Why do you believe what you do? And how did you get to that belief?

[جوري]

As a Muslim who sumbits to the will of god, weather that will manifests itself as a bountiful harvest or a Tsunami that kills 500k, human values are surely irrelevent?

Regards

What does this mean?

 

[barney]

What does this mean?

In a Nutshell, "whatever Gods actions are...who are we to judge them by Human values?"

I kind of start drivelling at this time of the morning, so a initially simple statement got mucked up in its delivery.

 

[جوري]

In a Nutshell, "whatever Gods actions are...who are we to judge them by Human values?"

I kind of start drivelling at this time of the morning, so a initially simple statement got mucked up in its delivery.

Got it --thanks... I am a bit slow myself and it isn't confined to any hour!

peace!

 

[ranma1/2]

do you really think that anyone who worships god sees him as "vengeful and abusive"?

Absolutly, fred phelps is a great example of someone that believes in a hateful god.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Phelps

Not to mention the countless individuals of most religions that think there god hates non believers. Thankfully most people I know arentl like Phelps.

 

[ranma1/2]

When did this thread become "lets attack Islam." :? Everyone here I'm sure came on their own. At least respect it! If we worshipped an abusive God(Astaghfirullah), would we be sitting here discussing with you? I highly doubt that...!

It hasnt, some have brought up a discussion about why someone should worship a violent, vengeful god as presented in many religions.

 

[barney]

It hasnt, some have brought up a discussion about why someone should worship a violent, vengeful god as presented in many religions.

Yeah, I was trawling about trying to find that.:rollseyes

 

[snakelegs]

just to clear up any misunderstandings

there were these 2 posts

Originally Posted by Pygoscelis (to england)
You're right of course. He has little objective proof of his claim that God is good and kind instead of vengeful and abusive, but the opposite view holds no better to objective verification. At least his view is optimistic though. The true question is why would somebody be able to live with the opposite view without bursting into either tears or rage at God. And how could they respect themselves bowing down to him?

which was in reply to england who said he regarded the god of islam as evil blah blah blah. (don't have time to search for that post)

this thread should not be used to bash islam or any other religion. :enough!:

my point is that they do not see it the way you do. you are not looking at god through their eyes, so you do not have the full picture. they do not see god as evil, abusive or vengeful etc etc - if they did, they would not believe in him. to me that seems obvious. so the question pygo posed is silly.
nobody would worship a god that they considered evil, etc etc.
:hiding:

 

[vpb]

May Allah save us from being among ignorants!

 

[snakelegs]

i just noticed that the questions have been changed so i have voted "other".
i received no religious teaching (pro or con) from my parents (one was agnostic, one was atheist) and i have been agnostic all my life. most of my life i never even thought about god. in the last decade i have come to believe in god through personal experience. music and the wonders of nature have been my vehicles.
i do not believe that god belongs to any religion or that any religion has a monopoly on god. i think he is beyond religion and is too vast to be confined. my personal belief is that god is one, and it doesn't matter at all whether some see him as one or 10,000 - he remains one, ever-existing and unchanging.

 

[vpb]

snakelegs, just to inform you , not that you were talking anything about Islam, but just to mention that Islam is not a religion, it's a deen, a way of life, so God brought to us not a religion, but a way of life, does it seem a way-of-life to be a monopoly of God to you? you also have a way of life that you live your life , it's just not the God's ordered way-of-life, it's different from the one God gave us, or the muslim-way-of-life (muslim = the one who submits to God),and the way of life God brought (not religion) is perfect and it's impossible for you not to have a way of life bc you do , so I think you have been sticked in a monopoly also . . I see 'religion' as something that you live a way of life, but you also have a plug-in or a addon(package) which is the religion in this case. Islam in this case is the complete software with its addons(plugins), it's a guide which tells you how to behave in every aspect so you don't fall anywhere and most important , key point, the winning of Jannah in afterlife (may Allah swt make us among those who enter Jannah) . So don't see Islam as a religion.

see the arabic word in red square, it says 'deen' (dinen) .
Whosoever seeks, other than Islam, a deen, it will not be accepted from him and he, in the Hereafter, is among the losers.) [Qur’an 3:85]

But people translate the word deen as 'religion', bc there is no adequate word in english or maybe other languages too, that can describe the meaning of it.

 

[snakelegs]

snakelegs, just to inform you , not that you were talking anything about Islam, but just to mention that Islam is not a religion, it's a deen, a way of life, so God brought to us not a religion, but a way of life, does it seem a way-of-life to be a monopoly of God to you? you also have a way of life that you live your life , it's just not the God's ordered way-of-life, it's different from the one God gave us, or the muslim-way-of-life (muslim = the one who submits to God),and the way of life God brought (not religion) is perfect and it's impossible for you not to have a way of life bc you do , so I think you have been sticked in a monopoly also . . I see 'religion' as something that you live a way of life, but you also have a plug-in or a addon(package) which is the religion in this case. Islam in this case is the complete software with its addons(plugins), it's a guide which tells you how to behave in every aspect so you don't fall anywhere and most important , key point, the winning of Jannah in afterlife (may Allah swt make us among those who enter Jannah) . So don't see Islam as a religion.

see the arabic word in red square, it says 'deen' (dinen) .
Whosoever seeks, other than Islam, a deen, it will not be accepted from him and he, in the Hereafter, is among the losers.) [Qur’an 3:85]

But people translate the word deen as 'religion', bc there is no adequate word in english or maybe other languages too, that can describe the meaning of it.

yes, i am aware that islam is not just a "religion" but an entire way of life, and even more than that - it provides a complete social/legal system.
in my own personal opinion, islam is not wrong. i also don't think that i am right or have the answers.
yes, we all have a way of life. i try to live my life in the best way i know how but the difference is that i do not advocate my way of life for anyone else.
i can not believe that a person will go to hell because he has not followed a specific religion.
personally, i do not believe in an after life. i also don't believe that it doesn't exist - i have no belief about it, so it is hard for me to think in terms of jannat or jehenum. my beliefs are purely based on my experiences and i have had no experience that has led me to believe in an afterlife.
ultimately, i do not know. (which is exactly why i am an agnostic).
btw, your analogy with software and plug-ins is great!

 

[Pygoscelis]

they do not see god as evil, abusive or vengeful etc etc

First they appear to define evil differently. They seem to declare that whatever God says is evil, is therefore evil, no matter what that is. By definition they can not believe God is evil.

As for vengeful, numerous bible verses at least directly assign that label to God. Earlier in this thread somebody said there is a similar designation in the Quran?

As for abusive, that is a matter of opinion yes. But people who are abused rarely realize it. They most often fault themselves instead of the abuser. Talk to any victim of domestic abuse for example and you'll see my point.

The behaviours and doctrines and stances are objectively stated. God will punish you if you do so and so. God hates X and likes Y. These beliefs are all clearly understood by all sides. Where subjectivity comes into it is when we judge them.

As for not judging God by human morals - thats also a matter of prespective. From my vantage point, God is imaginary, a creation of the relgions who worship him. So it is enirely appropriate to judge it on human morals. We need to decide whether we find the belief system productive or destructive, socially healthy or not, dangerous or not.

From the vantage point of a believer, we still do judge God. Most decide he is "good". That is a judgment. We have no other criteria to use in our judgement than human morality - since we are not Gods.

nobody would worship a god that they considered evil, etc etc.
:hiding:

Even if he was seen as evil, could people not worship out of fear? Many pagan gods were like this. You sacrificed to the Evil thunder God, not because you loved him, but because you hoped to assuade his wrath from striking you down.

Also, it seems that some will follow God simply because he is God, and has ultimate power. Essentially the ultimate case of Might Makes Right.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

It hasnt, some have brought up a discussion about why someone should worship a violent, vengeful god as presented in many religions.

So it automatically pulled Islam into the question. thats my point.

Unless you yourself are the one worshipping such a God (Na Audhubillah), no one has the right so assume someone worships an evil God. It's a really pathetic notion.

 

[- Qatada -]

Nah, they'll soon come to know anyway. They can argue all they want about whether God exists, or what the purpose of life is - but they're always in a state of confusion. We're waiting, and they too are waiting. Then Allaah will judge us on what we differ, and none will be dealt with unjustly.

 

[جوري]

Nah, they'll soon come to know anyway. They can argue all they want about whether God exists, or what the purpose of life is - but they're always in a state of confusion. We're waiting, and they too are waiting. Then Allaah will judge us on what we differ, and none will be dealt with unjustly.

How true are your words--

فَارْتَقِبْ إِنَّهُم مُّرْتَقِبُونَ {59}​

[Pickthal 44:59] Wait then Lo! they (too) are waiting.


*****

 

[InToTheRain]

Those who reject God based on their standards of what they think is right and wrong have some seriouslyflawed logic.

"I don't want a god that kills, people" or "I dont want a god that doesn't look like me" or "I don't want a god I can't see" or " I WANT MORE THEN ONE GOD!"...I mean where does it end? If you are going to judge god and only accept him according to your standards then you have not accepted the FACT that you as a human are not perfect, you cannot diffrentiate between whats right or wrong in most cases and therefore are in no position to know what is Most Just.

not only is it flawed, but it is also selfish to want a god according to what you desire. This is the very reason Allah(SWT) has haad to sent massengers and prophets countless times, because people with such mentality ultimately change the message Allah(SWT) gave to our beloved Massengers and Prophets (Peace be upon them all). If you knew Islam you would know how much mercy the one true God has shown upon man kind and favors he did for us.

Not only is it flawed and selfish, but arrogant. you who bend your backs over for another created being similiar to you and are forced to adhere to their laws even though they have countless flaws; what right do you have to demand anything from God? I myself would be ashamed to demand anything.

Then again thats just me. However without a doubt you will come to know...its a question of sooner then later...

peace

 

[Pygoscelis]

that you as a human are not perfect, you cannot diffrentiate between whats right or wrong in most cases and therefore are in no position to know what is Most Just.

This right here is one of the biggest things in religion that concerns me.

You can not differentiate between right and wrong without being told what is right or wrong by a perceived God? That turns morality completely on its head, taking it away from empathy and kindness and placing it squarely in the realm of obedience to a perceived authority figure. I see that as very dangerous.

 

[- Qatada -]

This right here is one of the biggest things in religion that concerns me.

You can not differentiate between right and wrong without being told what is right or wrong by a perceived God? That turns morality completely on its head, taking it away from empathy and kindness and placing it squarely in the realm of obedience to a perceived authority figure. I see that as very dangerous.

You're doing the exact same thing by following the 'morals' of society which aren't always morals afterall. You're a slave to society, and i'd rather be a slave to the One who created me and Sustains me than to the oppression, obedience and injustice of imperfect humans. Especially when these 'morals' are for the benefit of the ones higher in social power etc.

 

[snakelegs]

First they appear to define evil differently. They seem to declare that whatever God says is evil, is therefore evil, no matter what that is. By definition they can not believe God is evil.

not sure what you're trying to say here. people who follow religions believe that certain things are evil, yes. but they most certainly do not believe that god is evil, so the question about whether you'd worship a "good" god or a "bad" god is silly, because no-one believes their god is evil.

As for vengeful, numerous bible verses at least directly assign that label to God. Earlier in this thread somebody said there is a similar designation in the Quran?

i have read the bible (not the NT) and the qur'an tho i cannot claim to be savy in either. yes, he is a god of vengence but he is more than that - he is also a god of mercy and benevolence. something that i think outsiders often miss. that's what i mean when i say that you are judging something from your standpoint and not seeing it with their eyes, so i think you are not seeing the whole picture. i am aware that i am not seeing the whole picture either, but i try.

As for abusive, that is a matter of opinion yes. But people who are abused rarely realize it. They most often fault themselves instead of the abuser. Talk to any victim of domestic abuse for example and you'll see my point.

does this mean that they need to be rescued for their own good?

The behaviours and doctrines and stances are objectively stated. God will punish you if you do so and so. God hates X and likes Y. These beliefs are all clearly understood by all sides. Where subjectivity comes into it is when we judge them.

exactly.

As for not judging God by human morals - thats also a matter of prespective. From my vantage point, God is imaginary, a creation of the relgions who worship him. So it is enirely appropriate to judge it on human morals. We need to decide whether we find the belief system productive or destructive, socially healthy or not, dangerous or not.

of course you form opinions on these things. so do i. but i think it needs to be kept in mind that we are limited in our grasp.

From the vantage point of a believer, we still do judge God. Most decide he is "good". That is a judgment. We have no other criteria to use in our judgement than human morality - since we are not Gods.



Even if he was seen as evil, could people not worship out of fear? Many pagan gods were like this. You sacrificed to the Evil thunder God, not because you loved him, but because you hoped to assuade his wrath from striking you down.

Also, it seems that some will follow God simply because he is God, and has ultimate power. Essentially the ultimate case of Might Makes Right.

personally, i do not care for religion, tho i do believe in god. and i do not like the use of fear or promise of reward as motivation either. but believers obviously see more than that.
this thread is supposed to be about why you believe what you believe and not about What's Wrong With Their Religion. unfortunately, it got a bit side tracked early on.
sometimes it is a challenge to try to see things from another's eyes and we will always be limited in what we see.
but i think it is worth the effort.

 

[Grace Seeker]

You're doing the exact same thing by following the 'morals' of society which aren't always morals afterall. You're a slave to society, and i'd rather be a slave to the One who created me and Sustains me than to the oppression, obedience and injustice of imperfect humans. Especially when these 'morals' are for the benefit of the ones higher in social power etc.

Though don't you think that God's call to right living goes beyond Allah simply being THE authority. I mean if it is all about who is the biggest guy with the biggest stick, I guess that is one way to figure out who is in control. But I see God as wooing us, not threatening us to submit to him. He calls us to follow not for his good, but for our own. And the punishments that are in store for us, are not punishments he subjects us to if we don't toe the line, they are realities we are destined to stumble headlong, but for him acting to save us.

That's why I think the picture of hell is real, but of an evil God casting us there is not the best metaphor. It is more like we are already hell bent on our own personal and corporate destruction, but God comes offering a way out, but that way out means following his way, no longer our own.