Are morals derived from religion/God??

[- Qatada -]

That's the unfortunate thing about deleting his posts. You may very well be right, but nobody is going to take your word for it, given your less than polite hostility towards him. So with his posts deleted we are all left wondering if they actually were of any value.

His posts weren't even related to the topic of the thread.


Regards.

 

[Pygoscelis]

This is off topic, but...

*Dating

Muslims can't date? Is it all arranged marriages?

 

[Talha777]

Yes.

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

This is off topic, but...



Muslims can't date? Is it all arranged marriages?

lol we can get to know each other, have meetings etc but we must always have a third person present

 

[جوري]

What a silly assumption to make. How could you possibly know that nonhuman animals don't ponder the morality of certain actions? We do it. We're animals. Seems only natural that other animals would also do it, at least to some degree.

human brain

animal brain

The frontal lobes are responsible for “higher” brain functions, such as planning, decision making, and judgment (which are called “executive functions”--

it is clearly more developed in humans than animals-- I can go into more details of neuroanatomy if you'd like to see in which ways the human brain is more developed than in animals-- including areas in which "morality" is more developed and would be more of an abstract thought in humans than just instinctual (concrete) in animals-- from hippocampus to amygdala to frontal lobe-- and what sort of animal behavior is exhibited when one of such areas is lesioned for instance Klüver-Bucy Syndrome Bilateral destruction of the amygdaloid body and inferior temporal cortex in which men end up displaying behavior observed in monkeys. We can sit here and use romanticized terms of the morality of animals, but it wouldn't cut mustard... You are certainly welcome to run your own random double blinded study with a group of animals and humans and prove common sense wrong but until such a time you are free to believe what you wish.. and we are free to write of what we know!

peace!

 

[جوري]

That's the unfortunate thing about deleting his posts. You may very well be right, but nobody is going to take your word for it, given your less than polite hostility towards him. So with his posts deleted we are all left wondering if they actually were of any value.

I didn't delete his posts... obviously a moderator read them and found them unsuitable.. he may very well share his sources with you privately and you are welcome to theorize what you will...
I had a post of mine removed the other day, which was in Arabic and about the prophet, it was removed on the account that the information in it were conjectural and not factual.. I didn't whine about it. I apologized to the mod and moved on with my life... I didn't throw a temper tantrum and seek validation from other members over how my article was removed.

Just for the record-- how do you exactly expect us to meet with open hostility? with open arms and roses? The same expectations your president was hoping for when the American army sets foot on Iraqi soil?

 

[Pygoscelis]

Just for the record-- how do you exactly expect us to meet with open hostility? with open arms and roses? The same expectations your president was hoping for when the American army sets foot on Iraqi soil?

Thats another unfortunate thing about his posts being deleted. We are left with only a record of your hostility and mudslinging and personal attacks, not his. If he said anything impolite it has been removed and I never saw it.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Interesting that you don't put any other mammalian brains up there besides the human.

it is clearly more developed in humans than animals-- I can go into more details of neuroanatomy if you'd like to see in which ways the human brain is more developed than in animals-- including areas in which "morality" is more developed and would be more of an abstract thought in humans than just instinctual (concrete) in animals-- from hippocampus to amygdala to frontal lobe-- and what sort of animal behavior is exhibited when one of such areas is lesioned for instance Klüver-Bucy Syndrome Bilateral destruction of the amygdaloid body and inferior temporal cortex in which men end up displaying behavior observed in monkeys. We can sit here and use romanticized terms of the morality of animals, but it wouldn't cut mustard... You are certainly welcome to run your own random double blinded study with a group of animals and humans and prove common sense wrong but until such a time you are free to believe what you wish.. and we are free to write of what we know!

Yet you don't know. Your claim doesn't follow from your observations nor from your argument.

Showing that humans have MORE of the stuff that we believe to be required to have thought doesn't show that animals don't have the stuff required to have thought. It doesn't show that all animal behaviour is instinctive, which was your bold claim.

The opposite would seem to follow. If we've come to believe that the prefrontal cortex in human beings is the seat of thought and self awareness in human beings, then it wouldn't be too crazy to suggest tha the frefrontal cortex in monkeys is the seat of thought and self awareness in monkeys. They do have one you know. It may be less developed, but it is there.

Behaviour in many nonhuman animal species further suggests that they are self aware and thinking beings. Many further display empathy, self interest and socialization, three major factors in human morality.

By the way, I am more learned on neuropsychology than you may suspect. I know that if you cut up parts of the brain behaviour will change, including attitude and moral sense. I've even cut up live rat brains in a lab myself (something I regret). And I agree that it is iteresting how chemicals in the brain can account for so much of human behavior. Almost makes you wonder about the notions of the soul and free will.

 

[جوري]

Thats another unfortunate thing about his posts being deleted. We are left with only a record of your hostility and mudslinging and personal attacks, not his. If he said anything impolite it has been removed and I never saw it.

What would you like me to do about that? To every action there is a reaction... I'd not be reacting to blank... Again inappropriate posts will be removed by a mod not my person.. same as if you were to post photos of jenna jameson .. Such are the forums rules.. if you can't comply with forum rules, no sense in posting here? There are other forums to foster a hateful anything against Muslims... people come here to learn about Islam, not to teach us what Islam is from their own opinion!

 

[Pygoscelis]

jenna jameson

Is that wife of Spiderman's boss?

people come here to learn about Islam, not to teach us what Islam is from their own opinion!

Actually this is one section of the board that that may not be true of. This is comparative religion section. People don't come here to learn about Islam. There are other sections for that. They come here to compare and contrast it and other religions to one another, that would include various opinions on Islam.

 

[Trumble]

Actually this is one section of the board that that may not be true of. This is comparative religion section. People don't come here to learn about Islam. There are other sections for that. They come here to compare and contrast it and other religions to one another, that would include various opinions on Islam.

I always thought the sub-heading, "Discussions about other religions in existence" was more accurate than 'comparative religion'. 'Comparative religion' requires a degree of tolerance for other beliefs and a genuine desire to understand them that is usually conspicuous by its absence.

 

[جوري]

Yet you don't know. Your claim doesn't follow from your observations nor from your argument.

Showing that humans have MORE of the stuff that we believe to be required to have thought doesn't show that animals don't have the stuff required to have thought. It doesn't show that all animal behaviour is instinctive, which was your bold claim.

The opposite would seem to follow. If we've come to believe that the prefrontal cortex in human beings is the seat of thought and self awareness in human beings, then it wouldn't be too crazy to suggest tha the frefrontal cortex in monkeys is the seat of thought and self awareness in monkeys. They do have one you know. It may be less developed, but it is there.

Behaviour in many nonhuman animal species further suggests that they are self aware and thinking beings. Many further display empathy, self interest and socialization, three major factors in human morality.

By the way, I am more learned on neuropsychology than you may suspect. I know that if you cut up parts of the brain behaviour will change, including attitude and moral sense. I've even cut up live rat brains in a lab myself (something I regret). And I agree that it is iteresting how chemicals in the brain can account for so much of human behavior. Almost makes you wonder about the notions of the soul and free will.

With all the research done of the brain we still know a very minuscule amount even less so when it comes to animals... we can base our opinion on observation... I don't see animals holding trials for the murder of one of their group... This isn't to belittle your research... In fact I am astounded that you know of Neurochemical and Electrophysiological Pathways what happens if one is lesioned or enhanced and yet make the claim that animal behavior is based on morality ...

The more developed the brain the higher the functions.... you can see just from neglect how one brain develops properly while the other is stultified... and am sure if you have done any psychological research on brain development as a another field of interest you can obviously observe see that concrete thought is more prevalent in children than in adults... That is when we speak of people... If I were to contrast to animals it would be obvious that even a child's brain is more developed than that of any animal even the smartest of them. If you have done research and comparative analysis then you might want to publish for us your finding... I am always open for new research even if not in my field of interest...

peace!

 

[Pygoscelis]

If I were to contrast to animals it would be obvious that even a child's brain is more developed than that of any animal even the smartest of them.

That still doesn't suggest animals don't think. Nevermind rats. Even pigeons have shown problem solving skills. Is it pure instinct? I don't think so, but maybe it is. There is no real way to know for sure, without being one of them.

 

[جوري]

Is that wife of Spiderman's boss?.

Something like that I suppose!

Actually this is one section of the board that that may not be true of. This is comparative religion section. People don't come here to learn about Islam. There are other sections for that. They come here to compare and contrast it and other religions to one another, that would include various opinions on Islam.

Indeed... whichever way you slice it-- Atheists don't have a religion to compare? feel free to prove me wrong.. further is has to do with the presentation... if you are going to purposefully add a faulty article to assert your point (a hateful one just for the record), than question-- does this article have any validity,--historically speaking, can you bring me other sources that discuss this period of history; then don't be surprised if the posts are removed, or that people aren't welcoming you with a marching band or open arms.....

peace!

 

[جوري]

That still doesn't suggest animals don't think. Nevermind rats. Even pigeons have shown problem solving skills. Is it pure instinct? I don't think so, but maybe it is. There is no real way to know for sure, without being one of them.

Who said anything about thoughts? I am speaking of morality... morality is a higher function!

peace!

 

[Pygoscelis]

I always thought the sub-heading, "Discussions about other religions in existence" was more accurate than 'comparative religion'. 'Comparative religion' requires a degree of tolerance for other beliefs and a genuine desire to understand them that is usually conspicuous by its absence.

Indeed.

Too often threads in this section become "debates" where people push for their view, rather than discuss their view. And as we've seen in this thread, it often devolves into something less than polite. But you know what they say about religion, politics, and civil conversation

 

[Pygoscelis]

Who said anything about thoughts? I am speaking of morality... morality is a higher function!

peace!

You called animal behaviour instinctual. What other than thought based would you call it if it isn't instinctual?

I'm not sure what you mean by a "higher function".

I don't think its any more complicated than other interplays of nature and nurture, if that is what you mean. It is usually pretty easy to explain why something is viewed as good or bad.

Do you hold the view that opinions on morality are "higher" (whatever that means) than other learned opinions and instincts?

 

[جوري]

You called animal behaviour instinctual. What other than thought based would you call it if it isn't instinctual?

I'm not sure what you mean by a "higher function".

I don't think its any more complicated than other interplays of nature and nurture, if that is what you mean. It is usually pretty easy to explain why something is viewed as good or bad.

Do you hold the view that opinions on morality are "higher" (whatever that means) than other learned opinions and instincts?

in some aspects YES... we can get into this some time later this evening as I need to run... I'd be interested however, in learning more about your research with rat brains!


peace!

 

[Pygoscelis]

I'd be interested however, in learning more about your research with rat brains!

I worked as a lab assistant during my undergrad (hons bsc in psych) prior to leaving that behind and attending law school. I mostly studied social and cognitive psychology, and my own research was mostly in that direction, but I did lab work for a professor who was studying the rat brain and its interplay with psychoactive drugs. Yes, I not only chopped up the brains of the poor critters, but also got them stoned out of their little minds. Later, while in law school I had 3 pet rats, sort of as penance.

 

[ranma1/2]

Who said anything about thoughts? I am speaking of morality... morality is a higher function!

peace!

evidence?