Keep it up Turkey, you know what's best

[MTAFFI]

Do you have any evidence that Allah swt is not punishing them (anyone)??? Do u have any knowledge about this?

I have evidence that supports my claim that Turkey and many other nations have been plagued with earthquakes and other natural disasters since the begining of their existence. Do you have evidence that it is indeed Allah that is punishing these people? It wouldnt matter if the people of Turkey were the most noble, religious muslims in the entire world, that would not stop the tectonic plates beneath them from driving into one another and occasionally busting and causing an earthquake

 

[MTAFFI]

as far as im concerned those protesters werent even muslims, no real muslim unless he was a monafiq and a hypocrite at heart would go saying no to sharia! thats basically saying no to Allah's law, its like saying your a muslim and rejecting the Quran and Muhammad! so therefore the media saying these are 'muslims' going around are just twisting it around as usual for propaganda purposes such as enforcing this image of modern Islam and moderate muslims, moderate Islam and moderate muslim is nothing more than a person who fully follows western ways and throws every Islamic value out the window and just is muslim by name, thats all, they have nothing to do with Islam.

do you live in an islamic state, if not then I suppose you have nothing to do with Islam either then right?

 

[vpb]

brother there are a lot of muslims, whose knowledge on Islam is so weak, so they have felt on propaganda and they see sharia as a bad law, even that they are muslims.

2 weeks ago the imam back in my home town held a lecture, and talked especially about the munafiqs, and he said almost all islamic states have come down as a result of munafiqs, the damage from a munafiq is greater than from a kafir.

Omer r.a was killed by munafiq.
Ali r.a was killed by munafiq.
Othman r.a was killed by the munafiq. etc etc

 

[vpb]

Do you have evidence that it is indeed Allah that is punishing these people?

I didn't make the statement that Allah swt is punishing, I asked you if you have evidence, bc when you make a statement or something anti the statement that is said, you have to give evidence. As far as me, I didn't make any statement.

 

[- Qatada -]

I do think that God would send a prophet to establish a way of life for mankind, that is the whole purpose of religion is it not? What I do not believe is that God has sent anyone to Earth right now that has the ability to justly institute the law of God. I also do not believe that religion is compulsory. A law based on religious beliefs and enforced by a "government" would make religion compulsory, so then what would be the purpose of religion if you were forced to abide by it? If God wanted everyone to worship one religion, have one set of values and live strictly by them he would simply have made it that way would he not? But he gave man free will, he did this so we could choose to follow him, to worship him, and to live by his laws. Man laws are made to ensure the safety and order of our enviroment, Gods laws are to ensure ones rights to heaven, it is mans choice to follow Gods Laws, it is not mans job to enforce Gods law. If the Turks want to live free of oppression and free to speak their minds and live their lives worshipping how they wish that is their choice. This does not make them any less of a Muslim than anyone else, they choose to worship as a Muslim, they may not choose to live under someone who would tell them how to practice their faith. If their faith is good enough they will practice it correctly without anyone forcing them.

God has given us the freedom of choice so we can worship Him of our own free-will. This means that He created us to see if we would submit to Him when the clear proofs came to us.

Once the proofs are manifest - i.e. the Creator created us so we would be dutiful to Him, then the person doesn't really have a choice - they have to submit. If there wasn't a reason to submit - then why would anyone need to? It's like saying - if you take God's message in jest you'll be rewarded? Do you really think that's true? No it isn't.


Shall We then treat the (submitting) Muslims like the Mujrimûn (criminals, polytheists and disbelievers, etc.)?

What is the matter with you? How do you judge?

[Qur'an [the Pen] 68: 35-6]


God sent Messengers' who warned mankind of the true purpose of their life, and that is to submit to the One who created us, the One who sustains us, the One who causes us to die, and the One who we will be ressurected by on the Day of Judgement when there will be no bargaining, but every person will be judged on his/her own deeds, and whether they obeyed the Messenger sent to them.


Those who obeyed the Messenger and did good to please their Creator will be rewarded for their good, whereas those who disbelieved and were too arrogant to worship God will be punished for their disbelief, and they will have no share of the hereafter, instead - they will be recompensed for their good in this life only - since that's all they strived for right?




Regards.

 

[rania2820]

as far as im concerned those protesters werent even muslims, no real muslim unless he was a monafiq and a hypocrite at heart would go saying no to sharia! thats basically saying no to Allah's law, its like saying your a muslim and rejecting the Quran and Muhammad! so therefore the media saying these are 'muslims' going around are just twisting it around as usual for propaganda purposes such as enforcing this image of modern Islam and moderate muslims, moderate Islam and moderate muslim is nothing more than a person who fully follows western ways and throws every Islamic value out the window and just is muslim by name, thats all, they have nothing to do with Islam.

i couldn't agree more.they are basically rejecting the Quran and Sunnah and this is an act of Kuffr for sure! may Allah guide them all. Ameen!

I have evidence that supports my claim that Turkey and many other nations have been plagued with earthquakes and other natural disasters since the begining of their existence. Do you have evidence that it is indeed Allah that is punishing these people? It wouldnt matter if the people of Turkey were the most noble, religious muslims in the entire world, that would not stop the tectonic plates beneath them from driving into one another and occasionally busting and causing an earthquake

A country could be sitting on the biggest fault line in the world.and not have one earthquake if Allah didn't want it to happen.

 

[MTAFFI]

i couldn't agree more.they are basically rejecting the Quran and Sunnah and this is an act of Kuffr for sure! may Allah guide them all. Ameen!



A country could be sitting on the biggest fault line in the world.and not have one earthquake if Allah didn't want it to happen.

So I suppose that Allah has never wished in the history of the world for an earthquake not to happen, no matter how good some countries may have been, is that what you are saying. This would almost be like saying that Allah is not a merciful God. Many civilizations have been wiped out because of natural disaster, Allah allows this to happen because it is vital to the existence of our planet not because a group of people are bad. What of the 200,000 in turkey that were protesting for an Islamic state, is it also their fault that they had such a terrible tragedy like they had as well or are they just casualties of Allahs wrath?

 

[MTAFFI]

I didn't make the statement that Allah swt is punishing, I asked you if you have evidence, bc when you make a statement or something anti the statement that is said, you have to give evidence. As far as me, I didn't make any statement.

I told you that I do have evidence that this country sits on a fault line and has been plagued by this sort of thing since the creation of earth, it is not because any group of people live there. To think in such a manner is really pretty primitive.

 

[- Qatada -]

So I suppose that Allah has never wished in the history of the world for an earthquake not to happen, no matter how good some countries may have been, is that what you are saying. This would almost be like saying that Allah is not a merciful God. Many civilizations have been wiped out because of natural disaster, Allah allows this to happen because it is vital to the existence of our planet not because a group of people are bad. What of the 200,000 in turkey that were protesting for an Islamic state, is it also their fault that they had such a terrible tragedy like they had as well or are they just casualties of Allahs wrath?

Allaah punishes a people once the evil becomes widespread. This is what He did for the nations before, and again - i'll give you the example of the Children of Israeel who were punished for their evil deeds and disobedience to the Messenger. You believe this to be true anyway since you're a christian and believe in the Old Testament.

Once Aa'isha (may Allaah be pleased with her) asked God's Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him) if God would punish a people even if there were good among them? He said yes, if the evil becomes widespread. Why? Because the people who are obedient to God also have to enjoin the good and forbid the evil (which was also the job of the Prophets), and when this isn't practised, evil becomes even more widespread and therefore Allaah gives them a limited amount of time to mend their ways, repent and submit to God. If they persist in their sins - then God punishes them. Why shouldn't He? If they're trangsgressing the limits set by Him?


Then the people will be raised back to God on the Day of Judgement, and then those who believed and did good will be rewarded for their good, but those who rejected the truth will be punished for their evil.



Regards.

 

[MTAFFI]

God has given us the freedom of choice so we can worship Him of our own free-will. This means that He created us to see if we would submit to Him when the clear proofs came to us.

Once the proofs are manifest - i.e. the Creator created us so we would be dutiful to Him, then the person doesn't really have a choice - they have to submit. If there wasn't a reason to submit - then why would anyone need to? It's like saying - if you take God's message in jest you'll be rewarded? Do you really think that's true? No it isn't.


Shall We then treat the (submitting) Muslims like the Mujrimûn (criminals, polytheists and disbelievers, etc.)?

What is the matter with you? How do you judge?

[Qur'an [the Pen] 68: 35-6]


God sent Messengers' who warned mankind of the true purpose of their life, and that is to submit to the One who created us, the One who sustains us, the One who causes us to die, and the One who we will be ressurected by on the Day of Judgement when there will be no bargaining, but every person will be judged on his/her own deeds, and whether they obeyed the Messenger sent to them.


Those who obeyed the Messenger and did good to please their Creator will be rewarded for their good, whereas those who disbelieved and were too arrogant to worship God will be punished for their disbelief, and they will have no share of the hereafter, instead - they will be recompensed for their good in this life only - since that's all they strived for right?




Regards.

This is all good and great but we are speaking about an islamic government here. People can worship Islam and follow Islam to the T without a government forcing them to, and many do everyday. Your own Quran says that religion is not compulsory, so if it is not why is there a need for an Islamic government? Man simply does not have the authority to assert and regulate Gods law. It is up to man to follow Gods law, if you dont then you will be judged for it. Only God can appoint the one who will fully institute and establish his law and power. That being will come on the day of reckoning, he does not exist in our society today, therefore your Islamic law is no more than a theory on how things should work, until the Lord decides your countries ruled by Shariah law will fail as they all have thus far. ALL politics are corrupt, religion is pure, you cannot combine the two. If you put clean water in dirty water, the water will never be clean again unless the dirty water is removed. (Dirty = Politics, Clean = religion)

 

[MTAFFI]

Allaah punishes a people once the evil becomes widespread. This is what He did for the nations before, and again - i'll give you the example of the Children of Israeel who were punished for their evil deeds and disobedience to the Messenger. You believe this to be true anyway since you're a christian and believe in the Old Testament.

Once Aa'isha (may Allaah be pleased with her) asked God's Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him) if God would punish a people even if there were good among them? He said yes, if the evil becomes widespread. Why? Because the people who are obedient to God also have to enjoin the good and forbid the evil (which was also the job of the Prophets), and when this isn't practised, evil becomes even more widespread and therefore Allaah gives them a limited amount of time to mend their ways, repent and submit to God. If they persist in their sins - then God punishes them. Why shouldn't He? If they're trangsgressing the limits set by Him?


Then the people will be raised back to God on the Day of Judgement, and then those who believed and did good will be rewarded for their good, but those who rejected the truth will be punished for their evil.



Regards.

Please explain tornado alley for me then, is this God punishing these people every year? Even though there is not widespread evil in this area? Even though in many areas there are no people in these areas. I dont believe so, it is just natural occurances that have been proven by science in fact. The same goes for turkey and all the other places these things happen. To say that it is not a natural occurance is just blind. Some things may happen that are Gods will but to say that the Earthquake in Turkey happened because the people dont want an islamic state is just plain dumb

 

[- Qatada -]

This is all good and great but we are speaking about an islamic government here. People can worship Islam and follow Islam to the T without a government forcing them to, and many do everyday. Your own Quran says that religion is not compulsory, so if it is not why is there a need for an Islamic government? Man simply does not have the authority to assert and regulate Gods law. It is up to man to follow Gods law, if you dont then you will be judged for it. Only God can appoint the one who will fully institute and establish his law and power. That being will come on the day of reckoning, he does not exist in our society today, therefore your Islamic law is no more than a theory on how things should work, until the Lord decides your countries ruled by Shariah law will fail as they all have thus far. ALL politics are corrupt, religion is pure, you cannot combine the two. If you put clean water in dirty water, the water will never be clean again unless the dirty water is removed. (Dirty = Politics, Clean = religion)

Politics isn't dirty Allaah has sent us a Messenger who ran a state in Medina with Justice and fairness, whether it was justice for the Muslims or Non Muslims. And since God sent a Messenger to tell us the difference between wrong and right - He also explained to us how to run our own state - why shouldn't that be if we want to practise our religion freely? Those who don't want to practise it can simply leave can't they? That's the simple answer.

That's the reason why the Muslims at the time of God's Messenger left their home city of Makkah and moved to Medina - out of their own free will since they were being tortured for practising their religion in Makkah. So anyone who doesn't like Islaam doesn't need to get involved, and those who want to practise their religion freely without fear of persecution from the disbelievers - they can move to a state where the law of God is being applied.



Regards.

 

[- Qatada -]

Please explain tornado alley for me then, is this God punishing these people every year? Even though there is not widespread evil in this area? Even though in many areas there are no people in these areas. I dont believe so, it is just natural occurances that have been proven by science in fact. The same goes for turkey and all the other places these things happen. To say that it is not a natural occurance is just blind. Some things may happen that are Gods will but to say that the Earthquake in Turkey happened because the people dont want an islamic state is just plain dumb

Some things are caused by Allaah for a greater benefit, we may not know of that greater benefit yet. However there may be a great wisdom behind that - which we don't know of yet.

Therefore not all these natural occurences have to be punishments from Allaah, yet at the same time - we should believe in Him and remain obedient so we are saved from His punishment of this life and the hereafter, and so we can be rewarded with a great reward in this life and the next.



Regards.

 

[MTAFFI]

Politics isn't dirty Allaah has sent us a Messenger who ran a state in Medina with Justice and fairness, whether it was justice for the Muslims or Non Muslims. And since God sent a Messenger to tell us the difference between wrong and right - He also explained to us how to run our own state - why shouldn't that be if we want to practise our religion freely? Those who don't want to practise it can simply leave can't they? That's the simple answer.

That's the reason why the Muslims at the time of God's Messenger left their home city of Makkah and moved to Medina - out of their own free will since they were being tortured for practising their religion in Makkah. So anyone who doesn't like Islaam doesn't need to get involved, and those who want to practise their religion freely without fear of persecution from the disbelievers - they can move to a state where the law of God is being applied.



Regards.

Politics are without a doubt dirty, Islamic law may have been as pure as the religion when it was executed by a prophet that was sent from God, but this is my point. Do you know of any prophets sent here today? Do you know of a single man on Earth that is free of sin, that is uncorruptable, that has the ability to execute the law of God without bias, outside interference, without evil? If you say you do, then I dont know if I believe you. Politics are dirty because the give a man power, and when man gets power he almost inevitably becomes corrupted by his power. If you combine this with religion, then you are corrupting the religion as well.

People left their homes then because times were much different. Today who leaves their home to live in an Islamic state? Not near as many as those who leave and live in a democracy or secular society. Again I ask you to show me one Islamic state that has been run and could be considered a success, without any corruption, even the prophets state when he died, it died with him.

 

[noodles]

I do think that God would send a prophet to establish a way of life for mankind, that is the whole purpose of religion is it not? What I do not believe is that God has sent anyone to Earth right now that has the ability to justly institute the law of God. I also do not believe that religion is compulsory. A law based on religious beliefs and enforced by a "government" would make religion compulsory, so then what would be the purpose of religion if you were forced to abide by it? If God wanted everyone to worship one religion, have one set of values and live strictly by them he would simply have made it that way would he not? But he gave man free will, he did this so we could choose to follow him, to worship him, and to live by his laws. Man laws are made to ensure the safety and order of our environment, Gods laws are to ensure ones rights to heaven, it is mans choice to follow Gods Laws, it is not mans job to enforce Gods law. If the Turks want to live free of oppression and free to speak their minds and live their lives worshipping how they wish that is their choice. This does not make them any less of a Muslim than anyone else, they choose to worship as a Muslim, they may not choose to live under someone who would tell them how to practice their faith. If their faith is good enough they will practice it correctly without anyone forcing them.

Let me clarify somethings for you.

1) There "will" be no laws if not for religion. Why? you may ask. Have you ever considered the possibility what you regard 'laws' set by a government can also be interpreted as a religion too? For example, if you construct a society, would you consider having a death penalty? is it right or is it wrong? Who in this diverse world has the ability to discern if a murderer should live or if he should die. Once you lay down your belief as the law, you clearly define it as religion. Even more so, if you make a group of people accept your beliefs it becomes organized religion.

Simply put, a government cannot function with out a foundation. And these foundations are taken from a diversity of religions. In essence its just a pick and choose of different cultures.

2) In response to "Man laws are made to ensure the safety and order of our environment" I suggest you rephrase that, simple put, sounds wrong.

Let me explain, if the laws were to passed due to the opinions of a select few, then, like I mentioned above, you can conclude that they are enforcing their religion onto others.

Simply put, you cannot establish a functional society without morals, they had to have come from somewhere, and that in the simplest terms is my belief.

This is all good and great but we are speaking about an islamic government here. People can worship Islam and follow Islam to the T without a government forcing them to, and many do everyday. Your own Quran says that religion is not compulsory, so if it is not why is there a need for an Islamic government? Man simply does not have the authority to assert and regulate Gods law. It is up to man to follow Gods law, if you dont then you will be judged for it. Only God can appoint the one who will fully institute and establish his law and power. That being will come on the day of reckoning, he does not exist in our society today, therefore your Islamic law is no more than a theory on how things should work, until the Lord decides your countries ruled by Shariah law will fail as they all have thus far. ALL politics are corrupt, religion is pure, you cannot combine the two. If you put clean water in dirty water, the water will never be clean again unless the dirty water is removed. (Dirty = Politics, Clean = religion)

But one cannot survive without the other. If no political system exists, man is free to do as he wills and what he wills is not always good. I'll be honest with you, it is up to the person to discern which political system works for them and it is my belief that Islamic sharia is the one that accepts equality. I haven't seen a proper example in the present day and age, and I most probably wont.

 

[MTAFFI]

Some things are caused by Allaah for a greater benefit, we may not know of that greater benefit yet. However there may be a great wisdom behind that - which we don't know of yet.

Therefore not all these natural occurences have to be punishments from Allaah, yet at the same time - we should believe in Him and remain obedient so we are saved from His punishment of this life and the hereafter, and so we can be rewarded with a great reward in this life and the next.



Regards.

Actually most things in nature can be explained for the greater benefit of our world. If you watch discovery channel for a week straight you can learn about all you need to know. Earthquakes, tornados, hurricanes, global warming etc. are all part of our planets life cycle. They all have scientific explanations and with the proper technology can be calculated as to when or about when they will happen. Can you calculate with an instrument when God will unleash his wrath upon the Earth? I think not

In any case my point to that whole comment was to say to whoever that the Earthquake in Turkey was not punishment from God because they wish to not live under an islamic state. It was a natural occurance that will inevitablely happen again no matter what government is in control.

 

[- Qatada -]

Politics are without a doubt dirty, Islamic law may have been as pure as the religion when it was executed by a prophet that was sent from God, but this is my point. Do you know of any prophets sent here today? Do you know of a single man on Earth that is free of sin, that is uncorruptable, that has the ability to execute the law of God without bias, outside interference, without evil? If you say you do, then I dont know if I believe you. Politics are dirty because the give a man power, and when man gets power he almost inevitably becomes corrupted by his power. If you combine this with religion, then you are corrupting the religion as well.

People left their homes then because times were much different. Today who leaves their home to live in an Islamic state? Not near as many as those who leave and live in a democracy or secular society. Again I ask you to show me one Islamic state that has been run and could be considered a success, without any corruption, even the prophets state when he died, it died with him.

I agree with you that there are no people today who are prone from error. However, when the muslims elect someone to be a Khalifah - they choose the most pious among them. I.e. After the passing away of God's final Messenger (peace be upon him) - the most pious among the people was Abu Bakr, after him Umar, then Uthman and then Ali.

Now we know that they were really just, they loved, hoped, and feared Allaah a great deal. This is the characteristic one needs when they look for a leader since the person is scared of being disobedient to God because they know that they will be raised back infront of God to be judged on their actions and deeds performed in this life. Yet they also hope for reward from Allaah in the hereafter if they are a just ruler. This is emphasised in many Prophetic sayings, especially in regard to being just.


The Messenger of Allaah said: "I counsel you to have Taqwaa [God consciessness] of Allaah and to hear and obey, even if an Abyssinian slave were to command you. For, verily, whoever amongst you lives (to grown old), he will see many differences. So stick to my Sunnah [path] and the Sunnah of the rightly guided khaleefahs. Cling tightly onto it and hold onto it with your molar teeth. And beware of newly invented matters. For, indeed, every newly invented matter is an innovation, and every innovation is a thing that leads astray, and everything that leads astray is in the Hellfire."

[Authentically recorded in Abu Dawud]


And if we look into the Islamic history - you can see the justice of the companions of God's final Messenger, since they had the best example to follow - Muhammad, the servant and final Messenger of God Almighty.

So we can have an example to follow, since these people were humans just like us. They weren't divine in any way, yet they were aware of God and knew that we are responsible for our actions and deeds. They were successful, in this life and the next.



Regards.

 

[- Qatada -]

Actually most things in nature can be explained for the greater benefit of our world. If you watch discovery channel for a week straight you can learn about all you need to know. Earthquakes, tornados, hurricanes, global warming etc. are all part of our planets life cycle. They all have scientific explanations and with the proper technology can be calculated as to when or about when they will happen. Can you calculate with an instrument when God will unleash his wrath upon the Earth? I think not

In any case my point to that whole comment was to say to whoever that the Earthquake in Turkey was not punishment from God because they wish to not live under an islamic state. It was a natural occurance that will inevitablely happen again no matter what government is in control.

God can punish a people for their evil, yet He can do it in a time when He knows its right for the benefit of the earth for example - out of His eternal Wisdom. Only Allaah knows since He is the Most Wise, All Knowing.

 

[MTAFFI]

Let me clarify somethings for you.

1) There "will" be no laws if not for religion. Why? you may ask. Have you ever considered the possibility what you regard 'laws' set by a government can also be interpreted as a religion too? For example, if you construct a society, would you consider having a death penalty? is it right or is it wrong? Who in this diverse world has the ability to discern if a murderer should live or if he should die. Once you lay down your belief as the law, you clearly define it as religion. Even more so, if you make a group of people accept your beliefs it becomes organized religion.

Religion and Law are two separate things, although they share many commonalities that does not mean that one needs the other to survive or exist. As man has evolved and progressed over millenia certain things have been realized. Murder is wrong, rape is wrong, stealing is wrong, etc. No one needs a religion to help them identify this, I am not saying that religion is needed, I am just saying that man can recognize this without the help of religion. The difference between the two is really in the minuscule things, for instance telling a lie, wearing a niqab, dishonoring your mother or father, adultery, etc. (Granted these things may not be so minuscule to you or I but to some they are and that is their choice) These are all things that effect an individual and not the society that the individual lives in or those who live around the individual. This is what makes law what it is and religion what it is. Religion governs ones self, law governs everyone. I hope that clarifies for you.

But one cannot survive without the other. If no political system exists, man is free to do as he wills and what he wills is not always good. I'll be honest with you, it is up to the person to discern which political system works for them and it is my belief that Islamic sharia is the one that accepts equality. I haven't seen a proper example in the present day and age, and I most probably wont.

I agree with you here, that if there is no political system than society would be sickening, and I agree that it is up to each person what political system works for them. I agree that there is no example of a proper Islamic state, and in fact there isnt an example of a perfect government anywhere and I dont think there ever will be. This is why I dont think we should mix religious law and man law. It is also why I dont like to see the Turks get repremanded by some on this site for wanting a secular society. They are no different than any other Muslims in this world, they wish to live in peace, and they know they are more likely to get it in a secular society where they are not forced to live a lifestyle

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Ok I read this article before. Is it just me or are people missing the hypocracy in this article? One of the women who is protesting is claiming she'll lose her freedoms on a Sharia State. Alright well thats her opinion. Then she says she doesnt want ot have to be forced to cover and that she wants to be free. Err ok...what about the current secular goverment that are literally pulling off Hijabs from people wearing it? Its ok to make someone take it off or rather pull it off yourself but its the end of the world to have people keep some dignity? My God thats just pathetic.