATLY.
We shouldnt say what some terrorist do is good and we accept it, we should condem it but also understand the circumstances that they came from.

I dont know why you would want to condemn this - these men risked their lives and everything else to save their people from total destruction

I think its very easy to say " ok, people are suffering - its tragic but they shouldnt do anything "radical" to stop their own destruction - just die slowly"

no-one in the world was going to help the women and the children in chechnya who were being gang-raped, massacred, tortured - sure they had some sympathy - but what does sympathy get you?
does it stop the rape of a girl? or the destruction of a village?

even in shariah when things are at an extreme, shariah rules can be broken - basayev and his men after repeatedly offering to observe international law did things the hard way and achieved results

 

[Keltoi]

These sorts of debates are easy to have in the comfort of an office chair full of ideals and views on morality. While I do believe that taking non-combatants hostage for a political purpose is nothing less than terrorism, I'm a little hesitant to condemn the actions as monstrous and leave it at that. Chechnya, the poster not the country, has done a fairly good job at contrasting morality vs. reality. Not that the two are mutually exclusive, but people who have faced terrors beyond description will resort to things they would never imagine doing in the past. If you look at other peoples faced with destruction, being American I think of the Native tribes, they will do unspeakable acts of violence because they feel they have nothing else to lose. It doesn't justify it, it is just the reality of the situation.

 

[Chechnya]

These sorts of debates are easy to have in the comfort of an office chair full of ideals and views on morality. While I do believe that taking non-combatants hostage for a political purpose is nothing less than terrorism, I'm a little hesitant to condemn the actions as monstrous and leave it at that. Chechnya, the poster not the country, has done a fairly good job at contrasting morality vs. reality. Not that the two are mutually exclusive, but people who have faced terrors beyond description will resort to things they would never imagine doing in the past. If you look at other peoples faced with destruction, being American I think of the Native tribes, they will do unspeakable acts of violence because they feel they have nothing else to lose. It doesn't justify it, it is just the reality of the situation.

well said

though i may disagree with some of your points - at least you show understanding of the reality of the situation.

i think its also important to note that this was a last resort for the chechens - they tried every "peaceful" way to stop the slow genocide

they released hundreds of russian solders they had captured - shamil basayev, who was behind this hostage-taking operation, himself released over 400 russian soldiers by going out of his way to contact their mothers and telling them to collect their sons - that didnt stop the russians from mass-murdering and raping

the chechens also repeatedly offered to observe international law if russia did the same - that didnt work either as the russians just carried on with their mission

 

[Woodrow]

I have thought long and hard before posting here. I could not think of how to word it. It is paradoxol. I support the Chechens fully. My ancestors went through the same struggle and lost. I know recalling stories from my parents of the things desperation will drive good pious people to .

some times an act in itself may be an aberration, but there are times when there is no alternative. You can only do what can be done, it may often not seen as the best choice by others. but, unless we are there we are in no posistion to judge the morality of the act.

I read a bit more about that hostage situation. Yes, there were deaths, but all of the deaths were from the Russians "Rescuing" the hostages.

I would say that Bro.SATallah has come the closest to saying what I can not put into words.

 

[SATalha]

well said

though i may disagree with some of your points - at least you show understanding of the reality of the situation.

i think its also important to note that this was a last resort for the chechens - they tried every "peaceful" way to stop the slow genocide

they released hundreds of russian solders they had captured - shamil basayev, who was behind this hostage-taking operation, himself released over 400 russian soldiers by going out of his way to contact their mothers and telling them to collect their sons - that didnt stop the russians from mass-murdering and raping

the chechens also repeatedly offered to observe international law if russia did the same - that didnt work either as the russians just carried on with their mission

Salam, This is my point as well as bro woodrow has said it is a difficult issue. you know that iam for the our Chechen brothers and sisters all the way. The things that they have gone through because of the Russians is terrible and what the Russian guvernment have done to the chechen people is beyond terror. I can understand why people would resort to these mesures. Infact if i saw my family rippped to pieaces I can do pretty much anything for revenge. But will it find me peace? thats another question. Think about that. Wasalam

 

[Chechen]

Well this is what 400 years of terror leads to... They were extremely desperate and were ready to use any means because they knew everyone had turned their backs on them, the Chechens had no other way and they didn't want to just sit and watch how their nation is being slowly destroyed.

 

[Woodrow]

Well this is what 400 years of terror leads to... They were extremely desperate and were ready to use any means because they knew everyone had turned their backs on them, the Chechens had no other way and they didn't want to just sit and watch how their nation is being slowly destroyed.

Very true. Just so much abuse can be taken and then an escape from it has to be made. An abused people are very limited in what they can do to break free.

Thinking back, Colonial America was in a struggle with GB less then 300 years ago. The colonial fighters did many things that were considered horrible by the standards of the "civilized" world at that time. Yet, today they are glorified as courageous heros. I will not deny them the right of being heros as they were. But, the Chechens have been fighting for over 400 years. There have been many heros that came from the people of Chechnya but it is doubtful they will be recognized as such by the world, until after Chechnya wins it's freedom.

 

[MTAFFI]

What is really sad is that I fear the Chechens will never win their freedom unless someone steps in and stops Russia. Look at what they are up against, a neighboring world super power with unlimited resources and men to send in to take this land. It is almost as if the Russians are toying with them, rather then simply bombing and killing everyone and then taking the land, they send in people to rape and pillage, and kill and kill and kill. This still (I dont think) justifies killing innocent people on purpose, or taking innocent people as hostage. As someone said above, will that bring peace? I feel deeply for the Chechens, Russia has always been known to be a fairly brutal nation, to its own people and its neighbors. My prayers go out to these people

 

[Chechnya]

Salam, This is my point as well as bro woodrow has said it is a difficult issue. you know that iam for the our Chechen brothers and sisters all the way. The things that they have gone through because of the Russians is terrible and what the Russian guvernment have done to the chechen people is beyond terror. I can understand why people would resort to these mesures. Infact if i saw my family rippped to pieaces I can do pretty much anything for revenge. But will it find me peace? thats another question. Think about that. Wasalam

Bro this operation isnt about revenge - it never was

if they wanted revenge they would have just slaughtered everyone in the town - after the war was finished basayev offered to pay compensation to those who suffered in buddenyvosk and even apologised to them - revenge was the last thing on their mind

 

[Khan-Ghalgha]

The Chechens have a legitimate historical grievance against the Russians but this is not the way to do it. This was unequivocally a terrorist act. I suppose you would have us believe the Beslan school massacre was a courageous act of defence? When I heard about Beslan I had to stop for several minutes and deal with my heartache for those poor children. In terms of willful inhumanity it was worse than 9-11. Absolutely shocking.

I guess you didn't hear about more 40.000 chechen children systematically killed over 10 years? as long as you don't hear I guess it's alright.

 

[Khan-Ghalgha]

Muslim extremists committing a terrorist attack in a certain country then all of a sudden that country starts targeting muslims in retaliation to their terrorist attack

what that could be? hmmm... *thinking*.... ..... ah right - 9/11! almost forgot, by the way not everyone believes official theory, you may cry - conspiracy as much as you want, the fact is a lot of people dont see it the same way you do, so you can stop bringing that up. Reminds me Bush, he brings it up every time he possibly can and have you noticed how his face lightens up, it's clearly his favourite subject, each time he has a tough question - he goes - but 9/11... terrorists... threat... bla bla bla... 9/11... terrorists... 9/11... terrorists.. terrorists...