Keep it up Turkey, you know what's best

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:salamext:


Allow it. Think about it - i quote him non muslim authors (so its not biased) and all the facts, and then he thinks he knows it all by simply saying 'Actually thats not true." And then he makes claims that Islaam is anti-science without no proof either.


If he really thinks everything is created/designed 'by chance' then even a 2yr old can tell otherwise. But thats upto him. We'll leave it at that so we don't get bro muezzin impatient. :p
 
Fi_Sabilillah said:
So the people actually know that it is a major power. Especially those who have seen history.
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Yes but look at their most recent history, war and the day of conqueering land and making it your own is over. War is now won by the push of a button, conquering land doesnt really happen anymore. If Muslim wish to unite and have their own land, I dont think it would be a problem, there is plenty of land in the middle east that is probably ready for it right now. Muslims from all over could leave wherever they are to live there and I dont think it would bother anyone. They could live in peace or at war with each other in their own land and live under their own religious law, and it wouldnt bother anyone. But the second that they wish to impose Islamic Law on others is the day the button would be pushed. That is why Islamic land is not a threat to any superpower, in todays world.

Fi_Sabilillah said:
I thought we've discussed this with you plenty of times? How many times have i quoted this verse:

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. [Qur'an 2: 256]

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Islaam was one of the first worldly powers to actually allow people to follow their religion freely. Compare it to the super powers which are praised today i.e. the Byzantinian Romans and the Persian Sassanids, who would actually kill a person if they followed a religion other than their rulers?
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Yes, you can practice your own religion, but you can do that in a secular society as well. You also have freedom of speech along with many others in a secular society that you dont in an Islamic society. Like the right to go to the bar after a long day, the right for a woman to go out in public alone, wearing whatever she wants. There are many examples of things that would be taken away, and these are rights that 5 billion people like and wont give up.

Fi_Sabilillah said:
When the christians threw their scripture behind their back, thats when they started allowing secularism. Which shows that its not even part of christian beliefs to allow people to practise their religion freely right?
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When Christians threw their scripture behind their back was when they stopped conquering other people and stopped forcing their religion on others. History has shown that those who rule with religion have been some of the most brutal rulers in our history.

Fi_Sabilillah said:
I think i'll link you again to the rights of Non Muslims within an Islamic state;

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/40557-rights-dhimmi-non-muslim-muslim-islamic-state.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/40558-islamic-citizenship-system-rights.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/40559-islamic-politics-forming-islamic-democracy.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/41251-jizya-islam.html
http://www.load-islam.com/indepth.php?topic_id=12

Please don't imply something of which you have no knowledge.
Thanks.
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It seems no one has knowledge of an Islamic state, since there isnt one that truly exists according to your links. Show me an Islamic state that functions well and exact. The problem is that it is an Islamic state, so that puts other religions below Islam, it is not acceptable unless everyone is Muslim.
 
MTAFFI said:
When Christians threw their scripture behind their back was when they stopped conquering other people and stopped forcing their religion on others. History has shown that those who rule with religion have been some of the most brutal rulers in our history.
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Christians don't even have a divine law in the same way Muslims do so you can't compare.

It seems no one has knowledge of an Islamic state, since there isnt one that truly exists according to your links. Show me an Islamic state that functions well and exact.
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lol. That is so not true. People have their own reasons for not implementing the Islamic law properly in their lands. It can be anything from $$$ to out side pressure to their own desire etc.

The problem is that it is an Islamic state, so that puts other religions below Islam, it is not acceptable unless everyone is Muslim.
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Did you know that in many secular countries the President/prime minister can only belong to a certain religion? :rollseyes How equal, yeh? Oh, how about the fact that only Christian holidays are recognised as public holidays? Hmmm :mmokay:
 
Malaikah said:
What freedom?! Are you deaf and blind?! Muslim women can't even go to university or work in public offices with out sacrificing their head scarfs!

Is that what you call freedom?!:skeleton:
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freedom to them is freedom from God and slavery to their passions and devils
 
yigiter187 said:
theır only aim was to spread islam
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So... why the Arabs and Albanians want to break free from Ottoman Empire.... I've seen Arabic drama series showing Ottoman cruelty to the Syrians. If Ottoman really want to spread Islam... why until today .. there are Muslims who call the Ottomans as oppressors?


yigiter187 said:
they killed so many turks ın eastern anatolia..turkey offers armenia to open historical arcihves but armenians refuses this ,dou you think why?
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That's why Armenians should recognise that genocide too..
 
and what's wrong with that?
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the problem is that for some countries the word "we're sorry" doesn't do anything, cuz they have been oppressed and occupied by others for decades.
do you think after native americans lost their culture and traditions due to the opression they recieved, you can go back to them now and say "ohh, we're sorry that we have forced you to integrate in our society, we're sorry that you lost your culture, but it's allright we will take off taxes for you", do you think that works? how many many countries have suffered from opression....that the word sorry doesn't work for them. but it seems many countries say "i'm sorry" and they stab u in the back. at least to apologize you have to stop on applying oppresion on other countries. and it's a sad situtation , bc a country like turkey which was a superpower 200 years ago, that people got things from their culture, now have to cry for joining a group like EU....very sad...
 
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vpb said:
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the problem is that for some countries the word "we're sorry" doesn't do anything, cuz they have been oppressed and occupied by others for decades.
do you think after native americans lost their culture and traditions due to the opression they recieved, you can go back to them now and say "ohh, we're sorry that we have forced you to integrate in our society, we're sorry that you lost your culture, but it's allright we will take off taxes for you", do you think that works? how many many countries have suffered from opression....that the word sorry doesn't work for them. but it seems many countries say "i'm sorry" and they stab u in the back. at least to apologize you have to stop on applying oppresion on other countries. and it's a sad situtation , bc a country like turkey which was a superpower 200 years ago, that people got things from their culture, now have to cry for joining a group like EU....very sad...
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So, what is your alternative? Go on making wars and then loosing and again whining about bad bad oppressors?

I think, reaching the hand and saying 'I'm sorry' could be already a step in the right direction. Nobody mentionned, that with these words, everything is forgotten. Nothing should be forgotten, but people can forgive and the upcoming generation could already make changings instead of getting again brainwashed, so that this hatred from both sides can persist.

Time can heal all wounds
 
So, what is your alternative? Go on making wars and then loosing and again whining about bad bad oppressors?
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dude :) i just wrote the whole post which is against the wars, cuz i just explained how people lost cultures, due to opression. :)

I think, reaching the hand and saying 'I'm sorry' could be already a step in the right direction. Nobody mentionned, that with these words, everything is forgotten. Nothing should be forgotten, but people can forgive and the upcoming generation could already make changings instead of getting again brainwashed, so that this hatred from both sides can persist.
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that's what I said, but when you say to someone 'i'm sorry' you should not do it again, and not saying sorry and then do it again. :) please check the history in past 100 years and see who started all the wars that have been going on and the same people come and try to teach us about democracy :) Islam is the first one that applied real democracy, 1400 years ago, were women had rights, animals had rights , black and white people ate, prayed together, building of other faiths were kept , so if people choose they could go, except that had to pay tax as a non muslim .....many and many things that the west has introduced last 100 years. :)
 
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Ruggedtouch said:
Real democracy? So what’s with this dhimmitude thing, then? Would your version of democracy include 1,400 years of offensive jihad that at one point brought Moslem holy warriors™ the shores of Europe?
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Do you know the rights of a 'Dhimmi'?


Rights of Citizens in an Islamic State

Islam protects the rights belonging to the citizens of an Islamic state, whether they are Muslims or non-Muslims.
  • The first is the right to security of life and property. Islam prohibits killing except for that which is done in the due process of law at the hands of a God-fearing court. No government has the right to murder its citizens, openly or secretly, because they oppose its unjust policies and actions or criticize it. Furthermore, Islam confers the right of security of ownership of property.
  • Another right is that of the protection of honor. Under Islamic Law, if one is proved to have said things that could have damaged the reputation and honor of the plaintiff, the accused is declared guilty of defamation — regardless of whether or not the plaintiff is able to prove that he is respectable and honorable in the first place.
  • Citizens of an Islamic state have the right to the sanctity and security of private life. Thus spying on others, reading their mail, tapping their phones, etc., is illegal. Espionage on the life of the individual cannot be justified on moral grounds. In fact, when a government does begin to spy on its own people, the common citizens cannot speak freely even in their own homes, and society begins to suffer from a state of general distrust and suspicion — which in turn leads to more dissatisfaction and eventually unrest.
  • No citizen can be imprisoned unless his guilt has been proven in an open court in which he has the opportunity to defend himself.
  • Citizens have the God-given right to protest against the government’s tyranny, whether that abuse is directed against individuals, groups, or the entire population.
Citizens have absolute and complete equality in the eyes of the law regardless of their religion
  • Islam grants the right of freedom of thought and expression on the condition that it should be used to propagate virtue and truth, not to spread evil and wickedness. Further, no one has the right to use abusive or offensive language in the name of criticism. In fact, the citizen not only has the right of freedom of expression in order to propagate virtue, but also the duty to propagate virtue and stop the spread of evil.
  • Islam gives people the right to freedom of association and formation of parties or organizations, provided that this right is exercised to spread virtue and righteousness, not to spread evil and mischief.
  • Citizens of an Islamic state have the right to freedom of conscience and conviction. Non-Muslim citizens cannot be forced to accept Islam, and no moral, social, or political pressure can be put on them to make them change their minds.
  • Religious sentiments are to be protected. Discussion and debate on religious matters can be held, but these must be conducted in decency with no abusive language. This applies to followers of all faiths.
  • An individual cannot be arrested or imprisoned for the offenses of others. Every person is responsible for his own acts.
  • Citizens have the right to the basic necessities of life. It is the responsibility of the State to provide the basic necessities for the poor and needy, invalid, orphaned, elderly, unemployed, et cetera. Even a dead person with no guardian or heir has the right to a proper burial by the State.
  • The citizens of an Islamic state have absolute and complete equality in the eyes of the law, regardless of their religion.
  • In an Islamic state, the rulers are not above the law. All officials of the state, whether they are the head or ordinary employees, are equal in the eyes of the law. None can claim immunity. Even an ordinary citizen has the right to forward a claim or file a complaint against the highest executive in the country.
  • Citizens have the right to avoid sin. No government, or administrator, or head of a department can order another person to do wrong. A person who is so ordered has the right to refuse to comply, and this would not be seen as an offense under Islamic Law.
  • Islam grants the right to participate in the affairs of state. Thus every citizen has the right to have a direct say in the affairs of the state or a representative chosen by him and others.
 
It’s clear that you’re referring to the great satan™ when you describe all the as yet un-named wars that have been going on. Please discuss for us all these wars started by the U.S. in the last 100 years.
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I was not talking only about US. I was talking in general.

Real democracy? So what’s with this dhimmitude thing, then? Would your version of democracy include 1,400 years of offensive jihad that at one point brought Moslem holy warriors™ the shores of Europe?
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thx, you just told me you haven't fully understood the concept of jihad, anyways where did u learn that muslims did offensive jihad and brought them to the shores of europe? it seems you have read those fancy history books of people who know nothing about Islam/muslims or they just wanted to make propaganda,
can you tell me if muslims fought jihad to expand? why in Indonesia which has the biggest muslim community has been no war (with muslims), also malysia?? why in Ballkan there are muslims, but in Bulgaria not? (since they came through bulgaria).......it's about how people accepted islam when muslim came to europe, they accepted islam vulnetary, as many many are doing now in UK/US and many other countries :) please try to read from proper sources, if you want to learn about physics, you don't go and ask a biology teacher but you go to a physics teacher, if I bought something and you wanted to ask me how much, you don't go and ask fisabililah but you ask me unless you want to please your self with anti-islamic stories :)
 
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lolllll it's so funny bc you people get ripped off with taxes, and you accuse islamic state for asking non-muslims to pay taxes? lolllll i think one day you're gonna have to pay taxes for sleeping too... lol subhanallah.
 
They ARE from religion, you're just using your previous biases to attack OUR religion. This justice HAS been established in our Islamic History, and authentically documented. And it WILL happen again when Allaah wills. I've quoted you the hadith that we have oppressive rulers today, and no - they don't apply the Shari'a law 100%, and any state which doesn't apply the Islamic law 100% IS NOT an Islamic State.


So you're continuous comparing of the states in the Muslim world today isn't according to Islaam, in fact its the furthest away from it in many ways.
 
Ruggedtouch, when you oppose something you need to have knowledge about it, you can't just say 'no no it doesn't work it doesn't work' and you don't know anything about it, you can't say for a type of food as it tastes bad whenever you haven't taste it. The purpose of the Islamic laws are to provide safety for the community from being denegenerated, don't you see where the community in western countries has gone? no it's no the son that consumes drugs, but it's the mother, the relationship between parents and children is like between 2 business men , all about money. you have gay/lesbian couples you can marry and adobt child, you have murders everywehre, suicide, robbery, drugs all bad things. but it seems that people have lost the sense of already knowing what is good and what is bad, it's like the heorin-addict who doesn't know things that he's doing are bad or good.
 
Ruggedtouch said:
No one is attacking your religion. Why so reactive?

I've identified to you the realities in the world and you take that as an attack on your religion.

It's not my bias that identifies the injustices that moslem nations inflict upon non-moslems.

I wish to open a new Church in the KSA, for example. Can I do so or not?
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I don't need to answer for the rulers of the Muslim world today, and as i've stated many times before - the reason why we are in this state today is because the majority of us have actually turned away from our religion.


Recorded in Abu Dawud Book 37, Number 4284.

Narrated Thawban:

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The people will soon summon one another to attack you as people when eating invite others to share their dish.

Someone asked: Will that be because of our small numbers at that time?
He replied: No, you will be numerous at that time: but you will be scum and rubbish like that carried down by a torrent, and Allah will take fear of you from the breasts of your enemy and last enervation into your hearts.

Someone asked: What is wahn (enervation). Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him):

He replied: Love of the world and dislike of death.


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I don't need to answer your questions regarding the Muslim rulers, since we all will be taken into account for whatever we say or do in this life on the Day of Ressurection, by the One who created us when we were nothing, and i'd rather not say anything evil about them when i have my own mistakes and errors to care about. Allaah will deal with everyone accordingly, and no-one will be dealt with unjustly.



Regards.
 
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