America , we feel ur pain , do u feel ours ?

[Cognescenti]

I am sorry to say this but i want to express my own opinion about this. I have a friend from Egypt and we both discussed very much about the palestinian-jew conflict.And this friend always talked very emotionally about arabic victims of this conflict, especially during the war in Lebanon.During this tragic conflict in Lebanon against Hesbollah hundreds of Lebanons died.Which is a tragedy of course.But i wondered then and i asked my friend- hasen't she heard what is hapenning near Egypt, in Sudan..In Darfur conflict about 250 thousands of people were killed. And what?...Victims of Darfur die in silence every day.Im sorry to say this but aren't victims of Lebanon war of palestinian intifada more valuable for many muslims than victims of Darfur?..Lebanon war was in media highlights every day, and tv showed many tragedies of Lebanon's people, and many muslims made marches againts this conflict. They were orgaines immediately after the war was began. Was the same with Darfur?..

Darfur doesn't count (as much). They are being murdered by other Muslims. There is no political advantage to be gained by emphasizing the conflict. The Gulf Arab states and Jordan and Syria use the Palestinian conflict to deflect attention away from their own shortcomings and authoritarian rule and, in the case of Syria, to cynnically try to get the Golan Heights back. Iran uses it to gain influence in the region. Hussein used to make himself a big man in the Arab League. Arafat used it to retain power and pay for his wife's apartment in Paris. Did I leave anybody out?

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

I am sorry to say this but ................ Was the same with Darfur?..

i tried to understand the Darfur situation....news is so confusing. Most probably , take control/ power over natural resources could be the reason behind conflicts. Muslims leaders as usual failed to do anything about it---so far .


But what it has to do anything with Americans killing millions of innocent lives in Iraq & Afghanistan ? If Muslims are bad & kill each other in Africa , it does not mean that US can invade a country on lies & destroy another country to take revenge of 1 tragedy.

 

[Cognescenti]

...
But what it has to do anything with Americans killing millions of innocent lives in Iraq & Afghanistan ? If Muslims are bad & kill each other in Africa , it does not mean that US can invade a country on lies & destroy another country to take revenge of 1 tragedy.

"Millions"? :rollseyes

"Revenge"? :rollseyes Wouldn't it have been easier then to take out Saudi Arabia? Their army was much smaller and most of the hijackers came from there.

Ah...never mind

 

[doodlebug]

Assalam alaykum

I get so annoyed with posters who compare Americans to muslims.


Hellooooooooooooooooooo....last I checked there were a whole heck of a lot of muslim Americans. :rollseyes


Also, to the OP......since you don't live in America do you ever have the opportunity to watch American news or are you basing your opinion on what others are telling you is presented in American media? I ask this because, not for nuthin' , but each and every single day when I flick on abc,nbc,cbs,cnn, fox news or listen to NPR I am pounded with news of casualties in Iraq. I'd say 50% of the news expounds on the casualties. I really only listen to NPR in the car but when I do I am constantly hearing human interest stories from the journalists who are actually brave enough to accumulate these stories.

So I have to wonder where the sense that there's a problem here is coming from.

Quite frankly I'm offended by the generalizations I see on this board of Americans. Someone pointed out the low approval rating that Bush has at the moment which, not to insult your intelligence, is relfective of the fact that Americans do not like the situation we are in.

Maybe if some of you would actually follow the American news you would know that, although its sure to be vetoed, we just passed a bill lowering the funding of money to Iraq which would force our troops to withdraw as early as July.

I find it ironic that one person here is saying that we shouldn't be in Iraq and then another is saying that because our troops withdrew from the mosque held so dearly by shiite muslims, it was attacked and bombed.

Which is it...do we leave or stay?

Were the shiites and sunni's killing each other before we got there? uhhhh no, because a certain dictator was torturing people and had them in such fear that no one could say "boo".

Does no one think that MAYBE Iran has something to do with this? Why isn't there more outrage about Iran fueling the fire? Do y'all want this to become another Shiite regine like Iran? Would that make everyone here happy?

This is why I rarely come to this forum anymore. It's always muslims v. America.

And for the record, America includes Mexico, Candada, etc..... so when you says America is that who you really mean or do you mean the United States of America? If you're gonna insult us I'd at least appreciate it if you'd get our name right.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

"Millions"?

---- ok , thousands ?

Is it justified to kill thousands innocent Muslims in Iraq & Afghanistan if African Musilms are bad & killing each other ?

"Revenge"? .

---if it's not revenge , then what is it ? Or u believe , as Bush claimed , ( not the exact words ) Jesus (p ) told Bush to attack Afghanistan & Iraq , that's why he did so ?

Wouldn't it have been easier then to take out Saudi Arabia? Their army was much smaller and most of the hijackers came from there

U forgot that the 2 most holiest mosques of Muslims are in Saudi Arabia. If US attacks SA , surely riot will start instanly all over the world between Muslims & Christians . I don't know how many suicide bombers will be created if really it happens.

since you don't live in America ..... I am pounded with news of casualties in Iraq.

----I try to watch news on BBC , CNN , SkyNews at least the headlines. I never said that they don't give news about Iraq. It has already been discussed here .......... Read the 2nd post & the reply of that .

In short , dead Iraqi people are only numbers to US / western media. So , we don't see human interst stories about those who lost their lives or lost family members in a war based on lies.


Media coverage was not same about VT tragedy. I m not saying that US media won't cover any home tragedy . I was asking ( writing from memory as i deleted my 1st post ) if it's mean to ask Americans to remember those who are having minimum 30 VT tragedy daily because of US.

..do we leave or stay?

--pl. tell me , why u went there ?

If you're gonna insult us I'd at least appreciate it if you'd get our name right.

---what are u trying to say ???? Who is insulting Americans
here ? Raise question about US foreign policy , media policy.....how it' s an insult ?

we can discuss about these without being angry / feeling insulted. May be ,it's hard but not impossible ......pl. try

 

[doodlebug]

--pl. tell me , why u went there ?

I and many other americans have no idea. That is why there is currently an extremely low approval rating for our president and why the bill was passed to lower funding.

---what are u trying to say ???? Who is insulting Americans
here ? Raise question about US foreign policy , media policy.....how it' s an insult ?

Raising questions is one thing. Generalizing about Americans is another.

 

[Amadeus85]

Salaam/peace;



i tried to understand the Darfur situation....news is so confusing. Most probably , take control/ power over natural resources could be the reason behind conflicts. Muslims leaders as usual failed to do anything about it---so far .


But what it has to do anything with Americans killing millions of innocent lives in Iraq & Afghanistan ? If Muslims are bad & kill each other in Africa , it does not mean that US can invade a country on lies & destroy another country to take revenge of 1 tragedy.

First of all dear Muslim Woman maybe we both live in two different worlds but as far as i know those daily massacres of civilans in Iraq are commited by muslims themselves. And taliban's acts of terror also hurt afghani civilians.
In my previous post i just wanted to say that muslims world never gave enough attention to Darfur genocide, where lets not forget 250 thousands people were killed while victims of Intifada or Lebanon war were always mourned openly andby most Arabs, and other muslims too.Do you see my point of view dear Muslim Woman?

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

muslims world never gave enough attention to Darfur genocide,

I agree but ......

.Do you see my point of view dear Muslim Woman?

--not sure


u want to say , as Muslim world never gave enough attention to Darfur genocide, we must not ask Americans to remember those who are dying daily for /under their occupation in Iraq?

 

[KAding]

Salaam/peace;
I agree but ......
--not sure

u want to say , as Muslim world never gave enough attention to Darfur genocide, we must not ask Americans to remember those who are dying daily for /under their occupation in Iraq?

This is based on the assumption of course that fewer will die when the occupation ends, which is unclear. There might be a correlation between the current killing and the invasion, but there is no such clarity on killing and ending the occupation.

There is plenty of news about Iraq in the United States, there is also a lot of discussion on it. Heck, just this morning each and every sunday political talk show dealt with the subject. Most Americans would want to leave ASAP. What stops them from doing it is the fear of even greater escalation. It is important to remember that Americans seem to assume that having instability in Iraq somehow be bad for them as well, especially in the long term. I think by and large there are three opinions on this:
1. US presense is irrelevant. Iraq will be a mess anyway, we better get out fast
2. US presence is a catalyst for violence
3. US presence is the only thing stopping even more massive sectarian killing

You seem to be firm believer in the second position. But based on what evidence?

Regardless, I think you original point is simply unfair. Firstly, there is quite a lot of attention for Iraq in the US media. Secondly, it is unreasonable to ask more of them. There are always hidden and forgotten conflicts on this planet. Think Congo or Darfur. Millions haved died in these conflicts. I don't think the media in any country have given much attention to it. Heck, how much attention did the slaughter of Shiites and Kurds in Saddams Iraq get? Judging the following post, I would say 'not enough'.

But what irritates me , is how you continou to say " iraqis killing iraqis" ...............IF it were soley the case that Iraqis and killing themselves then american soliders would have no need to be over there.

Funny how they werent "killing" themsleves beforehand.

good point

 

[Amadeus85]

I also sometimes wonder. How is it possible that after Pope' words in Ratisbona, there were tens of thousands of muslims on the streets condemning those words.After Muhammed cartoons there was the same. And i wonder why there are no the same huge protests in muslim world after suicide bombings, beheadings, terroristic attacks...

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

we do protest it just u never get to see it. For example the london bombing thousands of thousands of muslims protested against suicide bombings here in london and elsewhere in the world. So many people i tell ya, my dad was one of them and he was expecting it to be on the news (sky news, bbc news etc) but guess what all the protesting was for nothing. Cos it wasnt on the news, it shocked me all those people protesting for positive and safer future work for nothing. :raging: :enough!:
Same thing in Iraq can you honest say any goods news comes out there in the news. I know there are people in Iraq protesting against terroristic attacks and suicide bombings. And yet the never get to be shown on the news, newspaper etc...

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

.....
just this morning each and every sunday political talk show dealt with the subject.

-- i was not talking about political discussion but the human interest stories .

Featurised news touches our emotions , make us feel like it happened to our dear ones , forced us to think that it could happened to us , brings tear in our eyes.

Heck, how much attention did the slaughter of Shiites and Kurds in Saddams Iraq get?

America is responsible for what going on in Iraq. So , their responsibilites & other countries responsiblities ( including role of media ) can not be same on other issues.


But i do agree that any human suffering is a great tragedy . But when one country is fully responsible for killing of thousands lives in one specific area , i don't understand how & why it sounds ' unfair ' to ask , America , we feel ur pain , do u feel ours ?


I m sure , in future , people ( including America's now a days younger generation ) will look at Americans ( today's adults ) in great surprise & shock & will surely ask : how it happened ? What were u doing ?


May be , some Americans will answer , hey , we had a lot of political discussions on our media & it was enough to do for ' Bad Mozlems' . Don't u know , they did nothing about Darfur but protested against the Pope & cartoons ?

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

I also sometimes wonder. How is it possible that after Pope' words ...

I answered about this in other forum. In short , i do agree that Muslims should protest more & become more conscious about the un-Islamic matters done by Muslims .

But ,it does not mean that we can't protest against the double standard of the media.

The Danish daily did not publish cartoon on Jesus (p) but they were happy to provoke Muslims by publishing cartoons on the Last Prophet (p).


While Christians are used to make fun of their religion , write cartoons / jokes on Jesus (p) -----how Jesus (p) play with devil , thus put Jesus (p) & devil in a same place etc , etc , Muslims don't do this kind of fun about Prophets (pbut).

Still , the daily found it ok to hurt Muslims feelings . LOL . This is what the y call '' Press Freedom.''

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

2 Questions from an article :


One generation ago the peoples of the world asked themselves: Where were the "good" Germans?



Today the peoples of the world are likewise asking themselves: Where are the "good" Americans?


http://www.counterpunch.org/boyle08232006.html

 

[Grace Seeker]

we do protest it just u never get to see it. For example the london bombing thousands of thousands of muslims protested against suicide bombings here in london and elsewhere in the world. So many people i tell ya, my dad was one of them and he was expecting it to be on the news (sky news, bbc news etc) but guess what all the protesting was for nothing. Cos it wasnt on the news, it shocked me all those people protesting for positive and safer future work for nothing. :raging: :enough!:
Same thing in Iraq can you honest say any goods news comes out there in the news. I know there are people in Iraq protesting against terroristic attacks and suicide bombings. And yet the never get to be shown on the news, newspaper etc...

Well, if they can't get on BBC or CNN, how about showing it on Al-Jahzeera?

 

[Grace Seeker]

Salaam/peace;

2 Questions from an article :


One generation ago the peoples of the world asked themselves: Where were the "good" Germans?



Today the peoples of the world are likewise asking themselves: Where are the "good" Americans?


http://www.counterpunch.org/boyle08232006.html

We are limiting Bush's ability to continue to wage this war. We are calling him a liar for the reasons he got us into Iraq.

But would you have had us elect Gore or Kerry? Kerry voted for going into Iraq. He claims to be against it now, but he would have gotten us in there, and Gore would have never done anything at all. He would have let BinLaden flies more planes into more buildings with no retaliation.

If either of them were president, we would still have a mess, perhaps not the same one, but a mess. And both of them would have appointed supreme court judges that would be open to unrestricted abortions. More babies are killed in the USA as a result of abortions everyday, than people are killed in Iraq in a week. Given that Muslims do not approve of abortions, which is worse, killing babies who have done nothing to anyone, or killing grown men who are actually trying to attack you? Of course, this latter group is only a handful of individuals, and this handful is all that the USA is interested in fighting. The rest of the killing is the result of people who either want to get between the USA and those who are legitimate targets, or Muslims who have decided to fight each other for God only knows what reasons.

 

[thirdwatch512]

i pray every night that america gets out of iraq as soon as possible.

but at the same time, you guys need to understand something.. it's not just Americans killing innocents!! in fact, more iraqi's have killed other iraqi's then americans have.

ultimetely, i do blame America. and i do pray every night for the safety of Iaq, and the withdrawal of american troops.

now muslim woman - if you live in America, YOU are an AMERICAN too. so please, don't make it sound as if you are not American!!

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

i pray every night that america gets out of iraq as soon as possible.!!

--may God accepts ur prayer , Ameen.

it's not just Americans killing innocents!! in fact, more iraqi's have killed other iraqi's then americans have.

--if Americans can't stop it , then no need for them to stay to watch .

ultimetely, i do blame America. and i do pray every night for the safety of Iaq, and the withdrawal of american troops.

--again Ameen , Ameen , Ameen.

now muslim woman - if you live in America, YOU are an AMERICAN too. so please, don't make it sound as if you are not American!!

haha but i m not an American.

I visited the beautiful land once.....wonderful , people are also nice . I expected bad / negative behaviours from crowd / some people for my veil but surprisingly nope , not bad experiences as expected/ feared ( except at airport & in a shop ).


Western media give a negative image of US women ......after spending 2 months there , i came back with a positive view of US women ( though don't know anybody personally ) & also Americans. PL. don't think that i m anti-American or anti-Christian. The purpose of this thread is not to hurt any Americans ......but pl. think what can u do to stop the war.

Hope my post will clarify if anyone has any misunderstanding.

 

[Cognescenti]

We are limiting Bush's ability to continue to wage this war. We are calling him a liar for the reasons he got us into Iraq.

But would you have had us elect Gore or Kerry? Kerry voted for going into Iraq. He claims to be against it now, but he would have gotten us in there, and Gore would have never done anything at all. He would have let BinLaden flies more planes into more buildings with no retaliation.

If either of them were president, we would still have a mess, perhaps not the same one, but a mess. And both of them would have appointed supreme court judges that would be open to unrestricted abortions. More babies are killed in the USA as a result of abortions everyday, than people are killed in Iraq in a week. Given that Muslims do not approve of abortions, which is worse, killing babies who have done nothing to anyone, or killing grown men who are actually trying to attack you? Of course, this latter group is only a handful of individuals, and this handful is all that the USA is interested in fighting. The rest of the killing is the result of people who either want to get between the USA and those who are legitimate targets, or Muslims who have decided to fight each other for God only knows what reasons.

The American public is indeed tired of the war and it now seems very likely there will be no tolerant, multisectarian government in Iraq, especially with a timetable for defeat now proposed by the Congress (evidently you approve of this). If that is the way it is to be, so be it. At the very least, an intersectarian civil war is coming in Iraq upon the withdrawal of the only serious restraining force (the US). It will be "sectarian-ethnic-cleansing" writ large. Baghdad will make Beirut of the 1970's look like a garden spot. If all goes "well", and one side gives up quickly, there will several tens of thousands killed and may millions displaced. On the other hand, with outside support (Iran for the Shia and perhaps the Saudis for the Sunni) it could go on for years.

Calling Bush a "liar" might help to solve this problem (even though you have indicted the Democrats as well), but I seriously doubt this will be a productive endeavor and it will forever redefine the word to mean anyone who utters something which subsequently is proven to be untrue. For example, it is Sen. Clinton's argument that if she "had known then what she knows now she would not have voted for war". :? How very manly of her, don't you agree? By your definition, there is no weather reporter who can possibly last a week without being accused of "lies" as he will inevitably predict rain on a day which proves to be sunny.

As for prayer..I suppose that could work, but I think you will need to ask God to cause Amedinajad and King Fahd (is he still alive?) and al Sadr and the Kurdish leaders and whoever is in charge of the Iraqi Sunnis to convert to Christianity so that they might listen to him. On the other hand, it is possible that the Christian God and Allah are one in the same and we are all just arguing about the prophets and that sort of thing. You know what...keep praying. It can't hurt.

 

[Cognescenti]

i pray every night that america gets out of iraq as soon as possible.

but at the same time, you guys need to understand something.. it's not just Americans killing innocents!! in fact, more iraqi's have killed other iraqi's then americans have.

ultimetely, i do blame America. and i do pray every night for the safety of Iaq, and the withdrawal of american troops.

now muslim woman - if you live in America, YOU are an AMERICAN too. so please, don't make it sound as if you are not American!!

I blame Hussein. Had he simply cooperated fully with the UN inspection regime , the interantional pressure to remove sanctions would have been unstoppable
and he would still be in power, burying a few thousand Shia troublemakers in shallow desert graves every once in a while to keep the annoying idol-worshipers in line. And the world would have great entertainment value in watching Kurdish grandmas running for their lives over moutain passes every few years when the anfal campaign got some new funding. Plus, the makers of gold bathroom fixtures would have a great market in Iraq for Hussein's new palaces.

That is what is needed in Iraq. An Arab-speaking, murdering, sadistic, areligious dictator to keep the Shia and Sunni from killing each other in an uncontrolled fashion! Even better...throw in a sociopathic, murdering son to take over when dad gets too old.

Perhaps we should put an ad in Monster.com?