Keep it up Turkey, you know what's best

[Amadeus85]

the armenians massacre muslims.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

 

[yahia12]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

wikipedia is not reliable.

http://www.azerigenocide.org/hist/hist18.htm

armenian crusaders with backup to kill muslims.

http://www.armenianreality.com/armenian_terror/history_as_poison_and_antidode.html

 

[Muezzin]

Guys, when topics get sidetracked, I tend to delete a lot of posts, a lot of people get upset, and everybody loses. So how about we all just stick to the subject in the first post?

 

[MTAFFI]

Did anyone see the article a few days ago where the US and the EU warned the Turks not to let the military intervene in the electoral process? I am looking for it right now and I will post it when I find it, but isnt it funny that while many say the US is fight Islam, we will still fight for a Muslims right to an Islamic government?

Here is the link
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/04/28/turkey.election/index.html

 

[- Qatada -]

Did anyone see the article a few days ago where the US and the EU warned the Turks not to let the military intervene in the electoral process? I am looking for it right now and I will post it when I find it, but isnt it funny that while many say the US is fight Islam, we will still fight for a Muslims right to an Islamic government?

If you've studied the history of turkey, you'll see how the Islamic Caliphate fell. You know why? Because it was the biggest threat to Europe when it was in its strongest position. Who wouldn't want to take it down if they want the power for themselves?

If there is an Islamic State, the first thing any superpower would want to do is get rid of it, since that unites the Muslims. And if that happens - it is a threat to the other superpower, therefore getting rid of its build up is much more easier than to oppose a well established one.



Regards.

 

[MTAFFI]

If you've studied the history of turkey, you'll see how the Islamic Caliphate fell. You know why? Because it was the biggest threat to Europe when it was in its strongest position. Who wouldn't want to take it down if they want the power for themselves?

If there is an Islamic State, the first thing any superpower would want to do is get rid of it, since that unites the Muslims. And if that happens - it is a threat to the other superpower, therefore getting rid of its build up is much more easier than to oppose a well established one.



Regards.

Why was Turkey a threat to Europe? Why would a superpower want to get rid of an Islamic state, just because it unites Muslims? Do you believe Muslims pose a threat to the rest of the world, and if Muslims are united in Turkey do you really think turkey would ever be a threat to the US?

To be honest muslims not being united is a much bigger "threat" to the world. Think about it, if Muslims were united there would be far less violence than there is today in the middle east. On one hand Muslims could unite and agree that war with the west is not the answer, war with each other is not the answer, and war in general is not the answer. Or on the other hand they could unite and say War with the west is the answer, and at least then the west would have a legitimate target, all Muslims. Either way it would be better for the world if all Muslims united and said they take one stand one way or the other.

 

[- Qatada -]

Why was Turkey a threat to Europe? Why would a superpower want to get rid of an Islamic state, just because it unites Muslims? Do you believe Muslims pose a threat to the rest of the world, and if Muslims are united in Turkey do you really think turkey would ever be a threat to the US?

On the Map, Spain is on one side of Europe, and Turkey is on the other side. And both were under Muslim rule at one time, so if they were to attack from both sides with big armies - they could probably capture all of Europe. I think its known as the Pincer Movement.

So all of Europe could be opened at that time in history. But history is history, but i'm just explaining the info lol.

To be honest muslims not being united is a much bigger "threat" to the world. Think about it, if Muslims were united there would be far less violence than there is today in the middle east. On one hand Muslims could unite and agree that war with the west is not the answer, war with each other is not the answer, and war in general is not the answer. Or on the other hand they could unite and say War with the west is the answer, and at least then the west would have a legitimate target, all Muslims. Either way it would be better for the world if all Muslims united and said they take one stand one way or the other.

That's true, but i feel that if one was to see Islamic History - a third of the world was under Islamic Rule at one time. This was only within 200yrs maybe. And compared to the morals/ethics of the contemporaries, it was really just, and the praise is for Allaah due to that.

So i personally think that if there is already a super power in the world right now, they don't want an opposition. And therefore they would try to get rid of all means which could lead to another super power since that would be a major threat to them.


So anything which will unite the Muslims (over a billion people in the world right now) - this will be a major threat, and therefore it would seem that they would totally dislike it if muslims were to unite under an Islamic Rule.




Regards.

 

[MTAFFI]

On the Map, Spain is on one side of Europe, and Turkey is on the other side. And both were under Muslim rule at one time, so if they were to attack from both sides with big armies - they could probably capture all of Europe. I think its known as the Pincer Movement.

At one time many lands were under different rule, the same could be said of a Christian rule, or a barbarian rule, or a roman rule. This is all history, but I see what you are going for.

That's true, but i feel that if one was to see Islamic History - a third of the world was under Islamic Rule at one time. This was only within 200yrs maybe. And compared to the morals/ethics of the contemporaries, it was really just, and the praise is for Allaah due to that.

But look at how quickly it collapsed

So i personally think that if there is already a super power in the world right now, they don't want an opposition. And therefore they would try to get rid of all means which could lead to another super power since that would be a major threat to them.

Why would a Muslim superpower pose anymore of a threat than the Chinese superpower, or the European superpower?

So anything which will unite the Muslims (over a billion people in the world right now) - this will be a major threat, and therefore it would seem that they would totally dislike it if muslims were to unite under an Islamic Rule.

Regards.

I dont agree with this, and remember if Muslims ever try to force their religion on others (which is what Islamic rule is) then they will pay a heafty price for it. There may be 1 billion Muslims in the world but there are 5 billion non muslims. Many of which come from wealthy power rich nations who would not be forced upon. However hearing all of this from you and seeing what the mindset is, I would hope (being nonmuslim)that any Islamic state be crushed before it became a threat

 

[Amadeus85]

If you've studied the history of turkey, you'll see how the Islamic Caliphate fell. You know why? Because it was the biggest threat to Europe when it was in its strongest position. Who wouldn't want to take it down if they want the power for themselves?





Regards.

Yes you are right Sabillah. In some time Turkey was the biggest threat to Europe.
Turkey occupied- Greece,Serbia,Croatia,Romania,Hungary,Bulgaria,Albania,part of Ukraine.
But i cant agree with you that some "evil" european powers destroyed Turkey. Turkey in the end of 17th and in the whole 18th century was an archaic and disfunctional country, in comparission to dynamic absolute monarchies, like Austria or Russia.

 

[- Qatada -]

At one time many lands were under different rule, the same could be said of a Christian rule, or a barbarian rule, or a roman rule. This is all history, but I see what you are going for.

Agreed.

But look at how quickly it collapsed

It expanded that quick and more within 200yrs, however it remained that way for over 13 centuries. Until the fall of the Ottoman Khilafah.

Why would a Muslim superpower pose anymore of a threat than the Chinese superpower, or the European superpower?

Because it's not just a culture, rather its different cultures/ethnicities etc. uniting under one banner of Islaam of; there is none worthy of worship except God Alone, and Muhammad (peace be upon him) is His servant and final Messenger.

If we look into history - we see that Islaam changed the whole world. And totally finished the oppressive Sassanid Super-Power [of the Persians] and was nearly about to defeat the other oppressive world super power of the Byzantinian Romans.


So the people actually know that it is a major power. Especially those who have seen history.

I dont agree with this, and remember if Muslims ever try to force their religion on others (which is what Islamic rule is) then they will pay a heafty price for it. There may be 1 billion Muslims in the world but there are 5 billion non muslims. Many of which come from wealthy power rich nations who would not be forced upon. However hearing all of this from you and seeing what the mindset is, I would hope (being nonmuslim)that any Islamic state be crushed before it became a threat

I thought we've discussed this with you plenty of times? How many times have i quoted this verse:

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. [Qur'an 2: 256]

​

Islaam was one of the first worldly powers to actually allow people to follow their religion freely. Compare it to the super powers which are praised today i.e. the Byzantinian Romans and the Persian Sassanids, who would actually kill a person if they followed a religion other than their rulers?

When the christians threw their scripture behind their back, thats when they started allowing secularism. Which shows that its not even part of christian beliefs to allow people to practise their religion freely right?


I think i'll link you again to the rights of Non Muslims within an Islamic state;

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/40557-rights-dhimmi-non-muslim-muslim-islamic-state.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/40558-islamic-citizenship-system-rights.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/40559-islamic-politics-forming-islamic-democracy.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/41251-jizya-islam.html
http://www.load-islam.com/indepth.php?topic_id=12


Please don't imply something of which you have no knowledge.


Thanks.

 

[Amadeus85]

That's true, but i feel that if one was to see Islamic History - a third of the world was under Islamic Rule at one time. This was only within 200yrs maybe. And compared to the morals/ethics of the contemporaries, it was really just, and the praise is for Allaah due to that.







Regards.

It was just? So you think that occupied Spaniards,Greeks,Serbs,Croatians,Bulgarians etc etc , were happy under muslim occupation?

 

[- Qatada -]

Yes you are right Sabillah. In some time Turkey was the biggest threat to Europe.
Turkey occupied- Greece,Serbia,Croatia,Romania,Hungary,Bulgaria,Albania,part of Ukraine.
But i cant agree with you that some "evil" european powers destroyed Turkey. Turkey in the end of 17th and in the whole 18th century was an archaic and disfunctional country, in comparission to dynamic absolute monarchies, like Austria or Russia.

I agree that near the end of the Turkish Khilafah there was alot of erm.. chaos? And less application of the true Islamic law. We know that when justice isn't applied within a nation - then Allaah removes it from them.


As a famous scholar - Ibn ul Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

The rulers are a reflection of their people - if the people are good and fair, their rulers will be good and just, if the people are corrupt and disloyal - their rulers will be also.



Regards.

 

[- Qatada -]

It was just? So you think that occupied Spaniards,Greeks,Serbs,Croatians,Bulgarians etc etc , were happy under muslim occupation?

Do you want to see Islamic History by non muslim authors?


Refer to this link:
http://www.load-islam.com/indepth.php?topic_id=12


Muslim Spain and European Culture
Islam in China
Tolerant and Humane Aspects of Muslim Civilisation
Quotations on Islamic civilization in India
Evidences of Equality in Islamic History



I hope you benefit from them.



Regards.

 

[islamirama]

Yes you are right Sabillah. In some time Turkey was the biggest threat to Europe.
Turkey occupied- Greece,Serbia,Croatia,Romania,Hungary,Bulgaria,Albania,part of Ukraine.
But i cant agree with you that some "evil" european powers destroyed Turkey. Turkey in the end of 17th and in the whole 18th century was an archaic and disfunctional country, in comparission to dynamic absolute monarchies, like Austria or Russia.

Turkey and khilfah were destroyed cuz of a jew called ataturk and the western powersn involvement.

The Lausanne Treaty was signed on 24th July 1924. The British Foreign Secretary, Curzon announced in the House of Commons, "The point at issue is that Turkey has been destroyed and shall never rise again, because we have destroyed her spiritual power: the Khilafah and Islam." The foreign powers continued dividing up the Islamic Lands according to the Sykes-Picot agreement and the Berlin Conference. Unlike the Crusaders of the past, these modern day secular crusaders had no Khilafah to confront them. Within years of the Khilafah's abolition, they were able to extend their colonial hegemony over the resources of the Islamic Lands

http://www.islamicthinkers.com/index/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=524&Itemid=26

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Mustafa Kemal Atatürk: The Enemy of Islam[/FONT]​

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dawaah/message/1148

 

[Amadeus85]

Do you want to see Islamic History by non muslim authors?


Refer to this link:
http://www.load-islam.com/indepth.php?topic_id=12


Muslim Spain and European Culture
Islam in China
Tolerant and Humane Aspects of Muslim Civilisation
Quotations on Islamic civilization in India
Evidences of Equality in Islamic History



I hope you benefit from them.



Regards.

You didnt asnwer to my question. Anyway, you think that if Greeks and Serbs had such wonderful time under muslim occupation, would they make all those uprisings against muslim invadors and occupants?

 

[Amadeus85]

Turkey and khilfah were destroyed cuz of a jew called ataturk and the western powersn involvement.

[/url]

Yes of course, it is all because of jews.Thanks for reminding me :thumbs_up

 

[islamirama]

Yes of course, it is all because of jews.Thanks for reminding me :thumbs_up

i take it you didn't even bother to go read the bio of the ruler....

 

[- Qatada -]

You didnt asnwer to my question. Anyway, you think that if Greeks and Serbs had such wonderful time under muslim occupation, would they make all those uprisings against muslim invadors and occupants?

That can be used both ways, there could be a nation which was extremely just - yet there would be people who would still oppose it out of their own desires or wanting their own power.

So in this discussion - we dont blame Islaam, rather we look at the context of why the people wanted to revolt against the Khilafah.


By the way - i'm not claiming that the Khilafah was just all the time, because i know that one of the reasons why it fell was out of Allaah Almighty's eternal Wisdom, since we know that a nation falls once it becomes unjust. So that is partly why the Khilafah fell. And Allaah knows best.



Regards.

 

[Amadeus85]

That can be used both ways, there could be a nation which was extremely just - yet there would be people who would still oppose it out of their own desires or wanting their own power.

So in this discussion - we dont blame Islaam, rather we look at the context of why the people wanted to revolt against the Khilafah.


By the way - i'm not claiming that the Khilafah was just all the time, because i know that one of the reasons why it fell was out of Allaah Almighty's eternal Wisdom, since we know that a nation falls once it becomes unjust. So that is partly why the Khilafah fell. And Allaah knows best.



Regards.

Ok so i would ask you like this - do you condemn muslims occupation of Spain,Balkans and Greece? just like you condemn israel occupation of Palestina? :?

 

[- Qatada -]

Ok so i would ask you like this - do you condemn muslims occupation of Spain,Balkans and Greece? just like you condemn israel occupation of Palestina? :?

When Islaam enters a land, it allows the people to live there without oppression. It doesn't drive them out of their homes unjustly either. Nor does it kill its women, seniors and children, priests and rabbis who are worshipping in their places of worship [in the context of war nor its men at times of peace etc.]

Yet the exact opposite is occuring in Palestine right now and therefore i don't accept it.



Regards.