Does the Bible need a defense?

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re: cooloonka
jesus god holy spirit
ok what is unholy spirit
you may satan
who created satan you have to say god
so it is god who creates holy and unholy spirits
therefore spirits are created things and no created thing can be the uncreated creator
 
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Christians,


A'uzubillahi minas shaitan Ar-Rajim
I seek the protection of God, against Satan the Rejected

Kind words and forgiving of faults are better than Sadaqah (CHARITY) followed by injury. And Allah is Rich (Free of all wants) and He is Most-Forbearing. (Quran, Suraah Al-Baqarah 2:263)

And (remember) when We took a covenant from the Children of Israel, (saying): Worship none but Allah (Alone) and be dutiful and good to parents, and to kindred, and to orphans and Al-Masakin (the poor) (Quran, Suraah Al-Baqarah 2:83)

They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin good and forbid evil; and they hasten in (all) good works; and they are among the righteous. (Quran, Suraah Al-Imran 3:114)

O you who believe! Take care of your ownselves, [do righteous deeds, fear Allah much (abstain from all kinds of sins and evil deeds which He has forbidden) and love Allah much (perform all kinds of good deeds which He has ordained)]. If you follow the right guidance and ENJOIN what is right (the good, Islamic Monotheism and all that Islam orders one to do) and forbid what is wrong (polytheism, disbelief and all that Islam has forbidden) no hurt can come to you from those who are in error. The return of you all is to Allah, then He will inform you about (all) that which you used to do. (Quran, Suraah Al-Ma'idah 5:105)
Know the teaching of Islam and the true Muslims by their fruits of labor. By the fruits of their labor, this is what Jesus commanded you to do, is it not?
 
Does the Bible need a defense?

I think that is still the question that we are to be addressing in this thread -- though one would never guess that based on the last few pages.

SO, in what is likely going to be a vain attempt to get back on topic.....



No. The Bible needs no defense. As God's revelation of himself to humanity, it is not dependent on human actions in any way. It is what it is, and humanity's willingness or lack thereof to accept it does not in any way add or detract from it.

Though the Bible should come under attack and though the whole world should reject it and walk away from the truth of its teachings, it would not do any damage to the Bible. And though the whole world accept it and voluntarily submit to its authority as a source of faith and practice, it would not make the Bible anything else than what it already is. No, the Bible needs no defense any more than God needs a defense.
 
alapiana1
If there are errors in any of His [Jesus'] teachings, then Christianity would be a hoax.


However, I do not believe his teachings were a Hoax, I believe that what is presented [in the Bible] as his teachings is a hoax.

This becomes a question about reliability of the documents.
1) Do the copies that we have available to be read today accurately reflect the text of the original manuscripts from which they were derived?
2) Do those original manuscripts in reporting what Jesus said and did do so accurately?
3) Did those original manuscripts report what needed to be reported, or did the authors (even if accurately recording) present a picture of Jesus so skewed by their prefences that it doesn't accurately portray the real person or message of Jesus?


I think the answer to all three questions is that the received record can be trusted.

Now of course there are those who would disagree with that statement. They do so either out of doubt and skepticism or because they already believe something contrary to what is in the Bible record and the human mind will not allow itself to hold two contradicting beliefs at the same time.

There is no answer for the person who has another previously assumed belief system. They believe what they believe, and it is not my intention to go around attacking other's beliefs on this forum. I will defend my own, but I will not attack anothers.

For the skeptic, one must ask the skeptic to examine the source of his/her skepticism. If one is genuinely searching and has not found answers, then one would presuppose an openness to considering the possibiltiy that the Bible is indeed an accurate record. If, on the other hand, one presupposes that it is an inaccurate record and needs to be proven true -- it might be that one is not open, but has simply made the position of skepticism one's basic belief system.

Of course, the true doubter is indeed looking for "proof", but is also willing to accept proofs rather than rejecting all such offerings. I find it amazing how little we doubt the integrity of much of ancient literature. Who doubts the authenticity of Homer's Iliad or Julius Caesar's Gallic Wars? Yet compare them with the New Testament.

For the New Testament the evidence is overwhelming. There are 5,366 manuscripts to compare and draw information from, and some of these date from the second or third centuries. To put that in perspective, there are only 643 copies of Homer's Iliad, and that is the most famous book of ancient Greece! No one doubts the existence of Caesar's Gallic Wars, but we have only 10 copies of it and the earliest of those was made 1000 years after it was written. To have such an abudance of copies of the New Testament, the earliest from dates within 70 years after their writing, is amazing. Indeed the New Testament is the most well-preserved and authenticated of all ancient Greek manuscripts ever to have been written.

As for the Hebrew Old Testament, the discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls in the mid 1900s showed how well its text had been maintained. Scholars were able to make comparison between the 800 CE Masoretic text used by Jews today and compare it with the 200 BCE texts found written on the scrolls and the differences were primarily in the form of changes in word spellings.

To date, where people have doubted the historicity of the Bible and archaeology has been able to make a definitive statement, the facts of the Bible have proven to be true.
 
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Does the Bible need a defense?

I think that is still the question that we are to be addressing in this thread -- though one would never guess that based on the last few pages.

SO, in what is likely going to be a vain attempt to get back on topic.....



No. The Bible needs no defense. As God's revelation of himself to humanity, it is not dependent on human actions in any way. It is what it is, and humanity's willingness or lack thereof to accept it does not in any way add or detract from it.

Though the Bible should come under attack and though the whole world should reject it and walk away from the truth of its teachings, it would not do any damage to the Bible. And though the whole world accept it and voluntarily submit to its authority as a source of faith and practice, it would not make the Bible anything else than what it already is. No, the Bible needs no defense any more than God needs a defense.

does bible needs defense

is tale of jesus part of bible if it is then first denfend your jesus
if you can save jesus the false god then you can save your false bible too
 
Thank You for bringing this thread back on topic. We did manage to stray far from the original question. I believe you did bring up three very valid questions are are the Key to answering the topic question


This becomes a question about reliability of the documents.


1) Do the copies that we have available to be read today accurately reflect the text of the original manuscripts from which they were derived?

2) Do those original manuscripts in reporting what Jesus said and did do so accurately?

3) Did those original manuscripts report what needed to be reported, or did the authors (even if accurately recording) present a picture of Jesus so skewed by their prefences that it doesn't accurately portray the real person or message of Jesus?

In my opinion this is the main question, in regards to the NT. I believe that here is a case of selection based to support a desired end. What I find interesting is the number of books that were rejected as sources. They were also written in the same era and by people with no less credibility than the authors of the accepted Manuscripts.

What eventually became today's NT did not take form until the "Council of Trent" 1545-1563 The Modern KJV and Protetent versions did not come about until later.

The canon of the Bible was solemnly defined and made dogmatic by the Fourth Session of the Ecumenical Council of Trent of the Catholic Church held in northern Italy 1545-1563 A.D. by the Decree "De Canonicis Scripturis" on April 8th, 1546. Pope Pius IV formally confirmed all of its decrees in 1564 A.D. This put the canonicity of the whole Traditional Bible (LV) beyond the permissibility of doubt on the part of Catholics. The books of the canon were listed individually and agreed with the earlier listing already infallibly taught (for about 1000 years prior to the Council of Trent) by the Ordinary Magisterium of the Catholic Church.

Source: http://www.catholicevangelism.org/h-canon1.shtml


The final result is a form of Christianity that was not what the Early Christians believed and only the material which supports the findings of the Council of Trent and later have been preserved properly and even those can be questionable as they are only found in the Vatican Achieves.
 
What eventually became today's NT did not take form until the "Council of Trent" 1545-1563 The Modern KJV and Protetent versions did not come about until later.



Source: http://www.catholicevangelism.org/h-canon1.shtml


The final result is a form of Christianity that was not what the Early Christians believed and only the material which supports the findings of the Council of Trent and later have been preserved properly and even those can be questionable as they are only found in the Vatican Achieves.

Despite your Catholic background, Woodrow, I think you are misunderstanding what the Council of Trent did. Realize this is 100 years after Guttenburg is printing the Bible for the masses. The Council was basically an affirmation of what had been decided more than 1000 years before.

There are copies of ancient New Testaments in the British Museum, in Paris, and in Cairo that date from shortly after the time of Constantine. These Bibles have the same books in them that modern day Bibles do. This understanding of what is and isn't the New Testament is centuries older than Trent and is far more than just what is preserved in the Vatican Archives.
 
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re: cooloonka
jesus god holy spirit
ok what is unholy spirit
you may satan
who created satan you have to say god
so it is god who creates holy and unholy spirits
therefore spirits are created things and no created thing can be the uncreated creator
With all due respect, what is your point? Yes, God did create angels which are spirit beings. Are you trying to say that because God is a Spirit, He created himself?:?
 
does bible needs defense

is tale of jesus part of bible if it is then first denfend your jesus
if you can save jesus the false god then you can save your false bible too


I doubt if Jesus needs some sort of defense? Either he is:
1) dead and gone
2) alive and well


In either case he needs no defense from me or anyone else. What I say or do not say in defense of him or what another says or does not say in attacking him isn't going to change the reality of who, what and where Jesus is.


Or are you suggesting that one defend my view of who Jesus is? That is a very worthy topic. It just does not happen to be the topic of this thread.
 
Actually we as muslims need to defend Esa (Jesus) a.s more than christians do and from christians also, we need to defend him for the incorrect grade he gets from people.

Sahih Bukhari , Volume 4, Book 55, Number 654:

Narrated 'Umar:

I heard the Prophet saying, "Do not exaggerate in praising me as the Christians praised the son of Mary, for I am only a Slave. So, call me the Slave of Allah and His Apostle."
 
For the New Testament the evidence is overwhelming. There are 5,366 manuscripts to compare and draw information from, and some of these date from the second or third centuries. To put that in perspective, there are only 643 copies of Homer's Iliad, and that is the most famous book of ancient Greece! No one doubts the existence of Caesar's Gallic Wars, but we have only 10 copies of it and the earliest of those was made 1000 years after it was written. To have such an abudance of copies of the New Testament from dates within 70 years after their writing is amazing.

I prematurely had to stop you there, I was going to bring forth various points one being the dating of these 5,000 manuscripts, what you wrote, To have such an abudance of copies of the New Testament from dates within 70 years after their writing is amazing. I find this statement abit confusing, someone who had not read on this would have thought you'd mean that all 5.000 and so forth were written within that, rather, what we do have is less than 500 within the first 900 years right or wrong?

And what is interesting is the earliest is dated about 125-150? And is fragmentary, it is like this size:

johnpap-1.jpg


Indeed the New Testament is the most well-preserved and authenticated of all ancient Greek manuscripts ever to have been written.

What you also fail to see is that all the manuscript evidence could ever ever show is what was first written by the authors of the 4 Gospels, but this is of itself not enough, since the Gospels now testify to changes made by the authors themselves to make Jesus look better as time went on, we find in the Gospel of Mark a Jesus which is then made to look more Lord like in Matthew which scholars hold to be written later, so as it went on the author of Matthew made changes to the same stories, this is a shattering blow to the reliability of these unknown authors. So even if we had the originals, we would then have to ask;

1. Did the authors convey truly what they heard sincerily and

2. If they done it sincerly how do we know they were not sincerly wrong and got it from the many oral traditions running around at the time.

As for the Hebrew Old Testament, the discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls in the mid 1900s showed how well its text had been maintained. Scholars were able to make comparison between the 800 CE Masoretic text used by Jews today and compare it with the 200 BCE texts found written on the scrolls and the differences were primarily in the form of changes in word spellings.

As for the Dead Sea scrolls I am currently trying to read up on these findings, but what I have read, maybe you can clarify is that between the Masoretic Hebrew text and the Samaritan Pentateuch and the Septuagint there are 6000 discrepancies, i.e. The Samaritan Pentateuch and the Septaugint agreed against the Masoretic Hebrew text.

Regards,

Eesa

EDIT: As for the Archeology, is there not a statement that Jesus was baptised at betheny beyond the jordan but people tried to change it to bethebara since betheny is apparently incorrect?

King James Version (KJV)
28These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.

New International Version (NIV)
28This all happened at Bethany on the other side of the Jordan, where John was baptizing.

21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
28These things were done in Bethabara beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing.

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
28These things came to pass in Bethabara, beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing,

New Living Translation (NLT)
28 This encounter took place in Bethany, an area east of the Jordan River, where John was baptizing.
 
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I prematurely had to stop you there, I was going to bring forth various points one being the dating of these 5,000 manuscripts, what you wrote, To have such an abudance of copies of the New Testament from dates within 70 years after their writing is amazing. I find this statement abit confusing, someone who had not read on this would have thought you'd mean that all 5.000 and so forth were written within that, rather, what we do have is less than 500 within the first 900 years right or wrong?

And what is interesting is the earliest is dated about 125-150? And is fragmentary, it is like this size:

johnpap-1.jpg

Yes, the very, very earliest are fragemtary pieces of papyri. There are about 75 papyri such as this. I mistakenly left out the word "some" in the sentence you "prematurely" stopped at. It is a significant omission, and changes how one might read the line. It was accidental, and I have gone back to correct my mistake. And the apparent size of that particular fragment will very with your computer monitor. I understand its actual size to be about that of a postage stamp. If it is the one I think it is that is a fragment of a papyrus codex containing John 18:31-33, 37 ff now in the John Rylands University Library, Manchester, England, dated on palaeographical grounds around 130 AD.


The Chester Beatty Biblical Papyri consist of paortions of eleven papyrus codices, three of which contain most of the New Testament writings. One of these contain the four Gospels along with Acts, belongs to the first half of the third century (200-250 AD). And, in addition to these scriptures themselves, we have them quoted extensively in the writings of the early church fathers, showing that written
scriptures existed for them to use in the first half of the second century, and giving us samples of that writing consistent with what we still have today.

What you also fail to see is that all the manuscript evidence could ever ever show is what was first written by the authors of the 4 Gospels, but this is of itself not enough, since the Gospels now testify to changes made by the authors themselves to make Jesus look better as time went on, we find in the Gospel of Mark a Jesus which is then made to look more Lord like in Matthew which scholars hold to be written later, so as it went on the author of Matthew made changes to the same stories, this is a shattering blow to the reliability of these unknown authors. So even if we had the originals, we would then have to ask;

1. Did the authors convey truly what they heard sincerily and

2. If they done it sincerly how do we know they were not sincerly wrong and got it from the many oral traditions running around at the time.
I don't fail to see this at all. I listed those as questions that need to be addressed in my own post in speaking of the reliability of the documents.




As for the Dead Sea scrolls I am currently trying to read up on these findings, but what I have read, maybe you can clarify is that between the Masoretic Hebrew text and the Samaritan Pentateuch and the Septuagint there are 6000 discrepancies, i.e. The Samaritan Pentateuch and the Septaugint agreed against the Masoretic Hebrew text.

Regards,

Eesa

I can't give you a number. The largest figure I have come across is 5% discrepancies with the vast majority of those being spellings. Given that the dead sea scrolls are from a community not in line with the Masoretic text, this means that we have to go even farther back than 1000 years to find a common ancestor for them, making such similarity after more than an eon of hand copying truly an amazing degree of accuracy. (Go ahead, I've set you up for a comment on the pefection of the Qur'an after 1400 years. :) )
 
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Hi All:

For completion, I thought that I should address the earlier assertion that Christianity borrowed some aspects of Mithraism. The recorded historical evidence would support the argument that Mithraism borrowed from the many copies of New Testament Biblical manuscripts around at the time.

Regards,
Grenville
 
With all due respect, what is your point? Yes, God did create angels which are spirit beings. Are you trying to say that because God is a Spirit, He created himself?:?
i did not say god is spirit i said spirit or soul is creation of god it is simple
yet i know simple things hard to grasp for learned they want complex they talk tons what weigh less then a tear drop in poga's eyebrow
if you like talking so much why don't you meet Mrs Be Aql Khan Usta visit her SWEETSWORDS at www.poetrypoem.com/poga you will meet your match
 
I doubt if Jesus needs some sort of defense? Either he is:
1) dead and gone
2) alive and well


In either case he needs no defense from me or anyone else. What I say or do not say in defense of him or what another says or does not say in attacking him isn't going to change the reality of who, what and where Jesus is.


Or are you suggesting that one defend my view of who Jesus is? That is a very worthy topic. It just does not happen to be the topic of this thread.
i agree with vpb we muslim we will defend honor of our prophets may it be eesha musha krisna or MUHAMMAD PEACE BE UPON THEM ALL we will unveil your lie's and hold you accountable for your ignorance
 
The Chester Beatty Biblical Papyri consist of paortions of eleven papyrus codices, three of which contain most of the New Testament writings. One of these contain the four Gospels along with Acts, belongs to the first half of the third century (200-250 AD). And, in addition to these scriptures themselves, we have them quoted extensively in the writings of the early church fathers, showing that written scriptures existed for them to use in the first half of the second century, and giving us samples of that writing consistent with what we still have today.

Am still reading on the early fathers, but I have heard such statements before.

I don't fail to see this at all. I listed those as questions that need to be addressed in my own post in speaking of the reliability of the documents.

This becomes a question about reliability of the documents.
1) Do the copies that we have available to be read today accurately reflect the text of the original manuscripts from which they were derived?
2) Do those original manuscripts in reporting what Jesus said and did do so accurately?
3) Did those original manuscripts report what needed to be reported, or did the authors (even if accurately recording) present a picture of Jesus so skewed by their prefences that it doesn't accurately portray the real person or message of Jesus?


I think the answer to all three questions is that the received record can be trusted.

I fail to see how then such a certainty would be concluded.
 
i agree with vpb we muslim we will defend honor of our prophets may it be eesha musha krisna or MUHAMMAD PEACE BE UPON THEM ALL we will unveil your lie's and hold you accountable for your ignorance
Greetings

Only people I know who regard hindu god krishna as a prophet of Islam are ahmadis. The Muslims have no clue to the origins of hindu mythology.

Ma'asalaama

Edit:
Krishna is a deity worshipped across many traditions of Hinduism. He is usually depicted as a young cowherd boy

Edit 2:

This post is not off topic because it is a refutation to Ahmadi misinformation in an earlier post!
 
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question for poga. if your logic is that the spirits are all created by God therefore the holy spirit is a creation seperate from God...then what/who created God?
 
poga said:
we muslim..........will unveil your lie's and hold you accountable for your ignorance


I don't know if english is your first language but this sounds like the Gestapo talking to a prisoner.

This style by Muslim posters is common on this forum and I wonder why it is allowed.
 
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
This becomes a question about reliability of the documents.
1) Do the copies that we have available to be read today accurately reflect the text of the original manuscripts from which they were derived?
2) Do those original manuscripts in reporting what Jesus said and did do so accurately?
3) Did those original manuscripts report what needed to be reported, or did the authors (even if accurately recording) present a picture of Jesus so skewed by their prefences that it doesn't accurately portray the real person or message of Jesus?


I think the answer to all three questions is that the received record can be trusted.




I fail to see how then such a certainty would be concluded.

Well, I have already testified as to why I trust the existant documents to accurately reflect the original documents.


Why do I think that the original documents accurately report what Jesus said and did?

Note: I said, I think they do. I can't prove they do. It would probably be more correct to say, I think that we can show that they reflect what the writers genuinely believed to be true. (They of course could have gotten it wrong, and misheard or misunderstood and then misreported.) However, among the New Testament authors at least, the general message is consistant so that one would have to assume that all of the writers were similiarly misinformed.

The Bible didn't just appear on the shelf one day. What we have is a living document. The first pieces were letters written by Paul to the churches he helped to found. These were kept by people who knew Paul, his message and his character.

Later the gospels began to appear. But again, they already had a background that they could be checked against. The purpose of the gospels was not to provide some new message, but to preserve the oral proclamation of the Good News that was already a part of the church's life. A gospel that would have told a different story than that already known would not have been received. Indeed, we even see that this is exactly what happened with some gospels that are considered false or fakes. The existence of this other writings that the early church rejected tell us that there was a standard already in existence. Those who knew and had been with Jesus were still alive when the gospels were written. They served as a check and balance to the veracity of what was written.


Do the gospels tell the right story? Or is there another story that is left untold? Well, undoubtedly the gospels do tell a story skewed with a purpose. John as much confesses that he edited what he did and did not include with a particular purpose in mind in his writing. I don't think this is a bad thing. They had a message. Where as Muslims think that the Gospels out to be a record about what Jesus had to say about God, that misses the point that such a story would not be good news. It would just be knowledge. Jesus came for a completely different purpose.

Though he could speak for God, that was not his primary reason in coming. Those who believe it to be true, are basing thair interpretation of the purpose of Jesus' ministry on a book that was not written by anyone who knew Jesus. Or who even had 2nd or 3rd hand knowledge of Jesus. Those who wrote the gospels knew the purpose of Jesus' life was not to be a messenger, but a savior, and so they elected to tell that story. What he did was more important than what he said. And that message comes through clearly in the New Testament. That fact is behind every bood, by every author. And that unified testimony stands starkly against any other source that by itself purports to tell a different story.
 

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